CPU Offense - Discussion

[Dee4Three]

Hi all,

I've played the game quite a bit at this point on HOF and with slider adjustments. Do you find the CPU offense to be incredibly weak and unrealistic?

Most of the time, I am holding the CPU to under 35% from the field, sometimes MUCH worse (Like against the Jazz using the Heat, they were 3-19 when I quit). I feel like the CPU doesn't play offense realistic at all, I see Draymond Green taking on the move three's (Moving to his side), and doing stepback threes, Robin Lopez taking a slew of contested mid range shots, the CPU skating into the middle of the paint and just standing there dribbling for a few seconds around like 4 guys, kicking it out to a shooter who won't take an open shot, or going up on those 4 guys. I find this CPU to be the most unintelligent between any last gen or current gen 2K's.

Getting blocks is so easy, offensive players from the other team consistently take it up right into the defenders around the basket. The shot selection from the CPU in general doesn't resemble a real life basketball game in the least. The skating makes it even worse.

I find this the easiest 2K I have ever played, offensively and defensively. I am finding that no matter what you do with the sliders, the CPU plays the same way offensively.

Anybody else?

[timmyd]

Hey Dee, as far as realism. I changed A LOT of tendencies! Now I don't see DeMar Derozan pulling up for a 3 on a fast break etc.

[Dee4Three]

Hey Dee, as far as realism. I changed A LOT of tendencies! Now I don't see DeMar Derozan pulling up for a 3 on a fast break etc.

Very nice. But did you notice that the default game itself is not a good showing for the CPU? I'm guessing you went in and adjusted because you realized they weren't playing realistic at all.

[diamenz]

with tendency and playbook edits, the cpu plays great. check out vannwolfhawk's playbook edits on os.

[Dee4Three]

with tendency and playbook edits, the cpu plays great. check out vannwolfhawk's playbook edits on os.

I will look it up.

It doesn't change how ridiculous they play by default. And, does his included classic teams?

[diamenz]

it actually does, that's what makes it so great. guy is a coach irl, and I've used his edits in past 2k's with much enjoyment. hos thread is in the roster subforunm btw. gl.

[Dee4Three]

it actually does, that's what makes it so great. guy is a coach irl, and I've used his edits in past 2k's with much enjoyment. hos thread is in the roster subforunm btw. gl.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll check it out!

[Andrew]

There's definitely some strange tendencies by default, players pulling up for threes when it's not their game, and so on. It's good that we have the tools to do something about it, but a shame the default rosters seem to have overlooked so many issues.

[StyxTx]

Sounds like the other game.

So what is being said is the game developers don't know how to program a basketball game. I agree with that.

[Dee4Three]

Sounds like the other game.

So what is being said is the game developers don't know how to program a basketball game. I agree with that.

That is kind of what I am getting at, yes.

And the differences with 2K17, is the players wouldn't skate into the pain and just dribble there. I've played a full season against the CPU on 2K17 (HOF default) and they will instead pull up from mid range if they have blue sky, or if they do kick it out, the player will shoot if he's open.

But, 2K17 wasn't without its faults. Players did step backs when wide open, or took off balance threes with nobody around them, and they also did sometimes go up on like 4 people instead of kicking it out. Also, 2K17s transition defense is horrible, and people get backdoored too often.

[diamenz]

unfortunately, I think what 2k aims for with tendencies is more of a signature approach to players rather than an plain logical based one.

take mj for example. now im not sure off hand whether this is true or not, but just for argument's sake, 2k would typically give him a 99 fadeaway tendency rating, because that's wat mj did, right? a more sensible approach would be to set it around 75, so that it would give him other options in the post besides fading away almost all of the damn time.

I know that this is a little beside the point because u guys are talking about ridiculously rated tendencies like bird having a shoot off acreen rating like five or ten, lol... but I just wanted to throw that out there. tendency edits are a must for a more sim experience, it's just too bad we don't understand them the way the devs do. I am grateful that we have them tho.

