Bron will get Rookie of the Year

[air gordon]

Wonder why Chicago got rid of a player who playes very well for Toronto down the stretch...

it allowed hinrich to make antonio davis "shutup" and make linton johnson "playe" awesome

Lebron...has a brighter future

what does this have to with voting for rookie of the year?

out of curiousity- i understand what he means to the cleveland cavs. however what's this huge impact that lebron james has made on the league? hype? jersey sales? encourage more high school players to declare for the nba draft? has he changed the way the game is played?

[Jackal]

Now that you mention that, I want to ask, how did Michael Jordan impact the league?

[magius]

i guess even if he sucked he'd be remembered as being one of the most hyped player ever (until the next one comes along, that is)

everyone metions lebron getting to control/distribute the ball more than melo as if that should detract from his case, but i think theres a reason bron handles the ball more than melo -- because he can and because he has to. melo isnt a point, melo isnt a 2, melo's strictly a three, but bron can play 1,2, and 3 and is forced to in cleveland because cleveland hasnt had a legit point, shooting guard, or small forward for the entirety of the season.

i pick bron because he has faced more challenges. let's get one thing straight first, denver without melo is not equal to cleveland without bron. denver is by far the better team.

its true denver was overhauled in the offseason, but an overhauling during the offseason is a lot different than an overhauling mid season, especially for a new player expected to lead a group of players constantly changing.

anyway, in the end i guess its just a case of picking your sugar -- both are good and better in their own respects.......its like picking kg or td. bron has great versatility, but melo just sticks to what he does best and is good to great at it. its a tough decision, especially for me, because if i use my above metaphor as my path of logic it just fucks my brain up royally because on the first comparison id pick duncan and the second bron!!!!!!!! i guess its because i prefer a dominant post player to a versatile genius, but melo isnt a dominant post player...........

...... i guess a better comparison would be grant hill (assuming no injury) vs glenn robinson, and in that case i always pick hill.

i dunno, 20 5 and 5 out of high school is just more impressive to me, and like i said only mj and roberston have ever done it in their rookie seasons.

[fgrep15]

Like I said, you mention all those things again but in the end every argument you cna pose cancels out, but the HYPE Lebron has is giving a double weighting because it was clear all the reporters, analysts (except Magic) etc have been in love with him since the beginning.

Lebron did not change the way the game was played, he isn't the first tall guy to play the point or any of that, he just sold jerseys and encourage the whole highschool crew to declare.

If their was not hype which can hardly ever happen, their would be no edge for either player.

Like you said Lebron can play all those positions, but he's a defensive liability at the 1 and 2. We also don't know, maybe Melo could play them but the oppurtunity hasn't occured, he did it in college, its like Josh Howard, he played point in college and could play point right now but their's Nash so most people won't know he can.

Devner without Melo if they were in the East isn't equal to Cleveland without Bron, in the West it would be like the Cavs from a few years ago when Andre averaged 10+ assists.
Cleveland didn't have an overhaul, and I've already thrown that fact in, they made the trades but Denver is in the midwest.

Let's say the battle was between Hinrich and Bosh, and their were no Lebron, Wade and Melo. Now are we going to start saying Hinrich is the better player because he gets more assists, or Bosh is the better defender because he gets more blocks?

The isn't even close to a Grant Hill vs Glenn Robinson, its like a Vince Carter vs Paul Pierce

[Jackal]

I would say Hinrich is better since assists are more important to me than blocks are. But, that's just my opinion.

[magius]

id think thered be a reason nba anaylsts and scouts loved him from the beginning, and i think theres a reason the analysts love him even more now. by the way, all the analysts loved melo from the beginning too-- if i recall correctly most of them predicted him winning roy, if this were a case of ego and bias-ness prevailing over common sense then id think that those analysts would want to prove their predictions right, and either way, not all of these guys are barkley or magic and dont let that get in the way of their professional opinions.

lebrons rookie season: 20.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.9 apg
melos rookie season: 21.0 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.8 apg

grant hills first season: 19.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.0 apg
glenn robinsons first season: 21.9 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.5 apg

carters first: 18.3 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 3.0 apg
peirces first: 16.5 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.4 apg

you be the judge of whom is more similar to who. i still think its grant hill vs robinson over carter vs pierce. to each his own.

lebron didnt win the trophy out of hype, he won it out of ability.

cleveland traded 2 core players in miles and ricky davis, i dont call that a 'complete' overhaul, but an overhaul to a degree. only 4 players in cleveland played more than 70 games for cleveland during the entirety of the season compared to 8 for denver. contrary to popular belief, stability does play a factor on a team's ability to compete.

