Yao - the most overrated all star starter ever

dunking on shaq, shooting over shaq, and putting spin moves on shaq are exactly why yao deserves to start in the all star game.

yao is not overated at all. last night's game proved y'all haters wrong.

Lol are you attacking me?

What I proved was that Carmelo would be deterimental to the Detroit Pistons over Tayshaun Prince because of his poor-shooting and non-existant defense

You didnt prove that at all. All you said basically was that Detroit was rebuilding and Darko will take them to the title in 3 years once the lakers, kings, mavs, twolves, spurs have all been dismantled.. and you still didnt really didnt prove anything. If they win in 3 years and dont make the conference finals this season, then i guess you did, but thats some pretty big "ifs"

I never said Darko was more helpful now and instead said that Darko could be better in the end and that is what Joe Dumars is betting on.

Thats worse than portlands excuse for not drafting mj (we already had a shooting guard). Detroit made the conference finals last year, Carmelo is better now than darko, so why not draft an immediate impact player such as anthony who can help them get over that hump now? I said all this before..

The claim you just made is an outright lie and you should be ashamed that you had to lie to attempt to drag down the validity of things I say.

Lol a lie Its an opinion. This is a lie (from the darko thead):

Me: "This was the logic you used to say Jordan was selfish to come back to the wizards, becuase he was "hurting" them becuase they were more competitive and not getting the higher lottery picks... "

Ben: "No? Never said that? Jordan hurt the Wizards by dealing and signing away their cap space with poor players and his playing did nothing to help the team because he was so hell bent on winning then they were playing him and guys like Charles Oakley and Byron Russell who had no business being there. "

Me: "'Jordan doesn't care about this franchise...he only cares about his own glory, etc. If he cared about the franchise he wouldn't have come back to play...but that's not his fault...he's human...which makes him selfish and greedy...just you Shane...you, me...Matthew...Nigel's debatable because he's...yeah...

without Jordan they win 30 games, miss the playoffs, and get a higher pick...with Jordan they win 35 games, still miss the playoffs, get a lower pick... '
You said that ben, and that was before they sign Russell and Oakley and made the trade for stack... "
And of course you didnt make refrence to that again, but "No, never said this" was a lie, not what i said before.

This shows how unworthwhile you are.

Hold on, you have a bitch whenever someone breaks rules around here.. so

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Attack other members and/or start a flame war

Post only to make fun of other members' grammar or spelling

Post only to request action from a moderator. If a topic requires locking, moving or deletion, it will be taken care of ASAP.

Throw a discussion off-topic

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Sounds like someone is simply are afraid their ill-conceived and wrong preconceptions from the ESPN NBA will be proven wrong.

And it also seems like stats arent everything. Common sense must be taken into account as well.

Where does it say that? Where? Nowhere. What does the list say? It says, that, according to FIVE seperate and different production/efficency ratings that Steve Francis is having a bad year and that Matt Harpring (who is down this year), Antonio Daniels, Brent Barry, Brian Cardinal, Vlade Divac, Mehmet Okur, Dan Gadzuric and 64 other players are outperforming Steve Francis when they are on the floor.

My point exactly. The brilliant efficency ratings do not take into account the amount of pressure a player takes of his teamates, it does not take into account if he the focal point on offense, which are huge factors on a players statsics (especially in the efficency department). This is why i say stats dont mean everything

Yes, Ming and Wallace do. Since Wallace is listed as a center we will place him there (with only 28% account for defense mind you), and when we do (and only allow players who have played half of potential minutes since we expect only starter minute players to go), he becomes second best in the East after Ilgauskas.

But, you said before if Francis wasnt in the west he wouldnt have made the asg.. or wasnt that you who said that? Anyhow, that was my point altogether about wallace not being deserving, if he wasnt on the east (big ben) then neither would he be deserving of an all star selection.

Yao Ming is second behind Shaq at Center

So Yao is deserving to start over Shaq when he is 2nd behind him? Hmmm...

dunking on shaq, shooting over shaq, and putting spin moves on shaq are exactly why yao deserves to start in the all star game.

yao is not overated at all. last night's game proved y'all haters wrong.

Shaqs season stats are better then Yao´s, thats why Shaq should be the starter

You didnt prove that at all.

Yes, I did. I showed that Melo would not match Prince's scoring when given the same amount of posessions (which would be lucky for Melo since he'd likely be coming off the bench for Brown) and that he wouldn't be a stopper on defense but grooves.

Lol a lie Its an opinion.

Saying I said Darko would help the Pistons now = a lie.

