KG and Pierce to Nets?

[NovU]

Here's a nice article skewering anyone (including Bill Simmons) who tries to make the argument that Wilt's teammates were of the same caliber as Russell's (which is asinine stance anyway unless you want to compare playing with over the hill guys or rookies for a part of a season to playing with someone in their prime for 5 or 6 seasons)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229

here's some more pertinent analysis

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3543

[Sauru]

On a side note, this entire 'pressure' talk is stupid. Only reason it exists for LBJ or Wilt is because of the teams they were drafted by and because they wanted to win. Look at general perception on Wilt, how much of a loser he was and how Bill was the true winner of the era. Silly Celtics and Lakers fans talking and acting all righteous how their stars didn't fold to the pressures when it's much easier to be Bill/Kobe surrounded by great players than Wilt/LeBron with bunch of nobody & has-beens while playing for a much less attractive team/venue.

Like Kobe didn't want out... now hear me shaking my head SMH.

imagine if jordan just said fuck it and joined the pistons. instead though he said "fuck you i am better and will win this shit right here".

the pressure talk in not stupid, its a real thing. you can watch lebron at the end of games and tell he does not like it, he cannot handle it. his talent is worlds better than most players who have ever played the game but in the last minute of a game he dont even rank

[NovU]

"fuck you i am better and will win this shit right here".

the pressure talk

you can watch lebron at the end of games and tell he does not like it

he cannot handle it.

I'm one of those people who just laughs and not absorb when Skip Bayless and Steph A Smith constantly feeds people with BS.

[Andrew]

Here's a nice article skewering anyone (including Bill Simmons) who tries to make the argument that Wilt's teammates were of the same caliber as Russell's (which is asinine stance anyway unless you want to compare playing with over the hill guys or rookies for a part of a season to playing with someone in their prime for 5 or 6 seasons)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229

here's some more pertinent analysis

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3543

That doesn't exactly disprove or "skewer" Bill Simmons' take. By the closing paragraph's own admission, the method they used in the first article is "far from scientific" and win shares are neither the be-all, end-all, nor 100% definitive, so the second article isn't incontestable either. Of course, whether or not Wilt's supporting cast was ever truly equal to or better than Russell's may still be debated and disproven, despite what Bill Simmons asserted, but the notion that Wilt only played with nobodies and has-beens in small markets - as you put it - is not up for debate. It's 100% false, given some of the teammates he did play with and the cities he played in.

Like I said though, that's not the reason people say that Wilt couldn't handle the pressure. Again, Hall of Famers who played against Wilt have recounted how he shrank away in crunch time, not wanting the ball in the clutch because he was a terrible free throw shooter and knew he'd be sent to the line because his opponents were well aware how big a weakness it was for him. John Havlicek has noted that he was able to make his famous steal because he knew exactly where the ball was going; it wasn't going to Wilt, because he didn't want it.

LeBron has shown flashes of that in the past and while it's a criticism that has at times been exaggerated or applied unfairly given the circumstances, at other times it's been valid. These past couple of years, though? Not so much. He's been a beast from opening tip to final buzzer and not shied away from taking control and making the big shots and plays.

[NovU]

but the notion that Wilt only played with nobodies and has-beens in small markets - as you put it - is not up for debate. It's 100% false, given some of the teammates he did play with and the cities he played in.

Small markets's never been said in my original statement but rather stated 'less attractive' compared to the Lakers and Celtics.

And I have no doubt that Bill had superior teammates also based on outside the stat sheet or simple w/s. Heck, in their meetings against each other Wilt absolutely outplayed Bill yet came out short numerously. If Wilt had teammates of equal caliber, it wouldn't have happened so often.

LeBron has shown flashes of that in the past and while it's a criticism that has at times been exaggerated or applied unfairly given the circumstances, at other times it's been valid. These past couple of years, though? Not so much. He's been a beast from opening tip to final buzzer and not shied away from taking control and making the big shots and plays.

You brought up the whole new discussion. This 'pressure' talk which I was responding(to Sauru) to was not anything about criticism on individual shortcomings.

[_Steve_]

This 'pressure' talk which I was responding(to Sauru) to was not anything about criticism on individual shortcomings.

