Jordan or Chamberlin

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

In other words you have nothing.

Yes. I am lying in front of you, hopeless, argument-less and utterly defeated.

Furthermore, my name should not be even spoken in the same breath as yours, great one. Please excuse my flag-pole comments, most worthy one, I was merely testing your greatness.

[Matthew]

[Joe']

Why would the NBA stop creating some dominant players, but create others?
It's simple.
The Fans.
Fans like guards much more than big men.
This is why they made rules to stop Shaq.
This is why they made rules to stop Wilt.
This is why they didn't make rules to stop Jordan.

Man, they made them, but Jordan was able to broke them, this is why he's THE GREATEST PLAYER OF ALL TIMES, and this is why the fans love him. Wilt is still a GREAT player, but he didn't jump from da FT line, he didn't FLY, he didn't got as buzzer beaters as MJ, he didn't lead a team that never won an NBA title to six of them and he never lead his team to a 72-10 record, that is the best in Nba history...This are only some of what Michael Jordan did to the game...
You can find his full biography here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan

[cyanide]

DWeaver: "Hey, mother, someone here says I hate you"
Mom: "Who?"
DWeaver: "An Australian in an Internet forum"
Mom: "And how should he know?"
DWeaver: "Well, he says I hate Americans, so , with you being American and all..."
Mom: "What, he called you a racist?"
DWeaver: "Uhhh... yeah..."
Mom: "Let it be, son, let it be..."
DWeaver: "Okay mom. How's that mushroom soup coming?"

lol, you bastard. You had to add that

[Sauru]

You think Wilt would be able to dominate against Duncan, Shaq, Amare, Yao, Ben Wallace? Remember, Wilt had his problems against the likes of Russel (6'9), Willis Reed (6'10). When matched up against Kareem, he was virtually helpless. Expect the same against Shaq, Duncan and even a motivated KG and Jermaine O'neal.

i just want to point out, that any center, today or yesteryear, would have trouble against russel. the guy was one of the smartest men to ever step onto a basketball court. the guy also never quit. do you really believe a lazy bastard like oneal would dominate russell?

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

lol, you bastard. You had to add that

hey, a man my age with a wife of teh same age can only dream of getting proper food to the table..

[cyanide]

If you dream of mushroom soup instead of steak and donairs, I think you and your wife better lay off the canned beans and hire a cook

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

If you dream of mushroom soup instead of steak and donairs

I'm a man of simple tastes. Edible food, good sex, and good buddies. And soft toilet paper. the rest is surplus.

[Jeffx]

i just want to point out, that any center, today or yesteryear, would have trouble against russel. the guy was one of the smartest men to ever step onto a basketball court. the guy also never quit. do you really believe a lazy bastard like oneal would dominate russell?

Right on. Russell knew what his opponent was going to do before he even did it. IMO, he was THE smartest man to step on a basketball court(and I'm a Celtic hater).

[j.23]

i have talked about this before also. i feel that players can grow too tall for the nba. yao is too tall. i always believed that 7'1" or 7'2" was the max height you want a player.

i agree definitely. try lowering your basketball hoop if you have one at home to like 9 feet or 8 and a half feet or something like that. that's pretty much how yao plays.. its harder ifyou have to hit jumpshots, etc.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

try lowering your basketball hoop if you have one at home to like 9 feet or 8 and a half feet or something like that. that's pretty much how yao plays.. its harder ifyou have to hit jumpshots, etc.

Yao didn't groe to be 7' 6" from 5' 6" in a day. He learned how to use his height gradually, as it increased. Although it has been documented that extremely tall people have coordination problems.

[Sauru]

thats what i meant by it. people of that height have much slower reaction times also which is why they cant block 100 shots a game like people think they should be able to.

[fgrep15]

Why would the NBA stop creating some dominant players, but create others?
It's simple.
The Fans.
Fans like guards much more than big men.
This is why they made rules to stop Shaq.
This is why they made rules to stop Wilt.
This is why they didn't make rules to stop Jordan.
Plus the NBA was in a different situation back then. The NBA was struggling when Jordan came into the league, so that's why they put rules to make Jordan better. Jordan was a marketing machine, but Wilt Chamberlain wasn't. In fact it was the opposite for Wilt. If I remember correctly, Wilt Chamberlain's comments were often critical of the league, which is why they wouldn't want him dominant. The dominant player represents the league. However, Jordan was a perfect player to model the league after.

I still think Jordan is better, but the argument that they made rules to stop Wilt but also made rules to make Jordan better IS valid.

I hear what you're saying, but what rules could've been made to stop guards? It's easier for perimeter players now because they started overenforcing the handchecking rules, but when Jordan was playing, handchecking was not a foul.