And of course you didnt make refrence to that again, but "No, never said this" was a lie, not what i said before.

No, it wasn't and what you posted proved it wasn't a lie.

The brilliant efficency ratings do not take into account the amount of pressure a player takes of his teamates, it does not take into account if he the focal point on offense, which are huge factors on a players statsics (especially in the efficency department).

It doesn't? Since when? You must be talking about the idiotic nba.com rating. Not the various ones I employ. Because we have studied and accounted for things like that.

But, you said before if Francis wasnt in the west he wouldnt have made the asg.. or wasnt that you who said that?

I said Francis shouldn't be in the All-Star Game. I originally posted in reply to the person who said that when I listed the strong point guards in the West.

So Yao is deserving to start over Shaq when he is 2nd behind him? Hmmm...

Where did I say Yao should start? I said he should be in the game. I said nothing about starting.

Saying I said Darko would help the Pistons now = a lie.

Actually I said "Hell, ben can use stats to prove that carmelo would be detrimental to the pistons, and darko is more helpfull now to them"..

No, it wasn't and what you posted proved it wasn't a lie.

Lol, so you saying you didnt say something and me quoting you saying that isnt a lie on your part? Geeze, and you call other people "silly".

It doesn't? Since when? You must be talking about the idiotic nba.com rating. Not the various ones I employ. Because we have studied and accounted for things like that.

Ok show me in the ratios where they account for this..

Where did I say Yao should start? I said he should be in the game. I said nothing about starting.

Thats a simple misunderstanding. I mean Yao doesnt deserve to be starting over shaq imo

I dunno man, cause I know that many players will be a sixth man or second fiddle and they'll do good and shoot well, but when they become the main guy they begin to take bad shots and are covered more efficently by the defense therefore might not be as effective. Also guys like Cardinal are normally set up for shots by other player and don't handle the ball or create for themselves as much, which gets them more open shots and also lack of turnovers. I think it works better to use the ratings for individual positions rather then everyone, because the PG obviously has the ball a lot more and should turnover the ball more than a guy that waits for you to drive and kick it to him.

Then there's the kind of shots guys are given, Gadzuric mostly makes layup, dunks and fast break points and isn't told to create much, therefore he shoots a higher percentage. If he becomes a go to guy and is getting the touches, you could see those dwindle, and example is Antonio Davis. You look at his first few years where he scored on garbage points and put backs and his efficiency would be pretty exceptional, then he goes to Toronto and is told to create and then shoots the same percentages a guard would. In that case if you had done the per 48 mins it would show his scoring while shooting the same percentage, but when he actually gets those minutes/touches he doesn't score that much because the % dwindles.

The position also matters because generally a center or PF will shoot a higher percentage and grab more boards than a guard or SF, so the most efficient players are normally big men because they'll get the higher percentage shots, and rebounds and blocks.

Another thing per 48 min doesn't work for is turnovers, because like I said fatigue comes in play, when a player is tired he is morei nclined to miss shots or make mistakes.

With Cassell not being a starter though, I voted for him, but how many people want to see mid range jumpers and slow fast breaks by Cassell. Not too many, he's really not that popular too, many people that occasionaly watch ball don't even know how good he's doing this year.

Lol, so you saying you didnt say something and me quoting you saying that isnt a lie on your part?

You didn't quote me saying it. You quoted me saying if Jordan comes back they're slightly better and get a lower pick, but not me saying Jordan was hurting the Wizards. You were just trying to make me look hypocritical while skirting the fact that the Wizards were a horrible club that needed to be overhauled massively, while the Pistons only need to overhaul half the team, not all of it.

I dunno man, cause I know that many players will be a sixth man or second fiddle and they'll do good and shoot well, but when they become the main guy they begin to take bad shots and are covered more efficently by the defense therefore might not be as effective.

There have been a lot of people who have studied this. Most famously John Hollinger and he found that generally players play better in more time because they get into the flow of the game. His study focused on the 2001-02 Wizards then branched out. He focused on the Wizards because Doug Collins was playing players all sorts of inconsistant minutes. It was found that players doubled their simple production when playing 16+ minutes compared to 15 or fewer minutes.

I think it works better to use the ratings for individual positions rather then everyone

Of course, I also have that.

