http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1784618
I think Carmelo got screwed this time, In my eyes he was more of a leader for his team then Bron was for the Cavs, and he couldnt lead his team to a (L)east playoff spot.
The least they could do is get Melo & James co rookies, that wouldve been fine with me, but this is absurd to me not picking him
Bron will get Rookie of the Year
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Bron will get Rookie of the Year
by . on Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:21 am
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by Jackal on Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:28 am
Way to go King James.
I think he deserves it, for all the "experience" Melo has had in College, he should have not been outshined by a Highschooler.
LeBron deserved this award. 19 year olds scoring averaging whatever he's averaging...is something special. Carmelo will be a good player, not an extra-ordinary player.
I liked the way Rens put it:
Who would you choose?
Carmelo Anthony vs. LeBron James is equivilant to Glen Robinson vs. Magic Johnson.
I think he deserves it, for all the "experience" Melo has had in College, he should have not been outshined by a Highschooler.
LeBron deserved this award. 19 year olds scoring averaging whatever he's averaging...is something special. Carmelo will be a good player, not an extra-ordinary player.
I liked the way Rens put it:
Who would you choose?
Carmelo Anthony vs. LeBron James is equivilant to Glen Robinson vs. Magic Johnson.
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by fgrep15 on Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:01 am
Psycho Jackal wrote:Way to go King James.
I think he deserves it, for all the "experience" Melo has had in College, he should have not been outshined by a Highschooler.
LeBron deserved this award. 19 year olds scoring averaging whatever he's averaging...is something special. Carmelo will be a good player, not an extra-ordinary player.
I liked the way Rens put it:
Who would you choose?
Carmelo Anthony vs. LeBron James is equivilant to Glen Robinson vs. Magic Johnson.[/b]
That's such a dumb comment people make, what do you want him to do hog the ball so he beats Lebron' scoring average, which he did while taking less shots.
Also how can it count against him for going to college, and some guy that's 7 months younger than him didn't.
Anyways, I don't think Lebron outshined him beacause they were both equally as good in their play this season.
The award isn't about what will this guy be in the future, its about what he has done this year.
I mean Lebron even made Cav's record in 5th All-Time minutes played in a season, 5th all time in field goals attempted, and 4th All-Time in turnovers, not the greatest records but still.
Carmelo: LeBron:
PPG: 21.1 PPG: 21.0
RPG: 6.1 RPG: 5.5
APG: 2.8 APG: 5.9
SPG: 1.20 SPG: 1.63
BPG: .51 BPG: .74
TO's: 3.04 TO's: 3.44
FG%: 42.7 FG%: 41.6
FT%: 77.7 FT%: 75.4
3P%: 32.1 3P%: 29.4
Melo wins 6-3, but not too many big diffreneces but in assists. The thing is we aren't forgetting the assists, but we all know Lebron is a better passer, but we also know that he was playing the 1 and the 2 and generally players at those positions get more assists than other players on the team.
The other thing is that Melo has averaged about 26 points per game since the break to Lebrons 22
In the end they've both pretty much equaled each other out, and since people seemed to use making the playoffs last year as an excuse with Yao and Amare, why didn't they us it this year.
Also what's to say Melo can't pass, look at Mike Miller, how many people knew he could pass, or even had good enough handles to play the point. Then J-Will get's injured and he's playing point and putting up double digit assists numbers, or Joe Johnson, if you didn't know about the guy before you wouldn't think he was a good passer.
Another example is Mike Dunleavy, the guys a very good passer but only averaging 2.9 assists a game this year.
Last edited by fgrep15 on Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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fgrep15 - Posts: 3172
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by Jackal on Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:46 am
I'm sorry you find it such a dumb comment. My apologies for that, however, I find the following things dumb:
Eh, you bolded APG, I hope you didnt count that in your six in which he beats out LeBron. Because...last time I checked, 5.9 is more than 2.8...but that's last time I checked ofcourse.
Now, lets break this down a bit:
Points: 21.1 to 21.0: Seriously, it's a 0.1 point difference, are you joking?
Rebounds*: 6.1 to 5.5: You make an excuse for Melo that Bron plays at 1 & 2 that's why he get's more assists, this makes your argument credible right?
*In this case, Melo plays more at the 3, that's why he gets more rebounds. A 0.6 rebounding difference only, if he's playing SF, shouldnt he get a larger amount than that? Another something I would like to throw in: Bron has Boozer & Ilgauskus who grab 11.4 & 8.1 rebounds respectively whereas Melo has Camby & Nenê, with 10.1 & 6.5. So when Bron is still managing to get those 5.5 rebounds, that's pretty impressive.
Bron beats him in steals by 0.43 steals more, Bron beats him in blocks by 0.23 blocks more, Bron does turn the ball over, but since your arguments rule, it's probably because he plays SG & PG. That's the reason he turns the ball over more often.
Free-throw & 3 Point percentages, those are the only two real categories he legitimately beats out LeBron, but again, I would expect that from a player who's been trained/coached by better coaches by attending college.
See, all of these things, I find them so dumb.
The awards are given by people who watch the NBA day in and day out, they will give the award to whoever they think has made the biggest impact. It's got alot to do with hype, but what do you expect from some highschooler who's averaging 20-5-5? If you don't expect hype, you should get your head out of the sand like ostrich's. Anyways, stop moping...
I still stand by Rens' comparison: Carmelo will turn out to be a Robinsin type player, Bron is gonna accomplish more.
