1990-1999...or somethin like that!

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

EGarrett wrote:

[Hakeem Olajuwon] The most versatile post player ever

That would be Wilt Chamberlain.

[Matthew]

How was Wilt the most versatile post player ever? Granted I never saw him play, but almost everyone who writes about him all talk about his power, and thats why he and shaq are compared. But Hakeem (like duncan) could be agresive with their power or use some finese and footwork just as well..

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

How was Wilt the most versatile post player ever? Granted I never saw him play, but almost everyone who writes about him all talk about his power, and thats why he and shaq are compared. But Hakeem (like duncan) could be agresive with their power or use some finese and footwork just as well..

I would go on and on about how you must be pretty versatile to average 50 pts a game, 27 rebounds and once lead the league in assists, but I don't think I will, obviously people do not believe he could run and shoot a jumpshot, the called him the big dipper, but honestly I don't even believe there is any arguement about this.


Does he look like he is built like Shaq here in 1962 after dropping in 100? He got bigger, but played around 250 for many years, he could move around, believe me.



I would say Kareem was very versatile with dunking, jumpshooting and the most dangerous and smooth weapon of all-time, the mighty skyhook.




Here is Kareem working on increasing his versatility by studying martial arts with Bruce Lee.

[Matthew]

Ok Mike you posted some pictures.. but why? Does that prove anything?Back when he played and scored 100 points, he may not have been at his strongest, ill accept that. But he was alot stronger than anyone guarding him- hence the comparisons to shaq. In my opinion, wilt and shaq were the most dominant post players, and hakeem, david robinson and duncan are the most versatile, and the reason for that is they were quicker, had better footwork and still had strength, so they could beat you in a varity of ways. Wilt could flat out dominate the paint... but im yet to see any evidence that suggests he was as complete as a hakeem olajuwon (ie his jumpshot and post moves)

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Ok Mike you posted some pictures.. but why? Does that prove anything?Back when he played and scored 100 points, he may not have been at his strongest, ill accept that. But he was alot stronger than anyone guarding him- hence the comparisons to shaq. In my opinion, wilt and shaq were the most dominant post players, and hakeem, david robinson and duncan are the most versatile, and the reason for that is they were quicker, had better footwork and still had strength, so they could beat you in a varity of ways. Wilt could flat out dominate the paint... but im yet to see any evidence that suggests he was as complete as a hakeem olajuwon (ie his jumpshot and post moves)

See any evidence of that suggests he was as complete as a Hakeem Olajuwon? This is based on what? You saw Olajuwon play more, heck you probably never saw Wilt play, I have, ESPN Classic has shown many games, but there is more to it than this, people believe way too much in what they see than what they haven't. Do the numbers not do anything for you? He didn't just stand under the basket and slam the ball down over and over like Shaq, he was a different player than Shaq from 1959-1969. He suffered an injury in 1969 to his knee, then bulked way up and began to play like Shaq, which is a good thing as well, but early on he was fast and like a better version of Kevin Garnett.


http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Chamberlain.htm

Chamberlain's skills were so far advanced than his competitors, several rule changes were enacted to harness his awesome ability. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws.

Although his feats were often credited to his tremendous size, Chamberlain was a true natural who possessed exceptional speed, agility, stamina and strength.

http://www.terra.com/specials/sportsico ... in_en.html

The Creator was never more generous with an athlete than when he blessed Wilt Chamberlain.

Only from a divine mold could so explosive a combination of basketball perfection in scoring and rebounding have been created. His versatility when attacking the net, and the imposing personality he displayed as a defender separated Chamberlain from other players. His advantage was such that it compelled the NBA in 1964 to increase the distance between the free-throw line and the basket from 12 feet to 16 feet.

A track and field star at the University of Kansas, Chamberlain was 7'1" and weighed 275 pounds, but he added more muscle mass during his career and eventually weighed in at 300 pounds of pure muscle.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

He showed his athletic versatility by winning the high jump competition in the Big Eight track and field championships, clearing the bar at 6-6.

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/wi ... cle10.html

What an athlete he'd been. A decathlon champion in college. A professional-quality beach volleyball player into his 50s. And, according to the old football coach Hank Stram, Wilt could've been an NFL star.

"One year when Wilt was holding out on the 76ers," Stram said, "we invited him to an early training camp in the Catskills." This was when Stram's Kansas City Chiefs were an NFL dynasty in the making. "First thing we did was run him 40 yards."

Wilt ran in slacks and bare feet. He outsprinted the Chiefs' best running back, Curtis McClinton.

