Is Tim Duncan the greatest PF ever?

[EGarrett]

Saw this topic on Hawksquawk.net...

Charles Barkely recently said that "Tim Duncan will go down as the greatest power forward ever."

The debate is really between two players I don't like so I can't say I care much. Duncan does have more championships than Malone ever will (2 to 0) and Duncan still has lots of years left.

[.]

Good topic.

This is a question that I think about alot.....will he be the greatest PF ever if he isnt already?

Lets take a look at there numbers troughout their career

Years: 6 - 18
MVP's: 2 - 2
championships: 2 - 0
PPG: 22.9 - 25.4
RPG: 12.3 - 10.2
APG: 3.2 - 3.5
BPG: 2.5 - .78
SPG: .78 - 1.4
FG%: 51.0 - 51.7
FT%: 71.0 - 74.2

Malone edges Duncan in Points, Assists, steals, FG& and FT%.
And lets not forget, Duncan is a Powerforward in a centers body, which gives him physical the edge over Malone.

But its real hard to tell who the better PF is, because Malone played 18 years, while Duncan played 6, but he won 2 championships during his career while Malone had 0, and he had 1 of the best Point Guards ever on his team while they were both in their prime, meanwhile Duncan had a aging David Robinson. But lets not forget that Malone played in the era where the East and the West both were very very good conferences, while Duncan has won his championships in the era where the West was taking over, specially last year when the East was a joke.

There are certain things to give Duncan or Malone the edge, Malone is way better at running the fastbreak then Duncan, and he is still doing that after 18 years in the league. While Duncan is a better player in the clutch when you need him.

At this moment, I still give Malone the edge, simply because hes still 1 of the best Power Forwards in the game Imo after 18 years in the league, while Duncan has only played 6 years in the NBA

[Ruff Ryder]

And lets not forget, Duncan is a Powerforward in a centers body, which gives him physical the edge over Malone.

Well Malone weighs about the same as Duncan. The only advantage TD has is his height. 3 inches taller than malone. But Karl is way more muscular than TD. Malones biceps are bigger than his head. So......

I'm not sure if TD will be the greatest PF ever. Who knows....He could go down with and injury like Grant Hill, who looked like the next MJ.

What about KG?

Years: 9
MVP's: 0 (soon to change)
Championships:0
PPG: 20
RPG: 10.8
APG: 4.4
BPG: 1.8
SPG: 1.4
FG%: 48.8
FT%: 75.8

TD wins in points, rebounds, blocks, and FG%. In fg% KG shoots outside alot more than TD. Kg shoots threes a little more often than TD.

KG in his rookie year wasnt given the reigns to his team where as with Duncan, he was expected to produce. KG is still young, only 27 and still can win quite a few championships, and this year looks like it could be the year.

Its hard to say, but it looks like TD edges him for now. We'll see what happens.

[DipSetVC]

If Tim Duncan plays anywhere as long as the Mailman did, not only would Duncan go down as the best power forward ever, he'll go down as one of the greatest players to play the game.

[Robby]

If Tim Duncan plays anywhere as long as the Mailman did, not only would Duncan go down as the best power forward ever, he'll go down as one of the greatest players to play the game.

That most likely will not happen. Up until now, Duncan has missed 20+ games in his career while Malone only missed 10 games in 18 years with the majority due to suspensions.

As far as the championships go, Duncan didn't have to go through Magic's Lakers, Clyde's Blazers, Hakeem's Rockets, and MJ's Bulls. Last year, the Spurs got lucky against the Suns because of Marbury's injury, beating the Lakers was easier because of Shaq's complacency, the Mavs were without their best player and pushed San Antonio to 6 games, and Kings never even got a chance to go against San Antonio. As for 99, they never would have won had Patrick Ewing been able to play in the Finals.

As for Malone having the best point guard, it would have helped had Stockton actually scored a little more instead of constantly looking for the pass.

While Duncan is a better player in the clutch when you need him.

Go watch tapes of Utah before they went to the Finals and then tell me he isn't a clutch player. I still remember reading articles from 1996 about how Malone, other than MJ, is the player who plays best in the clutch. How would Duncan had done if he went up against the Bulls in the Finals?

[Jackal]

As far as the championships go, Duncan didn't have to go through Magic's Lakers, Clyde's Blazers, Hakeem's Rockets, and MJ's Bulls. Last year, the Spurs got lucky against the Suns because of Marbury's injury, beating the Lakers was easier because of Shaq's complacency.

Self satisfaction? Explain how you know how Shaq felt satisfied? He did the best he could with his injuries...complacency? How do you know he was self satisfied??