Carmelo: LeBron:
PPG: 21.1 PPG: 21.0
RPG: 6.1 RPG: 5.5
APG: 2.8 APG: 5.9
SPG: 1.20 SPG: 1.63
BPG: .51 BPG: .74
TO's: 3.04 TO's: 3.44
FG%: 42.7 FG%: 41.6
FT%: 77.7 FT%: 75.4
3P%: 32.1 3P%: 29.4
Eh, you bolded APG, I hope you didnt count that in your six in which he beats out LeBron. Because...last time I checked, 5.9 is more than 2.8...but that's last time I checked ofcourse.
Now, lets break this down a bit:
Points: 21.1 to 21.0: Seriously, it's a 0.1 point difference, are you joking?
Rebounds*: 6.1 to 5.5: You make an excuse for Melo that Bron plays at 1 & 2 that's why he get's more assists, this makes your argument credible right?
*In this case, Melo plays more at the 3, that's why he gets more rebounds. A 0.6 rebounding difference only, if he's playing SF, shouldnt he get a larger amount than that? Another something I would like to throw in: Bron has Boozer & Ilgauskus who grab 11.4 & 8.1 rebounds respectively whereas Melo has Camby & Nenê, with 10.1 & 6.5. So when Bron is still managing to get those 5.5 rebounds, that's pretty impressive.
The thing is we aren't forgetting the assists, but we all know Lebron is a better passer, but we also know that he was playing the 1 and the 2 and generally players at those positions get more assists than other players on the team.
Bron beats him in steals by 0.43 steals more, Bron beats him in blocks by 0.23 blocks more, Bron does turn the ball over, but since your arguments rule, it's probably because he plays SG & PG. That's the reason he turns the ball over more often.
Free-throw & 3 Point percentages, those are the only two real categories he legitimately beats out LeBron, but again, I would expect that from a player who's been trained/coached by better coaches by attending college.
See, all of these things, I find them so dumb.
The awards are given by people who watch the NBA day in and day out, they will give the award to whoever they think has made the biggest impact. It's got alot to do with hype, but what do you expect from some highschooler who's averaging 20-5-5? If you don't expect hype, you should get your head out of the sand like ostrich's. Anyways, stop moping...
I still stand by Rens' comparison: Carmelo will turn out to be a Robinsin type player, Bron is gonna accomplish more.
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by Ruff Ryder on Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:16 am
I am pretty confident they will be co-rookies. Remember when Bron had 41? Then Melo had 41 the next night? The difference was Bron had 13 assists. But Melo took his team to the playoffs. It just seems like when one appears to get an advantage, the other one counters it.
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by fgrep15 on Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:26 am
Don't try and "clap back" by saying its a mistake, even if I counted assist which I didn't, I didn't count turnovers so its still the same.
The more turnovers are obviously because he handles the ball more.
Wait what did it say in my post,
Offensive Rebounds, Melo isn't that big a defensive rebounder but he crashes the offensive glass. Melo gets 6.2% of his teams offensive boards, and 10.6% of the defensive rebounds.
Lebron gets 3.1% of the offensive rebounds, and 10.4% of the defensive rebounds.
The team rebound chances are Denver: 5983 to Cleveland: 6424, their are 11 more chances to grab a rebound during the game in Cleveland than in Denver. I don't want to say this because people like to use this too much but Lebron also plays more minutes.
The other thing is you think yourself, how much difference is their getting the ball as a 2 guard and a 3 guard. In the NBA their isn't much difference being a 2 or 3 than who is quarding you, they're generally both wing players. Now if it was a PF or something, their is no comparison between rebounds there. PG's even have about the same chance of grabbing a board as a 2 or 3, but most of them don't want to or are too small, ask Kidd and Francis.
I could also say something stupid like he's 6'8 and more atheletic, but what rebounds come down to is your willigness to go after boards.
Where did I say he didn't? Didn't I say 6-3, I didn't say 9-0, that was my fault I though I had highlited both sides but I didn't. Also yes it is because he plays SG % PG, its generally because he handles the ball more, because their are shooting guards that don't handle the ball much, but most do and since we all should have watched Lebron at least a few games we know he does.
Playing SG & PG could also be why he gets more blocks, and gambling more on defense could also be why he gets more steals, but actually its also because he's much more atheletic and quicker, but he does gamble too much at times but so does Melo, rookie things.
That's great :thumbsup:
Yes they are, but many are very biased, and they don't necesarily give it to who has made the biggest impact because that could go in Melo's favour.
Obviouly I know the hype has taken over a lot of minds, but if you see all the fan POLL's on NBA.com, Melo beats Lebron by about 60% to 30%
No need to tell me to get my head out of the sand because obviously I know that, but should hype affect how they vote for the award, not neccesarily but obviously it does.
I am actually not moping, its just that I've heard the highschool and 19 year old thing too much, they're 7 months apart and yes Melo did go to college but why should that discredit him. I really didn't and still don't really care who wins it, so its not a bother to me
Like I said, look at all those players, if the comparison is taking the aspect of assists, then we won't really know unless Melo is put in the same position to handle the ball that much in order to create for his teammates.
How many of us thought KG would average 5 or 6 assists a game after he averaged 1.8 in his rookie season?
Or Joe Johnson with 1.5 assists, and even per 48 minutes only 3.4 assists a game, or RJ most people wouldn't have known he could pass if Kidd and K-Mart hadn't went down and he put up those nice assists numbers.
Note: I don't think Melo is going to be putting up 5 dimes a game, but I think he could be a guy averaging about 4.
Anyways, Dwyane Wade should have but wouldn't have won it if he didn't get injured, but he did get injured so..............
One thing that I've said a few times though, Lebron needs and likely next year will be moving to the three. If you watch a lot of Cleveland games he gets beat a lot by PG's and 2 guards, and if Cleveland can get a good 2 in the summer, they'll make him a 3. His game and his body, really his body, his game can play the 1,2 and 3 are fit for the 3 position.