It goes forever and ever, modern players are just more visible, but to compare Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan to Wilt Chamberlain is like comparing apples and oranges. Yes Hakeem would have dominated back in 1964 somewhat like Wilt did, but was Olajuwon or is Duncan a track and field type of athlete, long-jump, high jump, 40 yard dash?
Wilt took karate, dancing lessons and worked with conditioning experts throughout his career, if his massive numbers advantage don't sway you, than the facts are just standing in the way of the truth.

ie his jumpshot and post moves

So you believe Hakeem had a better jumpshot and better post moves than Wilt? I am just amazed by the lack of understanding what Wilt did.
I can't believe that people think this way, it's beyond me, you can have your opinion and that's fine, but my opinion is that Hakeem Olajuwon is not even in same world of athlete thay Wilt was.

Post moves, this really makes me laugh, he put together more post moves in 1962 than Hakeem did in any two seasons combined, maybe in Hakeem's entire career.

Patrick Ewing had a better jumpshot than Olajuwon.

[- Ace -]

For myself, I only have some kind of memory of the '93 and '94 seasons, after that I havent had much chance to stay informed.

10 years back Charlotte was quite good, with 'Zo Mourning, Grandma Larry Johnson and Muggsy Bogues (he was the reason I became a fan of them).

TheBigEasy

Didn't Mourning make a buzzer beater to eliminate the Celtics in the playoffs?

[Matthew]

See any evidence of that suggests he was as complete as a Hakeem Olajuwon? This is based on what?

No, I dont see any evidence that proves to me wilt was more versatile in the post than hakeem was...

You saw Olajuwon play more, heck you probably never saw Wilt play

Thats right, i said that at in my first post in this thread..

Do the numbers not do anything for you?

Numbers are meaningfull upto a point really. The reason for this is, you watch kobe play last season, he my have averaged say 6, 6 and a half assists (or around that mark) but does that mean he was a guy who was setting up his teamates? no not at all, he was getting those assists mainly becuase of his scoring ability and teams were reacting defensively to him so he would just pass the ball to the open guy. So numbers can only mean so much to me when i look at a player. The more shots a player takes, the more points he will score.. the more he dominates the ball, the more assists he will generate.. and the more rebounds he gets the closer he is around the basket usually. Thats all assumptions really, i know.. but somtimes , just somtimes, these assumptions can be correct when you think about them..

He didn't just stand under the basket and slam the ball down over and over like Shaq, he was a different player than Shaq from 1959-1969. He suffered an injury in 1969 to his knee, then bulked way up and began to play like Shaq, which is a good thing as well, but early on he was fast and like a better version of Kevin Garnett.

I'll really have to take your word for his playing style here, becuase when i read books about the classic russel/chamberlin rivalry they always talk about how much bigger and stronger wilt was, and how this made russ better etc etc.. so maybe ive been misinformed? who knows? all i can say is most nba fans who have never seen wilt play are under the same assumption- wilt was such a dominating force under the basket that he used his strength and height similar to how shaq uses his strength and heigh today.

It goes forever and ever, modern players are just more visible, but to compare Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan to Wilt Chamberlain is like comparing apples and oranges

I agree, to a point. To me, Wilt was more of a dominant post player, where as hakeem was more versatile. The reason for this is you look at how hakeem handled shaq in 95, it was a totally different way he approached horace grant or whoever else tried guarding him in that series. He could do this becuase he was more versatile, he could use his strength to be more aggressive with smaller centres, but if he was matched up with a bigger guy, he would use his patient, post moves and better footwork to still be as unstopable. Same with Duncan.

Yes Hakeem would have dominated back in 1964 somewhat like Wilt did, but was Olajuwon or is Duncan a track and field type of athlete, long-jump, high jump, 40 yard dash?

Hakeem was good at virtually any sport he did, but he was a soccer star and Duncan was an olympic quality swimmer

So you believe Hakeem had a better jumpshot and better post moves than Wilt? I am just amazed by the lack of understanding what Wilt did.
I can't believe that people think this way, it's beyond me, you can have your opinion and that's fine, but my opinion is that Hakeem Olajuwon is not even in same world of athlete thay Wilt was

Like you said Mikky D, its all opinion. I respect yours, but i just dont agree with it. I'm not saying wilt was terrible in the post, i just think he was more of a "dominant" scorer rather then being "versatile in the post", or the "most versatile ever"

Patrick Ewing had a better jumpshot than Olajuwon.

And David Robinson was a better athlete then Wilt, but we are talking about versatility here, not making the greatest centre of all time..