Devner without Melo if they were in the East isn't equal to Cleveland without Bron, in the West it would be like the Cavs from a few years ago when Andre averaged 10+ assists.

i'm not trying to be a jack/smart ass, but i dont understand.

i said denver without melo is a better team than cleveland without bron; what conference a team is in has no bearing on how good the players on the team or the team is from a talent only perspective. if youre trying to say denver is a better team, i dont think youre right, but explain why.

and the point on maybe anthony can play the point too is a good point, but it adds to my argument that bron was thrown into a tougher challenge because like you said anthony doesnt have to play point, he already has one. bron doesnt have one (or hasnt for an entire season) and so is forced to do much more. everyone knows its easier to concentrate on one thing than be responsible for many.

oh, and, uh, i agree, i pick hinrich too ........

[fgrep15]

I would say Hinrich is better since assists are more important to me than blocks are. But, that's just my opinion.

Analogy..........


Yea and Hill also had a better FG%, more steals, less turnovers, same amount of rebounds...........

cleveland traded 2 core players in miles and ricky davis, i dont call that a 'complete' overhaul, but an overhaul to a degree. only 4 players in cleveland played more than 70 games for cleveland during the entirety of the season compared to 8 for denver. contrary to popular belief, stability does play a factor on a team's ability to compete.

Since I already said this about 3 times in this same thread then

i'm not trying to be a jack/smart ass, but i dont understand.

i said denver without melo is a better team than cleveland without bron; what conference a team is in has no bearing on how good the players on the team or the team is from a talent only perspective. if youre trying to say denver is a better team, i dont think youre right, but explain why.

Woa, how you worded that was just odd, yes that is what I'm trying to say, I think??

and the point on maybe anthony can play the point too is a good point, but it adds to my argument that bron was thrown into a tougher challenge because like you said anthony doesnt have to play point, he already has one. bron doesnt have one (or hasnt for an entire season) and so is forced to do much more. everyone knows its easier to concentrate on one thing than be responsible for many

Very true, I think I said that too, but he's had one for about 30 games this season. Jeff McInnis!!!

oh, and, uh, i agree, i pick hinrich too ........

Analogy, Brand or Francis , if Franchise has the shots he'd also be in the record books as having 20-5-5, and if Hill had 0.1 more points so would he.

Remember, Per 39.5 mnutes, Carmelo averages 22.7 points, 6.6 rebounds, and 3.0 assists a game

and even in the 2 fan polls on NBA.com, Carmelo beat Lebron by 63.5% to 31% with the other votes going to someone else.

[magius]

Yea and Hill also had a better FG%, more steals, less turnovers, same amount of rebounds...........

well, i guess that evens it out then. robinson compared to melo also had a better fg%, more steals, more rebounds, he did have a bit more turnovers but he also scored more.

cleveland traded 2 core players in miles and ricky davis, i dont call that a 'complete' overhaul, but an overhaul to a degree. only 4 players in cleveland played more than 70 games for cleveland during the entirety of the season compared to 8 for denver. contrary to popular belief, stability does play a factor on a team's ability to compete.

Since I already said this about 3 times in this same thread then

oops, i thought you were the other guy my mistake.
well, its good that you agree, so unless im mistaken now we both agree that bron had another challenge melo didnt face.

i'm not trying to be a jack/smart ass, but i dont understand.

i said denver without melo is a better team than cleveland without bron; what conference a team is in has no bearing on how good the players on the team or the team is from a talent only perspective. if youre trying to say denver is a better team, i dont think youre right, but explain why.

