Candid post by Xbox One engineer

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Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Leftos on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:17 am

Originally posted on http://t.co/KGBzqO5O2e, reposting here in case it gets taken down:

>The thing is we suck at telling the story. The whole point of the DRM switch from disc based to cloud based is to kill disc swapping, scratched discs, bringing discs to friends house, trade-ins for shit value with nothign going back to developers, and high game costs. If you want games cheaper then 59.99, you have to limit used games somehow. Steam's model requires a limited used game model.

>The thing is, the DRM is really really similar to steam... You can login anywhere and play your games, anyone in your house can play with the family xbox. The only diff is steam you have to sign in before playing, and Xbox does it automatically at night for you (once per 24 hours)

>It's a long tail strategy, just like steam. Steam had it's growing pains at the beginning with all it's drm shit as well. [...] For digital downloads steam had no real competition at the time, they were competing against boxed sales. At the time people were pretty irate about steam, (on 4chan too...) It was only once they had a digital marketplace with DRM that was locked down to prevent sharing that they could do super discounted shit.

>Think about it, on steam you get a game for the true cost of the game, 5$-30$. On a console you have to pay for that PLUS any additional licenses for when you sell / trade / borrow / etc. If the developer / publisher can't get it on additional licenses (like steam), then they charge the first person more. [...] If we say "Hey publishers, you limit game to 39.99, we ensure every license transfer you get 10$, gamestop gets 20$" that is a decent model... Microsoft gets a license fee on first and subsequent game purchases, compared to just first now? That's a revenue increase.

>Competition is the best man, it helps drive both to new heights. See technology from the Cold War. If we had no USSR, we'd be way worse off today. TLDR: Bring it on Steam :)

2/4

>Yeah we passed that around the office at Xbox. Most of us were like "Well played Sony, Well played". That being said they are just riding the hype train of ZOMG THEY ARE TRYING TO FUCK US FOR NO REASON. Without actually thinking about how convienent it would be for the majority of the time to not find that disc your brother didn't put back... [...] just simpleminded people not seeing the bigger picture. Some PS4 viral team made them all "U TOOK R DISCS" and they hiveminded.

>Everyone and their mother complains about how gamestop fucks them on their trade ins, getting 5$ for their used games. We come in trying to find a way to take money out of gamestop, and put some in developers and get you possibly cheaper games and everyone bitches at MS. Well, if you want the @#$@ing from Gamestop, go play PS4.

>The goal is to move to digital downloads, but Gamestop, Walmart, Target, Amazon are KIND OF FUCKING ENTRENCHED in the industry. They have a lot of power, and the shift has to be gradual. Long term goal is steam for consoles. [...] If you always want to stay with what you have, then keep current consoles, or a PS4. We're TRYING to move the industry forwards towards digital distribution... it'sa bumpy road

>Publishers have enourmous power. Microsoft is trying to balance between consumer delight, and publisher wishes. If we cave to far in either direction you have a non-starting product. WiiU goes too far to consumer, you have no 3rd party support to shake a stick at. PS4 is status-quo. XB1 is trying to push some things, at the expense of others. We have a vision, we'll see if it works in the coming years

>Living room transformation. We want to own the living room. Every living room TV with an XBox on input one. It's the thing that gives the signal to your TV, everything is secondary. The future, where games, TV, internet telephony, all that shit happens magically on some huge ass screen with hand / voice gestures... That's our goal.


3/4

>Google TV + PS4 + Minority report level gestures, that combined with a sick second screen experience (which is really hot for TV, I know I know.. tv tv tv tv tv... but it's fucking sick when you have it). Games will be the same, there are more exclusives to MS then PS atm, and Kinect 2 makes Kinect 1 look like a childs toy.

>By default it's on, listening for "Xbox On". You can turn it off tho, and turn the console like OFF off. OFF off is required for Germany / other countries that require it (no vampire appliances) [...] It has to be plugged in for the console to post. You can turn off everything it does from the settings. Think of it like airplane mode for the iPhone. You can't just unplug the cellular radio, but you can turn it off.

>Instead of 10mins, is 24hrs for your console, and 1 or 2 at a friends house. Really the majority of people have a speck of internet at least once a day. And if you don't. Don't buy an Xbox 1. Just like if you didn't have a broadband connection don't get Live, and if you don't have an HDTV the 360 isn't that great for you either. New tech, new req. This allows us to do cool shit when we can assume things like you have a kinect, you have internet, etc.