[EGarrett]

If you're going to assert something Mike...please back it up with an actual argument. You just quoted random people...and put-up some pictures...

Chamberlain averaged 50 points per game so that means he's the most versatile post player ever? No. That means he averaged 50 points a game. Lisa Leslie scored 102 points in one half of high school basketball and all she did was catch and lay the ball up over whoever was defending her. Dominance? Yes. Versatility? Not at all.

If you watched Wilt's games you might also have noticed that he wasn't double-teamed. They didn't allow double-teaming for most of Wilt's career. No one seems to mention that fact. How many points do you think Shaq would average today if teams couldn't double team him?

In fact...let's take a closer look at two of those pictures.



If you had seen Chamberlain play you would know why he's called the Big Dipper...his most common offensive move was jumping up and rolling the ball off of his hand into the basket. In this picture you posted that is exactly what Chamberlain is doing. If you look closely and compare it to Kareem, Chamberlain is not shooting a hook shot. In fact...he's making no effort to shield the ball at all...he's exploiting his size advantage and nothing more...simply holding the ball out over Reed's reach and dropping it towards the hoop. This shot, combined with dunking the ball...were Chamberlain's offense. He had no jump shot...like Shaq he shot about 50% from the line for his career. When teams did become allowed to double-team...you'll notice that Wilt's numbers dropped off to around 24 points per. It took him a whole season to figure out that he should start passing out and then the next year he lead the league in assists. It was no sign of skill though...he drew about 3 defenders.

Your quoting of tall tales means nothing without facts. Wilt outran an entire football team? I also heard him claim that he had sex with 20,000 women during his playing career. For that to work he'd have to have had sex with, on average, 2.5 women per day...every day of the year...from the age of puberty...until age 35. In other words...that claim...like many mythical tales that involved Chamberlain...was grossly exhaggerated.

Of course...this assumes that arguments about Wilt's prominence in track and field and football are relevant to the discussion...which they aren't. I stated that Hakeem was the most versatile post player ever. It almost sounds like you're trying to to argue that Wilt is the most versatile person ever. Well I suggest you look up Leonardo Da Vinci and Imhotep. If you're trying to argue that Wilt is the most versatile athlete ever...look up Babe Didrikson Zaharius and Jim Thorpe...both of whom actually competed at the pro level in different sports...no tall tales needed. But that's not NBA talk...the topic is Hakeem Olajuwon being the most versatile post player ever.



You looked at this picture and said he wasn't as bulky as Shaq. Um...and who in that picture comes remotely close to him in size? Who in the picture above that comes remotely close to him? No one he played against for the first 8 or so years of his career was as big, strong, fast or athletic as him. Everything is relative. And when Wilt did face someone who could match his size and athleticism...Kareem...he asked his teammates to double-team him. Wilt said it himself.

Face-up Jump shot? Hakeem yes. Wilt no.
Turn-around Jump shot? Hakeem yes...Wilt hit one once I think...
Free throws? Hakeem = 71%...Wilt = 51%
Hook shot? Hakeem = Both hands...Wilt = Never developed one...
Ballhandling? Hakeem = Killer crossover...Wilt = No evidence exists
Fakes? Hakeem = Dream shake that abused David Robinson and Shaq...both of whom were 2-3 inches taller and 10-50 pounds heavier...Wilt = Would fake his dipper drop to avoid having it blocked by Bill Russell...who was 3 inches shorter and 30-55 pounds lighter than him...other than that never...

Most dominant and repetitive scorer ever? Wilt yes...Hakeem no.
Most Versatile Post player ever? Hakeem Olajuwon yes. Wilt no.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

EGarrett wrote:

If you're going to assert something Mike...please back it up with an actual argument. You just quoted random people...and put-up some pictures...

I put up the pictures to show Wilt's size, that he was slender and not bulky like Shaq. Something he later was, but not during his scoring years from 1960-1965 or so.

EGarrett wrote:

Chamberlain averaged 50 points per game so that means he's the most versatile post player ever? No. That means he averaged 50 points a game. Lisa Leslie scored 102 points in one half of high school basketball and all she did was catch and lay the ball up over whoever was defending her. Dominance? Yes. Versatility? Not at all.

So Wilt Chamberlain and Lisa Leslie were/are not versatile right?
Ok then, if you say so.
What does Lisa Leslie have to do with this? What does it prove in relation to this argument?


EGarrett wrote:

If you watched Wilt's games you might also have noticed that he wasn't double-teamed. They didn't allow double-teaming for most of Wilt's career. No one seems to mention that fact. How many points do you think Shaq would average today if teams couldn't double-team him?

