, you have to ask yourself how can Denver be putting up those kinds of numbers with Carmelo there, considering you said before that Carmelo would hurt Detroit... so if he would hurt Detroit, how come isnt he hurting Denver. It has to be either the system (run and gun) or the players for the reason they are getting better stats on the offensive end. So which one is it? If you say its the system, then surely you cant stick to your "point" that denver has better offensive players... and if you say its the players, then how can you say Carmelo would hurt a team of "lesser" offensive talent? Doesn't quick make sense what your saying here does it?...
You ignore the fact that it is both the system and the players. Carmelo would hurt the Pistons as I said
because he would take shots from the other players because they are one of the slowest teams in the league, it doesn't hurt Denver because they are the second fastest team in the league and that allows Carmelo to get lots of shots and the other players to get shots as well. Denver's offense is not leading to more mismatched fast breaks like say New Jerseys (who has been the opposite of the Pistons the last two years...I.E. a poor offensive team) it means a less controlled offense in which shots are often taken earlier in the shot clock and sets are not focused on.
But... you said they are rebuilding, so why bring in veterans who will help them win now?
Because of expectations placed on them require them to rebuild on the fly. However, they did not bring in many veterans. They signed Campbell because they were unsure about the EuroThree, now they are sure and Campbell is out of the lineup. They signed Fowkles to add another defensive stopper.
Portland had no idea he would have this kind of breakout season last year (or last off-season)
Yes, they did. Because they had been watching him the last two years. When he was in his rookie year he was playing as well as Dale Davis and then last year when he was the ninth best Power Forward in the league. One spot above Rasheed.
My point is how can you say Portland knew what kind of player they had in Randolph before this season, and they didnt know what they in jermaine
First of all, you ignore they were trying to add the piece to make them a championship team (like you erroneously claim Carmelo would do to Detroit) and decided to ditch their project. The difference is then they were a legit contender, now they are starting over.
Jermaine O'Neal: 15.2ppg 12.9rpg
Zach Randolph: 24.0ppg 12.6rpg
60 Points higher? What exactly do you mean by scoring higher? The point I was using about college was he can score in a half court offense similar to how detroit plays...
First of all, Syracuse did not play the style of offense that Detroit does and there Carmelo was the teams best offensive option and their best overall shooter, he would not be that in Detroit.
.389
.453
Apx. 60 points...I rounded to .390 and .450...
Yes really really well against New Jersey
After his ankle injury.
You think becuase a player gets a high number of points he is a superior offensive player (like saying Denvers offensive players are better to detroits, which is not the case).
No, I don't. I only chose to look at points per 48 for that instance, want the whole numbers of the select players?
Andre Miller - 22.7 points (17.7 attempts, .425 shooting), 2.3 offensive rebounds, 8.9 assists, 4.6 turnovers
Voshon Lenard - 24.5 (21.9, .413), 1.3, 3.4, 2.6
Earl Boykins - 24.0 (21.0, .434), 1.4, 7.8, 2.8
Jon Barry - 15.3 (13.6, .372), 0.9, 5.2, 2.1
Rodney White - 28.0 (24.1, .459), 2.6, 2.8, 4.6
Chauncey Billups - 24.3 (18.7, .389), 0.8, 6.7, 3.5
Richard Hamilton - 24.5 (20.3, .458), 1.4, 4.3, 3.6
Mehmet Okur - 19.8 (15.8, .428), 5.5, 2.2, 3.3
Corliss Williamson - 20.0 (18.1, .434), 2.9, 1.8, 4.3
Again, Detroit's offense: 97.8 (19th)...Denver's offense: 100.9 (9th)
That is not necessarily true. Carmelo is the number one option in denver, so every shot is contested. Plus as you shoot more you are more inclined to take bad shots or shots not in ryhtym (shots as the shot or game clock is about to expire, for example).
But, you ignore that Prince takes almost all of his shots with the shot clock on the verge of expiring. If he did shoot more then his percentage would of course drop, but it is so much higher than Carmelo's even if it would bring him to just about dead even, his defense and passing would make him an overall better player.
But Darko isnt getting minutes becuase he just isnt ready yet, otherwise detroit would play him, right? They have no other reason not to play him, do they?
Mehmet Okur, Zeljko Rebraca, Elden Campbell and Ben Wallace.
If Darko was on the Nuggets he still wouldn't play big minutes, does that mean he sucks, no but Nene is good, so is Marcus Camby and Chris Andersen.
He would've played more minutes because Denver had no expectations put on them and they wouldn't have brought in Elson so Darko would be able to pick up those minutes. We'd probably be hearing (since Carmelo wouldn't play very much in Detroit) "Detroit should've taken Darko."
But when you are stuck behind better seasoned players its hard to get minutes even if you are good. In Redd's case, Cassel, Allen, Big Dog and even Thomas .
Yeah, but aside from his Rookie Year he was a better player than all those guys except maybe Allen (and Cassell is out of position somewhat but he outplayed Payton last year so we can easily substitue
).
Also Billups is not Starbury, other than Oscar, Starbury is the only other player to average 20 and 8dimes.
That's kinda decieving though...The Big O got 25.7 and 9.5 for his career...Marbury is just 20 and 8...I mean Magic had 19.5 and 11.2...that's better IMO...but I know what you're getting at here.
So Ben Bailey's argument that Denver has "better offensive players than Detroit becuase they score more" is also deceptive, becuase of the style of play Denver has in
No, it isn't. Because I accounted for the pace the two teams play at.
imo the reason why they lost to new jersey was their lack of scoring.
Because you're uninformed. Detroit was the 13th best team on the offensive end last season. New Jersey was only 21st.
Will Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey, Chucky Atkins, Williamson or Sura be effective by then?
