Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:19 pm
About the run and Gun, giving better shots why is Melo shooting 38%, the guy is one of my favourite players but its tru, he is also not even close to Tayshauns defensive ability, Melo is a player that will gamble more on defense and he isn't as smart of a defensive player, gambling = more steals and more blocks but more oppurtunities for the opponent to score
Rebuilding doesn't mean go out an get all rookies and less than 3year players, they are partially rebuilding not fully, you need some balance and veteran leadership on your team. They want to rebuild while also be a force in the East.
The Jordan thing has no basis
No he is right, sorry man, Portland wouldn't have even thought of this, they knew he was a scoring and rebounding machine, when he had minutes he averaged i think 15 and 8, they even said last season he would be an important part of the team and that they were thinking of moving Sheed to the 3 just to incorperate Randolph into the lineup.
The College game is nothing like the NBA so you shouldn't always make judgments from a players college performance. There are players that score 20 a game in college, come to the NBA and go to a team where they are expected to score and can't produce. Melo is good but he still needs to learn better decision making.
Detroit wants to be a defensive minded team, it was a good decision to keep prince.
Billups was hitting big shots almost every night during the season and through the playoffs, no player is perfect, New Jersey had a talented team so there is no shame in losing to them.
Melo is the #1 option but Denver doesn't play in a system where you go to Melo every time down the floor, they play on mismatches an who is hot, a lot of posting up Miller or Melo or feeding Lenard or Barry when they get hot. Denver has the most productive bench in the NBA and Nene is a beast
If Darko was on the Nuggets he still wouldn't play big minutes, does that mean he sucks, no but Nene is good, so is Marcus Camby and Chris Andersen. If Darko went to Cleveland would he start, NO but thats b/c they have Boozer and Z. Teams draft on needs in most situations, every team in 1st obviously would take Lebron and find a way to incorperate him to the system, many teams in 2nd would have taken Darko, he had impressive workouts and a solid big man is a rare comodity. Denver didn't have a small forward they could really count on and thats why Melo fits right in, and they are a young team so Melo really had no one to fight with for minutes, if he was on the Bucks, he would have Desmond Mason and Tim Thomas, so sometimes its all about where you go. Did you think Ronald Murray was good last year, or Micheal Redd was good in his rookie season, nope. But when you are stuck behind better seasoned players its hard to get minutes even if you are good. In Redd's case, Cassel, Allen, Big Dog and even Thomas . Murray's case, Cassell, Allen, Redd and Thomas, then Allen and Barry.
Also Billups is not Starbury, other than Oscar, Starbury is the only other player to average 20 and 8dimes. His role on Phoenix hasn't really changed, he is the #1 scoring option and he still looks for his shot and always will, he is just a much better passer than Billups.
But... you said they are rebuilding, so why bring in veterans who will help them win now?
Rebuilding doesn't mean go out an get all rookies and less than 3year players, they are partially rebuilding not fully, you need some balance and veteran leadership on your team. They want to rebuild while also be a force in the East.
The Jordan thing has no basis
Portland would have never traded Zach Randolph (who averaged 20 points and 11 rebounds during the season when he got 30+ minutes...who tore it up at a simliar pace and led the team back against the Mavericks...who they decided to make the centerpiece of the team) for Tayshaun Prince. Prince stopping McGrady and abusing Philadelphia's 6-4 and 6-5 Small Forwards would not be more enticing than Randolph's playing like an All-Star.
Portland had no idea he would have this kind of breakout season last year (or last off-season), and if they had known he was this good last season why did it take them untill they were one game away from being eliminated before making him the centrepiece? I'm sure Jermaine O'neal(from the 200 season) wouldve had similar numbers in similar minutes against dallas last post-season... and yet they traded him for what? A guy who plays the same position but nowhere near the same talent level.. My point is how can you say Portland knew what kind of player they had in Randolph before this season, and they didnt know what they in jermaine? If you say they did, then why did it take them so long to put Randolph as the centrepiece of the blazers? Once again it just doesnt make sense does it?
No he is right, sorry man, Portland wouldn't have even thought of this, they knew he was a scoring and rebounding machine, when he had minutes he averaged i think 15 and 8, they even said last season he would be an important part of the team and that they were thinking of moving Sheed to the 3 just to incorperate Randolph into the lineup.
The College game is nothing like the NBA so you shouldn't always make judgments from a players college performance. There are players that score 20 a game in college, come to the NBA and go to a team where they are expected to score and can't produce. Melo is good but he still needs to learn better decision making.
My plan wouldve been for them to trade prince and select carmelo. I know that means nothing, but thats really what this thread is all about (and how badly detroit fucked up)
Detroit wants to be a defensive minded team, it was a good decision to keep prince.
Billups seemed to step into that role in the playoffs last year.
Billups was hitting big shots almost every night during the season and through the playoffs, no player is perfect, New Jersey had a talented team so there is no shame in losing to them.
Seemed more like you were trying to say that his defensive stats showed he was a better defender, he was showing effieciency, you were showing straight stats without base.No, I was making a point that not everything is about stats. You think becuase a player gets a high number of points he is a superior offensive player (like saying Denvers offensive players are better to detroits, which is not the case).
That is not necessarily true. Carmelo is the number one option in denver, so every shot is contested. Plus as you shoot more you are more inclined to take bad shots or shots not in ryhtym (shots as the shot or game clock is about to expire, for example). So here you are basing your argument for Denvers players being better on offense strictly about stats, and here you are making an example of how stats can be decieving? Good Job!
Melo is the #1 option but Denver doesn't play in a system where you go to Melo every time down the floor, they play on mismatches an who is hot, a lot of posting up Miller or Melo or feeding Lenard or Barry when they get hot. Denver has the most productive bench in the NBA and Nene is a beast
If Darko was on the Nuggets he still wouldn't play big minutes, does that mean he sucks, no but Nene is good, so is Marcus Camby and Chris Andersen. If Darko went to Cleveland would he start, NO but thats b/c they have Boozer and Z. Teams draft on needs in most situations, every team in 1st obviously would take Lebron and find a way to incorperate him to the system, many teams in 2nd would have taken Darko, he had impressive workouts and a solid big man is a rare comodity. Denver didn't have a small forward they could really count on and thats why Melo fits right in, and they are a young team so Melo really had no one to fight with for minutes, if he was on the Bucks, he would have Desmond Mason and Tim Thomas, so sometimes its all about where you go. Did you think Ronald Murray was good last year, or Micheal Redd was good in his rookie season, nope. But when you are stuck behind better seasoned players its hard to get minutes even if you are good. In Redd's case, Cassel, Allen, Big Dog and even Thomas . Murray's case, Cassell, Allen, Redd and Thomas, then Allen and Barry.
