First All-Star Returns

[benji]

And now we can ask the question. Who are the "correct guys"? Any system where ANYONE is voting is not picking the "best" or "correct" it's picking the popular.

As is now we have some insane system in which the fans pick who they want to see for the starters and then the coaches do a secret trading system rewarding each other that's touted as the guys who "deserve" it. (Like Anthony Mason, Allan Houston, etc.)

If we want a game between the twelve best players from each conference we need to define some empirical measure of this. It can be PER, it can be +/-, it can be dick size, it can be their salary, or jersey sales. Whatever. Then you just run this through a computer and send those guys to the game.

But that's not what it is. It's a celebration. It's a friendly competition. It's "for the fans" they always say. We aren't trying to decide the best dunker or best three point shooter or best rookie class or best conference. We want to see some silly or crazy dunks. We want to see if Magic Johnson will have a heart attack while chucking up half court shots because he's 450lbs. We want to see our favorite players in a friendly and meaningless game, that if close will get competitive in the fourth.

And around and around we go every year about "All-Star snubs" or "undeserving players" and everyone whines about it every year. When if you just let the fans pick all twelve guys, they can bitch about Asians or Canadians same as they do now, but in the end it's a process that makes sense, sends the most popular guys and most people will see most of their favorite players same as they do now.

Short version:
If you want it to be the "most correct" players you will never be happy because there's no way to do this.
If you want it to be the "most popular" players, guess what, easy to do. Make the entire team elected. This is also the fairest way as it is the only one with a clearly defined criteria as to who goes. The people with the most votes.

It's stupid that they don't do this, except there's a lot of league interest in the behind-the-scenes trading system and ensuring "representation" on the teams that they won't give up those 14 reserves.

The end of the year awards on the other hand should be the players, instead of the slowly dying dead tree media. I think it'd mean a lot more to be coming from their fellow players than people who won't vote for you because Jermaine O'Neal gave more interviews or you got them more attention for the narratives they pushed about you. (*cough* Rose *cough* Kobe *cough*)

[hova-]

But comparing Joe Johnson and Vince Carter you cannot say that Vince deserves it more. They're putting up very similar stats with VC shooting better from downtown but JJ compensating that with shooting way better inside. I don't like how JJ does not get to the line often enough though. Other stats are pretty even but I guess VC is just more popular.

Ray Ray maybe on his decline but hes still putting up decent offensive numbers. I would like to see him in the ASG.

[benji]

The truth is, the East guard situation is so poor in terms of "All-Star" level talents right now, Wade and Rondo are the only true locks who "deserve" it and should be the starters if you're trying to pick a "best" two guards.

Ridnour, Johnson, Crawford, Iguodala, Williams, Gordon, Carter, Allen and Jennings aren't even within shouting distance of those two and all so close to each other you could argue really for any of them.

Compare that to the West where you have Kobe and Nash plus Roy, Paul, Billups, and Williams (of whom five could realistically make the team) before you start getting into guys around that batch.

[NovU]

If fans picked the all the all stars, aren't we likely to see same stars year after year and probably see lots of Yi, Iverson and T-mac. Bigger cities will have more votes for their stars, and bigger fan base from nations will be a too big of a factor. Say, I think Yi and Yao will make it every year till they retire. Besides, I think coaches sometimes give a fair shot to players who deserves it, otherwise who would haver never make it.

[benji]

Besides, I think coaches sometimes give a fair shot to players who deserves it, otherwise who would haver never make it.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

aren't we likely to see same stars year after year

And this would differ from the current situation how?

and probably see lots of Yi, Iverson and T-mac.

Yi has never received enough votes to make the team under a fan vote system that follows the position rules. And Iverson (last year) and McGrady are already making the team.

Bigger cities will have more votes for their stars, and bigger fan base from nations will be a too big of a factor.

As they do currently. But I also proposed a year ago limiting it to two players from any team unless they were to finish top two at the position.

Say, I think Yi and Yao will make it every year till they retire.

And?

Here's the real question that everyone keeps ignoring: If the fans want to see these players, why shouldn't they be allowed to? What is the All-Star team SUPPOSED to represent?