[Dee4Three]

I see what you are saying. You bring up good points. Btw, Jordan became more so fadeaway Mike in his later years, most of his career he did a lot more offensively.

But my point is, players shouldn't run into the paint and just stand there dribbling, only to go up on 4 people, or pass out to guys that won't shoot. Players shouldn't be jacking up 3's and other outside shots contested when it's shots they would seldom take, or maybe never take in an NBA game.

The way I do tendencies, is I will not only sim seasons to make sure the stats come out right, but I'll put the players out there CPU vs CPU to make sure they are playing right. You can't tell me that a company with this much money, with so many people working on the game, can't sim these games and watch how they play to make sure they are playing right. And, if they do watch, they can't possibly believe that it's realistic in any way shape or form.

Diamenz, If you and I were sitting there watching the CPU play the CPU, and we were game developers and testers, we would look at each other and go "this is unacceptable" and we would go in and tweak, and tweak, until we got it right.

[diamenz]

agreed. as we all know by now, 2k is notoriously known for throwing us a work-in-progress game that usually isn't tuned and balanced to a decent state until new year's, and ideally the second quarter of the following year lol. i think i remember an older 2k (pretty recent actually) where guards would drive and then just dribble in the paint for a couple of seconds before making a move, it's pretty bad that that same issue is back, and as you said something as glaringly obvious as it is.

i think the real problem is all of the modes. imagine if 2k focused on 5v5 nba basketball only... imagine where we would be right now from a sim standpoint.

[Dee4Three]

Absolutely. The online game has certainly hurt the offline game, in a major way. They cater so much to that because it's a huge money maker, and people will buy VC to jack up the player. They make a boatload in VC.

And, it's sad... because even after the tuning updates you mention, it's still not even close to right.

I went back last night and played 2K10, the CPU is much more disciplined. The CPU will literally light you up and blow you out if you are not disciplined yourself. They recognize when they are open, they recognize close outs, they move the ball, etc. Is it perfect? No, but it's better. The defense is also more disciplined.

The newer games are getting easier, because it's truly catering to the online play, and the casual gamers. People want things to be as easy possible now, the amount of complaints I have read about "I CAN'T SHOOT!!" blows me away. Last year, it was constant complaining about that. It goes back also to the snobby online gamer talk that I hear, they somehow look down on offline players. The community itself seems to be filled with mostly cocky brats who want everything handed to them, who complain about things like it being to hard to shoot.

Meanwhile, us offline gamers are dealing with a whole slew of issues. But the super casual gamer, who is sometimes the super casual fan, won't notice a lot of the issues, or none of them at all. Which means, 2K can get away with that poor quality tendency wise, attribute wise, and even pure gameplay wise.

[StyxTx]

I see what you are saying. You bring up good points. Btw, Jordan became more so fadeaway Mike in his later years, most of his career he did a lot more offensively.

But my point is, players shouldn't run into the paint and just stand there dribbling, only to go up on 4 people, or pass out to guys that won't shoot. Players shouldn't be jacking up 3's and other outside shots contested when it's shots they would seldom take, or maybe never take in an NBA game.

The way I do tendencies, is I will not only sim seasons to make sure the stats come out right, but I'll put the players out there CPU vs CPU to make sure they are playing right. You can't tell me that a company with this much money, with so many people working on the game, can't sim these games and watch how they play to make sure they are playing right. And, if they do watch, they can't possibly believe that it's realistic in any way shape or form.

Diamenz, If you and I were sitting there watching the CPU play the CPU, and we were game developers and testers, we would look at each other and go "this is unacceptable" and we would go in and tweak, and tweak, until we got it right.

Ah. Maybe the developers don't realize that what they see, if they do test it, isn't what should be happening.

A lot of what 2k does in it's game makes me think the developers don't know much about basketball and they try to mask it with all the bells and whistles. Certainly game play has been poor for quite a while and many of the issues have been complained about over and over without any resolution. It is possible they don't know how to fix the issues.