>Current plan is basically you're fucked after 24 hours. Yeah... I know. Kind of sucks. I believe they will probably revist the time period and / or find a diff way to "call in" to ensure you haven't sold your license to gamestop or something... but there is no plan YET. I'm hoping the change it, but I don't work on that so I don't have much influence there /sigh

>If the power goes out you ain't playing shit. I'm assuming you mean the internet goes out but you have power for TV and Xbox. Yes, You're fucked for single player games. Again, that's the PoR (Plan of record), but I expect it to change after the e3 clusterfuck

>What fee? There is no fee to play your games at your friends house. Never has, never will. Even x360 digital downloads could do that.


4/4

>The cloud capabilities is the shit they like the most. We basically made a huge cloud compute shit and made it free. What people are doing with it is kind of cool. THe original intention was to get all the Multiplayer servers not requiring 3rd party costs (Like EA shutting down game servers to cut costs), as well as taking all the games that servers hosted by the clients (Halo, etc), and have all that compute done in the cloud allowing more CPU cycles for gameplay. That will really expand what developers can do. Anything that doesn't need per frame calculation and can handle 100ms delays can be shifted to the cloud. That's huge.

>SmartGlass + IE is going to be pretty freaking sweet. 1 finger cursor, 2 finger direct manip. Basically if you think of a laptop trackpad where your phone/ slate is the trackpad and the monitor is your TV... it's that. The tech is there, just needs to be applied. There is some really cool shit going on with Petra + controllers that pairs people with controllers. So if person with controller two trades controlers with controller 1, their profiles magically switch. It's sick. What does this matter? Now if you lean left/right it knows which person is leaning, even if 4 people are all int he same room. It's awesome.

>New service using Azure for cloud compute. Allows developers to not use clients for hosting multiplayer servers, or other tasks that do not require per frame calcuations. It's pretty sweet.

>Honestly, if you care about anything other then pure games AT ALL. Xbox 1 > PS4. If all you do is play games, and nothing else, PS4.

This was all from the Microsoft engineer that was on /b/ last night.

>It's not worth my time to prove it, or risk my Job. I work in Studio A, 40th ave in Redmond, Wa. The thai place in the studio cafeteria has double punch wednesdays. Go ahead and call them and verify if you want.


The connection to Steam is interesting, IFF Xbox One games end up being lower than $60 after all. If they don't, then the whole strategy is moot. Also, 24h is still a pretty limited window. Going on holiday for a few days with your console should still be a possibility.

Enlarge the offline window by 7, give me publishers saying "yes, in the Xbox One model our game will be $35 instead of $60, since we don't have to worry about used sales that we get no cut of", get more countries in your Xbox Live list Day 1, and you might just get me interested, Microsoft.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Andrew on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:33 am

Certainly candid and a very interesting read. Perhaps some elements were explained poorly, but some of those points are still offputting, as are some of the statements that are somewhat arrogant/playing the victim.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby shadowgrin on Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:51 am

The whole point of the DRM switch from disc based to cloud based is to kill disc swapping, scratched discs, bringing discs to friends house, trade-ins for shit value with nothign going back to developers, and high game costs. If you want games cheaper then 59.99, you have to limit used games somehow. Steam's model requires a limited used game model.

So bottom line, it's still about the money.


The thing is, the DRM is really really similar to steam... You can login anywhere and play your games, anyone in your house can play with the family xbox. The only diff is steam you have to sign in before playing, and Xbox does it automatically at night for you (once per 24 hours)

LOL. Steam doesn't require online checkups. You can also play Steam games in offline mode for those games that don't require an online connection for gameplay, like single player games. lol also at that last one, like Steam doesn't have an auto-log in option every time you turn on your PC. Comparing the XBOne's online checkup to Steam is retarded.


Think about it, on steam you get a game for the true cost of the game, 5$-30$. On a console you have to pay for that PLUS any additional licenses for when you sell / trade / borrow / etc. If the developer / publisher can't get it on additional licenses (like steam), then they charge the first person more. [...] If we say "Hey publishers, you limit game to 39.99, we ensure every license transfer you get 10$, gamestop gets 20$" that is a decent model... Microsoft gets a license fee on first and subsequent game purchases, compared to just first now? That's a revenue increase.

Ha. I doubt they could dictate the prices to publishers, after all he said it himself...
Publishers have enourmous power

Besides if dictating the prices to publishers were that easy then people won't have to pay $60 for AAA games in Steam during new releases or waiting for daily and seasonal sales for the prices to drop.