Cleveland is a team to watch out for next year, just imagine Wagner learning PG skills, he can be the sixth man as a backup at the 1 and 2.
The more turnovers are obviously because he handles the ball more.
Points: 21.1 to 21.0: Seriously, it's a 0.1 point difference, are you joking?
Wait what did it say in my post,
, Oh no, their it is.Melo wins 6-3, but not too many big diffreneces but in assists
Rebounds*: 6.1 to 5.5: You make an excuse for Melo that Bron plays at 1 & 2 that's why he get's more assists, this makes your argument credible right?
*In this case, Melo plays more at the 3, that's why he gets more rebounds. A 0.6 rebounding difference only, if he's playing SF, shouldnt he get a larger amount than that? Another something I would like to throw in: Bron has Boozer & Ilgauskus who grab 11.4 & 8.1 rebounds respectively whereas Melo has Camby & Nenê, with 10.1 & 6.5. So when Bron is still managing to get those 5.5 rebounds, that's pretty impressive.
Offensive Rebounds, Melo isn't that big a defensive rebounder but he crashes the offensive glass. Melo gets 6.2% of his teams offensive boards, and 10.6% of the defensive rebounds.
Lebron gets 3.1% of the offensive rebounds, and 10.4% of the defensive rebounds.
The team rebound chances are Denver: 5983 to Cleveland: 6424, their are 11 more chances to grab a rebound during the game in Cleveland than in Denver. I don't want to say this because people like to use this too much but Lebron also plays more minutes.
The other thing is you think yourself, how much difference is their getting the ball as a 2 guard and a 3 guard. In the NBA their isn't much difference being a 2 or 3 than who is quarding you, they're generally both wing players. Now if it was a PF or something, their is no comparison between rebounds there. PG's even have about the same chance of grabbing a board as a 2 or 3, but most of them don't want to or are too small, ask Kidd and Francis.
I could also say something stupid like he's 6'8 and more atheletic, but what rebounds come down to is your willigness to go after boards.
Bron beats him in steals by 0.43 steals more, Bron beats him in blocks by 0.23 blocks more, Bron does turn the ball over, but since your arguments rule, it's probably because he plays SG & PG. That's the reason he turns the ball over more often.
Where did I say he didn't? Didn't I say 6-3, I didn't say 9-0, that was my fault I though I had highlited both sides but I didn't. Also yes it is because he plays SG % PG, its generally because he handles the ball more, because their are shooting guards that don't handle the ball much, but most do and since we all should have watched Lebron at least a few games we know he does.
Playing SG & PG could also be why he gets more blocks, and gambling more on defense could also be why he gets more steals, but actually its also because he's much more atheletic and quicker, but he does gamble too much at times but so does Melo, rookie things.
Free-throw & 3 Point percentages, those are the only two real categories he legitimately beats out LeBron, but again, I would expect that from a player who's be trained/coached by better coaches by attending college
That's great :thumbsup:
The awards are given by people who watch the NBA day in and day out, they will give the award to whoever they think has made the biggest impact. It's got alot to do with hype, but what do you expect from some highschooler who's averaging 20-5-5? If you don't expect hype, you should get your head out of the sand like ostrich's. Anyways, stop moping...
Yes they are, but many are very biased, and they don't necesarily give it to who has made the biggest impact because that could go in Melo's favour.
Obviouly I know the hype has taken over a lot of minds, but if you see all the fan POLL's on NBA.com, Melo beats Lebron by about 60% to 30%
No need to tell me to get my head out of the sand because obviously I know that, but should hype affect how they vote for the award, not neccesarily but obviously it does.
I am actually not moping, its just that I've heard the highschool and 19 year old thing too much, they're 7 months apart and yes Melo did go to college but why should that discredit him. I really didn't and still don't really care who wins it, so its not a bother to me
I still stand by Rens' comparison: Carmelo will turn out to be a Robinsin type player, Bron is gonna accomplish more.
Like I said, look at all those players, if the comparison is taking the aspect of assists, then we won't really know unless Melo is put in the same position to handle the ball that much in order to create for his teammates.
How many of us thought KG would average 5 or 6 assists a game after he averaged 1.8 in his rookie season?
Or Joe Johnson with 1.5 assists, and even per 48 minutes only 3.4 assists a game, or RJ most people wouldn't have known he could pass if Kidd and K-Mart hadn't went down and he put up those nice assists numbers.
Note: I don't think Melo is going to be putting up 5 dimes a game, but I think he could be a guy averaging about 4.
Anyways, Dwyane Wade should have but wouldn't have won it if he didn't get injured, but he did get injured so..............
One thing that I've said a few times though, Lebron needs and likely next year will be moving to the three. If you watch a lot of Cleveland games he gets beat a lot by PG's and 2 guards, and if Cleveland can get a good 2 in the summer, they'll make him a 3. His game and his body, really his body, his game can play the 1,2 and 3 are fit for the 3 position.
Cleveland is a team to watch out for next year, just imagine Wagner learning PG skills, he can be the sixth man as a backup at the 1 and 2.
