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Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:47 pm

illini wrote:Did you watch those games against the Pistons my friend? on the offensive side of the ball there was NOTHING but lebron. Sure defense had a little team aspect, but Lebron did everything else. Note the two little qualifying words "pretty much": yes i understand there was 4 other players on the floor, but i believe with any semi-decent 4 NBA players (which Big Z and Hughes, certainly and the other 2 are passable) Lebron would still do what he does. Just wait and see. I also wonder if you'd be as mad if i had said the same thing about kobe...


That's an exception. It's very rare to see that, and it's the great players that can carry a team by himself. I'm a big believer that teams win games, but I do appreciate the exceptions that a great player can carry a team.

Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:49 pm

people forget that Cleveland was ONE OF THE BEST DEFENSIVE TEAMS LAST SEASON, therefore no one carried the team singlehandedly. Just like the 01 Sixers, sure the offense was focused around 1 player, but if those teams didn't play the defense they did they would struggle to make the playoffs.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:37 am

In a very particular order:

Wade
Duncan
Yao
Lebron
Dirk
Bryant
Garnett
Nash
Amare
Gasol

Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:44 am

Haha, silly asians.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:37 am

KB8 6th is a travesty.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:54 am

kevC wrote:In a very particular order:

Wade
Duncan
Yao
Lebron
Dirk
Bryant
Garnett
Nash
Amare
Gasol


Homertastic. :shock:

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:05 am

Matt wrote:KB8 6th is a travesty.



wade number 1 is pretty damn bad too. and why does gasol even get his name mentioned in this thread

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:14 am

I'm in shock over some of these lists. Look on the first page, Jesus.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:16 am

Why does Wade not deserve number one? Why should Gasol not be mentioned? Why is Kobe sixth a travesty? What makes the list more "homertastic" than any of the ones on the first page?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:03 am

^

The fact that Yao Ming is listed above LeBron, Kobe and Garnett, maybe?

Then again, I didn't really look at any lists on the first page.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:12 am

Why can Yao Ming not be listed above those players?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:21 am

In fear of another complicated statistic filled, anti-commonsense, un-winnable debate, I decline to comment.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:27 am

Any list that has Pau Gasol as a top 10 player loses all credibility. That is far more ridiculous then Yao being 3rd.

Better big men then Pau Gasol:
Kevin Garnett
Yao Ming
Carlos Boozer
Tim Duncan
Jermaine O'Neal
Chris Bosh
Dirk Nowitzki
Amare Stoudemire

Pau is barely a top 10 big man, much less top 10 player in the league.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:33 am

Damn having to have actual arguments to back up declarative statments. Why do those heartless assholes always want to know why, can't they just accept my declarations as fact and be done with it? I mean, I said it is, why do they want some sort of support for what I say. Don't they know I just know that what I know is right and known because I am in the know?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:42 am

I just can't be bothered debating back and forth as to why Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant and LeBron James are better players than Yao Ming because I know it'll drag on forever and end up like the Hinrich/Duhon debate except it will make even less sense. Do you think Yao Ming is a better player than those three?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:47 am

benji wrote:Why does Wade not deserve number one? Why should Gasol not be mentioned? Why is Kobe sixth a travesty? What makes the list more "homertastic" than any of the ones on the first page?


That's the reason why I'm not posting my top ten, because it's way too subjective as you hint. A point guard and a center puts up different stats, but they also play different roles on a team. Is a point guard better than a center, or vice versa? Do stats dictate who should be better than the other, and are points more important than rebounds? What about defensive intangibles that Bowen and Artest bring, are they important? Are experience, age, attitude, awards and a championship ring factors? Does one injury change how good a player is? Is a player good only because of the system or coach he plays in? It goes on and on, and that's why we'll see Gasol listed, or Kobe in sixth.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:52 am

If you cannot be bothered discussing things, why even bother to post on a forum? Wouldn't it be more prudent to go start a blog or become a columnist if you just want to make declarative statements without support?

Is it really such a burden for people to explain why Wade should not be first? Why Yao Ming cannot be ranked higher than Kobe or Garnett? Why this smattering of names is better than this smattering of names? Why Pau Gasol in a top ten, or Yao above certain players is more deserving of scorn than, for example, placing Joe Johnson ninth is?

