KOBE TALK (Your one-stop shop for everything Kobe!)

[.]

Yup I realize that, If Shaq wanted a trade that would get him out of LA there would be some options, you got Eric Dampier, Jermaine O´Neal and Keyon Martin who are some realistic goals, and from there you can build up a team and hope that in the upcoming years you will get a winning team.

Im not saying that its easy to build a team once you have the star player for the upcoming years, Im saying its Easier to build a team that already has the young superstar, then creating a new one when you basicly have nothing but some roleplayers.

[magius]

i respectfully disagree. I would prefer to build around an above average big man, say 14ppg+, 9rpg+, and more importantly 2 bgp+, than a superstar guard. The guard is tempting because on the surface it looks good, but a superstar guard will always devalue the point on the team, it is not likely that any point guard that plays true point will average more than 10ppgs playing with a bryant-like player.

I would build around my big man and an average 1 and 2 that can hit at least 14-16 ppgs (think rip, billups). that point total gets you basically the same production that bryant and whatever pg he plays with will get, and probably at a higher percentage considering they are not stars and will play within the system and move the ball intelligently to further the team. And good, unselfish ball movement also = more points for your 3 (since most 3s are not point forwards), and higher percentage shooting.

The big man is the most important piece of the puzzle, because like i've been saying repeatedly your defense is only as good as your big man. Defense is a better recipe for a championship than offense because good defense is more consistent.

also, the lakers basically have been cornered into saying they are willing to trade shaq to keep kobe because kobe is the one with the immediate threat of leaving, its the smart thing to do. When its shaqs time to go they will inevitably say the same thing about kobe as long as shaq retains a hint of his old dominace. Basically after kobe is signed it will be 2 years of suck up to shaq time in which he will most likely forget the, in my eyes, unforgivable insult of being second to bryant. It's a risky game, but its the only way to at least try and keep them both.

[Amphatoast]

Yup I realize that, If Shaq wanted a trade that would get him out of LA there would be some options, you got Eric Dampier, Jermaine O´Neal and Keyon Martin who are some realistic goals, and from there you can build up a team and hope that in the upcoming years you will get a winning team.

ironically shaq wants a trade now
Kobe might just be staying

[Amphatoast]

Kobe to New York? Peter Vecesy say its possible.
If not convicted, Kobe could get the $5million from the Knicks+ maybe a $100million contract with Nike since it is NY where everyone cares whats on their feet!
So really Kobe would be getting $5millionfrom Knicks +10mill from Nike=15mill a year

[PRoPuLsiOnDJ]

Kobe to New York? Peter Vecesy say its possible.
If not convicted, Kobe could get the $5million from the Knicks+ maybe a $100million contract with Nike since it is NY where everyone cares whats on their feet!
So really Kobe would be getting $5millionfrom Knicks +10mill from Nike=15mill a year

haha yeah .... sure bob.
kobe's opting out of LA becuz he's just getting 14.4 mill per year. And he knows he's worth a lot more than that. Hell, if he wins the case, he can get the NIKE contract here in LA. He's not gonna go to NY for just $5 mill a year. He's gonna demand 30 mill a year. And that means NY has to trade its players, otherwise it aint happening.

[Steve04]

Looks to me like Kobe is staying and Shaq could be on the way out. I wish they'd keep them both, but if I had to choose...Damn, that's a hard choice. If Shaq was 26 there'd be no question. I have to go with Kobe..But the Lakers are going about this the entirely wrong way. Level with Shaq, if they were honest with him maybe Shaq would've helped them recruit Kobe to stay here. Now Shaq is pissed off and he might be gone. If they do trade him it better be to a Eastern Conference Team.

[Andre]

Interesting start of the summer.
What the Lakers said about O'Neil is unforgivable. Damn, Shaq is my idol, how can you do that? But it's true that Kobe is younger and the Lakers (if we consider their history) have always chosen to rebuild quickly. Kobe is the quickest way to rebuild the team.

Honestly I think Jerry West would have chosen Bryant as well. The choice is made not on how Kobe is playing now, but how he could play. It's a matter of talent. The Lakers know he can pass that damn ball if he wants to. What they hope is Kobe will change is mindset the day is officially recognized as their most important player. Kobe can make is teammates better, I saw him doing it in many games with my eyes. He had some games scoring 14-16 with 10-12 assists and 8-10 rebounds. He had some game where he was Magic. I remember one, 2 years ago, where they show Jerry West after a Kobe's play set up Fox for a 3, West had a look in his eyes that I can't even start to describe, he was almost moved by the beauty of that play.