You are misinformed or more to the point are lying about this. I know you lie, I have several of them tucked away and have been informed of other wild tales you have told. But let's address your latest lie. I can assure everyone there was never a rule against double-teaming a player, this is so outrageous I can't believe the extent of it.

EGarrett wrote:

In fact...let's take a closer look at two of those pictures.



If you had seen Chamberlain play you would know why he's called the Big Dipper...his most common offensive move was jumping up and rolling the ball off of his hand into the basket. In this picture you posted that is exactly what Chamberlain is doing. If you look closely and compare it to Kareem, Chamberlain is not shooting a hook shot. In fact...he's making no effort to shield the ball at all...he's exploiting his size advantage and nothing more...simply holding the ball out over Reed's reach and dropping it towards the hoop. This shot, combined with dunking the ball...were Chamberlain's offense. He had no jump shot...like Shaq he shot about 50% from the line for his career. When teams did become allowed to double-team...you'll notice that Wilt's numbers dropped off to around 24 points per. It took him a whole season to figure out that he should start passing out and then the next year he led the league in assists. It was no sign of skill though...he drew about 3 defenders.

He has a great defender standing there in Willis Reed who is just a few inches shorter, but he's just flipping the ball over him like he's small guy?
Is that what you're saying. Seems a little farfetched and uninformed again. Also it seems like a pretty good post move or something, but that's probably wrong too.

So Wilt had no jump shot? Okay then if you say so.

Again with the double-team rule, I think your pants might be on fire.

Wilt became frustrated with all the talk that all he could do was score and he never passed the ball, so he added 8 assists to his game and thus his scoring was down, he still got 24 rebounds and shot .683 from the floor, I would like to see Hakeem do that.

But this was not a sign of his skill though right?
Your statements about him taking a whole season to figure something out is mind boggled bullshit. First of all there would have to be some rule change for him to have to figure out how to adjust his play, but of course people were allowed to double-team forever, it's just complete uttering.

I know why they called him Big Dipper by the way, who do you think you are talking to here? I do not mention this shit because it just falls from the sky.

EGarrett wrote:

Your quoting of tall tales means nothing without facts. Wilt outran an entire football team? I also heard him claim that he had sex with 20,000 women during his playing career. For that to work he'd have to have had sex with, on average, 2.5 women per day...every day of the year...from the age of puberty...until age 35. In other words...that claim...like many mythical tales that involved Chamberlain...was grossly exhaggerated.

Of course...this assumes that arguments about Wilt's prominence in track and field and football are relevant to the discussion...which they aren't. I stated that Hakeem was the most versatile post player ever. It almost sounds like you're trying to argue that Wilt is the most versatile person ever. Well I suggest you look up Leonardo Da Vinci and Imhotep. If you're trying to argue that Wilt is the most versatile athlete ever...look up Babe Didrikson Zaharius and Jim Thorpe...both of whom actually competed at the pro level in different sports...no tall tales needed. But that's not NBA talk...the topic is Hakeem Olajuwon being the most versatile post player ever.

Did I mention an entire football team liar?
What the hell does this crap about his woman have to do with either what someone else said about Wilt or this current argument? Thanks for the recap though, apparently you know what went on with him in the bedroom now?

Wilt played pro beach volleyball
But what some chick did 50 years ago really doesn't have anything to do with this, as you mentioned, but what was the point anyway?

EGarrett wrote:

Well I suggest you look up Leonardo Da Vinci and Imhotep.

What is going on here?

EGarrett wrote:

You looked at this picture and said he wasn't as bulky as Shaq. Um...and who in that picture comes remotely close to him in size? Who in the picture above that comes remotely close to him? No one he played against for the first 8 or so years of his career was as big, strong, fast or athletic as him. Everything is relative. And when Wilt did face someone who could match his size and athleticism...Kareem...he asked his teammates to double-team him. Wilt said it himself.

Well let's see here, some high school kids from the crowd and one guy from his from his team, I guess that pizza maker and that paperboy don't measure up to Wilt, dammit! Did you say Wilt was athletic? You must have made a mistake. When Wilt was 35 he was asking for help guarding a guy more versatile than Hakeem Olajuwon, who was also about 23-years-old, that Wilt goddamn he sucked.