Woa, how you worded that was just odd, yes that is what I'm trying to say, I think??

whoa, yeah it was odd typo! what i meant to ask was if you were trying to say CLEVELAND is a better team, which i thought you were trying to say, but now i apparently know you werent.... i think. im confused.

anyway, since you agree that denver is better, well then you agree that bron has yet another challenge -- suceeding with a crappeir team then melo which then is another reason bron as roy is right.

and the point on maybe anthony can play the point too is a good point, but it adds to my argument that bron was thrown into a tougher challenge because like you said anthony doesnt have to play point, he already has one. bron doesnt have one (or hasnt for an entire season) and so is forced to do much more. everyone knows its easier to concentrate on one thing than be responsible for many
Very true, I think I said that too, but he's had one for about 30 games this season. Jeff McInnis!!!

emphasis thirty games

oh, and, uh, i agree, i pick hinrich too ........
Analogy, Brand or Francis , if Franchise has the shots he'd also be in the record books as having 20-5-5, and if Hill had 0.1 more points so would he.

emphasis = if.

Remember, Per 39.5 mnutes, Carmelo averages 22.7 points, 6.6 rebounds, and 3.0 assists a game

lebrons 39.5, melo's 36.5. its not that big a deal for me, but if thats all you're basing your vote on, oh well.

and even in the 2 fan polls on NBA.com, Carmelo beat Lebron by 63.5% to 31% with the other votes going to someone else

yet another reason why its a good thing fans dont get to vote

now, give me one adversity melo faced that bron hasnt. i cant think of one.

i like the analogys they're fun! anyway, i pick brand, but brand is a good post up player, i already said id pick a good post up player over a good versatile player. melo isnt no post up player

[VCFAN]

you guys are all crazy. Bosh or Wade should win Rookie of the Year. lol.
Just kidding.

[Nick]

*cough* i have something intelligent to say...

ahem...

I still stand by Rens' comparison: Carmelo will turn out to be a Robinsin type player

This is actually Ben's theory.

I have spoken. woah...

[Jackal]

That may be possible but there was a thread over at .org and the first time I saw that comparison, it was made by Rens, so yeah, maybe Ben said it before and Rens just took it over (the way I did) but that was the first time I saw it.

Although Hill & Robinson is a better comparison, I prefer using Johnson, I think LeBron will do good, unhindered by injuries a lá Hill hopefully.

[fgrep15]

lebrons 39.5, melo's 36.5. its not that big a deal for me, but if thats all you're basing your vote on, oh well.

Well I just thought I'd make it fair on the minutes, because if he was playing the same minutes tha margins he beats him in points and rebounds would be higher.
Per 39.5 minutes
Carmelo: 22.7 points + 6.6 rebounds + 3.0 assists = 32.3
Lebron: 20.9 points + 5.5 rebounds + 5.9 assists = 32.3

whoa, yeah it was odd typo! what i meant to ask was if you were trying to say CLEVELAND is a better team, which i thought you were trying to say, but now i apparently know you werent.... i think. im confused.

anyway, since you agree that denver is better, well then you agree that bron has yet another challenge -- suceeding with a crappeir team then melo which then is another reason bron as roy is right.

Yea that whole thing confused me their, I think it was a typo by me, but yes Denver's team is better but I don't know what that has to do with anything. They still never had a consistent leader and were in the Midwest.


He didn't really suceed with the team, I wouldn't consider winning 35 wins a success, but compared to last season it is. The thing is that their team from last season wasn't even bad, but they weren't even trying to win, they had a bad coach, Ricky Davis as a star and they could compete on offense but I think Milt Palacio (Stupid Palacio) was the only one that played D.

What I also don't get is the whole living up to the hype thing, thats the most horrible thing ever. I read so many reports from the ESPN guys and such and all they say is the reason he won is because he lived up to the hype and played so well through the hype so he deserves more credit? Is he supposed to get on the court and suddenly be scared and play bad because people are expecting a lot?
The pressure the player has should not be incorperated into the voting, that just seems odd to me.

i like the analogys they're fun! anyway, i pick brand, but brand is a good post up player, i already said id pick a good post up player over a good versatile player. melo isnt no post up player

Hinrich over Bosh?, and Hinrich isn't even that versatile
Lamar Odom or Steve Francis

[Jackal]

Lamar Odom, he can play Point-Forward.

[fgrep15]

NBA Season 1999-2000

[Jackal]

Eh?

[EGarrett]

fgrep15...

You shouldn't have to make so many "if" and "maybe" statements if Carmelo should be rookie of the year. The criteria isn't set but the trophy definitely isn't given out on "ifs" and "maybes."

And Lebron played more minutes. There's a reason for that. His team either needed him more or Lebron had more endurance than Melo. Both are plusses in the voting.