Instead of 10mins, is 24hrs for your console, and 1 or 2 at a friends house. Really the majority of people have a speck of internet at least once a day. And if you don't. Don't buy an Xbox 1. Just like if you didn't have a broadband connection don't get Live, and if you don't have an HDTV the 360 isn't that great for you either. New tech, new req. This allows us to do cool shit when we can assume things like you have a kinect, you have internet, etc.

I still doubt how the Kinect spying on people's households is a cool thing.


Current plan is basically you're fucked after 24 hours. Yeah... I know. Kind of sucks. I believe they will probably revist the time period and / or find a diff way to "call in" to ensure you haven't sold your license to gamestop or something... but there is no plan YET. I'm hoping the change it, but I don't work on that so I don't have much influence there /sigh

I like how he says repeatedly that the XBOne team's vision is to be like Steam and yet fails at a simple thing with the XBOne's required online 'call ins'.


Honestly, if you care about anything other then pure games AT ALL. Xbox 1 > PS4. If all you do is play games, and nothing else, PS4

PS4 the better gaming console, confirmed.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Leftos on Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:55 am

How long can Steam stay offline before complaining? If Microsoft matches that and publishers actually make their games cheaper (both of which I doubt), then they might have a point.

And enough about Kinect spying people's homes. IT CAN BE TURNED OFF. This specific argument is tiring. Yes, having that be opt-out is bullshit, but it's not like you're forced to have it on.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby shadowgrin on Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:49 am

Based on experience at least 3 months. Playing NBA 2K9.
I would have said 3 years, from 2K9 (2008) up to the point some dope fag gave me excess game keys for Steam and TF2 becoming F2P (2011) but I think I had to connect the Steam client online just so it can download and install the update patch for 2K9.


Sure Kinect can be turned off but it won't stop it from doing what it's supposed to when it's turned on or when it's to be used for games.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby chicagoRAW on Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:26 am

When games start costing $30 on Xbone then they'll have my attention. But if they try to follow the "steam model" and brand new games are still $60 then just get out.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Sauru on Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:41 am

game companies have talked about pirates being the reason we pay so much for games yet i am positive that if a game company came out and never had a single game pirated they would still charge the 50-60 that everyone else does. the fact that game companies do not even sell full versions of games anymore and instead give you 90% of the game so they can microsell you the last 10% is also pretty annoying
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Jackal on Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:18 am

They can coat it however the fuck they want, shit product is shit.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby JaoSming on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:29 am

A company spokesperson confirmed to Kotaku that Microsoft's own first-party Xbox One games will cost $59,99, the same price top Xbox 360 games have.


http://kotaku.com/microsoft-to-sell-nex ... -513489951
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby volsey on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:45 am

First off, let me be clear I haven't really kept up with the new next gen console debates. I glanced at specs, briefly watched the xbox demonstration and saw all the hate on tv tv tv focus. (Which I don't understand, we all know it's going to play games, and really have a decent idea of how good the games are going to look, so they focused on areas which set their console apart from competitors (and are really innovative).)

Anyways somebody want to explain to me why the internets already all Xbone<<<<<<PS4? Specs look similar, and if this gen has taught us anything, it's that multi-platform games typically won't optimize for one console over the other. Remember how hyped up the Cell processor was in the PS3, and still you rarely ever see games optimized for it (typically 360 games play better). So why is the PS4 already the runaway winner when games are the focus?

Honestly I don't mind paying $60 for a new game. I think when compared with other forms of media, it's actually really fair. Not to mention as always you can always to get it cheaper. So if this new DRM strategy puts more monies into the dev's pockets, which allows for better quality games/more dev studios/less horrible news about studios closing/etc. I have no problem. It's 2013, and if you're willing to spend >$400 for a gaming console, and don't have internet, figure out your damn priorities. Useless non-contributing zeros complaining about privacy and shit are just laughable.

Yea anyways I'd appreciate it if someone could fill me in.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Jackal on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:04 am

Specs and the price of games aren't what are making me choose Playstation over MS, it's their whole approach.

I can't play a single player game if I haven't signed on to Live at least once in 24 hours? Why? What if my internet is being worked on for a couple of days, a week maybe because the internet company is putting in fiber glass in around our community, basically I can't use the thing then? I'm already bored for not having internet and then on top of that MS dictates whether I can or can't play my 499 Euro console?