How do you want to make a clean cut? Individual shortcomings and the general inability of not being capable of dealing with pressure go hand in hand. In crunchtime a player may take one bad shot, miss some crucial free throw or throw a bad pass. If some of this happens more often than not, the player might be just a flat out idiot, but it's more likely he can't deal with the pressure.
Back to that Bill/Wilt comparison. You just don't run in all those titles by accident. Bill was the ancor of that Celtics team and a big reason why they won that titles. Wilt was an idiot/lunatic, which is something you can see when you look at the season when he wanted to be assist leader...

[Sauru]

"fuck you i am better and will win this shit right here".

the pressure talk

you can watch lebron at the end of games and tell he does not like it

he cannot handle it.

I'm one of those people who just laughs and not absorb when Skip Bayless and Steph A Smith constantly feeds people with BS.

to be honest i have no idea what either of them ever say. cant remember the last time i heard either of them say anything.

[NovU]

How do you want to make a clean cut? Individual shortcomings and the general inability of not being capable of dealing with pressure go hand in hand. In crunchtime a player may take one bad shot, miss some crucial free throw or throw a bad pass. If some of this happens more often than not, the player might be just a flat out idiot, but it's more likely he can't deal with the pressure.

Is this mix and match game where we're supposed to find ways to label LBJ a "can't handle pressure" guy? But again, that's not the kind of "pressure" we were referring to in this discussion.

Wilt was an idiot/lunatic, which is something you can see when you look at the season when he wanted to be assist leader...

"I call Wilt Chamberlain a very honest workman. By that, I mean he always did what his employer wanted. No star athlete has ever given his boss more for the money than Wilt did during his career. Eddie Gottlieb [owner of the Warriors] wanted Wilt to score like no man ever had, so Wilt did. [Alex] Hannum and some of his other coaches wanted him to pass and play defense, so he did that and he played 48 minutes a night. Those who criticized Wilt -- first for his scoring, then for not scoring more -- really should have criticized his employer." --Leonard Koppett, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 329

[shadowgrin]

Wilt was an idiot/lunatic, which is something you can see when you look at the season when he wanted to be assist leader...

Yeah Wilt was such an idiot that when his coach asked him to pass the ball more he did, not only did he had a career high in assists that season but they also won the championship.
Wilt being the lunatic that he was realized that they won a championship with him passing more so he passed more so in the following season which ended up with him leading the league in assist totals and second in assists per game but unfortunately they ended up losing to the Celtics by 4 points in game 7 of the ECF, which could have gone either way.
Then his coach was poached by the ABA so Wilt asked to be traded to the Lakers...

[Sauru]

the bottom line is wilt backstabbed arnold and for that i will never forgive him

[benji]

Why was Wilt ever even brought up in this conversation?

He was dealt from the Warriors because the franchise was having financial problems. He was dealt from the Sixers because of the whole fight over ownership shares and Hannum leaving. The reason he went to LA is because he wanted to hang out with celebrities and bang white chicks and they had junk the Sixers were willing to accept.

Like Kareem he never "forced" trades for basketball reasons. Even if it did lead to "super teams" being built. (He hated Baylor so I doubt he wanted to team up with him or anything.)

Anyway:

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career was over.

On a summer day in the early 1980s at the Men's Gym on the UCLA campus, Chamberlain showed up to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. Brown was the coach of the Bruins back then, and Chamberlain often drove to UCLA from his home in Bel Air, Calif.

"Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled Tuesday after hearing that Chamberlain, his friend, had died at the age of 63, "and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt.

"So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one (of Johnson's) shots get to the rim."

Years ago, teams could pass the ball over the backboard or take a running start when attempting a foul shot. The former was outlawed because Chamberlain would use the backboard as a screen, cherry-picking passes and converting them into layups; the latter was banned after Chamberlain took a running start, leapt from the foul line and dunked the ball.

[NovU]

Wilt should have stuck to Volleyball or Track and field. Did he not set big 8 t&f records and dominated pro volleyball in his 40s? This guy prolly would have dominated well into his 40s if wasn't for career altering knee injury.

Why was Wilt ever even brought up in this conversation?

It was my masked effort to appreciate LBJ.