I recognized that Kobe's development in this sense has stopped. His shots selection hasn't improved as much as I was hoping. In some games it's even worse than 3 years ago. But then I think that he's 25, and this fact alone gives me hope for the future.

The Pistons and the Spurs proved us that you can win w/o Shaq. They proved that you can win against Shaq.

[Jackal]

If Shaq was 26 there'd be no question. I have to go with Kobe

Championships > Ok winning. Oh wait, try explaining that to "I need my own team cuz rings aint important to me no more".

The Pistons and the Spurs proved us that you can win w/o Shaq. They proved that you can win against Shaq.

Spurs: Big Men: Robinson, although he was declining, he was still a factor + Tim Duncan.

Detroit: Big Men: Rasheed Wallace + Ben Wallace...they were non-factors? Right.

Notice, both these big men are pretty much star players.

Lakers - Shaq = Kobe led team. All goodie

Kobe + which big man? Swift? He's pretty much a star...Martin? Right.

Basically, Kobe + "star" = Kobe unhappy since it isn't his team, boo hoo.

MJ + Pippen (star) = success.

Kobe on his own = mediocre.

[Steve04]

PJ, I said if it was up to me I'd have kept Shaq..but if I had to CHOOSE. Because if the Lakers trade Shaq they CAN get players who can help Kobe win. Obviously you don't believe that but hey, that's your perogative.

[Jackal]

Yeps, my opinion that Kobe cannot play along side anyone who's close to being named a star. If he wins, he'll win with guys like Lindsey Hunter + Slava Medvedenko. Whilst he scores 40 something points. Yay!

Bam, Slava turns out to be scoring 20 something points...on a consistant basis:

Kobe: I want a trade, this isn't my team.

[Steve04]

Kobe and Shaq are the two best players in the league arguably. It's not suprising they rubbed egos. Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen may have been two of the best two, but there was no question about who was better. That line is blurred with Kobe and Shaq.

[Jackal]

Value, let's talk value.

The line between value is blurred for Kobe fans - Laddas.

[Amphatoast]

I think Kobe will find out this season that it is a gift to have Shaq next to him...will be a tough experience for him..worst case scenerio is going to jail though.

[Steve04]

Shaq will also find out it was a gift to be playing next to Kobe. Neither has won without the other.

[Jackal]

It's been more of a gift to Kobe than it has been to Shaq.

[matmat8]

You should stop blaming Kobe like that Psycho, don't forget what he has done for the Lakers these past years even if it was with Shaq.
Why is it so hard for everybod to understand Kobe doesn't want to play with Shaq anymore

Im not saying i agree or anything (i think he should stay as he is still young so he could get "his" team later, and stick with shaq as he is going down but can make any team a contender...) but i understand he doesn't want Shaq around anymore.

[Amphatoast]

ahh the whole Shaq needs Kobe more vs. Kobe needs Shaq more battle continues.
I think Shaq might demand his own thread since it might be disrespect for Kobe to have his own and Shaq doesn't lol j/k

[.]

LA Times:

Here's the painful truth, Laker fans. The Lakers will probably not win the championship next season under any scenario.

Not if Phil, Shaq and Kobe all came back. Not if Shaq and Kobe somehow manage to return together. Not if Kobe signs with another team and Shaq returns. Not if Shaq is traded and Kobe returns.

Next year doesn't matter. The Lakers need to prepare for the next decade.

That means goodbye, Phil. Probably goodbye, Shaq.

And a hello again to the past, present and future of the Lakers Kobe Bryant.

Some may like it, some dont....This is how I see it and this writer aswell

[Fresh8]

Shaq was lucky he got to play with Kobe!

AND VICE VERSA!

How do u know Kobe won't win w/o Shaq? Kobe is the best....he's only 26... MJ didnt win a ring at that age....stop saying Kobe is bad without Shaq until it's been proven for an 82 game season which will happen very soon!

[Jackal]

The thing I'm trying to get into everyone's skull is that Kobe is replaceable. Shaq however, isn't.

Kobe is the best? According to what? That ring? Heh, if Mike had Shaq playing along side him I think he would have a ring too. Kobe is the best, seriously, what ever your name is, go preach that stuff to someone who will actually believe it and/or to someone who watches no basketball.

Kobe is the best...heh, TD > Kobe any day.

*shrug* This is why I want Kobe to go lead his team, it'll finally put a cork in the mouth of folks such as yourself.

This is going to be one helluva season.