Also Billups is not Starbury, other than Oscar, Starbury is the only other player to average 20 and 8dimes. His role on Phoenix hasn't really changed, he is the #1 scoring option and he still looks for his shot and always will, he is just a much better passer than Billups.
Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:32 pm
About the run and Gun, giving better shots why is Melo shooting 38%
I shall requote myself: "That is not necessarily true. Carmelo is the number one option in denver, so every shot is contested. Plus as you shoot more you are more inclined to take bad shots or shots not in ryhtym (shots as the shot or game clock is about to expire, for example). "
he is also not even close to Tayshauns defensive ability, Melo is a player that will gamble more on defense and he isn't as smart of a defensive player, gambling = more steals and more blocks but more oppurtunities for the opponent to score
Of course I know this, Going for blocks usually ends up in fouls and steals are a big gamble as well, probably worse becuase if you don't get the whole team defense usually collapses. However, my point was that stats arent everything, and that includes the offensive end. So Ben Bailey's argument that Denver has "better offensive players than Detroit becuase they score more" is also deceptive, becuase of the style of play Denver has in
Rebuilding doesn't mean go out an get all rookies and less than 3year players, they are partially rebuilding not fully, you need some balance and veteran leadership on your team. They want to rebuild while also be a force in the East.
But why though, it doesn't quite make sense for them to rebuild after having the best regular season record in the east and a trip to the conference finals... they were that close to the nba finals, and imo the reason why they lost to new jersey was their lack of scoring. So instead of bringing in a proven scorer who can also play ok defense and help out on the boards (another area detroit has struggled with over the past few years) what do they do? They get a player that wont be able to help them for at least 3 or 4 years. Will Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey, Chucky Atkins, Williamson or Sura be effective by then? No, so they could be very well still be rebuilding by the time Darko comes around (if he does at all). I could understand if Darko was effective now... but he isnt and he isnt helping him right now at all.
The Jordan thing has no basis
The Jordan comparison has basis becuase it shows a contradiction in Ben's logic. I don't agree with it, but it was Ben who contradicted himself so all I did was point it out.
No he is right, sorry man, Portland wouldn't have even thought of this, they knew he was a scoring and rebounding machine, when he had minutes he averaged i think 15 and 8, they even said last season he would be an important part of the team and that they were thinking of moving Sheed to the 3 just to incorperate Randolph into the lineup.
They moved Sheed to the sf in a desperate move becuase of injuries, and yes Randolph's play was great, but against Dallas. Like I said before, this is the same Blazer organisation that sent Jermaine O'neal to the Pacers for Dale Davis.. my point with that is if Portland knew about the skill Randolph had, why didnt they know about Jermaine O'neal? I still think Portland wouldve at least been tempted by Prince, and if not, they couldve maybe gotten Kurt Thomas from the knicks for Tayshuan and maybe Chucky Atkins, or even a younger guy like Chris Wilcox (7th pick from last years draft).
The College game is nothing like the NBA so you shouldn't always make judgments from a players college performance. There are players that score 20 a game in college, come to the NBA and go to a team where they are expected to score and can't produce. Melo is good but he still needs to learn better decision making.
Its a legit point. Melo was able to score in a similar system. I never said Carmelo is the best player in the nba becuase he was the best in college last year, all I said is Carmelo can play in a half court offense, which I think is a legitimate point.
Detroit wants to be a defensive minded team, it was a good decision to keep prince.
And they couldve kept prince and drafted Melo. They could've done alot of things really.. But instead on building on that foundation of making the eastern conference finals they start to rebuild and wait? wtf.. thats crazy. Its understandable for a team like New York to start rebuilding becuase they havent made the playoffs in 2 seasons, but for detroit to do it is just crazy. You can never win on defense alone either, and while the pistons do have some pieces of the offensive puzzle together, they could have their goto guy in melo right now, which would be better for the pistons than darko right now, wouldnt you agree?
Billups was hitting big shots almost every night during the season and through the playoffs, no player is perfect, New Jersey had a talented team so there is no shame in losing to them.
I didn't say there was shame in losing to New Jersey, but Billups could've used some help apart from Rip. Their defensive structure wouldnt have to be thrown out the window if Melo was there. Plus the Pistons would have Melo, Billups and Rip as their main scoring core along with some decent role players... I still cant see how melo would "hurt the pistons offensively"
Seemed more like you were trying to say that his defensive stats showed he was a better defender, he was showing effieciency, you were showing straight stats without base.
Please, He pulled out stats to (try to) prove why denver has better offensive talent, so i did the same thing but in the opposite way just to prove that stats can be deceptive. Read the whole thread
Melo is the #1 option but Denver doesn't play in a system where you go to Melo every time down the floor, they play on mismatches an who is hot, a lot of posting up Miller or Melo or feeding Lenard or Barry when they get hot. Denver has the most productive bench in the NBA and Nene is a beast
Ive seen the nuggets play a few times this year, and (when they do play their half court set) Carmelo does usually get the ball with the dominant space on the court to do his thing. Would he get the same looks in Detroit? Not this year no, but he would still be very effective in opening things up for the pistons backcourt becuase teams do have to respect him.. and in return Carmelo's % would go up becuase he wouldn't have to be the number one option
the time which is pretty much what he is in denver.all
Teams draft on needs in most situations
And what is Detroit's biggest need? Scoring... somthing Melo can provide now (and in the future) and wouldve made Detroit better right now, plain and simple.
Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:26 am
I did read the whole thing but i think Detroit just wanted a big man, you also said one of their needs was rebounding.