You may find actual arguments behind points to be boring. But it is far more interesting and engaging than: "Yao is the third best player." "Nuh huh, Kobe is." "Nuh huh, Shaq is." "You are both wrong, the proper ranking of players is thus."

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:56 am

I just don't think it's worth debating who is better of:

Yao Ming vs. Kobe Bryant
Yao Ming vs. Kevin Garnett
Yao Ming vs. LeBron James

When it's so damn obvious. Why go back and forth on something we probably bost agree on? I don't see the point.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:03 am

It is not obvious though. You believe those three players to be better than Yao Ming, so to you, it is "obvious" they are. Kevc and others in this thread clearly do not agree with your personal ranking of the players, so you should make the case for why your ranking is the superior one. That is what drives discussion, and discussion forums.

If you find it obvious and not worth your time, why make a snarky comment then? Why make irrelevant declarations, if you have no intention of ever supporting them? We already have more than enough of that.

Irregardless of my own belief on the matter:
Yao Ming is the best player in the league. It is not worth debating, it is damn obvious.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:06 am

Shannon wrote:I just don't think it's worth debating who is better of:

Yao Ming vs. Kobe Bryant


To play devil's advocate, it's kind of like discussing who's better between Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain. Wilt scored 100 points in a game, but Jordan's known for his scoring. Wilt pulled down more boards and averaged more assists in a season than Jordan ever did, but yet, Jordan is the better player because he won more championship rings, is faster, explosive, shorter than Wilt and despite them having two different defensive roles on the team...

Personally, I think Kobe's more experienced and has a better outside game, while Yao is stronger and has a better inside game. In that perspective, neither is better than the other. I hope you get what I mean ;)

Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:47 am

benji wrote:It is not obvious though. You believe those three players to be better than Yao Ming, so to you, it is "obvious" they are. Kevc and others in this thread clearly do not agree with your personal ranking of the players, so you should make the case for why your ranking is the superior one. That is what drives discussion, and discussion forums.

If you find it obvious and not worth your time, why make a snarky comment then? Why make irrelevant declarations, if you have no intention of ever supporting them? We already have more than enough of that.

Irregardless of my own belief on the matter:
Yao Ming is the best player in the league. It is not worth debating, it is damn obvious.


I think it's painfully obvious, and most that watch the NBA would agree. Anyone with knowledge of the NBA wouldn't argue that Yao Ming is a better player than LeBron, Kevin or Kobe.

I don't see the point in arguing something we both agree on (let's be serious... I know that you think Garnett/Kobe/LeBron are all better players than Yao), but since you insist...

Yao Ming: 25.0 PPG | 9.4 RPG | 2.0 APG | 0.4 SPG | 2.0 BPG | 3.5 TPG | 33.8 MPG

Kobe Bryant: 31.6 PPG | 5.7 RPG | 5.4 APG | 1.4 SPG | 0.5 BPG | 3.3 TPG | 40.8 MPG

Kevin Garnett: 22.4 PPG | 12.8 RPG | 4.1 APG | 1.2 SPG | 1.7 BPG | 2.7 TPG | 39.4 MPG

LeBron James: 27.3 PPG | 6.7 RPG | 6.0 APG | 1.6 SPG | 0.7 BPG | 3.2 TPG | 40.9 MPG

Statistically, the only thing's Yao beats Kobe out in is rebounding and shot blocking, which should be expected because he plays downlow and that is usually a centers role on a team. In comparison to Kevin Garnett, Yao scores more and has a slight edge in shotblocking, while losing out in all other catagories. Going head to head with LeBron James, Yao out-rebounds and out-shotblocks LeBron, which once again is expected considering LeBron plays on the perimeter and Yao plays downlow.

Yao shoots a higher percentage thanall of these guys, but when 2 of them are gaurds that is to be expected. The fact he scores more effeciently than Kevin Garnett doesn't suprise me much, considering Yao is a very good post scorer who rarely leaves the block and has much more help around the perimeter to take defensive pressure off him.