[lakergreat85]

ok, I agree 100% with psycho jackal...Kobe bryant is very replaceable, and Shaq isn't. I am the number one lakers fan out there, and ive watched just about every game these 2 have played together. don't get me wrong, kobe is a great player, a great scorer, very explosive, when he's not lazy on the court he's a good defender too, but Shaq is much more important to the Lakers (even if Kupchak is such a freakin retard that he doesn't see that) Shaq demands the double team. There is not one center or big man who can play shaq straight up, but I mean, we saw kobe get picked apart by Tayshaun Prince (and most people as they are reading this are probably thinking, who the hell is that?) exactly my point. Kobe is good, even great when he finds the determination to be so. And he probably could have (or at least should have ) been able to run circles around and score 35 over Prince, but he didn't do it. Now the lakers are talking about trading Shaq, there is not one player in the league who compares with Shaq who could be traded straight across for, yet I can name 3 who could be traded straight across for for kobe (if the contracts allowed) Those three would be Duncan, McGrady (if orlando was feeling generous) and Jason Kidd (once again, if NJ was feeling generous) All 3 of those players are on the same level as Kobe, there is nobody on the same level as Shaq. If you've ever even watched a laker's game the last 8 years, you've seen first hand that shaq makes kobe a better player. Let's see how well Kobe plays without a big man in the middle drawing a double team and then dishing it out to him. Kobe wont be able to make 25 a game in that scenario (well maybe against dallas he'll get to 30) I don't understand the laker's current philosophy that kobe is the franchise player. Where the hell is Jerry West when you need him......oh yea, in memphis.........(sobs sobs) LOL

[Andre]

I posted this on the Lakers Talk thread as well...

You don't win with Shaq alone. Kobe is the reason the Lakers have won many titles. I've seen many lakers games in the last 8 years. Who had the ball in the final minutes when the game is decided?

Of course Kobe. IF you give it to Shaq, they foul him and you guys know how bad he's from the line. More than often even Phil Jackson wanted Shaq to stay away from the action and let Kobe lead the show and win the game.

If Shaq is your only superstar, you don't win anything guys, because you don't have a superstar that you can use in your last minutes. Shaq cannot be your go-to-guy.

Shaq + role players = you go nowhere
Shaq + Kobe = you can win titles
Kobe + role players = you can win titles? I don't know, we'll see..

[Amphatoast]

I posted this on the Lakers Talk thread as well...

You don't win with Shaq alone. Kobe is the reason the Lakers have won many titles. I've seen many lakers games in the last 8 years. Who had the ball in the final minutes when the game is decided?

Of course Kobe. IF you give it to Shaq, they foul him and you guys know how bad he's from the line. More than often even Phil Jackson wanted Shaq to stay away from the action and let Kobe lead the show and win the game.

If Shaq is your only superstar, you don't win anything guys, because you don't have a superstar that you can use in your last minutes. Shaq cannot be your go-to-guy.

Shaq + role players = you go nowhere
Shaq + Kobe = you can win titles
Kobe + role players = you can win titles? I don't know, we'll see..

without shaq, most of those final minutes opportunites wouldn't of happened.
Shaq+a decent role player who can shoot and shoot free throws ( like Wally)= you can win
That's like saying Wilt Chamberlin couldn't win alone. I know its a long time ago, but he, like Shaq, both sucked at free throws.
Oh, and a more modern day player kind of like this is Tim Duncan. His free throw shooting isn't too great, but you see what him+the role players have done.

[Andre]

I'll answer only in this tread...
With Shaq you need more than role players, you need someone capable of carrying the team in the last minutes. No role player can do that, at least not consistently.

Duncan is a good example, I give you that. But he's a little better at FTs. plus he has a nice jumper, harder to foul. With Shaq you need to go to the low post all the time, where it's easy to foul him. PLus, Duncan had Parker and Ginobili, that I don't consider role players like Fox and Fisher. Both Tony and Manu can carry a team and be more dangerous than Fox and Fisher as they both can create their own shot, like Kobe does, and like all the other lakers cannot.

[Amphatoast]

ok Parker & Manu are both good yes, but if you take away Kobe from the Lakers and let a young guy develop like the Spurs did, like say Kareem Rush, then he would be the same as Manu and all is even..and maybe Fisher might of been better without Kobe...not saying that Kobe is bad, but Kobe does change the flow of things, and who knows who else might be better...its hard to predict what happens without him, but you got to thing of the good things that could of happen..
look at Jermaine O'neal..if he was with Portland still, he wouldn't be what he would be right now since he wa playing in the shadows of a star player ( Rasheed) and you can use that same example for Kobe.