I still don't agree with the Randolph thing it wasn't even a trade that was talked about
This was said by John Nash in the summer, he was talking about how he was trying to trade Wallace.
I think its b/c they wanted a low post scorer instead of another perimeter scorer, if they got Melo it wouldn't be bad but they would just have 3 perimeter scorers and no one to go to down low. Another example, if Jerry Stackhouse wasn't injured and Hayes didn't get minutes we wouldn't think he was good either but he is. Just give the boy some time, and he is one year behind the other guys so s'all good.
Yea having Melo would be better right now, but the pistons wouldn't win the NBA chamionship, they know even if they made it to the finals they would never beat LA, SA etc. So if they can get a big man to develop for the future then maybe in a few years they can win.
I think Denver's offense is a little better, in order to run the ball you need players that can run and you need a solid bench b/c running gets you tired. Detroit isn't a team that can play run and gun. Billups and Rip are better scorers than Voshon and Miller, Melo better than Tayshaun, Nene better than Ben and Okur better than Camby. But on the bench Detroit's scorers arent as good, Sura and Big nasty aren't better Denver Boykins and Barry. Denver has a litte edge there, well wherever John Barry goes seems to always have the league's highest scoring bench. Sac, Detroit, now Denver.
Well Denver is my second team after Toronto so I've watched all but about 5 games, Melo is the #1 guy but he doesn't have a role like Paul Pierce or Tmac on his team. He also takes bad shots its not that he's always guarded. He also gets open but he takes a lot of pull up three's and forces some shots, he needs to ease up on the three's. On his team Melo is like a Micheal Redd (Redd gets pressured more b/c his shot is money), he's the go to guy but people won't clamp down on him.
I agree Melo would not hurt the Pistons, there is no proof of that. We could only know if Melo was on the Pistons right now. The pistons wouldn't play fast break ball though and Melo would be the third man after Billups and Rip since they are proven scorers. But he will get his shots. He still needs to be better on his decisions but it will come he is a Rook.
Look, swingmen are a dime a dozen. We all know that. Last seaoson Detroit started a guy that wasn't drafted and this season they are starting a late first round pick. It's not like Melo is a once in a decade type player. But a skilled big man is not that easy to find.
Many people thought that Detroits best summer move was, thinking long term by drafting Darko Milicic over Carmelo Anthony. So none of them was expecting him to be some beast right now.
Darko is also still growing so in a few years he could be about 7'2.
I still don't agree with the Randolph thing it wasn't even a trade that was talked about
This was said by John Nash in the summer, he was talking about how he was trying to trade Wallace.
Nash said most of the interest has been in Wallace, Wells, Qyntel Woods and Zach Randolph. He said Randolph is virtually untouchable.
Though Nash said it is not fair to say anybody is being shopped more aggressively than any other player, a league source said Patterson is the player Nash is more trying to push. It is because of the confrontation Randolph and Patterson got into last season. Also, the team is clearly committing to Randolph.
What happens if he can't deal Patterson?
"I don't think they have any other choice than to co-exist," Nash said. "We don't intend to trade Zach. It is very possible they will be on this roster together, and if so, that is the only choice they have."
And they couldve kept prince and drafted Melo. They could've done alot of things really.. But instead on building on that foundation of making the eastern conference finals they start to rebuild and wait? wtf.. thats crazy. Its understandable for a team like New York to start rebuilding becuase they havent made the playoffs in 2 seasons, but for detroit to do it is just crazy. You can never win on defense alone either, and while the pistons do have some pieces of the offensive puzzle together, they could have their goto guy in melo right now, which would be better for the pistons than darko right now, wouldnt you agree?
I think its b/c they wanted a low post scorer instead of another perimeter scorer, if they got Melo it wouldn't be bad but they would just have 3 perimeter scorers and no one to go to down low. Another example, if Jerry Stackhouse wasn't injured and Hayes didn't get minutes we wouldn't think he was good either but he is. Just give the boy some time, and he is one year behind the other guys so s'all good.
Yea having Melo would be better right now, but the pistons wouldn't win the NBA chamionship, they know even if they made it to the finals they would never beat LA, SA etc. So if they can get a big man to develop for the future then maybe in a few years they can win.
Please, He pulled out stats to (try to) prove why denver has better offensive talent, so i did the same thing but in the opposite way just to prove that stats can be deceptive. Read the whole thread
I think Denver's offense is a little better, in order to run the ball you need players that can run and you need a solid bench b/c running gets you tired. Detroit isn't a team that can play run and gun. Billups and Rip are better scorers than Voshon and Miller, Melo better than Tayshaun, Nene better than Ben and Okur better than Camby. But on the bench Detroit's scorers arent as good, Sura and Big nasty aren't better Denver Boykins and Barry. Denver has a litte edge there, well wherever John Barry goes seems to always have the league's highest scoring bench. Sac, Detroit, now Denver.
Ive seen the nuggets play a few times this year, and (when they do play their half court set) Carmelo does usually get the ball with the dominant space on the court to do his thing. Would he get the same looks in Detroit? Not this year no, but he would still be very effective in opening things up for the pistons backcourt becuase teams do have to respect him.. and in return Carmelo's % would go up becuase he wouldn't have to be the number one option
Well Denver is my second team after Toronto so I've watched all but about 5 games, Melo is the #1 guy but he doesn't have a role like Paul Pierce or Tmac on his team. He also takes bad shots its not that he's always guarded. He also gets open but he takes a lot of pull up three's and forces some shots, he needs to ease up on the three's. On his team Melo is like a Micheal Redd (Redd gets pressured more b/c his shot is money), he's the go to guy but people won't clamp down on him.
I agree Melo would not hurt the Pistons, there is no proof of that. We could only know if Melo was on the Pistons right now. The pistons wouldn't play fast break ball though and Melo would be the third man after Billups and Rip since they are proven scorers. But he will get his shots. He still needs to be better on his decisions but it will come he is a Rook.
Look, swingmen are a dime a dozen. We all know that. Last seaoson Detroit started a guy that wasn't drafted and this season they are starting a late first round pick. It's not like Melo is a once in a decade type player. But a skilled big man is not that easy to find.