One thing I learned long ago, just because someone is considered "professional" at what they do doesn't necessarily mean they know what they are doing.

To me, they seem more like marketers than developers. Every year they come out with more and more ways to get users to spend more and more money on the game while the game, outside of the bells and whistles, remains pretty much the same.

[sticky-fingers]

i think the real problem is all of the modes. imagine if 2k focused on 5v5 nba basketball only... imagine where we would be right now from a sim standpoint.

Who really care, except us ? Most players play MyCareer or MyPark, thoses modes with VC ...

To me, they seem more like marketers than developers. Every year they come out with more and more ways to get users to spend more and more money on the game while the game, outside of the bells and whistles, remains pretty much the same.

Totally agree. This year, who care to hear Kobe or KG time to time ? it's cool but...
However 2K hired Leftos and Jaosming but we still cant see their contribution on the gameplay

[Jeffx]

I don't see a lot of nonsense on the PS3 version. The CPU uses ISOs, PNRs, drives-and-dishes and post plays (if a team has a quality big man like Brook Lopez).

I get killed because the defensive AI is still broken - defenders will leave 3-point shooters wide open to guard a big man or to chase a penetrating PG. That's what happened to me when playing OKC - Westbrook drives the lane, three defenders converge on him, he kicks out to an open Carmelo - you can figure out what's next. I lose by 3 (using the Knicks).

[Andrew]

However 2K hired Leftos and Jaosming but we still cant see their contribution on the gameplay

Not their area. Leftos is a member of the MyLEAGUE/MyGM team, while JaoSming is a producer on 2K TV.

[sticky-fingers]

So, 2K took two of the best modders of NLSC for working on a sitcom mode and on a tv show

[Andrew]

MyLEAGUE isn't a "sitcom mode" by any stretch of the imagination. Some legacy issues aside, it's a very deep and robust franchise mode, an evolved version of The Association. MyGM has adopted a story this year of course, but it too is a franchise mode at the end of the day, one that people have enjoyed in the past (MyLEAGUE admittedly appeals more to me). As Leftos has often mentioned, franchise modes are something he's passionate about; before he joined the team at Visual Concepts, he was throwing out some revolutionary ideas, some of which have actually since been implemented. In his capacity on the 2K team, he both develops ideas and does actual coding on those modes. He's working in the area that is his passion and forte.

In addition to modding, JaoSming was also creating a lot of other community-driven content here at the NLSC and on his YouTube channel, which is one of the aims behind 2K TV. That's basically how that particular opportunity came about. His familiarity with the basketball gaming community and passion for creating content are obviously assets there.

I'll pretty much have to leave it at that, lest I reveal any confidential details or parts of the story that aren't really mine to tell, but suffice to say, there are reasons why Jon and Leftos are in the roles they're in (and I think it's safe to say, enjoying being in those roles). I'm sure they make their suggestions to their colleagues, but that's not their chief responsibility. Also, if it's an ultra sim experience you're after, by his own admission in many articles and podcasts, Jon might not be the guy to head up the gameplay team.

Mike Wang, Scott O'Gallagher, and Da_Czar are some of the main people when it comes to gameplay, AI, and strategy, because that's their passion and wheelhouse.

[sticky-fingers]

You understood that "sitcom" was related to MyGM this year.

Thanx for the explanations Andrew.
So, 2K should hire you as a real community manager, and Dee4Three now for working on rosters and gameplay

[Andrew]

Oh, you couldn't pay me enough to be a community manager. Well, you probably could, but it's not a role that I'd relish!

[StyxTx]

MyLEAGUE isn't a "sitcom mode" by any stretch of the imagination. Some legacy issues aside, it's a very deep and robust franchise mode, an evolved version of The Association. MyGM has adopted a story this year of course, but it too is a franchise mode at the end of the day, one that people have enjoyed in the past (MyLEAGUE admittedly appeals more to me). As Leftos has often mentioned, franchise modes are something he's passionate about; before he joined the team at Visual Concepts, he was throwing out some revolutionary ideas, some of which have actually since been implemented. In his capacity on the 2K team, he both develops ideas and does actual coding on those modes. He's working in the area that is his passion and forte.