Kobe Bryant is the best offensive player in the game today, so there's no contest here offensively. One could argue that Yao is a better scorer than LeBron James, because he is more effecient and would score roughly the same amount if he played as many minutes as LeBron, so I'll leave them around equal. Yao was also better than Garnett offensively last season so I'll give him that, despite his advantages.

Defensively, Yao can only compare to LeBron James. Yao is a better defender than LeBron, but not so much better that he can be in the same conversation as Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett - two of the best defenders by their respective positions over the past decade. Yao is simply not on the level defensively of 7 time All Defence selection Kobe Bryant and 8 time All Defence selection Kevin Garnett.

I checked up on 82games.com to see if the stats reflected this, but there wasn't much evidence that these stats can have too much weight put on them. I saw that some guys who are well known for being good defenders didn't rate so well, and guys who are criticized for their defence are being rated better than what you'd expect. If I was reading it right, here are the numbers:

Tim Duncan: Allowed 46.3%FG | -2.8% when OFF court

Eddie Jones: Allowed 52.8%FG | -0.1% when OFF court

Kevin Garnett: Allowed 49.4%FG | -1.9% when OFF court


Tyson Chandler: Allowed 50.4%FG | -1.2% when OFF court

LeBron James: Allowed 48.0%FG | -0.4% when OFF court

Jason Williams: Allowed 48.1%FG | -0.8% when OFF court

Yao Ming: Allowed 46.3FG% | -2.7 when OFF court

Ben Wallace: Allowed 48.5%FG | +3.7% when OFF court

Kobe Bryant: Allowed 49.7%FG | -1.4% when OFF court

Rafer Alston: Allowed 46.2%FG | -1.6% when OFF court

As I said, I don't put too much weight into these numbers and would rather go by what I have seen and the amount of awards these guys have racked up. According to these statistics, Ben Wallace is a terrible defender - worse than Jason Williams, LeBron James and Rafer Alston. Tyson Chandler and Eddie Jones also come out as terrible defenders.

Rafer Alston shows as roughly the same defensive presence of Tim Duncan, as does Yao himself. Garnett, Kobe and LeBron all have pretty bad looking scores in comparison, and LeBron actually comes out as the best defender of the bunch - which we know just isn't true.

The defensive composite scores aren't all that impressive either - LeBron rates as an excellent defender, while defensive powerhouses such as Ben Wallace and Tyson chandler rank far below. Kobe ranks as just an average defender while Yao rates as an excellent defender, making the top 10, just a spot below Kevin Garnett.

Yao isn't a bad defender, but I can't put everything into these statistics. He is simply not the defensive presence of Kevin Garnett or Kobe Bryant.

Moving on to the next thing, playmaking ability. LeBron James, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett are all elite in this regard. They all have fantastic court vision and passing ability, and have a knack for finishing the play. Yao Ming is a very good passer and has some great court vision for a center, but he doesn't have the playmaking ability of these three. All these guys rack up considerably more assists each game and only Kevin Garnett wasn't above Yao's level in terms of scoring the ball last season. Yao is a very good passer, but he doesn't have the ability to make plays like these guys.

That leads me to the next thing - versatility. Kobe Bryant can play the point gaurd position (we often see him bring it up the court and initiate the offence), the shooting gaurd position and would have no problem playing the small forward if need be. LeBron James can and has played those three spots also. Kevin Garnett can play basically all five positions, but mainly plays the small forward, the center or the power forward spots.

Garnett is 7 foot with gaurd like shooting, passing, speed and ballhandling ability. That's the reason why he is such an incredible matchup problem. There are very few in this league that can gaurd Kevin Garnett. Kobe Bryant has as good perimeter skills as any player in NBA history - 3 point range, mid range, ballhandling, athleticism, speed, passing, etc. You name it, he has it. However, he is also very strong and will often post up on the baseline and spin into the lane or fadeaway. His versatility allows him to play inside and out. Finally, we have LeBron James. LeBron is a freak of nature physically - he's incredibly strong, athletic and fast, adn can use this to his advantage. He has much of the same skills as Kobe, albeit less of a jumpshot (which is rsaid to be much improved this offseason). He can also use his massive body to post up smaller players, and has started to use that more often and effectively in reason times.