Lebron also had less preparation for the NBA than Melo. Additionally, Lebron was a much better leader for his team. Melo had that well-publicized incident where his team was telling him to stop shooting so much (or something of that nature) and he got angry and refused to re-enter the game when they needed him.

Lastly, the amount of pressure and hype is a factor. This is basketball, and team's defensive strategy is based on what they expect from their opponent. If you're hyped, the team will put their best defenders on you night-in and night-out. And Lebron is one of the most hyped players in the history of the game...so a lot of teams were itching to shut him down. He performed regardless.

[fgrep15]

Actually read my posts from the beginning, I didn't have many "if's" and "maybe's".
I also used the "if's" for both players, with the most prominent one being if Lebron had this same team the whole year he'd be in the playoffs, unless you're applying that the "if's" are only credible for Lebron but not for Carmelo. Just playing, you likely didn't read from the beginning.

Or maybe his coach just never wanted to take him off, you said Carmelo had better training, so he should have better endurance shouldn't he?

Pressure or hype shouldn't be a factor, but I know its made to be, if oyu're trying to say Carmelo didn't get the other teams best defender night in and night out, then I don't know what games you were watching.

Also in the beginning of the season Ricky Davis got the better defenders not Lebron.

[air gordon]

King James doesn't deserve the rookie crown
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=kingjamesdoesntdeserveth&prov=tsn&type=lgns

[Jackal]

Well, there you have it folks, forget every argument made in this thread, a Chicago based writer has changed my opinion completely.

[fgrep15]

but that's the exact same things I said, stupid Sean Deveney being more convincing than me............



Ths face will hunt me for life.........

[Bill Russell]

Way to go, LeBron. You get my vote & admiration. I like Carmelo a lot too, but LeBron is another class. This kid is gonna be great, great, great.

[EGarrett]

Deveney didn't say anything.

First of all, he claims that what happened last year has no bearing on the award...then he bases his argument on the Nuggets going from 17 wins last year to 43 wins and the Cavaliers "falling apart in the sad-sack East."

He's also judging Anthony by criteria that he strangely doesn't apply to James. The Cavaliers went from 17 wins to 35, and the Nuggets were all-around a better team than the Cavs. The percentage of shots that a player takes has no bearing on the skill of his teammates. Allen Iverson took all of his team's shots when they went to the finals and all of his team's shots this year when they didn't even make the playoffs.

He's proved nothing...and said nothing but a few self-contradictions and non sequiturs.

[benji]

Plus he picked Randolph for Most Improved Player. Ick.

Mmm...addressing issues...
For Reference: I think LeBron and Carmelo should share the award, BUT, if I had a vote for ROY I would have given it to Wade.

Offensive Rebounds, Melo isn't that big a defensive rebounder but he crashes the offensive glass. Melo gets 6.2% of his teams offensive boards, and 10.6% of the defensive rebounds.
Lebron gets 3.1% of the offensive rebounds, and 10.4% of the defensive rebounds.

The difference is actually greater...
LeBron: 3.8%, 11.8%, 7.6% (overall)
LeMelo: 6.8%, 12.1%, 9.4% (overall)

The other thing is you think yourself, how much difference is their getting the ball as a 2 guard and a 3 guard. In the NBA their isn't much difference being a 2 or 3 than who is quarding you, they're generally both wing players. Now if it was a PF or something, their is no comparison between rebounds there. PG's even have about the same chance of grabbing a board as a 2 or 3, but most of them don't want to or are too small, ask Kidd and Francis.

Actually, here there is a difference because LeBron was often running the offense he was setting up farther out so that reduced his chance at offensive rebounds, while LeMelo was posting up more often on the low block so it put him in position to get more offensive rebounds. On the other end the same is true, LeBron was more on the outside while teams loved to force LeMelo to defend in the post. The defensive rebounding difference is very small, but I think even if the roles were reversed LeMelo would still beat LeBron quite a bit on the offensive boards because LeBron rarely followed up his shot, maybe due to Boozer and Ilgauskas sitting down low or maybe due to the fact he had to get back or else he would be killed on a fast break. LeMelo on the other hand followed up his shots (when he was outside), primarly I think because he wanted to shoot more and maybe because he knew if his man got out on the break he wouldn't be stopping him anyway.