In addition to modding, JaoSming was also creating a lot of other community-driven content here at the NLSC and on his YouTube channel, which is one of the aims behind 2K TV. That's basically how that particular opportunity came about. His familiarity with the basketball gaming community and passion for creating content are obviously assets there.

I'll pretty much have to leave it at that, lest I reveal any confidential details or parts of the story that aren't really mine to tell, but suffice to say, there are reasons why Jon and Leftos are in the roles they're in (and I think it's safe to say, enjoying being in those roles). I'm sure they make their suggestions to their colleagues, but that's not their chief responsibility. Also, if it's an ultra sim experience you're after, by his own admission in many articles and podcasts, Jon might not be the guy to head up the gameplay team.

Mike Wang, Scott O'Gallagher, and Da_Czar are some of the main people when it comes to gameplay, AI, and strategy, because that's their passion and wheelhouse.

Based on the lack of improvement in gameplay the past 3 or 4 years, and the AI, at best, not improving and, at worst, getting worse, IMO I'd have to say those 3 are extremely overpaid.

[Dee4Three]

Based on the lack of improvement in gameplay the past 3 or 4 years, and the AI, at best, not improving and, at worst, getting worse, IMO I'd have to say those 3 are extremely overpaid.

The problem is, it feels like it's going backwards. As stated in the other thread, we are getting away from players playing authentic, players differentiating from eachother. We are getting away from stars feeling like stars. In 2K18, that is mostly thrown out the window. Players all blend in together, speeds/dribbles of players like the 10-11 Kidd match Iverson, so does the scoring ability. In all honesty about the gameplay...

The gameplay feels like something out of the mid 2000's.... the players all skating all over the floor, the players speeds/abilities blending in together, even players bodies all blending in together.

The graphics have taken a step backwards with huge heads, horrible lighting, marshmallow bodies, eyes going through eyelids, basically one body type.

Because this is the offense thread. The offense in the game is no fun, at all for me. Because of the players all blending in together, the ability to drive with anybody at any time, the skating. I don't like looking at the game or playing it. I would agree that these guys are overpaid based on the gameplay. Whoever does the rosters... and I doubt you will read this... you have no idea what you are doing in regards to signatures. The shot choices at the line and shooting animation choices are so far off on so many players it's insane. How can a company this big, hire someone or people doing the rosters that are so far off on so many things? It blows me away.

[Jeffx]

Based on the lack of improvement in gameplay the past 3 or 4 years, and the AI, at best, not improving and, at worst, getting worse, IMO I'd have to say those 3 are extremely overpaid.

The problem is, it feels like it's going backwards. As stated in the other thread, we are getting away from players playing authentic, players differentiating from eachother. We are getting away from stars feeling like stars. In 2K18, that is mostly thrown out the window. Players all blend in together, speeds/dribbles of players like the 10-11 Kidd match Iverson, so does the scoring ability. In all honesty about the gameplay...

The gameplay feels like something out of the mid 2000's.... the players all skating all over the floor, the players speeds/abilities blending in together, even players bodies all blending in together.

The graphics have taken a step backwards with huge heads, horrible lighting, marshmallow bodies, eyes going through eyelids, basically one body type.

Because this is the offense thread. The offense in the game is no fun, at all for me. Because of the players all blending in together, the ability to drive with anybody at any time, the skating. I don't like looking at the game or playing it. I would agree that these guys are overpaid based on the gameplay. Whoever does the rosters... and I doubt you will read this... you have no idea what you are doing in regards to signatures. The shot choices at the line and shooting animation choices are so far off on so many players it's insane. How can a company this big, hire someone or people doing the rosters that are so far off on so many things? It blows me away.

Co-sign. If I could ever find a way to get updated rosters for 2k11, I'd go back to that game in a heartbeat. Everything felt so smooth. Dudes may disagree with me, but the series hasn't been the same since.