Yao on the other hand is strictly a center, and cannot play on the perimeter. He can't bring the ball up the floor, nor can he shoot from the outside. He can't take his man out to the perimeter and blow by him. He simply isn't versatile. Versatility is a very important thing in basketball, as it creates matchup problems which equal points. If you're as offensively versatile as these guys, chances are you are a big time scorer.

The same thing goes for defensively. I don't think LeBron is a good defender, but Kobe and Garnett are. They can use that versatility they use on offence, on defence. Kobe and Garnett can both gaurd 3 positions.

Moving onto rebounding. Garnett has been the best rebounder in the league for 4 straight seasons, and has been elite for alot longer than that. Yao is no match, and he actually doesn't rebound all that well for a guy his size. I'd expect a 7'5" center as mobile as him to be grabbing more than 9 rebounds a game. Yao outrebounds LeBron and Kobe, but that is too be expected considering Yao is a center. It's a billion times more likely you see a center rebounding more than a shooting gaurd. However, if you look through the rebounding numbers from last season by position, Yao is the 13th rated center, while Kobe is the 3rd best rebounding gaurd and LeBron is the 5th best rebounding small forward.

While they don't rebound as much, they are better rebounders for their respective positions than Yao is for a center.

Quickly touching on turnovers, most of these guys turn the ball over quite a bit. Yao averages 4.9 turnovers per 48, good for 7th worst in the league, while Kobe ranks 26th, LeBron 33rd and Garnett 61st. Obviously Yao commits more mistakes than these guys by a considerable margin, which is rather troublesome for a guy that doesn't handle the ball anywhere near as much as LeBron, Kobe or Garnett.

To summarize, Yao Ming is simply not on the level of these three future hall of famers. Yao is a very good scorer, but is only better than Garnett. When you add in the factors of playmaking, passing, versatility and taking care of the ball into the offensive equation, Yao rates last. Defensively, Yao is behind Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett, but is a better defender than LeBron James. Add in the factors of rebounding and defensive versatility, and Yao ranks even lower compared to Garnett and Bryant.

I do not believe that Yao Ming is on the level of any of these players, and the only thing he really has over a single one of these guys is defensive ability, over LeBron James. You could say rebounding, but the fact that Bryant and LeBron are top 3 and top 5 rebounders respectively by position means alot. Then chuck up the fact that Yao is 13th amongst centers and you can't really use that as an edge, considering they play completely different positions.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:04 am

illini wrote:
LakersRule24 wrote:
illini wrote:1. Lebron-echoing what everyone else said, he pretty much singlehandedly got the cavaliers into the finals, and thats just ridiculous. I used to hate him because i thought he was overhyped, but now, i cant argue

Players don't win games. TEAMS do. You are just buying into the media hype like many people around the world do.


Did you watch those games against the Pistons my friend? on the offensive side of the ball there was NOTHING but lebron. Sure defense had a little team aspect, but Lebron did everything else. Note the two little qualifying words "pretty much": yes i understand there was 4 other players on the floor, but i believe with any semi-decent 4 NBA players (which Big Z and Hughes, certainly and the other 2 are passable) Lebron would still do what he does. Just wait and see. I also wonder if you'd be as mad if i had said the same thing about kobe...

It's as simple as no defense, no win. The main reason the Cavs got past the Pistons is because of TEAM DEFENSE. One player can NEVER carry a team by himself to the Finals. You can't. You have 14 other players on your roster. They did what they did to bring you to that spot. Not vice versa.

It was Lebron's team that got him to the playoffs in the first place. His team's defense is ranked 4TH in the league. In every single game in the series, the Cavaliers held the Pistons to under 90 points. That's thanks to their coach Mike Brown. Their DEFENSE is what got Lebron to the Finals. NOT Lebron. Lebron plays in the PERFECT system that Kobe would thrive in. He doesn't have to play defense. His team covers that side of the floor for him. He can just spend all of his energy on offense and do whatever he likes. The Cavs have one side of the floor covered.