By the way did you say double-team? Oh I remember they allowed it by then

Face-up Jump shot? Hakeem yes. Wilt no.
Turn-around jump shot? Hakeem yes...Wilt hit one once I think...
Free throws? Hakeem = 71%...Wilt = 51%
Hook shot? Hakeem = Both hands...Wilt = Never developed one...
Ballhandling? Hakeem = Killer crossover...Wilt = No evidence exists
Fakes? Hakeem = Dream shake that abused David Robinson and Shaq...both of whom were 2-3 inches taller and 10-50 pounds heavier...Wilt = Would fake his dipper drop to avoid having it blocked by Bill Russell...who was 3 inches shorter and 30-55 pounds lighter than him...other than that never...

Most dominant and repetitive scorer ever? Wilt yes...Hakeem no.
Most Versatile Post player ever? Hakeem Olajuwon yes. Wilt no.

So Wilt couldn't face the basket and shoot a jumper, at some point he had a turnaround jumper, he couldn't shoot free throws (true, but not really needing a whole lot of versatility now do they ), he couldn't do a hook shot, no evidence exists that he could dribble (wild statement ), he couldn't fake people very well and David Robinson 7'1" and Shaq 7'1" are both 2 or 3 inches taller than Hakeem who is 7'0".

Oh yeah Wilt was repetitive but not versatile.

Boy I wonder why how he for example got 24 points 24 rebounds and 8.6 assists one year? Or 50 ppg another?

Hakeem the Dream Olajuwon averaged 22 points 11 rebounds 2.5 assists for his career that is certainly more versatile and well rounded than Wilt Chamberlain's 30.1 ppg 22.9 rebs 4.4 assists. Shit he must have done all that flat footed and over a bunch of 6'6" centers.

Finally I give you this from the NBA.Com site itself:
http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

He was basketball's unstoppable force, the most awesome offensive force the game has ever seen. Asked to name the greatest players ever to play basketball, most fans and aficionados would put Wilt Chamberlain at or near the top of the list.

Dominating the game as few players in any sport ever have, Chamberlain seemed capable of scoring and rebounding at will, despite the double- and triple-teams and constant fouling tactics that opposing teams used to try to shut him down.

During his career, his dominance precipitated many rules changes. These rules changed included widening the lane, instituting offensive goaltending and revising rules governing inbounding the ball and shooting free throws (Chamberlain would leap with the ball from behind the foul line to deposit the ball in the basket).

Rules changes: Anything about not allowing double-teaming or anything of the sort? "Hey guys let's not allow them to double down on a player, even he's scoring at will."

1200 plus games never fouled out, how clumsy of him.

Was the waning production attributable to the effects of age and better defenses? Chamberlain didn't think so. "I look back and know that my last seven years in the league versus my first seven years were a joke in terms of scoring," he told the Philadelphia Daily News. "I stopped shooting -- coaches asked me to do that, and I did. I wonder sometimes if that was a mistake."

One of the main reasons coaches asked him to shoot less was to try to win more. Of the 14 years he played in the NBA, only twice did his teams emerge with the NBA title. In 1966-67, Sixers Coach Alex Hannum asked Chamberlain to pass the ball more often than shoot, and to play more aggressive defense. The strategy worked. Although he failed to win the NBA scoring title for the first time in his career, averaging 24.1 points, Chamberlain recorded the league's highest shooting percentage (.683), had the most rebounds (24.2 rpg), and was third in assists (7.8 apg).

And someone suggested it was about that league rule about not allowing double-teaming. I guess also it maybe didn't take him a year to figure something out, you see this is just another lie among many.

EGarrett wrote:

If you watched Wilt's games you might also have noticed that he wasn't double-teamed. They didn't allow double-teaming for most of Wilt's career. No one seems to mention that fact.

No one mentions it for a reason, it never was, hello?

You Ernest you should make it a habit of attacking me, it's so fun to read your wild stuff.

[DrNick]

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Ever Notice this was BEFORE the shotclock era

http://www.nba.com/analysis/00422949.html

Do your homework gangsta.

[EGarrett]

http://www.nba.com/history/jackson_50.html

"Q: When Willis Reed got hurt [in the 1970 Finals], was it the collective will of the team that helped beat the Lakers?

Jackson: Well, there was no doubt about it the fact that it was a "David vs. Goliath" type of attitude. Willis was 6'8", 6'9" and stretching it against one of the greatest scorers in the game, a seven-footer in Wilt Chamberlain. And the ball in those days was regulated where you couldn't double-team a center. You couldn't double team, although you could sink in his lap as long as you weren't illegal on defense. But we didn't double-team and rotate like the NBA basketball in the '90s. So isolation is really what everybody thought NBA basketball was about. You couldn't help and we had to have Willis basically on Wilt."