I do give the advantage to LeMelo here though. It'd be surprising if he didn't outrebound LeBron considering he grabbed 10 boards a game in college while LeBron only got what was it, 7-8 in high skewl?

Playing SG & PG could also be why he gets more blocks, and gambling more on defense could also be why he gets more steals, but actually its also because he's much more atheletic and quicker, but he does gamble too much at times but so does Melo, rookie things.

Actually, they both gamble because they're horrible defenders and that's the only way they can stop their man. LeBron is slightly better on the defensive end, yes, because of his better athleticism and also his size. LeBron doesn't get abused by the bigger/stronger players at his position as easily as LeMelo does.

I give Defense slightly to LeBron. But it's close because they're both so bad.

Like I said, look at all those players, if the comparison is taking the aspect of assists, then we won't really know unless Melo is put in the same position to handle the ball that much in order to create for his teammates.

It's been brought up that you're saying LeBron and LeMelo are the same position when talking about rebounds and the opposite when talking about assists. And you're both right.

LeBron: 19.1 Assist Ratio, 25.7% Assist Percentage, 2.59 Pass Rating, +1.19 PPR
LeMelo: 10.5, 12.6%, 0.70, -3.19

LeBron's should rack up more assists on a whole but he shouldn't blow out LeMelo because of that. LeMelo is not as good of passer and he's not as willing of passer, he has more confidence in himself than his teammates. He could realistically get 3.5-4 assists per game and still match LeBron on scoring, but LeBron will probably always hold the advantage here. It's not a big issue in the long run because LeMelo will be a scorer, while LeBron will be looked at to be the Magic type.

Anyways, Dwyane Wade should have but wouldn't have won it if he didn't get injured, but he did get injured so..............

YES. You are so right.

besides, only micheal jordan and oscar robertson have ever averaged 20 5 and 5 in their rookie season so i guess those extra assists do matter

Aren't we all getting tired of grab bag statistics like this?

Last year we were told Marbury is the first player other than Oscar to average 20 and 8 for his career. Marbury is at 20 and 8 while Oscar was at 25.7 and 9.5. Then also Magic has 19.5 and 11.2, Kevin Johnson has 18 and 9, Cousy has 19 and 8, Tiny Archibald has 19 and 7.5. Marbury's closer to them than Oscar.

Also last year, a big deal was made about Gilbert Arenas being one of seven players to get 15/5/5. He got 18.3ppg 4.7rpg 6.3apg. The other seven players were guys like KG (23.0ppg 13.4rpg 6.0apg) and Webber (23.0ppg 10.5rpg 5.4apg).

Now, this one.
LeBron: 21.0ppg 5.5rpg 5.9apg
Michael: 28.2ppg 6.5rpg 5.9apg (adj: 25.5ppg 5.9rpg 5.3apg)
Oscar: 30.5ppg 10.1rpg 9.7apg (adj: 24.0ppg 8.0rpg 7.6apg)

Even when adjusted for Pace, LeBron is still a ways off. Jordan destroys him in scoring while Oscar destroys him on the glass and passing. I'm nearly sure Oscar is the only guy to ever get 30/10/10 (20/7/7) for his rookie year and Jordan's probably the only 28/6/6 (25/5/5) guy.

Not to say LeBron hasn't been impressive, and yes, I do know he's only 18 and yes, he is close to those other two but this is one of those icky grab bag stats where they lower the requirements until they get what they want.

Then he would have scored even more, that's the point, he's scoring more while taking less shots.

Points Per Shot Attempt:
LeBron: 0.98
LeMelo: 1.02

Points Per 100 Possessions:
LeBron: 68.0
LeMelo: 79.5

Points Created Per 100 Possesions:
LeBron: 80.8
LeMelo: 84.3

Why is Payton averaging only 5.5 assists a game this year, and even per 48 minutes is 2.3 assists less than last year. Promary ball handler, and who gets the most touches.

But his Assist Ratio is only down to 25.9 from 26.8. Which I would attribute to his age and all those nights he was without his big scorers, so he's almost the same.

I like Nene, a lot, so I'm not ripping him but he's not that good a rebounder, and he's only missed 5 games towards the end, and Melo's rebounds were actually higher in the beginning of the season.