And it depends. If Lebron can bring Mike Brown with him to coach those 4 other semi decent players and he plays in the East, then he wins.

The quotes "Carried the team" and "Singlehandedly won blah blah blah" are all myths repeated by the media. That's impossible. That can never happen.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:05 pm

There, that wasn't hard and far more interesting.

I am unsure how to do this without meeting the fears of our newest admin. I shall try. But I am only going to spend a few minutes on this, no more than fifteen or twenty tops, so it might get away from me.
Statistically, the only thing's Yao beats

Yes, in those statistics. But per game statistics are some of the worst to use to evaluate capabilites of the players. The most important statistic you cited is the last one, minutes per game. Notice a difference? Moving Yao up to KG's minutes leaves him with 29 and 11.

Yao is only slightly more efficient shooting than the others. He shot 51-52% from the floor the last two years, and 59-60% overall. LeBron has been 51-52%, 55-57%. Kobe, 49-50%, 56-58%. KG has been quite up and down the last two, but has a career around 50% (and the same as the average of the last two years) and 55% overall. From the floor, he's basically a wash with the other three, he just shoots 85-86% from the line and heads there more often than the others.

Kobe is probably the best offensive player in the league but I would definately say Yao is in the next tier with Wade and Dirk in terms of combination of being prolific and high efficiency.
If I was reading it right, here are the numbers:

You weren't. The first number is not FG% allowed, but eFG% allowed. By the team, while the player was on the floor.

I would not use them as measuring defensive capability, it is similar to using per game stats, there is a major rival factor involved. In this case, the remainder of the team is a bigger factor than the individual. I will not even talk about the DCS, as it has blatantly obvious faults.

As noted, I have worked on my own defensive investigations. Yao comes up as making the most stops out of opposing teams possessions, logical, as he is the anchor of the Rockets defense. Only Kobe shows up as forcing more turnovers, but nobody forces more misses. (Again, logical, Yao forces not only normal shot misses on his man, but also others who he helps on.) Yao only comes up second on stops per counterpart possession, KG is first on that, although I have already noted misgivings with it. Yao recorded 8.4 stops per game, same as KG, but in over five fewer minutes per game.

Yao has shown defensive improvement in each of the last few years, one can easily say he had the biggest defensive impact in the minutes he played, of the four players being discussed. He is also easily one of the top defensive centers. KG and Kobe have both shown declines in recent years on the defensive end, both showing this decline after 2004, during a time in which the reasoning can be rationalized.
Yao on the other hand is strictly a center

I do not see how this is a valid argument as to which players are better. Shaq was the unmatched best player in the league for five years, and he was strictly a center. Great players do not necessarily need to be able to play multiple positions. Darius Miles can feasibly play all five positions, and at a minimum four. He does not do more to win than former teammates Zach Randolph or Elton Brand. Steve Nash is essentially strictly a point guard, but that has not stopped people from wanting to bury him in MVPs, despite having more teammates like Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw who can play multiple positions.
Moving onto rebounding.

A number of things. First, Garnett is arguably only the second best rebounder over the last four years. Reggie Evans is quite a bit ahead of him and everyone else in grabbing rebounds. Yao's rebounding numbers are deflated by the minutes he got and the pace of the Rockets. He did rank 13th for centers, who played 500+ minutes, in rebounding, but Kobe ranked just 23rd out of all guards in rebounding. I only eyeballed and looked at the first 100 forwards, but LeBron certainly was not in the top ten for small fowards. But KG is clearly the better rebounder of the four and any other four that does not include Chandler, Jeff Foster or Evans.
Quickly touching on turnovers...doesn't handle the ball anywhere near as much

Which is why we should look at turnover rates, and not raw numbers of turnovers. All three players are in the same area, slightly above average in turnover rate for their position. (Yao's turnover rate is slightly higher than Shaq's for example.) None of them are 2003 version McGrady in terms of high possessions, low turnovers. Yao's usage rate was actually comparable to LeBron's, slightly lower than Kobe's, but all three were 20% higher than Garnett.