[shadowgrin]

Why would you when LeBron once bitched about playing 44 minutes and would get cramps trying to play 45 minutes while Wilt can run (this was the 60's NBA after all) the whole 48 minutes, score 50 on fags, grab 20 boards because of all that running and shooting, and still sex up some ladies after the game.

Not even close.

[graybakflip]

speaking of LBJ


just for laughs

[Andrew]

Small markets's never been said in my original statement but rather stated 'less attractive' compared to the Lakers and Celtics.

At the time, it probably wasn't that much of a factor. The Celtics obviously weren't an option, the Lakers hadn't won a championship since the Minneapolis days (and the Lakers players had voted to veto a trade to acquire Chamberlain a few years before they did finally trade for him), there was no free agency to speak of anyway and Philadelphia was Wilt's hometown.

And I have no doubt that Bill had superior teammates also based on outside the stat sheet or simple w/s. Heck, in their meetings against each other Wilt absolutely outplayed Bill yet came out short numerously. If Wilt had teammates of equal caliber, it wouldn't have happened so often.

He outscored him, being the more dominant offensive player. I wouldn't necessarily say he outplayed him. Additionally, it's not as though every game was a blowout or every Playoff series a clean sweep. But even so, even if we're going to say that Russell had superior teammates - which is a fair enough call - Wilt certainly wasn't forced to play with nobodies and has-beens. He did have some quality teammates of his own during his career.

You brought up the whole new discussion. This 'pressure' talk which I was responding(to Sauru) to was not anything about criticism on individual shortcomings.

It's all part of the same issue and set of criticisms, some of which are justified, others not so much, some simply exaggerated.

[shadowgrin]

LeBron jealous that Dwight Howard is getting all the attention so LeBron decided to open his whore mouth and say that Ray Allen deserves an apology.

KG and Pierce tells LeBron to shut his ignorant whore mouth.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_ ... miami-heat

"I think the first thing I thought was, 'Wow, Ray got killed for leaving Boston, and now these guys are leaving Boston,'" James said. "I think it's OK; I didn't mind it. But there were a couple guys who basically [expletive] on Ray for leaving, and now they're leaving.

"Tell LeBron to worry about Miami. It has nothing to do with Celtic business," Garnett said in response to James, who previously expressed thoughts that KG and Nets small forward Paul Pierce should apologize for criticizing Heat sharpshooter Ray Allen for leaving the Boston Celtics before they departed for Brooklyn.

"I left Boston?" Pierce said when asked of James' comments, clearly noting he had been dealt by the Celtics and didn't leave as a free agent.

[NovU]

I personally think Ray deserves more apology from Sauru than either of those two.

[Andrew]

Yeah, it's kind of a different situation. Still, I guess LeBron is just looking out for his teammate and it adds fuel to the fire, so bring on the Heat/Nets games.

[Stress Fracture]

Boston wanted to rebuild. KG and Pierce don't want to be involved on it. Come on Choke. Allen left when they could still compete. It's not like the situation today is the same a year ago.

[Sauru]

kg and pierce leaving is nothing at all like allen leaving. lebron comparing the 2 is just fucking idiotic

[NovU]

"I think the first thing I thought was, 'Wow, Ray got killed for leaving Boston, and now these guys don't even live in Boston,'" NovU said. "I think it's OK; I didn't mind it. But there were a couple guys who basically [expletive] on Ray for leaving, and now they don't even live there.

[SoF'nAwesome]

Just because Allen went to Miami is the reason for all the criticizing. He didn't willingly, it was Rondo who caused it. But when KG & Pierce traded themselves, it's nothing.

LeBron doesn't need to "worry" about Miami. KG should "worry" about Nets & where they will end up.

[Mandich]

So basically, Rondo told Allen, "hey man sign for the Heat, we don't need you here" ?
That is some heavy bullshit you've probably heard from irrelevant reporters, I'm surprised that someone believes that, but hey, you are a Heat bandwagon (said bandwagon, not fan, hold your orgasm heat fans)

[Jackal]

YEAH WELL FUCK YOU GUYS. RAY ALLEN BEST SHOOTER ALL TIME WOOHOO!! Lebron knows whats up. Pierce and Garnett are bitch ass because they didn't stick with Boston and Ray would have but Rondo said FUCK you Ray Ray go suck ass in Miami.

[_Steve_]

If you say so...