What are they going to do, extend the three point line? Jordan wasn't a three point shooter unless it was needed.

Make players only be allowed 4 dribbles ? That would also affect post players, and it would be very stupid

Their's not much they could do to diminish his effectiveness.

Too many people look at Wilt's stats with gawking eyes, and really don't realize how different the game was. In Wilt's first few years when his rebounding was at his highest, 1 team shot over 42% [42.1% by the Knicks], and the team that averaged the least shots was taking 92.4 shots a game. The team averaging the most shots this season in the NBA took 85.8 shots, and shot 43%. The team with the most attempts this year was still taking 6.6 shots less.

Now you see where the rebounding difference comes from. On the other side though, people shouldn't underatte Wilt's abilities either. Playing in this era, he would still be a very dominant player, and in the HOF. Many people don't understand how athletic he is, but he set records in shot-pu and 110m hurdles, and he won 3 straight big 8 high jump titles. He also lifted weights with Arnold and got his bench up to 500 lbs. After retiring, he was asked to box professionaly, he ran marathons, and I can't remember, but he did some other things. He was a little inferior to Shaq in strength, but had the wingspan of a KG, speed, quickness and jumping ability of someone like Amare, and the very good skills.

Wilt had all the ability and physical skills, but what he didn't have was the mental edge, and the will to be as good as possible that the rest of the guys; Jordan, Bird, Russell, Magic etc had.

Wilt playing today would average something like this:

29-35 PPG
13-16 RPG
4 APG
4-6 BPG
50% FG
41-44 MPG

Some of the differences in the numbers:
1) His teammates will not all be shooting under 40%, so he'll get less shots as he'll have more capable scorers and shot makes on his team.

2) He won't play as many minutes, though he is capable of doing it, coaches won't risk injury by playing him too much, and also he won't remain in games during blowouts. Their will be no 48.5 MPG season.

3) Higher FG%, and less shots will result in less rebounds for him

4) More athletic players, better finishers, and less shots being attempted would decrease his BPG

I mean no matter how little team sucess he has, those numbers are better than anyone's in the league right now. His FG% though was one of the dissapointing things about him, he was terrible from the line in addition to not having a "great" FG%, but he was never a vastly efficient scorer till he became a Laker and wasn't scoring much. Shaq is a more efficient scorer than him, and so was Jordan.

[air gordon]

i just want to point out, that any center, today or yesteryear, would have trouble against russel. the guy was one of the smartest men to ever step onto a basketball court. the guy also never quit. do you really believe a lazy bastard like oneal would dominate russell?

is this really true? would russell truly shut down anyone that came across his path?
is russell that much of a better defender then any great defensive player?

today, players/coaches have scouting reports, game tapes, etc to prepare for great scorers. yet opposing players still score relatively around their average

i've seen supposedly the game's current best defensive player, ben wallace, get scored on consistently by out of all people al harrington

or dennis rodman still allow karl malone to get close to his averages.

bryant dropping 30 on bowen

and so forth.

sorry, i'm not convinced

[Fenix]

Just some info I found surfing on the net. I hope someone will found this interesting .

"The Stilt is most effective simply because of his physical qualities. He stands 7-feet in his sweat socks*. Over this frame are spread 225 sinewy pounds. He is almost as agile as a 5-11 playmaker. He can jump 24 inches straight up."

The article was published on December 21st, 1955. Wilt was 19 back then. For comparison - Johan Petro (7'), who is also considered to be a good athlete, has the same vertical at the age of 19**. But then again, Petro has worked with weights, probably did plyometrics and certainly has a lot more practices than Wilt had back then and is therefor in better shape.

"Playing every minute of the game, Chamberlain hit on 16-of-35 shots from the field for a percentage of .460 and added 10-of-13 free-throw attempts. He scored four of his goals on two-handed dunks, lifting his elbows as high as the rim. He sideboarded home three more when teammates appeared to fire short or wide. The rest he leveled from ranges of point blank to 15 feet. And he found time to harvest 29 rebounds and block four enemy tries almost before they could clear the fingers of the shooters."

From the same article. Author describes Wilt's showing on his first game for the Kansas, when he played against his varsity team. It it is clear that even at the age of 19 his offensive game was rather developed and that he used his skill for scoring all those points, not only his psychical stature.

http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/wilt/article3.html - Check the links on the left of the site. Old articles about Wilt.

What I found particulary interesting are the stats. Look at his site at the BasketballReference ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html). He set a FG% in his last season with .727 percentage. That just proves how dominant he still was on the offensive end at the age of 36.

* - Some say that he later grew up to 7'1 1/16''.

** - This info could be wrong, though. If my memory doesn't lie, it was written over at DraftDaily that Johan Petro's vertical is around 24 inches. I assume this is his number without taking a step before jumping.