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by magius on Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:44 am
i dont know if the playoff thing should be taken into consideration considering melo has had a better team to work with -- he has a top 10 point guard in andre miller, a defensive presence inside in camby, and a couple of perimiter threats, along with a much deeper bench, creating a well built team just waiting for a star.
true, bron has a top 5 centre in ilguaskaz and a tough garbage man in boozer -- but then what? maybe if mcinnis and wagner had been around a whole season you could make a case, but even then, not likely. the bench is generally pathetic so they're not going to outscore anyone unless bron hits 30, ilguascaz 20, booz 20 every night because you can only realistically expect 20-30 optimistically from the rest of them every night. denver has the same scoring efficiency, but they also have good interior defense from camby and hilario which means they can win on defense. you can argue that then maybe cleveland should win with defense too, but they cant.... to be a good defensive team you need a defensive stalwart on the inside, look at the best defensive teams in the league. so if bron's inherited a team that one cant outscore most teams, and two cant defend and even then almost made the playoffs (even in the east), well, then i personally find it amazing.
besides, only micheal jordan and oscar robertson have ever averaged 20 5 and 5 in their rookie season so i guess those extra assists do matter
i think if bron were in melos shoes and melo were in brons denver would be better and cleveland would be worse. melo's good, bron's better. we cant go around dualing the rookie trophy every season(!) -- it'll devalue it!
anyway you can also take into consideration that the cavs team complexion has undergone a lot of change during the season while denver has generally stayed the same, and we all know how important team chemistry is. i mean if youre the new guy and theirs a lot of old guys to make the atmosphere more comfortable it's obviously going to be an easier transition, but if you're the new guy and suddenly find yourself in a room full of new guys or new guys coming in after you, well, then i guess its harder.
true, bron has a top 5 centre in ilguaskaz and a tough garbage man in boozer -- but then what? maybe if mcinnis and wagner had been around a whole season you could make a case, but even then, not likely. the bench is generally pathetic so they're not going to outscore anyone unless bron hits 30, ilguascaz 20, booz 20 every night because you can only realistically expect 20-30 optimistically from the rest of them every night. denver has the same scoring efficiency, but they also have good interior defense from camby and hilario which means they can win on defense. you can argue that then maybe cleveland should win with defense too, but they cant.... to be a good defensive team you need a defensive stalwart on the inside, look at the best defensive teams in the league. so if bron's inherited a team that one cant outscore most teams, and two cant defend and even then almost made the playoffs (even in the east), well, then i personally find it amazing.
besides, only micheal jordan and oscar robertson have ever averaged 20 5 and 5 in their rookie season so i guess those extra assists do matter
i think if bron were in melos shoes and melo were in brons denver would be better and cleveland would be worse. melo's good, bron's better. we cant go around dualing the rookie trophy every season(!) -- it'll devalue it!
anyway you can also take into consideration that the cavs team complexion has undergone a lot of change during the season while denver has generally stayed the same, and we all know how important team chemistry is. i mean if youre the new guy and theirs a lot of old guys to make the atmosphere more comfortable it's obviously going to be an easier transition, but if you're the new guy and suddenly find yourself in a room full of new guys or new guys coming in after you, well, then i guess its harder.
Last edited by magius on Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by -BHZMAFIA- on Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:54 am
well the thing is, melo shoots better than bron while he averages more ppg and rpg. You also have to look at how many mpg bron plays. Melo plays less mins and does just about everything bron does. He is also in the midwest division in the western conference! i think this is a rip off IMO.
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by Jackal on Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:39 pm
LeBron gets 4.2 defensive rebounds compared to Carmelo's 3.8, however Melo does get more offensive rebounds compared to LeBron.
Carmelo gets more offensive rebounds because he takes smaller players into the post and has the ability to rebound the ball again if he misses.
Carmelo also played lesser minutes than LeBron, so who knows...he could've shot some more.
When LeBron is on the floor, he takes 28.1% of the shots, whereas Carmelo takes 28.5%.
LeBron assisted on 25.7% of his teammates baskets, Carmelo managed a mere 12.7%.
I'm not clapping back at anything, I was just curious as to why it was in bold.
I don't know much about chances I wasnt too good at those anyways, but did you take into consideration that Carmelo has more rebounds due to Nenê's absence? He's been injured, so, wouldnt this affect Carmelo's rebounding statistics going up? Ponder it.
Make up your mind, you justify why Carmelo doesnt have as many assists (due to him being a SF). When I do the same thing (justifying why LeBron has less rebounds compared to Carmelo), you turn around and tell me both are wing players. That would mean that LeBron is a better overall player, wouldnt you say? We'll do it your way, basically both are wing players, LeBron is better because he scores, rebounds PLUS he assists. Carmelo scores & rebounds. Those bloody assists make a difference!!
You contradict yourself too much, first you say LeBron gets more assists because he's a SG/PG, when it suits you, he's just a wing player (SG/SF).
Thanx for the input Magius, your posts always have a usefull side to whatever it is I'm trying to point out.
Simply put: Carmelo is good, LeBron is better. Good one Magius.
Carmelo gets more offensive rebounds because he takes smaller players into the post and has the ability to rebound the ball again if he misses.
Carmelo also played lesser minutes than LeBron, so who knows...he could've shot some more.
When LeBron is on the floor, he takes 28.1% of the shots, whereas Carmelo takes 28.5%.
LeBron assisted on 25.7% of his teammates baskets, Carmelo managed a mere 12.7%.
I'm not clapping back at anything, I was just curious as to why it was in bold.
I don't know much about chances I wasnt too good at those anyways, but did you take into consideration that Carmelo has more rebounds due to Nenê's absence? He's been injured, so, wouldnt this affect Carmelo's rebounding statistics going up? Ponder it.
Make up your mind, you justify why Carmelo doesnt have as many assists (due to him being a SF). When I do the same thing (justifying why LeBron has less rebounds compared to Carmelo), you turn around and tell me both are wing players. That would mean that LeBron is a better overall player, wouldnt you say? We'll do it your way, basically both are wing players, LeBron is better because he scores, rebounds PLUS he assists. Carmelo scores & rebounds. Those bloody assists make a difference!!
You contradict yourself too much, first you say LeBron gets more assists because he's a SG/PG, when it suits you, he's just a wing player (SG/SF).
Thanx for the input Magius, your posts always have a usefull side to whatever it is I'm trying to point out.
Simply put: Carmelo is good, LeBron is better. Good one Magius.