Based on last season, yes, Yao is just as good as the others. But LeBron and KG both had down regular seasons compared to years prior. Kobe's year was also down from 05-06, but still in line with his second best season.

The case is there against Yao, but it is far from "obvious" as you declared.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:12 pm

Yao has also gotten better every season so it's reasonable to assume he'll be even better this year.

Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:51 pm

I do not see how this is a valid argument as to which players are better. Shaq was the unmatched best player in the league for five years, and he was strictly a center. Great players do not necessarily need to be able to play multiple positions. Darius Miles can feasibly play all five positions, and at a minimum four. He does not do more to win than former teammates Zach Randolph or Elton Brand. Steve Nash is essentially strictly a point guard, but that has not stopped people from wanting to bury him in MVPs, despite having more teammates like Shawn Marion and Boris Diaw who can play multiple positions.


Well if I held 3 players on basically the same level, versatility both offensively and defensively becomes a big factor as a possible edge over the competition. Defensive veratility is great, because if you have a guy like Kevin Garnett you can gaurd the LeBron James's, the Tim Duncan's and the Yao Ming's of the league. This makes Kevin alot more valuable defensively than if he was strictly a center.

Offensively it works the same way. Teams have a nightmare on their hands when trying to gaurd players who are already elite (eg. not Darius Miles), but are also versatile. Kevin Garnett's ability to play at least 3 positions gives him a significant advantage over the defence unless:

A) They have equally great defenders at the spots Kevin will play

B) Kevin's defender is as versatile defensively as Kevin is offensively

It's not something to judge someone on heavily, but it does help determine who's the better player between a group that are all on the same level, along with the other aspects of their games.

A number of things. First, Garnett is arguably only the second best rebounder over the last four years. Reggie Evans is quite a bit ahead of him and everyone else in grabbing rebounds. Yao's rebounding numbers are deflated by the minutes he got and the pace of the Rockets. He did rank 13th for centers, who played 500+ minutes, in rebounding, but Kobe ranked just 23rd out of all guards in rebounding. I only eyeballed and looked at the first 100 forwards, but LeBron certainly was not in the top ten for small fowards. But KG is clearly the better rebounder of the four and any other four that does not include Chandler, Jeff Foster or Evans.


If we are gonna rank Yao amongst centers, then we gotta rank Kobe amongst shooting gaurds rather than just gaurds. That's twice the competition.

Looking at that list, these guys ar not SG's:

Jason Kidd
Quentin Richardson
Dorrell Wright
Adrian Griffin
Ron Artest
Josh Childress
Devean George
Rajon Rondo
Mickael Pietrus
Martell Webster

That leaves Kobe at 13th rather than 23rd in that RbR statistic, with these guys ranked ahead of him:

Bonzi Wells
Carlos Delfino
Thabo Sefolosha
Manu Ginobili*
Mike Dunleavy*
Vince Carter
Tony Allen
Antoine Wright*
Devin Brown*
Andre Iguodala
Jason Richardson
Kirk Snyder

*I personally don't think the stats are a real representation of these player rebounding ability.

If you take a look at where LeBron's ranked (157 I think), almost every single one of the players is a power forward. There's a huge difference in rebounding role and oppurtunity between a small forward on the perimter and a power forward down low. Of the small forwards ahead of him, alot of them were garbage time players, eg. Andre Brown, Ronald Dupree, etc. I wouldn't mind betting he'd rank top 10 amongst SF's, without those very rarely used guys sprinkled throughout the list.

Based on last season, yes, Yao is just as good as the others. But LeBron and KG both had down regular seasons compared to years prior. Kobe's year was also down from 05-06, but still in line with his second best season.

The case is there against Yao, but it is far from "obvious" as you declared.


I think Yao was a cut below these guys last year, not as good, as I pointed out in my previous post. The fact that all these guys had down years compared to the year before while Yao had a career year gave Yao an advantage, but he still came out at/near the bottom statistically. Seeing these guys play definately backs that up in my view.

As for the obvious comment, I do think it's very obvious. I don't think anyone except a Yao fanboy would argue that he is currently better than any of these players. It's common basketball knowledge and I didn't really need to back it up, I just did because you insisted on evidence.
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