[benji]

The likely All-Star teams based on the current system, using the current results:
C: Howard, Bogut
F: KG, LeBron, Pierce, Bosh, Smith
G: Wade, Carter, Johnson, Gordon

C: Amare, Duncan
F: Dirk, Melo, Gasol, Durant
G: Kobe, McGrady, Roy, Nash, Williams, Paul

The All-Star teams based on the current fan votes:
C: Howard, Shaq
F: LeBron, KG, Bosh, Pierce
G: Wade, Carter, Arenas, Allen, Rose, Iverson

C: Amare, Bynum
F: Melo, Dirk, Gasol, Duncan, Durant
G: Kobe, McGrady, Nash, Paul, Kidd

Based on Win Shares (and B-R positions):
C: Howard, Horford
F: LeBron, Bosh, Pierce, Garnett, Smith, Lee
G: Rondo, Wade, Allen, M. Williams

C: Bynum, Camby
F: Dirk, Melo, Durant, Duncan, Nene, Boozer
G: Bryant, Roy, Nash, Paul

Based on PER:
C: Howard, Lopez, Horford
F: LeBron, Bosh, Smith, Lee, Garnett
G: Wade, Rondo, L. Williams, L. Ridnour

C: Bynum, M. Gasol
F: Duncan, Melo, Dirk, Durant, Landry, Boozer
G: Paul, Kobe, Nash, D. Williams

[George7]

Is rose in the east squad at least?
I like t-mac and voted him too

[NovU]

Besides, I think coaches sometimes give a fair shot to players who deserves it, otherwise who would haver never make it.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

Players like Jameer Nelson or Danny Granger even with great stats wouldn't have been selected, but coaches did back in 2008. Instead, players like AI would have been, if it was by fans' voting.

Yi has never received enough votes to make the team under a fan vote system that follows the position rules. And Iverson (last year) and McGrady are already making the team.

I thought Yi was third in East back in 2008-09 by fan voting.

Here's the real question that everyone keeps ignoring: If the fans want to see these players, why shouldn't they be allowed to? What is the All-Star team SUPPOSED to represent?

It's true but personally, I don't think fans are as fair as or as professional as coaches when it comes to picking all stars, at least for most of times, so letting fans choosing starters I think is pretty fair enough for both players and fans.

[Rip32]

Based on PER:
C: Howard, Lopez, Horford
F: LeBron, Bosh, Smith, Lee, Garnett
G: Wade, Rondo, L. Williams, L. Ridnour

C: Bynum, M. Gasol
F: Duncan, Melo, Dirk, Durant, Landry, Boozer
G: Paul, Kobe, Nash, D. Williams

I like that team, maybe Gerald Wallace would be more "deserving" then Lee (just based on stats alone)? It may be a push. I also love that Brandon Jennings backup is on there and Brandon Jennings is not

I always liked MLB's idea that every team had to have an all-star, it seemed like it was a way to make the fan of every team have a small interest in the game. It's too bad you can't do that in the NBA since that would fill the entire team up with a guy from each squad. If you played with Yao you would never be an all-star in your career, poor aaron brooks.

[Martti.]

I really hope Lopez makes the squad. Based on his numbers he should, but the Nets' record could trim his chances.

[benji]

Players like Jameer Nelson or Danny Granger even with great stats wouldn't have been selected, but coaches did back in 2008. Instead, players like AI would have been, if it was by fans' voting.

AND IVERSON WAS. And look, who the fuck cares if Nelson and Granger aren't selected? There's going to be snubs every year no matter what the process if you're trying to send "the best players" and letting people vote on it. If you're just sending the most popular players there will not be any snubs and the process to send players would make sense and be transparent.

It's true but personally, I don't think fans are as fair as or as professional as coaches when it comes to picking all stars, at least for most of times, so letting fans choosing starters I think is pretty fair enough for both players and fans.

Dear god. The coaches suck. They don't send the "best" or "correct" or "most deserving" players. Indeed the coaches have a higher percentage of the worst All-Stars in the last decade being ones they chose. And they do this because they don't send the "best" or "most deserving" but do a secret horse-trading and "representation" system where nobody is allowed to see the votes and they're allowed to ignore the rules the fans have to follow.

And again, everyone is still ignoring the ONE question that needs to be answered before we can even debate who is "supposed" to be on the teams: What is the All-Star team SUPPOSED to represent?

If the All-Star team is supposed to be the "best" or "most correct" or "most deserving" players nobody would vote. Not the coaches, not the fans, not the players. Instead some computer would decide by an open and empirical measure this and we'd send those twelve players.
If the All-Star team is supposed to be composed of the most popular players, then we have the fans pick the team.
If the All-Star team is supposed to be a "representation" then you expand it to 15 players and include one player from each team as voted by that teams fans.
If the All-Star team is supposed to be a marketing tool to enhance the profile of selected players the league wants to push, then the league should pick the players.

The current system is stupid, the coaches are the worst part of it, and the entire debate is phony and stupid because nobody ever defines exactly what it means to deserve to be on the team.

I like that team, maybe Gerald Wallace would be more "deserving" then Lee (just based on stats alone)?