As for 99, they never would have won had Patrick Ewing been able to play in the Finals.

We might never know this for a fact...so don't say it as if it is a fact.

I agree with Robby about Duncan being able to play anything near to 18 seasons. I doubt he'll be able to do it.

Best PF in the history of the league? He could be called that after a few years...perhaps if he wins more, gets better in his production (is that possible?) Anyways, time will tell...

[.]

Go watch tapes of Utah before they went to the Finals and then tell me he isn't a clutch player. I still remember reading articles from 1996 about how Malone, other than MJ, is the player who plays best in the clutch. How would Duncan had done if he went up against the Bulls in the Finals?

Ive only seen a few Utah games from back then, so its near impossible for me to say hes clutch or not, Im just saying what I hear from people who did see him play alot back then and they told me he wasnt really that clutch, as for Duncan.....Ive seen tons of Spurs games where Duncan takes the game over in the closing minutes/seconds.

I dont know how Duncan would play against the Bulls in the finals, no one knows, maybe the Spurs would sweap them.....maybe, I dont know....theres no point for bringing that up

[Bill Russell]

I'd say Duncan's not the best ever... Yet.

[Matthew]

As far as the championships go, Duncan didn't have to go through Magic's Lakers, Clyde's Blazers, Hakeem's Rockets, and MJ's Bulls. Last year, the Spurs got lucky against the Suns because of Marbury's injury, beating the Lakers was easier because of Shaq's complacency, the Mavs were without their best player and pushed San Antonio to 6 games, and Kings never even got a chance to go against San Antonio. As for 99, they never would have won had Patrick Ewing been able to play in the Finals.

I agree with that 100%. As for my case, we are comparing two very different careers. Duncan has peeked early, while malones greatest asset was his longevity. I know Malone has no scoring titles, but just imagine if the nba had asystem like major league baseball, where scoring leaders for each conference were acknowledged. He wouldve had won 7 scoring titles, come 2nd 4 times, and been 3rd on just two occasions during 1988-2000. Thats mind boggling. Then you have the amazing percentage of games played in his career, and the fact his team has never missed the playoffs. I'll take Malone now, but if duncan is consistant for 18 or so years at his level, i'll put him ahead of malone, becuase those rings do account for somthing.

Ive only seen a few Utah games from back then, so its near impossible for me to say hes clutch or not, Im just saying what I hear from people who did see him play alot back then and they told me he wasnt really that clutch

Duncan really was criticised last playoffs for not stepping up, and the common excuse was becuase he was swarmed. If you think that was swarming defense, watch what the bulls did to him with rodman and pippen in 97 and especially 98 series. It wasnt really untill pippens back gave out in 98 until malone started delivering in the finals (game 5 and 6 in that series). Thats when he could go one on one with rodamn, or longely or whoever had to guard him. Sure he had stockton, but stockton couldnt take over a game offensively unless if he got real real hot from the outside. All the pressure was on malone to carry the jazz in the playoffs, and he lead the jazz push against the greatest team of all time. Watch that series if you get a chance and you will see exactly how close the jazz came.

maybe the Spurs would sweap them

Right, so the spurs couldnt sweep the suns or nets last season, but you think its possible they could sweep the best team in league history? lol well i guess its possible that kirk hinrich could dunk on shaq as well

[Fresh8]

Malone should be remembered longer (along with Stockton)-they were just unlucky they didn't win any rings...i mean, at the time the Bulls were probably better but the Jazz were close to them...wat about pitting the Spurs against either one of those teams- I reackon they would probably lose!

And anyway, some real awesome Power FOrward may appear in the next few years and be the greatest PF of all time!

[Amphatoast]

I think i'd need 5-7 more years to make a decision to tell if duncan is the best PF ever. Its still a bit too early in career. Just look what happened to Grant Hill....not saying that will happen to duncan, but we gotta see what happens

[The Big Racist]

specially last year when the East was a joke.

East is still a joke

[Vins15]

specially last year when the East was a joke.

East is still a joke

definatly 6,7,8 seed are not over .500 and 5 seed rite on .500 how sad is that u tell me

[air gordon]

i don't want this turn into a previous thread but i do want to hit a few points...

As for Malone having the best point guard, it would have helped had Stockton actually scored a little more instead of constantly looking for the pass.

i just recently read playing for keeps by david halberstam which included a chapter on this finals, so this is fresh in my mind...
it would have helped more if malone did not constantly come up short (and settle for outside shots) in the game's biggest stage, the nba finals. the bulls defensive plan for the series was to limit stockton since malone's game was very dependent on him, to not double team malone, and to isolate him to be jump shooter. since the bulls coaching staff believed malone wasn't a pure jump shooter, although malone to his credit added a solid jump shot to his game, they would rather live with him taking a perimeter shot then him driving or getting other teammates involved in the jazz offense. possibly you can attribute this to the bulls supreme defense, but malone never showed the ability to be creative and make good shots for himself when the disciplined but predictable jazz offense broke down.