Actually, Nene missed those five games at the start of the season.

and they are in teh easiest division, and in teh eastern conference..

The Cavaliers aren't in the Atlantic, Jowe.

So if u work it out, each team has 1 all star, a star and a great rookie..

The Nuggets bit players are far better than the Cavaliers.

Then you take into consideration how the arrival of Carmelo changed the face of basketball in Denver, read articles, they have fans like never before and people are finally having hope again for the team.

It all gets attributed to LeMelo. Not replacing Junior Harrington and Vincent Yarbrough with Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard, Jon Barry and Earl Boykins. Not having a healthy Marcus Camby. Not having the second best Dutch big man.

Rodney White

Oooh, don't I hope Charlotte signs him.

The Cavs only good defenders are McInnis, Newble, Williams and Battie. Kedrick and Ollie are pretty decent

McInnis is not a good defensive player, he's "decent" and Battie is too. Newble was a stopper but he sure didn't play like one this year. Williams is one of the most underrated defenders in the league. Brown will be a stopper one night, average the next, hopefully Silas can take his athleticism and make him a bonifide stopper. Ollie is probably the teams best defensive player. Unfortunately he's also the smallest.

get your head out of the sand by the end of last year, boozer proved he was a 2nd round steal

BS says he was a star in waiting. PRO: 89.94, PER: 20.17, EFF: .540
BS says this year confirmed it. PRO: 103.91, PER: 22.38, EFF: .549

Boozer last year: 25.5mpg 10.0ppg 7.5rpg
At this years minutes: 13.7ppg 10.3rpg
Per 40: 15.8ppg 11.9rpg

Without Carmelo the Nuggets will be like the Bulls, Warriors & Clippers;

They wouldn't be as bad as the Bulls. *jab* *jab*

cleveland hasnt had a legit...small forward for the entirety of the season.

They did, but he got hurt and when he came back he was quite poor for reasons unknown.

Yea and Hill also had a better FG%, more steals, less turnovers, same amount of rebounds...........

He also didn't jack up threes, knew how to play defense and was more mature...

if Franchise has the shots he'd also be in the record books as having 20-5-5, and if Hill had 0.1 more points so would he.

Actually, Hill should be in it, because as I said above, both Arenas and Marbury were in the various things. Arenas had 4.7 rebounds. Marbury actually had 7.9 apg.

This is actually Ben's theory.

Actually, it's not. nbadraft.net had "Glenn Robinson" as LeMelo's comparison, John Hollinger said LeMelo reminded him of Glenn Robinson. What I was talking about was, it was spooky that Melo was posting stats (early on) that were EXACTLY the same as Glenn Robinson's. And he's kept that all year long, which is extremely spooky. I don't have time now, but later today I'll post on BS a comparison between Robinson and LeMelo in all of the stat categories I have. I will post a reply in this thread when I do so everyone can check that out. I'll also do LeBron and Grant Hill since it's been brought up and Wade and Isiah Thomas since Laimbeer brought that up. If anyone wants me to do someone for Hinrich (I'm thinking about bringing back the Nash comparison) or Bosh (I'm not really sure, maybe KG?) post it here, e-mail it to me, or IM me.

[fgrep15]

Thank you, Dwyane Wade people

The difference is actually greater...
LeBron: 3.8%, 11.8%, 7.6% (overall)
LeMelo: 6.8%, 12.1%, 9.4% (overall)

Yea I think the one I did took into account the boards that are recorded as team rebounds? Not sure.

Actually, they both gamble because they're horrible defenders and that's the only way they can stop their man. LeBron is slightly better on the defensive end, yes, because of his better athleticism and also his size. LeBron doesn't get abused by the bigger/stronger players at his position as easily as LeMelo does.

I give Defense slightly to LeBron. But it's close because they're both so bad.

I know, watching these guys play defense makes me want to cry, I like them but they're just badd defenders. The only thing is that Lebron couldn't guard quick PG's or SG's, they should try and get him playing the 3 next year.

But his Assist Ratio is only down to 25.9 from 26.8. Which I would attribute to his age and all those nights he was without his big scorers, so he's almost the same.

True, poor Payton

Actually, Nene missed those five games at the start of the season.

Man I wasn't sure, I knew it was either at the beginning or towards the end (like in the middle).

The Nuggets bit players are far better than the Cavaliers.