Many people thought that Detroits best summer move was, thinking long term by drafting Darko Milicic over Carmelo Anthony. So none of them was expecting him to be some beast right now.
It was an unusual approach in the win-now NBA, and while most of the other Detroit players understood it — “we weren’t drafting the best player possible, the way other teams would if they were in the second or third position, we were drafting on need,” Chauncey Billups says — Milicic did not see himself as merely a future commodity.
Darko is also still growing so in a few years he could be about 7'2.
Thu Dec 25, 2003 9:37 am
Good morning 
Thats correct, But Carmelo is a superior rebounder to Tayshaun, so he would be helping in that department as well, along with scoring (which is Detroits biggest weakness, and has been for a while). So they couldve got a player that helps them immediately in both of thei biggest weaknesses right now but instead they drafted a project, which was a mistake.
I concede that maybe Zach Randolph wasn't availavable after reading that now, but Detroit still could've swung a deal and gotten Kurt Thomas for Prince, or they even could've kept Tayshuan and had him come off the bench? This line-up isnt too bad:
Wallace
Okur
Melo
Hamilton
Billups
Bench: Zelly/Campbell, Williamson (at the pf), Prince, Sura, Atkins.
Dallas for a while had three perimter guys (finely, Dirk and Nash) and they were very potent offensively without a legitimate post guy, similar with Milwalkee in 2001 (Robinson, Allen and Cassell). They couldve had similar scoring options had they drafted Carmelo, and maybe they would be contending when you think about how good they are defensively, and how good Carmelo would've made them (or help make them) offensively. But now they just have a guy sitting on the bench who might be a player in this league.
But you don't break up a team and begin rebuilding after 2 succesfull years when they were getting better, which is what detroit had. They had a solid base and all they needed was that goto guy that can if needed create his own shot and break down a defense in crunch time that Carmelo is.. But instead they drafted a project player that might develop in 3 or 4 years.. when ben wallace and corliss williamson will be declining.. so its possible detroit in 3 or 4 years may be forced to rebuild again.. and who knows? In 3 or 4 years the nba may belong to Vince and the raptors, Lebron and the cavs or Chicago with their young nucleas? And thats just in the east... which means Detroit instead of seizing this opportunity to stockpile talent and continue moving up in the ranks of nba teams has decided to rebuild and hope Shaq and the Lakers just move along... not smart imo.
But you included Carmelo and the whole tread is about Detroit would be better if they took carmelo instead of Darko. So its a tie not including Anthony, plus you have to factor in Chucky Atkins, Zelly and Elden Campbell who are decent bench scorers as well.
Thats right, he isnt a Tmac or Paul Pierce, but he is the focal point for opposing teams to stop him. And Carmelo is only 19 isnt he? Isnt it possible that he may improve and develop to the Tmac status? I think thats a real possibilty, and a better chance than Darko has of being a dominant post player.
I also doubt the pistons would play a fastbreak offense, and thats why i said that Carmelo in college dominated in in the half court offense. I'm not saying he would dominate the nba the same way (or not just yet) but he has proven he can score in that same type of system..
And who's to say they actually found one in Darko? He could be a Kwame Brown all over again. Melo wouldve been a better pick becuase he wouldve helped detroit get better immediately (and in the future) where Darko is just a big gamble and there is a good chance he wont develop. I'm not saying he wont, but when you are getting better each year like detroit and you are one step away from the finals, you want to improve every year and not start rebuilding again... which is what they did, and they fucked up becuase of it. Badly..
And many people right now, thinking long term and short term, think that detroit shouldve taken carmelo.
I did read the whole thing but i think Detroit just wanted a big man, you also said one of their needs was rebounding.
Thats correct, But Carmelo is a superior rebounder to Tayshaun, so he would be helping in that department as well, along with scoring (which is Detroits biggest weakness, and has been for a while). So they couldve got a player that helps them immediately in both of thei biggest weaknesses right now but instead they drafted a project, which was a mistake.
I concede that maybe Zach Randolph wasn't availavable after reading that now, but Detroit still could've swung a deal and gotten Kurt Thomas for Prince, or they even could've kept Tayshuan and had him come off the bench? This line-up isnt too bad:
Wallace
Okur
Melo
Hamilton
Billups
Bench: Zelly/Campbell, Williamson (at the pf), Prince, Sura, Atkins.
I think its b/c they wanted a low post scorer instead of another perimeter scorer, if they got Melo it wouldn't be bad but they would just have 3 perimeter scorers and no one to go to down low. Another example, if Jerry Stackhouse wasn't injured and Hayes didn't get minutes we wouldn't think he was good either but he is. Just give the boy some time, and he is one year behind the other guys so s'all good.
Dallas for a while had three perimter guys (finely, Dirk and Nash) and they were very potent offensively without a legitimate post guy, similar with Milwalkee in 2001 (Robinson, Allen and Cassell). They couldve had similar scoring options had they drafted Carmelo, and maybe they would be contending when you think about how good they are defensively, and how good Carmelo would've made them (or help make them) offensively. But now they just have a guy sitting on the bench who might be a player in this league.
Yea having Melo would be better right now, but the pistons wouldn't win the NBA chamionship, they know even if they made it to the finals they would never beat LA, SA etc. So if they can get a big man to develop for the future then maybe in a few years they can win.
But you don't break up a team and begin rebuilding after 2 succesfull years when they were getting better, which is what detroit had. They had a solid base and all they needed was that goto guy that can if needed create his own shot and break down a defense in crunch time that Carmelo is.. But instead they drafted a project player that might develop in 3 or 4 years.. when ben wallace and corliss williamson will be declining.. so its possible detroit in 3 or 4 years may be forced to rebuild again.. and who knows? In 3 or 4 years the nba may belong to Vince and the raptors, Lebron and the cavs or Chicago with their young nucleas? And thats just in the east... which means Detroit instead of seizing this opportunity to stockpile talent and continue moving up in the ranks of nba teams has decided to rebuild and hope Shaq and the Lakers just move along... not smart imo.