Player	P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	WS	PER
David Lee	19.1	10.7	2.6	.613	14.3	22.5	115	2.6	21.1
Gerald Wallace	14.4	10.8	1.4	.538	14.4	20.1	104	2.6	16.6

It may be a push. I also love that Brandon Jennings backup is on there and Brandon Jennings is not

Player	P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	TOV%	USG%	ORtg	WS	PER
Brandon Jennings	21.6	3.9	5.8	.515	12.7	29.6	103	1.6	17.9
Luke Ridnour	17.2	3.4	6.8	.596	11.4	20.1	121	2.1	19.4

Ridnour plays a lot of his minutes alongside Jennings. At least half of them, maybe 60%.

[Andrew]

I don't mind the current system too much as I feel it produces a decent amount of players that "should" be there. I'd estimate that there's probably at least 18 out of the 24 players any given year that "deserve" to be there (if we were to ever nail down logical criteria) or are simply players that fans want to see in the game. They're the players that are probably going to see the most time, so the current format isn't necessarily a recipe for disaster.

Having said that, letting the fans pick the entire team couldn't be any worse and would cut out the questionable selections the coaches have made over the years. You'd still get a couple of picks that not everyone agrees with as fading stars who are still popular would still amass votes (McGrady and Iverson being obvious examples) but I think you'd still have around at least 18 players out of the 24 who you could judge with a set criteria and say yes, they "deserve" to be there. After all, outside of still-popular fading stars, the most popular players in the league are usually amongst the best players in the league; a Brian Scalabrine may be insanely popular with the hometown crowd, but fans of the other 29 teams aren't going to vote for him. For all the "Let's send Greg Ostertag to the All-Star game!"-type campaigns there have been, they've yet to succeed.

[benji]

The problem with the current system is not the results, it's the process.

[NovU]

If the All-Star team is supposed to be composed of the most popular players, then we have the fans pick the team.
If the All-Star team is supposed to be a "representation" then you expand it to 15 players and include one player from each team as voted by that teams fans.
If the All-Star team is supposed to be a marketing tool to enhance the profile of selected players the league wants to push, then the league should pick the players.

The current system is stupid, the coaches are the worst part of it, and the entire debate is phony and stupid because nobody ever defines exactly what it means to deserve to be on the team.

I guess all of the above.

You are right, but as long as the result is ok, who cares really. The current system I think produces a result with less controversy than the all by fan votes system.

[benji]

How can it be all of the above? That's beyond contradictory.

Who cares? Obviously everyone since they endlessly bitch about who should be and who is on the team. (And then for some reason want the coaches, who are worse than the fans, to pick the team. Or the media, who are worse than the coaches.)

A fan vote system would produce no sane controversy because it's logical and means only one thing: who is the most popular.

What does the current All-Star team mean? It's two players who win their position vote, eight players who finish in the top two of their position vote, ten more players who win a horse-trading and representation system that's done in secret, and then four more players who result from the voting oddities of that system. No more than four players are chosen by the same method as any of the other players on the team.

Why would anyone design or support a system so meaningless and blatantly stupid when there's an obvious fix that will make more people happy with the teams?

[The X]

I guess under a complete fan voting system, the fans would actually get who they want as injury replacements rather than Maurice Williams, Rasheed Wallace or Chris Gatling (granted, I liked the latter ).

In addition to that, who really wants to see Z, Tyrone Hill, Charles Oakley & John Starks on the All-Star teams?!? That's what All-NBA teams are for anyways, not that the aforementioned tend to feature anyways.

[kibaxx7]

FINALLY, an All-Star game without Yao

[Andrew]

In all fairness, it's not as though Yao hasn't been an All-Star calibre player in years past.

[NovU]

Speaking of Yao, it's good to hear everything is going well with recovery for him. He should be back to All Star next year along with T-mac I assume...

[Modifly]

He should be back to All Star next year along with T-mac I assume...

What's with > ? Aren't we supposed to be happy for players who make successful recovery?

[Null17]

He should be back to All Star next year along with T-mac I assume...

What's with > ? Aren't we supposed to be happy for players who make successful recovery?

He was shaking his head on the All-star part. He even mentioned that it was good to hear that everything is going well with Yao's recovery.

[NovU]

lolz. don't get me wrong, mod. i'm also a fan of rockets and of t-mac and yao. benji again might hate this idea but two all starters from 4th/5th seed at best doesn't sound fair to me. if i was to send 2 starters from 1 team, usually i'd choose from top tier teams like boston or lakers. but starters are selected by votes so... it's probably the reason why coaches mess up on choosing reserves time to time, trying to make it bit more fair for top teams without super star(s), like nelson being chosen or mo williams chosen for the reason of being a second best player on a winning team. i suppose it is also one of the reason why i support current system over all by fans. besides, imho i think the rockets weren't and aren't a that much of terrible team even w/o t-mac or yao compared to idea of considering other teams w/o their superstar(s).