Yes very true, I think I said it a few times, the bench kills the Cavs, and the Cavs don't have any consistent shooters.

It all gets attributed to LeMelo. Not replacing Junior Harrington and Vincent Yarbrough with Andre Miller, Voshon Lenard, Jon Barry and Earl Boykins. Not having a healthy Marcus Camby. Not having the second best Dutch big man.

Fransisco Elson??

Oooh, don't I hope Charlotte signs him.

I hope Toronto signs him, or Washington.

McInnis is not a good defensive player, he's "decent" and Battie is too. Newble was a stopper but he sure didn't play like one this year. Williams is one of the most underrated defenders in the league. Brown will be a stopper one night, average the next, hopefully Silas can take his athleticism and make him a bonifide stopper. Ollie is probably the teams best defensive player. Unfortunately he's also the smallest.

Yea I didn;t really mean McInnis was an above average defender but on the Cavs team he is on of their better ones. Newble didn't all year, but he had some good games against some player, he did help them though.
I still think Brown can be a good player, he worked on his shot and the guy has so much atheleticism, I remember in college seeing this guy grabbing rebounds over all the big men and towering almost to the top of the backboard to grab them.
lol poor Kevin Ollie.

He also didn't jack up threes, knew how to play defense and was more mature...

I still wonder why Lebron takes so many three's, common take it to the basket. 19.9 ppg should have been rounded up.


I'd like to see Hinrich and Nash but what I see him as Nash with defense.

KG and Bosh would be good too, the only thing I don't think Bosh will have is the passing ability, I don't think he'll be a guy raking up assists like that.

Mickael Pietrus and Ron Artest? lol
You know I really can't get a Wade comparison in my head, can't think of anyone thats really similar. Flip Murray lol.

[benji]

I assume your rebound % didn't take into account minutes. Mine adjusts so it's only the amount of rebounds possible while that player is on the court.

Yes, Francisco Elson. He's the second best Dutch big man in the league! (Ignore that he is one of two Dutch big men...)

Here are the comparisons:
http://www.nbalive.org/bsanalysis/ref/rookies2004.html

I didn't do Bosh and KG...but here are their adjusted per 40 numbers:
KG: 14.1ppg 8.4rpg 2.4apg
Bosh: 14.3ppg 9.2rpg 1.3apg

I made it a reference page and avoided analysis. So I'll do some here.

Hill vs. James. Hill hit the boards better, was a more efficient scorer (though less prolific) and took about a tenth the amount of threes.

Robinson vs. Anthony. Look at these two, they're almost exactly the same. Robinson had more boards, was more efficent on offense and took more threes. Anthony better ballhandler and passer. But for both of those it's almost the same, like 1-1.5 more. Look at the Usage Rate (USR), Shot Attempt % (TSH), FTA per FGA (FTG), Offensive Rebound % (ORB), Offensive Percentage (OP), Scoring % (SCR%), Offensive Rating (OFF), Possession % (POS%) and FTA as % of shots (FTA). My god are these players exactly the same...

Nash vs. Hinrich. Another group of players who are almost exact. Nash would've beat back Hinrich on all the scoring stats if he took the extra 13% of threes (3FG), but Hinrich would even that out by being a superior defender.

Thomas vs. Wade. I see why Laimbeer compares these two. Though the Rebounds and Assists aren't even close, look at the Turnovers, the Shot Attempt %, FTA per FTG, 2FG, 3FG and FTA. Plus Wade has shown where he just takes over the end of games like Isiah did. Wade will probably never be the assist man that Isiah was, but he'll grab more rebounds.

Also, back on that 20/5/5 thing. I found some guys who didn't achieve all of the stats but who's rookie years I'd take over LeBron's.

Bird: 21.3ppg 10.4rpg 4.5apg (4.5 is close enough and Bird averaged over 6 apg for his career)
Kareem: 28.8ppg 14.5rpg 4.1apg (10 more points, 10 more rebounds, 1 less assist...good enough for me)
Baylor: 24.9ppg 15.0rpg 4.1apg
Erving: 27.3ppg 15.7rpg 4.0apg
Magic: 18.0ppg 7.7rpg 7.3apg
Earl The Pearl: 24.3ppg 5.7rpg 4.3apg
hell...even Iverson: 23.5ppg 4.1rpg 7.5apg