I can't lend a game to a friend (if I had any) if he/she hasn't been my online friend for 30 days? Why? Why is Microsoft allowed to decide who I want to lend my game to?

Lastly, why the heck does Kinect wanna watch everything I do? Not that I mind or anything, it's sort of a turn on knowing someone, somewhere is watching me jerk off to Shadowgrins panties, hence the live web feed I keep on during 8 am till 8 pm but even there I have a choice.

Also it's more expensive. It's cool that you don't get it & are all for developers getting their money but I want my money's worth too. If I don't want to be on the god damn internet and want to play a game I should be allowed to. I'm paying more than enough to be allowed to do at least that much.

Those cheeky bastards: if you want to play a game offline we suggest you get the xbox360. Fuck you, I'll get a Sony PS4.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby NovU on Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:07 am

Andrew wrote:Certainly candid and a very interesting read. Perhaps some elements were explained poorly, but some of those points are still offputting, as are some of the statements that are somewhat arrogant/playing the victim.

Ditto.

He's talking about a big picture how the world can be a better place if and when everything went right for Microsoft. Somewhat sounds like a control freak trying to change/takeover the world. Fuck Gamestop they're evil, Sony sucks, and we wanna be Steam and are better than Steam! We wanna be in everyone's living room! More he explains, more I can feel their greed.

Even if their plan was really for 'consumers/developers'(lol), they're doing it at the cost of convenience. I see reasons to skip out on this next gen from MS.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby Andrew on Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:14 am

As we discussed on the podcast, it's too big a jump without easing the consumer into the new approach. It's not as though Sony isn't prepared for a bigger shift to digital content, cloud content and whatnot, but they've had the foresight not to immediately scrap the existing model completely and alienate customers in the process. They can still move forward without demanding that the customer immediately change their approach and like it.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby shadowgrin on Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:14 pm

volsey wrote:Anyways somebody want to explain to me why the internets already all Xbone<<<<<<PS4? Specs look similar, and if this gen has taught us anything, it's that multi-platform games typically won't optimize for one console over the other. Remember how hyped up the Cell processor was in the PS3, and still you rarely ever see games optimized for it (typically 360 games play better). So why is the PS4 already the runaway winner when games are the focus?

Yea anyways I'd appreciate it if someone could fill me in.

Read up to page 3 of the thread...
viewtopic.php?p=1629037#p1629037

tl;dr PS3 had the better hardware but programming for it was a pain in the ass that's why 360 games were mostly better.
That's not the case with PS4, supposedly. PS4 now went with the industry standard so programming for it is easier now and considering it has the better hardware than the XBOne, developers could do more with the PS4 in terms of programming games.


if you're willing to spend >$400 for a gaming console, and don't have internet, figure out your damn priorities.

The issue isn't mainly about the presence of an internet connection or lack of it, it's Microsoft trying to be a nanny and feeling the need to check on you once every 24 hours using the internet. Give me good reason why should they?
It's not like for diagnostic maintenance of your unit since if the XBOne is broken then the online diagnostics wouldn't even work and the owner would have known something is wrong even then and do something to have it fixed, you don't need an online system for that.
It's not like people's internet connections don't fuck up now.
Or ISP's don't fuck up now that they provide you with perfectly uninterruptible internet connection.
Or regular maintenance of your connection aren't done/needed by ISP's now.
Or people who have the income to buy a $400 gaming console don't bother going away for vacations.
Or people don't turn off or unplug the unnecessary appliances/electronics when they go to sleep or leave the house.
Or people don't play single player games anymore for days that don't require being online. I heard that Skyrim game flopped.


Useless non-contributing zeros complaining about privacy and shit are just laughable

Those useless non-contributing zeros that are complaining can be considered as potential customers and source of income for companies.
Even if those non-contributing zeros are ignored and never given attention, why should companies take a peek on their paying customers privacy anyway? There's a good reason for it?
Last edited by shadowgrin on Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby NovU on Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:34 pm

I wonder how many people will return Xbone on technicality issues, like simply being unable to connect to the internet. Perhaps, never the better chance at getting great deal on refurbished units.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby benji on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:26 pm

Leftos wrote:The connection to Steam is interesting, IFF Xbox One games end up being lower than $60 after all. If they don't, then the whole strategy is moot.

If the game isn't Modern Warfare, and it's two years old, what do you expect to pay for it on Steam? Or Amazon? Or GMG? Or Gamersgate?