[Sauru]

But with Jordan and Chamberlin, MJ helped his team by scoring points. Wilt didn't and often disappeared in the most critical of moments.

Once again, if MJ was brutalized in the paint, elbowed, pushed, and having rules changed AGAINST him rather than FAVORING him, then I sincerely doubt MJ's numbers in the latter stage of his carreer would be anything like near 30ppg and such, not to mention the rings he wouldn't be able to win.

obviously you never watched jordan play. this guy was constantly punished and you sit here and act like he was babied? fuck man the piston had thier own set of rules on how to hurt jordan and stop him from doing his thing. you ever see what the knicks did to this guy? jordan was always getting beat on and he still posted over 30 a game. the guy was hands down the best. what ever you threw at him he over came it. 6 trips to the finals, 6 wins, 6 mvps. wtf else do you want

[Sauru]

i just want to point out, that any center, today or yesteryear, would have trouble against russel. the guy was one of the smartest men to ever step onto a basketball court. the guy also never quit. do you really believe a lazy bastard like oneal would dominate russell?

is this really true? would russell truly shut down anyone that came across his path?
is russell that much of a better defender then any great defensive player?

today, players/coaches have scouting reports, game tapes, etc to prepare for great scorers. yet opposing players still score relatively around their average

i've seen supposedly the game's current best defensive player, ben wallace, get scored on consistently by out of all people al harrington

or dennis rodman still allow karl malone to get close to his averages.

bryant dropping 30 on bowen

and so forth.

sorry, i'm not convinced

ok think about this. why was rodman such a good rebounder? he was smarter than anyone else out there and he would flat out out hustle them for it. he did this in the time of all the tapes and stuff you have mentioned. now take that heart, that passion, that knowledge and put it into the greatest winner of all time. take that and put it into a 6-10 frame.

now i wont sit here and say he would hold shaq to 2 ppg. that would just be stupid. but to say that russell would struggle vs todays centers is just as dumb, infact its more so. i am 100% positive that he would hold every center in the game today under thier average.

[Kemp]

Russell can stop any today center he play against except Shaq because Russell does not has the raw power like Shaq do. Russell size is not strong enough to hold Shaq 1 on 1. So the best dominate center still belongs to Shaq. I put Russell 2nd.

[fgrep15]

What I found particulary interesting are the stats. Look at his site at the BasketballReference ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... bwi01.html). He set a FG% in his last season with .727 percentage. That just proves how dominant he still was on the offensive end at the age of 36.

He was on a stacked Laker team where he was not the main option though, and with him already being dominant when he was a 30+ PPG scorer, when he becomes a guy that only scores when needed, and when he's open, I wouldn't be too surprised at the FG%.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

what ever you threw at him he over came it. 6 trips to the finals, 6 wins, 6 mvps. wtf else do you want

Try coping with things like that for 82 games a season and triple team on almost EVERY play and we would see how MJ would maintain his numbers... Never seen Jordan play, eh? That's a good one...

[air gordon]

ok think about this. why was rodman such a good rebounder? he was smarter than anyone else out there and he would flat out out hustle them for it. he did this in the time of all the tapes and stuff you have mentioned. now take that heart, that passion, that knowledge and put it into the greatest winner of all time. take that and put it into a 6-10 frame.

now i wont sit here and say he would hold shaq to 2 ppg. that would just be stupid. but to say that russell would struggle vs todays centers is just as dumb, infact its more so. i am 100% positive that he would hold every center in the game today under thier average.

interesting point. rodman was great at that one facet of the game. was he really smarter? debateable. i think just more willing and was afforded the opportunity to poor his heart & hustle out soley on rebouding and defense.

despite russell's pedigree, smarts, and all the good stuff, i don't think a 6'10 220lb russell can deny post position to a 7ft 350lb shaq and then prevent him from making a 5ft jump hook on a consistent basis

if russell was able to benefit from the facilities, personnal trainers, breathroughs in sports medicine, etc, i would agree with you that russell would be able to contain every center in this league.

[beau_boy04]

Had Michael Jordan played in the 60's he would have averaged 50 ppg as well.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Had Michael Jordan played in the 60's he would have averaged 50 ppg as well.

How so?

[Sauru]

Had Michael Jordan played in the 60's he would have averaged 50 ppg as well.

had jordan played in the 60's he would have been called for traveling everytime he touched the ball. his entire game would have had to of changed. infact had he played in the 60's he never would have grown up watching dr j and the likes. so yeah, he never woulda scored that much.

[Strike Freedom]

there were no 3 points in 60's.... so if MJ wants to score 50...
he has to get the ball everytime the team offenses..
But maybe he can score more, cuz there wasn't too many great defenders at that time.