Now what were you saying?

[PoliceLineDoNotCross]

And the ball in those days was regulated where you couldn't double-team a center. You couldn't double team, although you could sink in his lap as long as you weren't illegal on defense

i believe that was off of nba.com too

paul pierce the truth, you got BURNED

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

No I am not burned

Regulate is not a rule, I checked this, I knew about this.

You can double-down on him, you were misled and misunderstood the rule.

You assumed Wilt Chamberlain ran free and had more or different chances that Hakeem did. He did not, there was never a rule about double-teaming a player with the ball. If they chose not to that's one thing, but there is and was never a rule against double-teams or triple-teams against a center. You misunderstand what Phil Jackson is saying there.


NBA.com wrote:

Dominating the game as few players in any sport ever have, Chamberlain seemed capable of scoring and rebounding at will, despite the double- and triple-teams and constant fouling tactics that opposing teams used to try to shut him down.

EGarrett wrote:

...although you could sink in his lap as long as you weren't illegal on defense. But we didn't double-team and rotate like the NBA basketball in the '90s. So isolation is really what everybody thought NBA basketball was about.

You put other words in my mouth and have a history of dishonesty, don't try to twist this into me lying about something. They chose their own defense, but they were never required not to double-team. If you can't understand the rule sorry, but it's the same rule they enforced until they recently (2 years ago) changed it.

So you maybe didn't flat out lie here, you misunderstood the rule, but you did act high and mighty without a clue of reality. Also you know everything else that has gone on, so I suggest you just stay away from my posts unless it's a little more thought out and not an attacking type of post. If you want to continue to fuck with me, I will always have an answer, I would like it better if you kept your nose out of my business.

[Matthew]

If you want to continue to fuck with me, I will always have an answer, I would like it better if you kept your nose out of my business

Mike, Ernest wasnt trying to fuck with you he just had a difference of opinion. Don't over react, EG is as entitled to shar his opinions as you, me or hell leo kap is. So if you post on a board and he doesnt agree with it, thats not him sticking "(his)nose in (your) business". Just relax mikky d, there is no topics on rugby here

[Shep]

who the hell cares about the NBA prior to the 1980's? i sure don't because it was nothing....an amateur league if you like. so you watch 3 games of ESPN classic on wilt chamberlain and after those 3 games you come to the conclusion that he is the best. all i know is that the nba had about 10 teams and 1 seven-footer in the entire league...who cares. shaq would've averaged 1 million points and 50 thousand rebounds per game in wilts time.

bill russell? who the hell is this? some 6-9 center getting 22 rebounds a game? the fukn teams shot about 400 shots combined, robinson gets 80 rebounds a game in that league. what so you see russell on some highlight reel tipping shots instead of palming them into the 10th row WOW that makes him the best defender ever

[Matthew]

Lol and don't forget bob cousy who could dribble between his legs!!

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

who the hell cares about the NBA prior to the 1980's? i sure don't because it was nothing....an amateur league if you like. so you watch 3 games of ESPN classic on wilt chamberlain and after those 3 games you come to the conclusion that he is the best. all i know is that the nba had about 10 teams and 1 seven-footer in the entire league...who cares. shaq would've averaged 1 million points and 50 thousand rebounds per game in wilts time.

bill russell? who the hell is this? some 6-9 center getting 22 rebounds a game? the fukn teams shot about 400 shots combined, robinson gets 80 rebounds a game in that league. what so you see russell on some highlight reel tipping shots instead of palming them into the 10th row WOW that makes him the best defender ever

Very insightful, thanks

Yeah tipping a blockshot to a teammate is stupid when you can swat it into the 10th row and give it back to the other team.

This is a complete summary of your knowledge of basketball from the anything prior to 1980?

About EGarrett's opinion, it is based on misinformation, I do admit I was bit harsh here and there, but he is not my favorite person, his honesty is a completely based on what fits into his logic, not the actual facts.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

When you want to use the double-team to your benefit they did it and when you want to make it against the rules then you use this logic to your benefit.

They didn't allow double-teaming for most of Wilt's career

Was there a period of time when they allowed it? The season or time Phil Jackson refers to is 1973, same as when Wilt must have been asking for help guarding Alcindor (Kareem).

Everything is relative. And when Wilt did face someone who could match his size and athleticism...Kareem...he asked his teammates to double-team him. Wilt said it himself.