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by The Big Racist on Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:18 pm
magius wrote:its wierd........ i'm almost like you're........ bitch
Im glad you got it yourself.
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by fgrep15 on Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:27 pm
Like I told you already I don't care who wins it but if you want a duel then lets go :
The average height of an NBA small forward is about 6'8. Carmelo is 6'7, he's not taking smaller players in the post. I could just argue that Lebron is taking guys about 6'3 (at PG), and 6'5-6'6 (at SG) in the post. Also like I also said, their are 11 more chances for grab a rebound on the Cavs than on the Nuggets
Then he would have scored even more, that's the point, he's scoring more while taking less shots.
True, he takes a higher percentage of his team's shots, and for his minutes he takes more shots but the whole idea is that if he took more he'd score even more.
Why is Payton averaging only 5.5 assists a game this year, and even per 48 minutes is 2.3 assists less than last year. Promary ball handler, and who gets the most touches.
I like Nene, a lot, so I'm not ripping him but he's not that good a rebounder, and he's only missed 5 games towards the end, and Melo's rebounds were actually higher in the beginning of the season.
Let me repeat it again, the assists are due to him playing PG and also handling the ball more, Melo gets less assists because he plays small forward and in the league the majority of three's don't handle the ball much as playmakers with their being exceptions with guys like Mashburn, Antoine etc.
Next, why is Artest called one of the best perimeter defenders even though he plays the 3. We all know that in the league, 2 and 3's are basically wing players.
Why does a guy like Tmac get more rebounds than Jerry Stackhouse when he's playing the 3 and Tmac the 2. For the PG, SG and SF, it's all about willigness to get boards, Marion doesn't get 9 boards a game because he's a three, he gets them because he goes after the rebound before running the break and he crashes the offensive glass.
Now just to illustrate, this is the general setup in an NBA game:
OR........
In the first one the SF is a wing, and in the second one they're in the corner, just about as far out as the SG or even PG is from the basket.
Like I said the assists do make a difference but you have to consider it, its like if its a battle between and PG and a SG, of course the assists will make a difference but you have to consider that the SG isn't going to get as many assists as the PG unless he's playing as a PG on his team.
I did not contradict myself at all, I said he plays the 1 and 2 thats why he gets the assists because those players are most of the time, not always, the ones that are counted on to create for the team.
I'll even give you another example, look at David Wesley, playing as the point he could average anything from 6-8 assists a game but he's averaging 2.9 this year. Why? It is because he doesn't handle the ball that much, and isn't counted on to create for teammates as much as Baron, Armstrong or Mash when he's there are.
If you even want another example, look at Mike Bibby, the guy could average 8 assists a game if he wanted too but he can't do that on the Kings with the ball running through the big men.
Look at Brad Miller, who knew he could pass till the offense ran through him when he became a King (Sacramento King that is).
Who knew Ray Allen could average 5.9 assists a game till he was playing PG for Seattle last year.
Who knew Brent Barry could average 5-6 assists till he became a higher ranked ball handler and a PG.
Don't think I'm biased towards Carmelo or anything but I'm just telling the truth. If people say Carmelo made the playoffs, I can bring a whole new story to support Lebron.
If the say Carmelo had a much much better team I can bring the whole load to show how Denver did have a better team but it wasn't soo much better than Clevelands, and even then still that Cleveland's team wasn't set at the beginning of the season and the real missing part a real PG (McInnis) and some veteran playrs were only inserted during the middle but Denver had their team since the pre-season.
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plainde ... 271543.xml
Their's so many things but in the end it basically all cancels out, and the both performed equally well, I do think Lebron will be the better player later on but for their rookie season he was not the better player.
:
Carmelo gets more offensive rebounds because he takes smaller players into the post and has the ability to rebound the ball again if he misses.
The average height of an NBA small forward is about 6'8. Carmelo is 6'7, he's not taking smaller players in the post. I could just argue that Lebron is taking guys about 6'3 (at PG), and 6'5-6'6 (at SG) in the post. Also like I also said, their are 11 more chances for grab a rebound on the Cavs than on the Nuggets
Carmelo also played lesser minutes than LeBron, so who knows...he could've shot some more.
Then he would have scored even more, that's the point, he's scoring more while taking less shots.
When LeBron is on the floor, he takes 28.1% of the shots, whereas Carmelo takes 28.5%.
True, he takes a higher percentage of his team's shots, and for his minutes he takes more shots but the whole idea is that if he took more he'd score even more.
LeBron assisted on 25.7% of his teammates baskets, Carmelo managed a mere 12.7%.
Why is Payton averaging only 5.5 assists a game this year, and even per 48 minutes is 2.3 assists less than last year. Promary ball handler, and who gets the most touches.
I don't know much about chances I wasnt too good at those anyways, but did you take into consideration that Carmelo has more rebounds due to Nenê's absence? He's been injured, so, wouldnt this affect Carmelo's rebounding statistics going up? Ponder it.
I like Nene, a lot, so I'm not ripping him but he's not that good a rebounder, and he's only missed 5 games towards the end, and Melo's rebounds were actually higher in the beginning of the season.
Make up your mind, you justify why Carmelo doesnt have as many assists (due to him being a SF). When I do the same thing (justifying why LeBron has less rebounds compared to Carmelo), you turn around and tell me both are wing players. That would mean that LeBron is a better overall player, wouldnt you say? We'll do it your way, basically both are wing players, LeBron is better because he scores, rebounds PLUS he assists. Carmelo scores & rebounds. Those bloody assists make a difference!!
Let me repeat it again, the assists are due to him playing PG and also handling the ball more, Melo gets less assists because he plays small forward and in the league the majority of three's don't handle the ball much as playmakers with their being exceptions with guys like Mashburn, Antoine etc.