Go watch tapes of Utah before they went to the Finals and then tell me he isn't a clutch player.

the key there is "before they went to the Finals". i give malone credit for hitting those other clutch shots. i just don't think you can consider him being as big of a clutch player as you're making him out to be when he didn't come through in 2 nba finals series.


i'm not even sure who the best PF ever is. i'd consider malone up there amongst the top 5. however i do think duncan has a chance to surpass malone given that he is not yet at the top of his game and he has those 2 rings.

[Matthew]

Playing for keeps is an excellent book. But I'm not critical for malones performance in the finals against the bulls. Chicago had the ultimate gameplan against malone. rodman was all over him, plus pippen, kukoc, longley, all those guys swarmed him when he actually got into the paint. also, about the jumpers not falling, that has to be acredited to more rodman than anything. when longely was on him, malone burned him with his j's. Once pippen went down with his bad back, the structure of the bulls defense changed, and malone was able to post up rodman and get into the paint, or take longely outside, and thats why he started to play how he was capable of.

NOTE: I'm not making excuses for malones play, i just think the excellent team defense of chicago fucked him up rather than malone "choking"

[Andrew]

(My apologies to everyone, this post became much more long-winded than I anticipated. I'm also hoping it makes sense to someone other than myself. )

Tough call. Malone has nearly two decades of NBA experience, and has spent much of that time as a perennial All-Star putting up great numbers on successful teams. But he still hasn't won a title despite being part of some good Utah Jazz teams, paired with another NBA great in John Stockton.

Conversely, Tim Duncan has already won two titles while posting great numbers, but hasn't maintained a standard of excellence for anywhere near as long as the Mailman. In a way, they kind of cancel each other out.

I would be inclined to lean towards the Mailman at this point in time, as he has been one of the top power forwards in the league since his second or third season (I'd say his third, but that's open to debate). As good as the younger players in the league are right now, let's give the players of yesteryear a little credit. Today's All-Stars need to weather a few more storms before they can truly qualify for higher accolades.

But let's also give credit to the new generation of players. Duncan does have two championships and for all the asterisks you can place next to an NBA title, it still takes quite an effort to win it all. He might not have to play 19, 20 years in the league to surpass Malone as the popular choice for being the best power forward in the history of the NBA.

But again, I would personally give Malone the nod at the moment. Not only has he been impressive for nearly 20 seasons in the league, he's also become a yardstick for power forwards coming into the league. By all means, don't dismiss Duncan too quickly, but give credit where credit is due.

Duncan's championships might set him aside if we're talking about leadership or being a winner or stepping up in the clutch, but if we're just ranking all the great power forwards in league history, the Mailman's maintained standard of play is just as strong an argument as Duncan's titles.

Something else to consider:

The fact that Malone is considered a classic power forward is also one of the main reasons I'd still place him above Duncan right now. It's kind of like comparing Magic and Stockton; do you place Stock above Magic because he's the all-time leader in assists, or do you take into account Magic's scoring and rebounding in addition to his assists and court vision? Who is the better point guard? How do you judge when both players have different styles yet are still great point guards? There must be some criteria that seperates them, that being our perception of what a point guard must be.

The same goes for Duncan and Malone. Because Malone remains the prototype NBA power forward, I believe he ranks above Duncan at the power forward position. Because Duncan could also be a centre (and also taking his other accomplishments into consideration) he could be considered the better player. But because Malone is a natural power forward (who's had an impressive career), I rank him higher than Duncan when we're just talking about the best power forwards.

Now, the way things are going it could be Duncan who is eventually considered to be the ideal NBA power forward. But until then the Mailman is the yardstick, so for now he ranks above Duncan.

[Matthew]

I don't view Duncan's championships as a sign of him being more clutch. I guarantee you, the jazz from 97-98 wouldve beaten any post jordan championship team in a series. Just look at how they toyed with the lakers in 98 to see exactly how good they were.

People say that Duncan's numbers will only get better.. and that is possible. But look at David Robinson's career. In his first 9 seasons, he averaged around 25 ppg, 11 rebounds in 35 mpg. Then you see the dropoff. Some of that may had to do with duncan's arrival, but what if san antonio lands a superstar scorer this offseason? Will the same happen to duncan that happened to robinson, will he sacrifice like the admiral did? i think so.