I think Denver's offense is a little better, in order to run the ball you need players that can run and you need a solid bench b/c running gets you tired. Detroit isn't a team that can play run and gun. Billups and Rip are better scorers than Voshon and Miller, Melo better than Tayshaun, Nene better than Ben and Okur better than Camby. But on the bench Detroit's scorers arent as good, Sura and Big nasty aren't better Denver Boykins and Barry. Denver has a litte edge there, well wherever John Barry goes seems to always have the league's highest scoring bench. Sac, Detroit, now Denver.
But you included Carmelo and the whole tread is about Detroit would be better if they took carmelo instead of Darko. So its a tie not including Anthony, plus you have to factor in Chucky Atkins, Zelly and Elden Campbell who are decent bench scorers as well.
Well Denver is my second team after Toronto so I've watched all but about 5 games, Melo is the #1 guy but he doesn't have a role like Paul Pierce or Tmac on his team. He also takes bad shots its not that he's always guarded. He also gets open but he takes a lot of pull up three's and forces some shots, he needs to ease up on the three's. On his team Melo is like a Micheal Redd (Redd gets pressured more b/c his shot is money), he's the go to guy but people won't clamp down on him.
Thats right, he isnt a Tmac or Paul Pierce, but he is the focal point for opposing teams to stop him. And Carmelo is only 19 isnt he? Isnt it possible that he may improve and develop to the Tmac status? I think thats a real possibilty, and a better chance than Darko has of being a dominant post player.
I agree Melo would not hurt the Pistons, there is no proof of that. We could only know if Melo was on the Pistons right now. The pistons wouldn't play fast break ball though and Melo would be the third man after Billups and Rip since they are proven scorers. But he will get his shots. He still needs to be better on his decisions but it will come he is a Rook.
I also doubt the pistons would play a fastbreak offense, and thats why i said that Carmelo in college dominated in in the half court offense. I'm not saying he would dominate the nba the same way (or not just yet) but he has proven he can score in that same type of system..
Look, swingmen are a dime a dozen. We all know that. Last seaoson Detroit started a guy that wasn't drafted and this season they are starting a late first round pick. It's not like Melo is a once in a decade type player. But a skilled big man is not that easy to find.
And who's to say they actually found one in Darko? He could be a Kwame Brown all over again. Melo wouldve been a better pick becuase he wouldve helped detroit get better immediately (and in the future) where Darko is just a big gamble and there is a good chance he wont develop. I'm not saying he wont, but when you are getting better each year like detroit and you are one step away from the finals, you want to improve every year and not start rebuilding again... which is what they did, and they fucked up becuase of it. Badly..
Many people thought that Detroits best summer move was, thinking long term by drafting Darko Milicic over Carmelo Anthony. So none of them was expecting him to be some beast right now.
And many people right now, thinking long term and short term, think that detroit shouldve taken carmelo.
Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:59 am
, you have to ask yourself how can Denver be putting up those kinds of numbers with Carmelo there, considering you said before that Carmelo would hurt Detroit... so if he would hurt Detroit, how come isnt he hurting Denver. It has to be either the system (run and gun) or the players for the reason they are getting better stats on the offensive end. So which one is it? If you say its the system, then surely you cant stick to your "point" that denver has better offensive players... and if you say its the players, then how can you say Carmelo would hurt a team of "lesser" offensive talent? Doesn't quick make sense what your saying here does it?...
You ignore the fact that it is both the system and the players. Carmelo would hurt the Pistons as I said because he would take shots from the other players because they are one of the slowest teams in the league, it doesn't hurt Denver because they are the second fastest team in the league and that allows Carmelo to get lots of shots and the other players to get shots as well. Denver's offense is not leading to more mismatched fast breaks like say New Jerseys (who has been the opposite of the Pistons the last two years...I.E. a poor offensive team) it means a less controlled offense in which shots are often taken earlier in the shot clock and sets are not focused on.
But... you said they are rebuilding, so why bring in veterans who will help them win now?
Because of expectations placed on them require them to rebuild on the fly. However, they did not bring in many veterans. They signed Campbell because they were unsure about the EuroThree, now they are sure and Campbell is out of the lineup. They signed Fowkles to add another defensive stopper.
Portland had no idea he would have this kind of breakout season last year (or last off-season)
Yes, they did. Because they had been watching him the last two years. When he was in his rookie year he was playing as well as Dale Davis and then last year when he was the ninth best Power Forward in the league. One spot above Rasheed.
My point is how can you say Portland knew what kind of player they had in Randolph before this season, and they didnt know what they in jermaine
First of all, you ignore they were trying to add the piece to make them a championship team (like you erroneously claim Carmelo would do to Detroit) and decided to ditch their project. The difference is then they were a legit contender, now they are starting over.
Jermaine O'Neal: 15.2ppg 12.9rpg
Zach Randolph: 24.0ppg 12.6rpg
60 Points higher? What exactly do you mean by scoring higher? The point I was using about college was he can score in a half court offense similar to how detroit plays...
First of all, Syracuse did not play the style of offense that Detroit does and there Carmelo was the teams best offensive option and their best overall shooter, he would not be that in Detroit.
.389
.453
Apx. 60 points...I rounded to .390 and .450...
Yes really really well against New Jersey
After his ankle injury.
You think becuase a player gets a high number of points he is a superior offensive player (like saying Denvers offensive players are better to detroits, which is not the case).
No, I don't. I only chose to look at points per 48 for that instance, want the whole numbers of the select players?
Andre Miller - 22.7 points (17.7 attempts, .425 shooting), 2.3 offensive rebounds, 8.9 assists, 4.6 turnovers
Voshon Lenard - 24.5 (21.9, .413), 1.3, 3.4, 2.6
Earl Boykins - 24.0 (21.0, .434), 1.4, 7.8, 2.8
Jon Barry - 15.3 (13.6, .372), 0.9, 5.2, 2.1
Rodney White - 28.0 (24.1, .459), 2.6, 2.8, 4.6
Chauncey Billups - 24.3 (18.7, .389), 0.8, 6.7, 3.5
Richard Hamilton - 24.5 (20.3, .458), 1.4, 4.3, 3.6
Mehmet Okur - 19.8 (15.8, .428), 5.5, 2.2, 3.3
Corliss Williamson - 20.0 (18.1, .434), 2.9, 1.8, 4.3
Again, Detroit's offense: 97.8 (19th)...Denver's offense: 100.9 (9th)
That is not necessarily true. Carmelo is the number one option in denver, so every shot is contested. Plus as you shoot more you are more inclined to take bad shots or shots not in ryhtym (shots as the shot or game clock is about to expire, for example).