Next, why is Artest called one of the best perimeter defenders even though he plays the 3. We all know that in the league, 2 and 3's are basically wing players.
Why does a guy like Tmac get more rebounds than Jerry Stackhouse when he's playing the 3 and Tmac the 2. For the PG, SG and SF, it's all about willigness to get boards, Marion doesn't get 9 boards a game because he's a three, he gets them because he goes after the rebound before running the break and he crashes the offensive glass.
Now just to illustrate, this is the general setup in an NBA game:
OR........
In the first one the SF is a wing, and in the second one they're in the corner, just about as far out as the SG or even PG is from the basket.
Like I said the assists do make a difference but you have to consider it, its like if its a battle between and PG and a SG, of course the assists will make a difference but you have to consider that the SG isn't going to get as many assists as the PG unless he's playing as a PG on his team.
You contradict yourself too much, first you say LeBron gets more assists because he's a SG/PG, when it suits you, he's just a wing player (SG/SF).
I did not contradict myself at all, I said he plays the 1 and 2 thats why he gets the assists because those players are most of the time, not always, the ones that are counted on to create for the team.
I'll even give you another example, look at David Wesley, playing as the point he could average anything from 6-8 assists a game but he's averaging 2.9 this year. Why? It is because he doesn't handle the ball that much, and isn't counted on to create for teammates as much as Baron, Armstrong or Mash when he's there are.
If you even want another example, look at Mike Bibby, the guy could average 8 assists a game if he wanted too but he can't do that on the Kings with the ball running through the big men.
Look at Brad Miller, who knew he could pass till the offense ran through him when he became a King (Sacramento King that is).
Who knew Ray Allen could average 5.9 assists a game till he was playing PG for Seattle last year.
Who knew Brent Barry could average 5-6 assists till he became a higher ranked ball handler and a PG.
Don't think I'm biased towards Carmelo or anything but I'm just telling the truth. If people say Carmelo made the playoffs, I can bring a whole new story to support Lebron.
If the say Carmelo had a much much better team I can bring the whole load to show how Denver did have a better team but it wasn't soo much better than Clevelands, and even then still that Cleveland's team wasn't set at the beginning of the season and the real missing part a real PG (McInnis) and some veteran playrs were only inserted during the middle but Denver had their team since the pre-season.
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plainde ... 271543.xml
Their's so many things but in the end it basically all cancels out, and the both performed equally well, I do think Lebron will be the better player later on but for their rookie season he was not the better player.
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fgrep15 - Posts: 3172
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by fgrep15 on Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:05 pm
Yes, my mistake, but still no height advantage over other SF's, I was going by the draft camp listings, not his listings on NBA.com (didn't check) 6'6.25" without shoes and 6'7.5" with shoes.
If you wanted to know, LJ is 6'7.25" without shoes, and 6'8 with shoes, and Wade is 6'3.25" without shoes, and 6'4.25" with shoes .
If you wanted to know, LJ is 6'7.25" without shoes, and 6'8 with shoes, and Wade is 6'3.25" without shoes, and 6'4.25" with shoes
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fgrep15 - Posts: 3172
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by Jowe on Sun Apr 18, 2004 9:00 pm
Carmelo gets more offensive rebounds because he takes smaller players into the post and has the ability to rebound the ball again if he misses.
Thats the whole point of basketball, and you LeBron has no mismatches?
If anything Bron should be getting more rebounds, and scoring more, with his height advantage since he plays PG, SG or watever the hell he plays on a given night.
So your saying Carmelo is in a easier situation with Andre and Camby etc.. well his team is in one of the hardest divisions and is definetly in the stronger conference.
LeBron doesn't have sloutches on his team as well, they have Big Z who's an All-Star, Boozer who is a star in the making, and LeBron is suppose to be the Point Guard God of the next thousand years
and they are in teh easiest division, and in teh eastern conference..
So if u work it out, each team has 1 all star, a star and a great rookie..
then Denver manages to make the playoffs in the west and the cavs can't in the east?
Carmelo should be the rookie of the year over LeBron, who is just a hyped up ball hog...
Fee Nick's Uns [15-10] says:
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Fee Nick's Uns [15-10] says:
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Jowe - Posts: 3451
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by Stevan on Mon Apr 19, 2004 12:26 am
You could argue (not that I will) that Lebron James spent a lot more time with the ball in his hands, playing PG during stretches in the season, PG being the most difficult position in the NBA. You could argue that Andre Miller is a leader on the Nuggets. You could also say that the Cavs are weaker than the Nuggets and there was much more pressure on James.
But why would you say any of that irrelevant stuff when Kirk Hinrich is the rookie of the year?
(just joking)...
But why would you say any of that irrelevant stuff when Kirk Hinrich is the rookie of the year?
(just joking)...-
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by Jackal on Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:06 am
You all don't take into consideration as to how the arrival of LeBron James has turned the franchise around, not only in winning but also in the players' attitudes, Z was complaining way too much last year, Boozer was zilch plus you had Ricky Davis, enough said. IMHO, they were the second most confused team in the league (first, being Portland ofcourse).
James didnt only bring a good game which in turn doubled their season wins, but the team also started playing...like a team. LeBron makes the players around him better, I don't think Carmelo does this, maybe he has the ability, but he hasn't shown much of it.
I think KevC made that "are stats more important" thread, everyone went for player B, because his stats were more all around, can't you see that Player B = LeBron James & player A, who scores more, is Carmelo Anthony?
The Denver Nuggets' chemistry was not too bad, they all got along. As has been said, he wasn't given responsibility to turn this franchise around, all the pressure was not on Carmelo, he had/has Miller to take lead the Nuggets, he didnt take charge of this team. LeBron James took charge of the Cavaliers, when he was drafted, he said he would change this team, he got Z to shutup, he got Boozer to play awesome (although that's largely due to Boozer himself) all in all, LeBron James made his team better. Carmelo's team wasnt all that bad to begin with.