First they didn't allow double-teaming on Wilt, but then Wilt asked his teammates to double-team Lew Alcindor or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

This is the sort of thing that makes you seem like some bullshitter who puts together all these statements as fact and doesn't expect anyone do anything about it. The fact is that not using a double or triple-team on a player that is bigger or better than his man just makes no sense, no matter what you read from Phil Jackson's statements, the rules for defense were revised in 1981 about illegal defenses and changed 2 seasons ago to allow zones, at no time in Wilt's career was the rule adjusted to or from not allowing a man to rotate back and help with a double-team, even during the period of 1981-2002 when the rules were more exact about zones, you were allowed to double a man if had the ball, especially down low, how could you believe otherwise? This is basic common sense.

Rule 12 Fouls and Penalties
2. Guildlines for Defensive Coverage
c) An offensive player without the ball may not be double-teamed from the weak side. Only the player with the ball may be double-teamed, by a weak side defender.
Weak side and strong side restrictions shall not extend above the tip of the circle.

This was the rule until the recent zone rule.

[Shep]

Yeah tipping a blockshot to a teammate is stupid when you can swat it into the 10th row and give it back to the other team

notice how i never mentioned it being stupid...i watch video highlights and he's supposed to be the greatest defensive player ever and the only good thing i see him doing is tipping shots to himself. tell me statman, since they didn't record blocked shots back then in the black and white/6-3 center/90% of players white days, how do you know he was any good? or are you just going by his 22 rebounds a game to decide how good he was on the defensive end?

This is a complete summary of your knowledge of basketball from the anything prior to 1980?

please try to make sense if you expect an answer.

[EGarrett]

I never said there was a specific rule against double-teaming a center. I said that double-teaming "wasn't allowed" for most of Wilt's career. My statement easily falls under the umbrella of "the way ball was regulated back then you couldn't double team."

But you seem to like links and quotes Mike so let's use some of those.
____________________________________________

Regulate is not a rule, I checked this, I knew about this.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=regulation

reg·u·la·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rgy-lshn)
n.
1. The act of regulating or the state of being regulated.
2. A principle, rule, or law designed to control or govern conduct.
3. A governmental order having the force of law. Also called executive order.
4. Embryology. The capacity of an embryo to continue normal development following injury to or alteration of a structure.
5. Sports. The standard playing period for a timed game, prior to overtime or a shootout.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=regulation

Entry: regulation
Function: noun
Definition: rule

_____________________________________________

The season or time Phil Jackson refers to is 1973, same as when Wilt must have been asking for help guarding Alcindor (Kareem)....First they didn't allow double-teaming on Wilt, but then Wilt asked his teammates to double-team Lew Alcindor or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Q: When Willis Reed got hurt [in the 1970 Finals], was it the collective will of the team that helped beat the Lakers?

Do your homework, gangsta.

______________________________________________

at no time in Wilt's career was the rule adjusted to or from not allowing a man to rotate back and help with a double-team

You couldn't help and we had to have Willis basically on Wilt.

______________________________________________

Now...I said that Wilt wasn't double-teamed for most of his career. I also said it wasn't allowed.

You said that I was a liar. You said my pants were on fire. You said you could assure everyone that there was NEVER a rule against double-teaming and that the very idea was so outrageous that you couldn't believe it.

Phil Jackson said that "the way ball was regulated you couldn't double-team." He then reiterated that "you couldn't double-team." He also added that "you couldn't help and we had to have Willis basically on Wilt."

I'll ask NBA_Fan, Shep, PoliceLineDoNotCross or whoever else...do you think I was lying? Do you think I misled you with my statement that double-teaming wasn't allowed? Who was really closer to the truth?

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Yeah tipping a blockshot to a teammate is stupid when you can swat it into the 10th row and give it back to the other team

notice how i never mentioned it being stupid...i watch video highlights and he's supposed to be the greatest defensive player ever and the only good thing i see him doing is tipping shots to himself. tell me statman, since they didn't record blocked shots back then in the black and white/6-3 center/90% of players white days, how do you know he was any good? or are you just going by his 22 rebounds a game to decide how good he was on the defensive end?

This is a complete summary of your knowledge of basketball from the anything prior to 1980?

please try to make sense if you expect an answer.

I ment to say

This is a complete summary of your knowledge of basketball for anything prior to 1980?

But since I screwed the whole question up, nevermind.

I judge Bill Russell on the facts, yes, because I have only seen around 15 games or so myself.