How much are these same games and older on Games On Demand on Xbox Live? How much are the XBLA titles vs. how much you can get them on Steam?

Is Microsoft going to let others sell digital keys and undercut them while they pay all the bandwidth like Valve does?

volsey wrote:Anyways somebody want to explain to me why the internets already all Xbone<<<<<<PS4? Specs look similar

They aren't. 7GB GDDR5 > 5GB DDR3. PS4's GPU 50+% faster. Same CPU most likely though.
if this gen has taught us anything, it's that multi-platform games typically won't optimize for one console over the other.

Just don't ask anyone who bought Skyrm on PS3.
Remember how hyped up the Cell processor was in the PS3, and still you rarely ever see games optimized for it (typically 360 games play better).

That's because the 360 was the more powerful console if you started there first. Better GPU, easier to use CPU, unified RAM. That's why it took Sony ramping up tool and library support massively along with most developers using PS3 as lead platform to catch up and provide something near parity.
Useless non-contributing zeros complaining about privacy and shit are just laughable.

This is why we can't have nice things.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby volsey on Sun Jun 16, 2013 4:28 am

Hey most games I play these days are single player, I get it. I just have a hard time understanding why it's such a big deal that they check for a connection once a day if it prevents piracy, increases profit for devs, and allows for innovative server-sharing-load-type-cloud-computing (which I may not have understood correctly).

Yea if your internet is temporarily down, that sucks. My internet is down about as often as my power is out, I just have a hard time believing that is the key issue (probably being ignorant here I'll admit) for most potential buyers.

Not that I know a whole lot about coding for architecture, but from the little I've read everyone says they're both pretty close, but the edge goes to the PS4. Regardless, the minor difference in performance I would think would be negated for preference of exclusive games.

In the end both consoles will have very similar looking multiplatform games, and since both seem to have easier architecture to program for than say the PS3's Cell, instances like Skyrim (which I realize happened far too often, especially early in the PS3's lifecycle) will happen less and less often.

Again I hold no cards for either side honestly because I'll probably just stick to my PC, but I just don't understand the hate for Microsoft, first with Windows 8 (which I admit has it's problems, but I wouldn't trade for Windows 7) and now this. I'm trying to rationalize things, a lot of the things they're doing make complete sense to me. They seem innovative, they're taking risks, while producing/improving quality products, and still I just read negatives. Windows 8 is considered a huge failure (if I have to read one more start menu bullshit article I'll burn the internets), Windows Phone hasn't caught on, and now this. I'm seriously starting to love Microsoft while everyone seems to be running in the opposite direction.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby JaoSming on Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:44 am

volsey wrote: I just have a hard time understanding why it's such a big deal that they check for a connection once a day if it prevents piracy, increases profit for devs, and allows for innovative server-sharing-load-type-cloud-computing

What this 24 hour check does is assume every user has either pirated, or worse, sold/gave their game to one of their 30 day friends on XBL or Gamestop. It is completely unneeded. If you want to have a game that requires cloud stuff, then the individual game can be an online only game. There is no need to lock down the platform and claim it is for the benefit of technically unrelated features. If you don't want gamers to trade in their discs and want to promote digital day one, then make the game digital only, don't half-ass it with the discs.

There is no way to "win" a games argument, like, ever for a console. You can look at exclusives, but unless there is an avoidance like EA with the Wii U then I have nothing to say about it.

volsey wrote:They seem innovative, they're taking risks, while producing/improving quality products, and still I just read negatives

the only risk I see them taking are the risks associated with pissing off their consumers by removing ownership rights and usage freedom they've had since video games were video games. Again, having benefits of online connectivity and cloud stuff is fantastic. Forcing players to always be online, even if they dont need to use those benefits, its just unneeded.



A lot of it relies on principle. There is no denying that.
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby [Q] on Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:35 am

JaoSming wrote: If you want to have a game that requires cloud stuff, then the individual game can be an online only game...If you don't want gamers to trade in their discs and want to promote digital day one, then make the game digital only, don't half-ass it with the discs.

that's the problem. i dont know the statistics, but i would imagine at least 75-80% of games sales are still in local brick-and mortar stores. it would have been smart to make games all online only, but i think that ms thought it was too much of a risk for sales. i could see this being a possibility in the next-next gen consoles though
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Re: Candid post by Xbox One engineer

Postby JaoSming on Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:02 am

Q, I edited your quote to add in another sentence, the context was needed.
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