But, you ignore that Prince takes almost all of his shots with the shot clock on the verge of expiring. If he did shoot more then his percentage would of course drop, but it is so much higher than Carmelo's even if it would bring him to just about dead even, his defense and passing would make him an overall better player.
But Darko isnt getting minutes becuase he just isnt ready yet, otherwise detroit would play him, right? They have no other reason not to play him, do they?
Mehmet Okur, Zeljko Rebraca, Elden Campbell and Ben Wallace.
If Darko was on the Nuggets he still wouldn't play big minutes, does that mean he sucks, no but Nene is good, so is Marcus Camby and Chris Andersen.
He would've played more minutes because Denver had no expectations put on them and they wouldn't have brought in Elson so Darko would be able to pick up those minutes. We'd probably be hearing (since Carmelo wouldn't play very much in Detroit) "Detroit should've taken Darko."
But when you are stuck behind better seasoned players its hard to get minutes even if you are good. In Redd's case, Cassel, Allen, Big Dog and even Thomas .
Yeah, but aside from his Rookie Year he was a better player than all those guys except maybe Allen (and Cassell is out of position somewhat but he outplayed Payton last year so we can easily substitue
).Also Billups is not Starbury, other than Oscar, Starbury is the only other player to average 20 and 8dimes.
That's kinda decieving though...The Big O got 25.7 and 9.5 for his career...Marbury is just 20 and 8...I mean Magic had 19.5 and 11.2...that's better IMO...but I know what you're getting at here.
So Ben Bailey's argument that Denver has "better offensive players than Detroit becuase they score more" is also deceptive, becuase of the style of play Denver has in
No, it isn't. Because I accounted for the pace the two teams play at.
imo the reason why they lost to new jersey was their lack of scoring.
Because you're uninformed. Detroit was the 13th best team on the offensive end last season. New Jersey was only 21st.
Will Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey, Chucky Atkins, Williamson or Sura be effective by then?
The last three will be gone from Detroit if all goes according to plan.
my point with that is if Portland knew about the skill Randolph had, why didnt they know about Jermaine O'neal?
Because O'Neal wasn't as developed as Randolph at that point!
I still think Portland wouldve at least been tempted by Prince, and if not, they couldve maybe gotten Kurt Thomas from the knicks for Tayshuan and maybe Chucky Atkins, or even a younger guy like Chris Wilcox
But why? If we follow your logic, they have Sheed why do you need Thomas or Wilcox? And why would you get Atkins when you already have Stoudamire (who is better) and McInnis (who is better and bigger) who also have too big of contracts?
And what is Detroit's biggest need? Scoring...
Incorrect. They were the 13th best team offensively last season and this year they are struggling because of Larry Brown's offensive system that varies depending on his mood. Also Brown's inability to play players at positions where they would be better off (Corliss at SF, Darko spending some time at PF, a Sura/Rip backcourt, etc.)
along with scoring (which is Detroits biggest weakness, and has been for a while)
Again, incorrect.
2001-02: 10th in the league
2002-03: 13th in the league
but Detroit still could've swung a deal and gotten Kurt Thomas for Prince
But why? Thomas would be a waste off the bench backing up Wallace and they would lose Prince's defense. Don't forget the fact the salaries don't match.
Dallas for a while had three perimter guys (finely, Dirk and Nash) and they were very potent offensively without a legitimate post guy, similar with Milwalkee in 2001 (Robinson, Allen and Cassell). They couldve had similar scoring options had they drafted Carmelo
Finley, Dirk, Nash, Allen, Robinson and Cassell were (or still are) all better players than Hamilton, Billups and Anthony.
But you don't break up a team and begin rebuilding after 2 succesfull years when they were getting better, which is what detroit had.
They had to in order to stay competitive. Barry is 34, Curry is 35, Robinson is 37. Corliss and Chucky are 30. These guys are being moved out for younger guys, better guys or expiring contracts. And they didn't begin rebuilding. They've been rebuilding for three years, you don't start rebuilding and then stop once you've won the Central Division and won the East on a fluke.
corliss williamson will be declining
He's already doing it and will not be finishing in Detroit...
which means Detroit instead of seizing this opportunity to stockpile talent and continue moving up in the ranks of nba teams has decided to rebuild and hope Shaq and the Lakers just move along...
Which means Detroit, instead of seizing this opportunity when the East is simply horrible to add a player they don't really need and go to the Finals and lose instead of attempting to build a team that will be a legit championship club for a decade.
plus you have to factor in Chucky Atkins, Zelly and Elden Campbell who are decent bench scorers as well.
If Campbell doesn't start, he doesn't play. Chucky Atkins and "decent" should never be in the same sentence. Detroit's bench is not as great as it has been, Denver's is better.
And Carmelo is only 19 isnt he? Isnt it possible that he may improve and develop to the Tmac status?
No. Carmelo doesn't have the athleticism most of these superstars have. He's more likely to be a better handling and passing version of Glenn Robinson (which he already sorta is...) than the next Pierce or McGrady.
I also doubt the pistons would play a fastbreak offense
Oh god aren't they trying...and with the wrong players on the court to do it too...sigh...
Melo wouldve been a better pick becuase he wouldve helped detroit get better immediately (and in the future)
You don't know that if he'd help Detroit be better in the long run.
but when you are getting better each year like detroit and you are one step away from the finals, you want to improve every year and not start rebuilding again... which is what they did, and they fucked up becuase of it. Badly..