I don't think they'd be an argument if Duncan had won 2 rings... But seeing alot of the duncan arguement is hypothetical, what happens if malone plays after this season, gets a ring, and the all time scoring title? He is only i think 1500 (someone can clarify this for me) away from kareems mark, and he wouldve been the 4th option on the laker team when (if) they win. Would those two, fairly small (for malone) accomplishments on malones resume push him back up above duncan?

I view Malone to be the greatest pf unless duncan is producing like he is until his 13th or 14th season.

[.]

Right, so the spurs couldnt sweep the suns or nets last season, but you think its possible they could sweep the best team in league history? lol well i guess its possible that kirk hinrich could dunk on shaq as well

DUH! Ofcourse it is possible, but you didnt get me....What I meant to say is that I dont know what would happen if Duncan would face the Bulls, no one knows because it never happend.....maybe they would have sweep them, maybe not. But its possible, because it happens in the NBA when bad teams defeat the top teams,but enough of that.

[air gordon]

ok fine, nba fan 23, malone's choking had a lot to do with the bulls defense hehe, but not entirley

I guarantee you, the jazz from 97-98 wouldve beaten any post jordan championship team in a series. Just look at how they toyed with the lakers in 98 to see exactly how good they were.

the 98 lakers team had 96 magic written all over them- an undisciplined, young team with no heart. veteran teams like the bulls and jazz would tear these type of teams apart in a playoff series.

to be argumentative, i do think that laker team which steam rolled through the playoffs (i don't know exaclty which year- i'm sure a laker fan can provide this) would have been a good matchup against those 98 jazz. i wonder what would be going on upstairs for the mailman, seeing that he'd have to face another phil jackson coached team

People say that Duncan's numbers will only get better.. and that is possible. But look at David Robinson's career. In his first 9 seasons, he averaged around 25 ppg, 11 rebounds in 35 mpg. Then you see the dropoff. Some of that may had to do with duncan's arrival, but what if san antonio lands a superstar scorer this offseason? Will the same happen to duncan that happened to robinson, will he sacrifice like the admiral did? i think so.

i think it depends who this superstar is. popovich knew that duncan was the better post player then softy robinson so he made td the #1 option on offense. TD will probably sacrifice his game somewhat if a superstar is brought in. but unless its shaq, yao, or amare- i don't see td's numbers taking a nosedive

[Jackal]

to be argumentative, i do think that laker team which steam rolled through the playoffs (i don't know exaclty which year- i'm sure a laker fan can provide this)

2000? That was their best year, I think?

[magius]

well, charles actually played against both malone and duncan -- so him saying that counts a lot in my opinion, since he wasnt so bad either

when in doubt always go with the 7-footer -- i think duncan is or will soon become the best ever because his mere presence on defense forces slashers to try and go right at him or be more tentative when driving inside -- duncan has the ability to make players miss or change shots by just being on the floor. malone on the other hand is a great offensive player, but only a good defensive player -- he wont intimidate with his shot blocking, and such intimidation even if it wont ultimately lead to a direct blocked shot leads to inadvertantly altered missed shots which to me is just as good.

another question to be asked -- if duncan hadnt been drafted into a spur team with an already prominent centre in the admiral would he still be considered a power forward in todays nba?

[GloveGuy]

Wow...

It's hard to believe this all started after a quote made by Charles Barkley, the man who said that Lebron James wouldn't help his team for three seasons and that Gary Payton was the second most underrated player of all time.

Lets just all keep in mind that it was Charles Barkley, not the Pope, not Michael Jordan or Bill Russell who said this, but it was Charles Barkley.

[magius]

point taken, but i still pick duncan with or without him

anyway, funny barkley quotes:

These are my new shoes. They're good shoes. They won't make you rich like me, they won't make you rebound like me, they definitely won't make you handsome like me. They'll only make you have shoes like me. That's it.
Charles Barkley

My family got all over me because they said Bush is only for the rich people. Then I reminded them, 'Hey, I'm rich'.
Charles Barkley

I love New York City; I've got a gun.
Charles Barkley

I think that the team that wins game five will win the series. Unless we lose game five.
Charles Barkley

If I weren't earning $3 million a year to dunk a basketball, most people on the street would run in the other direction if they saw me coming.
Charles Barkley

Kids are great. That's one of the best things about our business, all the kids you get to meet. It's a shame they have to grow up to be regular people and come to the games and call you names.
Charles Barkley

[Fresh8]

LOL at those Barkley comments! Especially: "I think that the team that wins game five will win the series. Unless we lose game five."
-Charles Barkley

[Jackal]

Is Tim Duncan the greatest PF ever?

Yes.

Next question?