The last three will be gone from Detroit if all goes according to plan.
my point with that is if Portland knew about the skill Randolph had, why didnt they know about Jermaine O'neal?
Because O'Neal wasn't as developed as Randolph at that point!
I still think Portland wouldve at least been tempted by Prince, and if not, they couldve maybe gotten Kurt Thomas from the knicks for Tayshuan and maybe Chucky Atkins, or even a younger guy like Chris Wilcox
But why? If we follow your logic, they have Sheed why do you need Thomas or Wilcox? And why would you get Atkins when you already have Stoudamire (who is better) and McInnis (who is better and bigger) who also have too big of contracts?
And what is Detroit's biggest need? Scoring...
Incorrect. They were the 13th best team offensively last season and this year they are struggling because of Larry Brown's offensive system that varies depending on his mood. Also Brown's inability to play players at positions where they would be better off (Corliss at SF, Darko spending some time at PF, a Sura/Rip backcourt, etc.)
along with scoring (which is Detroits biggest weakness, and has been for a while)
Again, incorrect.
2001-02: 10th in the league
2002-03: 13th in the league
but Detroit still could've swung a deal and gotten Kurt Thomas for Prince
But why? Thomas would be a waste off the bench backing up Wallace and they would lose Prince's defense. Don't forget the fact the salaries don't match.
Dallas for a while had three perimter guys (finely, Dirk and Nash) and they were very potent offensively without a legitimate post guy, similar with Milwalkee in 2001 (Robinson, Allen and Cassell). They couldve had similar scoring options had they drafted Carmelo
Finley, Dirk, Nash, Allen, Robinson and Cassell were (or still are) all better players than Hamilton, Billups and Anthony.
But you don't break up a team and begin rebuilding after 2 succesfull years when they were getting better, which is what detroit had.
They had to in order to stay competitive. Barry is 34, Curry is 35, Robinson is 37. Corliss and Chucky are 30. These guys are being moved out for younger guys, better guys or expiring contracts. And they didn't begin rebuilding. They've been rebuilding for three years, you don't start rebuilding and then stop once you've won the Central Division and won the East on a fluke.
corliss williamson will be declining
He's already doing it and will not be finishing in Detroit...
which means Detroit instead of seizing this opportunity to stockpile talent and continue moving up in the ranks of nba teams has decided to rebuild and hope Shaq and the Lakers just move along...
Which means Detroit, instead of seizing this opportunity when the East is simply horrible to add a player they don't really need and go to the Finals and lose instead of attempting to build a team that will be a legit championship club for a decade.
plus you have to factor in Chucky Atkins, Zelly and Elden Campbell who are decent bench scorers as well.
If Campbell doesn't start, he doesn't play. Chucky Atkins and "decent" should never be in the same sentence. Detroit's bench is not as great as it has been, Denver's is better.
And Carmelo is only 19 isnt he? Isnt it possible that he may improve and develop to the Tmac status?
No. Carmelo doesn't have the athleticism most of these superstars have. He's more likely to be a better handling and passing version of Glenn Robinson (which he already sorta is...) than the next Pierce or McGrady.
I also doubt the pistons would play a fastbreak offense
Oh god aren't they trying...and with the wrong players on the court to do it too...sigh...
Melo wouldve been a better pick becuase he wouldve helped detroit get better immediately (and in the future)
You don't know that if he'd help Detroit be better in the long run.
but when you are getting better each year like detroit and you are one step away from the finals, you want to improve every year and not start rebuilding again... which is what they did, and they fucked up becuase of it. Badly..
No, they didn't. They continued rebuilding from what they started. Look who the Pistons added in 2001. Cliff Robinson and Jon Barry. Two players with expiring contracts they later dumped (for Sura, after Dumars expertly extended Robinson in order to deal him, who has an expiring contract). They replaced Stackhouse with a younger better player. Basically replaced Robinson with two younger players (Deal cleared time for Okur, and they got Darko). They dumped Jon Barry for a younger player. Williamson or Atkins is gone after this year, both if they can get a good reserve point guard. Who knows, we may even see Billups, Wallace and Rip all moved. We might see everyone on this team gone. Joe Dumars probably still has a couple years to build his core before Darko (if he develops as expected, which should not be dismissed so quickly after watching just two games) should be close to any sort of stardom.
Matthew, you stated "Will Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey, Chucky Atkins, Williamson or Sura be effective [in three years]? No." While ignoring that Rip will be in his prime then you also ignored one big big key part. You add Carmelo to this team. They don't win the championship in the next three years. They cannot take down the powerhouse teams in the West. In three years you say everyone will not be any good, so what will they have? Carmelo Anthony. No matter how good he is, they will not win a title with him alone. Michael Jordan was the best player in the league during his career, but he did not win a title until he had the right team, with some very good players around him.
The problem is (and not just you Matthew) you haven't heard what Joe Dumars and the rest of the Pistons have said. Dumars goal is to win a championship. If doesn't think the players here can do it, they will be traded, no matter how popular. Stackhouse was traded and he was bashed for that. Hamilton was a better player last season. He was bashed for taking Prince and Okur. Those two are highly regarded players in the league. Robinson, Barry, Rebraca, Williamson, every move Dumars has made has been criticized and they have all turned out great. His batting average is astounding. Perhaps his one blemish, Carlisle was fired because he didn't think he was the man to lead them to a ring, though we can't evaluate that as of yet.
The Pistons will continue to add pieces here and there, maybe Darko won't be the superstar by the time they're ready to win it all, maybe Dumars will have found someone else. Win now is not a realistic goal, and Joe Dumars has asked us to be patient, the Pistons will build, continue to be a fairly good team as they add the pieces so that when the opportunity does come they won't just win, they will dominate and win again and again. Dumars has yet to let me down and I will continue to trust him until he does.
Matthew, great read. 
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