No, they didn't. They continued rebuilding from what they started. Look who the Pistons added in 2001. Cliff Robinson and Jon Barry. Two players with expiring contracts they later dumped (for Sura, after Dumars expertly extended Robinson in order to deal him, who has an expiring contract). They replaced Stackhouse with a younger better player. Basically replaced Robinson with two younger players (Deal cleared time for Okur, and they got Darko). They dumped Jon Barry for a younger player. Williamson or Atkins is gone after this year, both if they can get a good reserve point guard. Who knows, we may even see Billups, Wallace and Rip all moved. We might see everyone on this team gone. Joe Dumars probably still has a couple years to build his core before Darko (if he develops as expected, which should not be dismissed so quickly after watching just two games) should be close to any sort of stardom.
Matthew, you stated "Will Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Chauncey, Chucky Atkins, Williamson or Sura be effective [in three years]? No." While ignoring that Rip will be in his prime then you also ignored one big big key part. You add Carmelo to this team. They don't win the championship in the next three years. They cannot take down the powerhouse teams in the West. In three years you say everyone will not be any good, so what will they have? Carmelo Anthony. No matter how good he is, they will not win a title with him alone. Michael Jordan was the best player in the league during his career, but he did not win a title until he had the right team, with some very good players around him.
The problem is (and not just you Matthew) you haven't heard what Joe Dumars and the rest of the Pistons have said. Dumars goal is to win a championship. If doesn't think the players here can do it, they will be traded, no matter how popular. Stackhouse was traded and he was bashed for that. Hamilton was a better player last season. He was bashed for taking Prince and Okur. Those two are highly regarded players in the league. Robinson, Barry, Rebraca, Williamson, every move Dumars has made has been criticized and they have all turned out great. His batting average is astounding. Perhaps his one blemish, Carlisle was fired because he didn't think he was the man to lead them to a ring, though we can't evaluate that as of yet.
The Pistons will continue to add pieces here and there, maybe Darko won't be the superstar by the time they're ready to win it all, maybe Dumars will have found someone else. Win now is not a realistic goal, and Joe Dumars has asked us to be patient, the Pistons will build, continue to be a fairly good team as they add the pieces so that when the opportunity does come they won't just win, they will dominate and win again and again. Dumars has yet to let me down and I will continue to trust him until he does.
Fri Dec 26, 2003 12:39 am
im gonna make a statement with confidence......Darko Milicic will be a better player than Carmelo Anthony
quote me on that
quote me on that
Fri Dec 26, 2003 11:10 am
stack42 wrote:im gonna make a statement with confidence......Darko Milicic will be a better player than Carmelo Anthony
quote me on that
ohhh....i like the bravery
Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:26 am
i recommend new question to show-who wants to be a millionare
who is bust? a-darko b- milicic c-darko d-darko bust
right answer?-all
busta rhymes will have a new name-BUSTa Darko
New hit-ITS cool to be a BUST.!
ok,just kidding.
who is bust? a-darko b- milicic c-darko d-darko bust
right answer?-all
busta rhymes will have a new name-BUSTa Darko
New hit-ITS cool to be a BUST.!
ok,just kidding.
Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:48 am
Sorry about the length in replying, been busy during these holidays. Now to the post
If its both the system and players, you cant point directly to the players as a reason for why Denvers offense is better (which is what you did before). Denver does get better opportunities through their fastbreaks (3 on 2's, 2 on 1's etc etc) I'm sure I mentioned that before..
I don't agree with any reason to rebuild... and unless they actually do win a championship in 2 or 3 years, I won't at all. This team was on the verge of the nba finals, and then they realise its not good enough? Thats crazy.. and shows they have made mistakes. Not everything Joe Dumars has done has been good (although he has built 2 very succesfull seasons, he must get some credit for that.. but i think he should accept the blame for rebuilding after one series loss)
According to who exactly? And if he was better than sheed, why did it take them untill they were ONE game away from being eliminated before they decided to start him? If they felt he was better than sheed wouldnt they have started him down the strecth of last season for a better playoff positioning? Or at least started him at the begining of the Dallas series?
Its the same logic tho... with Jermaine and Zach. If they had known (like you claim) that Zach was such a gun of a player, how could they not know that Jermaine Oneal was going to be such a good player?
I dont know much about the college game, but i felt that mcmenara (or whatever his name is, the white pg on syracuse) was their best shooter. However, in the tournament they do play a similar style. Half court against the zone..its not identical, but its similar.
After it yes, but he was able to play well against philly with it after the injury as well... Billups cant lead them by himself. Just look at what New Jersey did in 2000. They have KVH at power forward, and they had the number one pick. Now, if they were going by Joe Dumars' logic they shouldve selected Darius Miles (unproven player, similar in that regard to Darko). But what did they do? They drafted the best player available to them in Kenyon Martin, and look how much better of a move that was for them. They might not have been nba champions, but im sure they prefer to be in this position than still in the rebuilding phase that detroit has decided to go into. And just look at the difference Martin has helped create in New Jersey (who were a perrinal lottery team).. and you cant tell me that Carmelo would be detrimental to Detroit.
Once again, its the system that is giving the denver players inflated stats imo.
And you dont think Detroit needs some offensive help (ie, Carmelo Anthony)
Yeah when he is wide open, and for good reason. You say I live in a fantasy world, but you think that Tayshuan and Carmelo are "dead even" in terms of scoring abilty..
So you are saying now that Darko is ready? And he isnt getting minutes becuase Okur, Zelly, Campbell and Wallace are better than him?
But hold on, didnt you say that Joe D doesn't care about what the fans think and he does "whats best for the franchise in the long run"? If thats the case, wouldnt he want Darko to at least get a bit more minutes so he can develop confidence in games (especially after you insinuated that he is in fact ready, but the frontcourt players for detroit is better than him...)
New Jersy 4
Detroit 0
So tell me how Detroit was better offensively and lost to New Jersy.. New jersey is better defensively? lol.. Detroit has 2 role players on offense in Rip and Chauncey, and they cant be relied upon to be goto guys. Carmelo would be able to help them (thus making them better).. if you cant see that and understand it, well its not my problem.
Then why bring them in (or at least sura and campbell) if they are rebuilding.. if you say becuase of expectations of the fans you cant say that joe dumars is doing whats best for detroit (considering your arguement about mj being selfish a while back..)