Bill Russell won 11 championships with the Celtics in 13 seasons.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/russell_bio.html

Bill Russell was the cornerstone of the Boston Celtics' dynasty of the 1960s, an uncanny shotblocker who revolutionized NBA defensive concepts. A five-time NBA Most Valuable Player and a 12-time All-Star, the angular center amassed 21,620 career rebounds, an average of 22.5 per game and led the league in rebounding four times. He had 51 boards in one game, 49 in two others and a dozen consecutive seasons of 1,000 or more rebounds.

Until the ascent of Michael Jordan in the 1980s, Russell was acclaimed by many as the greatest player in the history of the NBA.

1961-62, saw Russell register an 18.9 scoring average, his career high. Chamberlain's individual accomplishments were mind-boggling: he won the scoring title by averaging 50.4 points, while the team-oriented Celtics didn't place anybody in the top 10. The NBA players, voting for MVP, chose Russell over Chamberlain.

Well since he was not exactly the best shooter or scorer, one would assume that most of his domination was on the defensive end.

It somehow doesn't impress you that he blocked the shot to himself?
Spiking the ball into the stands may seem cool, but I think the tipping the ball to yourself and teammates is a better way, but oh well whatever you like.

I think Russell was the Greatest Defender Ever, the facts hold this up.

But if you are not impressed, hey whatever you like.

[Stevan]

who the hell cares about the NBA prior to the 1980's? i sure don't because it was nothing....an amateur league if you like. so you watch 3 games of ESPN classic on wilt chamberlain and after those 3 games you come to the conclusion that he is the best. all i know is that the nba had about 10 teams and 1 seven-footer in the entire league...who cares. shaq would've averaged 1 million points and 50 thousand rebounds per game in wilts time.

bill russell? who the hell is this? some 6-9 center getting 22 rebounds a game? the fukn teams shot about 400 shots combined, robinson gets 80 rebounds a game in that league. what so you see russell on some highlight reel tipping shots instead of palming them into the 10th row WOW that makes him the best defender ever

LMAO - this is easily the best post in the thread. Great summary of basketball in those days. Who wants to see Bob Cousy slapping at the ball and looking at it like it has breasts, like the guys at the local YMCA or whatever.

And Mike, I love the fact that you put in so much effort into your posts and stuff, it's great and all, but man don't take everything so personally. Nobody's attacking you if they disagree with you.

The original argument of Hakeem being a more versatile post player seems to have been lost amongst completely irrelevant stuff. I think it's pretty simple: Wilt used his size to score, Hakeem did it in other ways. We are talking scoring here. Passing out of the post, defending the post, etc are different arguments which aren't relevant to scoring versatility. Scoring versatility in the post, I think can be judged only by watching both guys play.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Look EGarrett the guy who Pmed me like a bunch of times and so on and so on, you ignore the reference about Kareem, you ignore the fact that Jackson also said:

...although you could sink in his lap as long as you weren't illegal on defense. But we didn't double-team and rotate like the NBA basketball in the '90s. So isolation is really what everybody thought NBA basketball was about.

Because this doesn't fit the complete no double-team thing you need here.

The idea Jackson is trying to convey is that it was not the way it was done, that they used iso and that was what they did. I write the rule for you directly from the rules history book sitting here on my desk, but you ignore that as well.

When I pointed to 1973 I figured that was when Phil Jackson was talking about "we" helping Reed since he didn't play in the 1970 Finals.

He underwent spinal fusion surgery and missed the Knicks' first championship season, 1969-70

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/phil_jacks ... l?nav=page

But I have had enough.
'Regulate' which in this context refers to certain rules, not a strict rule.
It's also what Phil Jackson said and it's not a rule, just like I said. It's not in the rules, it's not a rule, do you understand? The didn't say regulate, this was Phil Jackson, god oh mighty, you pick on words and not facts.

They regulated the way you could double-team is what he is saying, he may have said you couldn't double-team, but he backed off, something you refuse to do, you ignore the part of the statement you wish too.

You sit there on your high horse and tell me that they were never allowed to double Wilt, then mention how Wilt asked for help with double-teams on Kareem, you just dance around it. I didn't say you said they couldn't double a center, I was using your quote of Phil Jackson.

Fuck it, you won't admit that a double-team was allowed when a man has the ball in the post, fine it's over, NBA.COM lied here:

http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_bio.html

Dominating the game as few players in any sport ever have, Chamberlain seemed capable of scoring and rebounding at will, despite the double- and triple-teams and constant fouling tactics that opposing teams used to try to shut him down.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

If you're going to assert something Mike...please back it up with an actual argument. You just quoted random people...and put-up some pictures...

Oh by the way I can assert things any way I want, so don't tell me how to assert something