You have your opinions, I have mine. Like Stevan said, playing PG is one of the toughest in the NBA, on top of that you have to live upto the hype/expectations of people. I, for one, didnt think he could, I predicted he would average 12-13 points at the most, 5-6 rebounds and 2-3 assists. LeBron James is the real deal, not only did he surpass my expectations, he did it when his team needed him to perform, sure on some nights he was off, but which experienced superstar doesnt have an off night? Oh yeah, this was a rookie.
Way to go once again LeBron, you deserved this award imho.
Martin.
James didnt only bring a good game which in turn doubled their season wins, but the team also started playing...like a team. LeBron makes the players around him better, I don't think Carmelo does this, maybe he has the ability, but he hasn't shown much of it.
I think KevC made that "are stats more important" thread, everyone went for player B, because his stats were more all around, can't you see that Player B = LeBron James & player A, who scores more, is Carmelo Anthony?
The Denver Nuggets' chemistry was not too bad, they all got along. As has been said, he wasn't given responsibility to turn this franchise around, all the pressure was not on Carmelo, he had/has Miller to take lead the Nuggets, he didnt take charge of this team. LeBron James took charge of the Cavaliers, when he was drafted, he said he would change this team, he got Z to shutup, he got Boozer to play awesome (although that's largely due to Boozer himself) all in all, LeBron James made his team better. Carmelo's team wasnt all that bad to begin with.
You have your opinions, I have mine. Like Stevan said, playing PG is one of the toughest in the NBA, on top of that you have to live upto the hype/expectations of people. I, for one, didnt think he could, I predicted he would average 12-13 points at the most, 5-6 rebounds and 2-3 assists. LeBron James is the real deal, not only did he surpass my expectations, he did it when his team needed him to perform, sure on some nights he was off, but which experienced superstar doesnt have an off night? Oh yeah, this was a rookie.
Way to go once again LeBron, you deserved this award imho.
Martin.
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by fgrep15 on Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:14 am
LeBron doesn't have sloutches on his team as well, they have Big Z who's an All-Star, Boozer who is a star in the making, and LeBron is suppose to be the Point Guard God of the next thousand years and they are in teh easiest division, and in teh eastern conference..
Very true, really right now the team comparisons aren't really different in the starting lineup, basically trades of offense and defense in the positions, the difference is the bench, not in talent but in experience and having shooters on the bench.
Also the Cavs were in dissarry in the beginning of the season with there being mixed roles, no leader, no veteran leadership, and no scrappers. With the new players coming in, pieces of the puzzle were being filled, and finally with McInnis it was all set, a leader, a real PG and floor general (McInnis), veteran players, and tough players that could also play well (Williams and Battie).
You all don't take into consideration as to how the arrival of LeBron James has turned the franchise around, not only in winning but also in the players' attitudes, Z was complaining way too much last year, Boozer was zilch plus you had Ricky Davis, enough said. IMHO, they were the second most confused team in the league (first, being Portland ofcourse).
Then you take into consideration how the arrival of Carmelo changed the face of basketball in Denver, read articles, they have fans like never before and people are finally having hope again for the team.
You're also right, like I said about twice now, their was dissarray on the Cavs, if the current Cavs team had been together all year from training camp to preseason to now like the Nuggest were, they would have made the playoffs.
Also don't use Z complaining last year, that was last year, and because Ricky Davis was a hog, the Cavs weren't trying to win last year, and guess what also changed a lot, the coach. Paul Silas?
James didnt only bring a good game which in turn doubled their season wins, but the team also started playing...like a team. LeBron makes the players around him better, I don't think Carmelo does this, maybe he has the ability, but he hasn't shown much of it.
How can you say Denver didn't start playing like a team? Cleveland actually started playing like a team when McInnis came to the team, not because of Lebron or Boozer or any of those guys. We can't know if Melo makes the players around him better or not, he's not in the role to drop dimes all game so what can you do. It's like Tmac, you can't really judge his passing ability because he always has the ball, how can we know if he's actually that good a passer in a real offense where he doesn't have the ball for almost all the 35+ minutes he's on the floor.
I think KevC made that "are stats more important" thread, everyone went for player B, because his stats were more all around, can't you see that Player B = LeBron James & player A, who scores more, is Carmelo Anthony?
Player B was averaging a triple double and 5 more rebounds and 5 more assists than player A. In this case all player B is doing is getting 3 more assists, not even more rebounds or points. It's really not the same situation, and he alos said don't look at team accomplishments, how mant people will say they respect Sura getting a triple double more than Michael Redd averaging 20, 4 and 2, not too many because Sura is on Atlanta.
The Denver Nuggets' chemistry was not too bad, they all got along. As has been said, he wasn't given responsibility to turn this franchise around, all the pressure was not on Carmelo, he had/has Miller to take lead the Nuggets, he didnt take charge of this team. LeBron James took charge of the Cavaliers, when he was drafted, he said he would change this team, he got Z to shutup, he got Boozer to play awesome (although that's largely due to Boozer himself) all in all, LeBron James made his team better. Carmelo's team wasnt all that bad to begin with.
Actually when he was drafted Silas said Davis would likely be the go to guy and Lebron the second on third guy behind him and Z. Andre Miller is not a leader in the vocal sense, the biggest leaders on the Nuggets have been Rodney White and Carmelo.
Also if the pressure wasn't on Melo, who was it on, he didn't have as much hype as Lebron did but the pressure was on him too, I still don't see how that should affect players games, many guys that makes them play even better.