Code:

1   S. Cassell
2   B. Davis
3   J. Kidd
4   S. Marbury
5   M. Bibby
6   A. Miller
7   B. Jackson
8   C. Billups
9   L. James
10   C. Arroyo
11   S. Nash
12   G. Payton
13   G. Arenas
14   A. Daniels
15   J. Williams
16   B. Barry
17   D. Wade
18   S. Francis
19   C. Ward
20   J. Terry
21   J. McInnis
22   D. Armstrong
23   T. Parker
24   E. Boykins
25   M. James
26   D. Stoudamire
27   L. Barbosa
28   N. Van Exel
29   E. Snow

Then there's the kind of shots guys are given, Gadzuric mostly makes layup, dunks and fast break points and isn't told to create much, therefore he shoots a higher percentage.

But because he doesn't get many opportunities his high shooting % is canceled out in the calculations.

example is Antonio Davis. You look at his first few years where he scored on garbage points and put backs and his efficiency would be pretty exceptional, then he goes to Toronto and is told to create and then shoots the same percentages a guard would. In that case if you had done the per 48 mins it would show his scoring while shooting the same percentage, but when he actually gets those minutes/touches he doesn't score that much because the % dwindles.

Since calculating the last two ratings takes some time and I can't just plug the stats into excel here are only the first three along with his Offensive Percentage and eFG%...I apologize...I've designated his first year in Toronto with an *

Code:

1993-94   80.81   20.22   32.68   47.5   .508
1994-95   66.72   16.36   21.84   44.4   .445
1995-96   71.74   18.09   25.95   50.8   .491
1996-97   50.14   17.75   17.80   47.0   .481
1997-98   76.38   18.79   28.70   49.6   .481
1998-99   75.82   18.99   28.79   50.1   .471
1999-00*   76.28   19.20   29.29   49.4   .440
2000-01   80.63   19.78   31.90   48.6   .433
2001-02   74.66   17.75   26.51   48.7   .426
2002-03   76.52   17.12   26.20   47.0   .407
2003-04   61.49   14.71   18.09   45.3   .402

The position also matters because generally a center or PF will shoot a higher percentage and grab more boards than a guard or SF, so the most efficient players are normally big men because they'll get the higher percentage shots, and rebounds and blocks.

Actually not. This is only a problem with the NBA's rating and ones like it. The stat analysis community got rid of that problem a couple years back.

Another thing per 48 min doesn't work for is turnovers, because like I said fatigue comes in play, when a player is tired he is morei nclined to miss shots or make mistakes.

Which is why we use Turnover Ratio.

With Cassell not being a starter though, I voted for him, but how many people want to see mid range jumpers and slow fast breaks by Cassell. Not too many, he's really not that popular too, many people that occasionaly watch ball don't even know how good he's doing this year.

He's doing great this year, but what most people don't know is that he's played this well at least the last two years...and more than likely longer (I haven't checked it out though I plan to).

Name those, I don't know what the first three are supposed to be representing.

If the high fg% due to lack of shots is neglected, then what is used to determine that.

How are rebounds taken in account then, is it weighted less for perimeter players, but that would also give advantages to players with bad interior rebounders on their team.

Are fouls also accounted into the ratings, because some players may be good at blocking or stealing, but they are hacks that just gamble a lot while they are in the game and if were to start would have to control themselves.

I was also wondering how Larry Huhges and Gilbert beat Franchise. I mean Francis is shooting 40%, a lotta turnovers (3.63), but is rebounding and assistis better than both of them, and they aren't too far behind in turnovers or ahead in fg%. I mean Arenas is worse in fg%, ft%, more turnover's, less rebounds, assists, and blocks, but has more ppg, and steals per game. He's playing 4 less minutes though.

In the rankings though, that made Arenas 20 spots higher. Hughes is 18 spots higher and is worse in fg%, rebounds, assists, and blocks, but ahead in ppg, ft%, and steals. He is playing about 7 minutes less though.

But anyways I wasn't talking about statistical rankings, I was talking about just ranking the player on how good you really feel they are.

Last edited by fgrep15 on Sat Feb 14, 2004 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Shaqs season stats are better then Yao´s, thats why Shaq should be the starter

they both deserve to start, its just unfortunate that yao's got more votes.

T-Mac's buddy, Shaq

Asked if any of the all-star procedures should be changed, Magic guard Tracy McGrady said, "There's some shadiness to it. I mean, Shaquille O'Neal coming off the bench as a reserve? The most dominant guy in our league? Come on." McGrady was referring to Houston's Yao Ming receiving more votes (many on-line from Asia) than O'Neal. "I'm not taking anything away from Yao Ming. I'm just being real."

Seriously
the best players on the west are
Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe and Cassell
they should be starters
Yao deserve all-star reserve.. Francis DOES NOT.. i'll rather take Bibby/Nash after Cassell..

East
it should be
Ben Wallace, Jermaine, Carter, Mcgrady, Iverson