Lebron did not take charge and tell Z to shut up or any of that, that was Paul Silas. Like I said again, that was one of the problems that Cleveland had, they were in dissarry, had no leader, no veterans, and Ricky Davis even though he wasn't playing bad wasn't on good terms with Silas.
You have your opinions, I have mine. Like Stevan said, playing PG is one of the toughest in the NBA, on top of that you have to live upto the hype/expectations of people. I, for one, didnt think he could, I predicted he would average 12-13 points at the most, 5-6 rebounds and 2-3 assists. LeBron James is the real deal, not only did he surpass my expectations, he did it when his team needed him to perform, sure on some nights he was off, but which experienced superstar doesnt have an off night? Oh yeah, this was a rookie.
Playing PG is tough, and Lebron showed that he's not a PG, with him playing point the team just had more turnovers, less assists, and less fast break points. He also get beat a lot by his man and many times would over pursue trying for the steal and let his man get easy baskets.
http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/8403765.htm?1c
I also don't think anyone predicted 2-3 assists, we all saw his passing in highschool, the things that I didn't know is how many minutes he'd get, I didn't expect 40 minutes a night.
Also with the hype I never really look into that living up to the hype thing, I don't see how that really affects how a player plays.
Anyways, Lebron will likely move to the 3 anyways, if he does you should expect even better playing for him, and less getting beat by PG's&SG's. He'll have a point-forward role likely, yes that means he'll handle the ball more than their 2 guard which means he'll get more assists.
go Bron, he deserves it. The only valuable player on Cavs besides him is Boozer. Ilgauskas is a AllStar by deafult, the dude plays no D
If you saw how many times Lebron got beat by his man or went for a steal and gave his man the lane, or how Boozer get killed on the defensive end then you wouldn't say that. The Cavs only good defenders are McInnis, Newble, Williams and Battie. Kedrick and Ollie are pretty decent, but Lebron, Boozer, Wagner, Z are all bad defenders.
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fgrep15 - Posts: 3172
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by air gordon on Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:57 am
Psycho Jackal wrote:You all don't take into consideration as to how the arrival of LeBron James has turned the franchise around, not only in winning but also in the players' attitudes, IMHO, they were the second most confused team in the league (first, being Portland ofcourse).
er how about that coach silas guy?
Psycho Jackal wrote:Z was complaining way too much last year,
Z still complains a lot
get your head out of the sandPsycho Jackal wrote: Boozer was zilch
by the end of last year, boozer proved he was a 2nd round steal they got rid of that guy who by the way played very well down the stretch for the celtsPsycho Jackal wrote:plus you had Ricky Davis, enough said.
Psycho Jackal wrote:James didnt only bring a good game which in turn doubled their season wins, but the team also started playing...like a team. LeBron makes the players around him better, I don't think Carmelo does this, maybe he has the ability, but he hasn't shown much of it. LeBron makes the players around him better, I don't think Carmelo does this, maybe he has the ability, but he hasn't shown much of it...I think KevC made that "are stats more important" thread, everyone went for player B, because his stats were more all around, can't you see that Player B = LeBron James & player A, who scores more, is Carmelo Anthony?.
lol this is poor logic... the 2 rookies in discussion have 2 different games. it seems like the main arguing point of your discussion is that lebron james is the better player overall player who makes his team better...the nuggets more then doubled their win total from last year as well, had more wins then the cavs, and made the playoffs
Psycho Jackal wrote:The Denver Nuggets' chemistry was not too bad, they all got along.
the nuggets had a roster overhaul this past offseason. just because there was no ricky davis on the team for some games doesn't mean there wasn't chemistry issues as well
i don't want to further indulge in your quotes
i think both rookies had good cases to win the award. one didn't really have the decided edge on the other.
let the pissing match continue
Jump.
Scott Skiles answer to the question on how Eddy Curry can become a better rebounder
Scott Skiles answer to the question on how Eddy Curry can become a better rebounder
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air gordon - Posts: 7867
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by Amphatoast on Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:30 am
both deserve it I think..
Carmelo is doing what he was brought to denver to do, score. They brought Andre Miller to run the point and pass the ball. Without Carmelo the Nuggets will be like the Bulls, Warriors & Clippers; looks good on paper, bad at the end of the season. Lets not forget they played in the toguhest division where every team had a winning record unlike the cavs who get to meet the hawks, raptors and bulls 4 times a year. They also got to face the magic, wizards and all the other bummy eastern conference teams more than the nuggets did. Main reason LeBron got it in my opinion was due to all the hype he had gotten. Everyone was all over LeBron so he was the main center of attention.
Carmelo is doing what he was brought to denver to do, score. They brought Andre Miller to run the point and pass the ball. Without Carmelo the Nuggets will be like the Bulls, Warriors & Clippers; looks good on paper, bad at the end of the season. Lets not forget they played in the toguhest division where every team had a winning record unlike the cavs who get to meet the hawks, raptors and bulls 4 times a year. They also got to face the magic, wizards and all the other bummy eastern conference teams more than the nuggets did. Main reason LeBron got it in my opinion was due to all the hype he had gotten. Everyone was all over LeBron so he was the main center of attention.
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by EGarrett on Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:02 am
The ROY Title is going to the right person.
Melo is one of the best rookies the NBA has seen in years...but Lebron has overcome greater expectations...had a bigger impact on the league...has a brighter future and is putting up better numbers.
The Nuggets getting to the playoffs (probably to lose quickly in the first round) isn't enough to overcome that.
Melo is one of the best rookies the NBA has seen in years...but Lebron has overcome greater expectations...had a bigger impact on the league...has a brighter future and is putting up better numbers.
The Nuggets getting to the playoffs (probably to lose quickly in the first round) isn't enough to overcome that.
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