To fill their needs (detroits).. if you think the current detroit team is better than a lineup of:
C: Wallace
PF: Thomas
SF: Melo
SG: Rip
PG: Chauncey
and then the bench of mehmet, zelly, corliss, sura well you are living in a shell. This team would win the east and at least be in a position of where they can win the nba finals.. now they are rebuilidng and praying what alot of people are thinking: Did detroit fuck up by not drafting melo and deciding to rebuild... i think they did. but we wont know untill 3 years or not, and Darko has shown me nothing yet. A shawn bradley mixed with kwame brown. You can hope all you want to.. i just dont see it happening. And even if it does, unless they get to the finals, there will still be questions of how succesfull it was to actually rebuild, becuase they couldve been alot better than they are now. Simple
And you cant say he wont. At least he is a good player now, Darko is a nothing player atm.. they could be alot better right now had they drafted properly imo
You ignore the fact that it is both the system and the players. Carmelo would hurt the Pistons as I said because he would take shots from the other players because they are one of the slowest teams in the league, it doesn't hurt Denver because they are the second fastest team in the league and that allows Carmelo to get lots of shots and the other players to get shots as well. Denver's offense is not leading to more mismatched fast breaks like say New Jerseys (who has been the opposite of the Pistons the last two years...I.E. a poor offensive team) it means a less controlled offense in which shots are often taken earlier in the shot clock and sets are not focused on.
If its both the system and players, you cant point directly to the players as a reason for why Denvers offense is better (which is what you did before). Denver does get better opportunities through their fastbreaks (3 on 2's, 2 on 1's etc etc) I'm sure I mentioned that before..
Because of expectations placed on them require them to rebuild on the fly. However, they did not bring in many veterans. They signed Campbell because they were unsure about the EuroThree, now they are sure and Campbell is out of the lineup. They signed Fowkles to add another defensive stopper.
I don't agree with any reason to rebuild... and unless they actually do win a championship in 2 or 3 years, I won't at all. This team was on the verge of the nba finals, and then they realise its not good enough? Thats crazy.. and shows they have made mistakes. Not everything Joe Dumars has done has been good (although he has built 2 very succesfull seasons, he must get some credit for that.. but i think he should accept the blame for rebuilding after one series loss)
Yes, they did. Because they had been watching him the last two years. When he was in his rookie year he was playing as well as Dale Davis and then last year when he was the ninth best Power Forward in the league. One spot above Rasheed.
According to who exactly? And if he was better than sheed, why did it take them untill they were ONE game away from being eliminated before they decided to start him? If they felt he was better than sheed wouldnt they have started him down the strecth of last season for a better playoff positioning? Or at least started him at the begining of the Dallas series?
First of all, you ignore they were trying to add the piece to make them a championship team (like you erroneously claim Carmelo would do to Detroit) and decided to ditch their project. The difference is then they were a legit contender, now they are starting over.
Its the same logic tho... with Jermaine and Zach. If they had known (like you claim) that Zach was such a gun of a player, how could they not know that Jermaine Oneal was going to be such a good player?
First of all, Syracuse did not play the style of offense that Detroit does and there Carmelo was the teams best offensive option and their best overall shooter, he would not be that in Detroit
I dont know much about the college game, but i felt that mcmenara (or whatever his name is, the white pg on syracuse) was their best shooter. However, in the tournament they do play a similar style. Half court against the zone..its not identical, but its similar.
After his ankle injury.
After it yes, but he was able to play well against philly with it after the injury as well... Billups cant lead them by himself. Just look at what New Jersey did in 2000. They have KVH at power forward, and they had the number one pick. Now, if they were going by Joe Dumars' logic they shouldve selected Darius Miles (unproven player, similar in that regard to Darko). But what did they do? They drafted the best player available to them in Kenyon Martin, and look how much better of a move that was for them. They might not have been nba champions, but im sure they prefer to be in this position than still in the rebuilding phase that detroit has decided to go into. And just look at the difference Martin has helped create in New Jersey (who were a perrinal lottery team).. and you cant tell me that Carmelo would be detrimental to Detroit.
No, I don't. I only chose to look at points per 48 for that instance, want the whole numbers of the select players?
Andre Miller - 22.7 points (17.7 attempts, .425 shooting), 2.3 offensive rebounds, 8.9 assists, 4.6 turnovers
Voshon Lenard - 24.5 (21.9, .413), 1.3, 3.4, 2.6
Earl Boykins - 24.0 (21.0, .434), 1.4, 7.8, 2.8
Jon Barry - 15.3 (13.6, .372), 0.9, 5.2, 2.1
Rodney White - 28.0 (24.1, .459), 2.6, 2.8, 4.6
Chauncey Billups - 24.3 (18.7, .389), 0.8, 6.7, 3.5
Richard Hamilton - 24.5 (20.3, .458), 1.4, 4.3, 3.6
Mehmet Okur - 19.8 (15.8, .428), 5.5, 2.2, 3.3
Corliss Williamson - 20.0 (18.1, .434), 2.9, 1.8, 4.3
Once again, its the system that is giving the denver players inflated stats imo.
Again, Detroit's offense: 97.8 (19th)...Denver's offense: 100.9 (9th)
And you dont think Detroit needs some offensive help (ie, Carmelo Anthony)
But, you ignore that Prince takes almost all of his shots with the shot clock on the verge of expiring. If he did shoot more then his percentage would of course drop, but it is so much higher than Carmelo's even if it would bring him to just about dead even, his defense and passing would make him an overall better player.
Yeah when he is wide open, and for good reason. You say I live in a fantasy world, but you think that Tayshuan and Carmelo are "dead even" in terms of scoring abilty..
Mehmet Okur, Zeljko Rebraca, Elden Campbell and Ben Wallace.
So you are saying now that Darko is ready? And he isnt getting minutes becuase Okur, Zelly, Campbell and Wallace are better than him?
He would've played more minutes because Denver had no expectations put on them and they wouldn't have brought in Elson so Darko would be able to pick up those minutes. We'd probably be hearing (since Carmelo wouldn't play very much in Detroit) "Detroit should've taken Darko."
But hold on, didnt you say that Joe D doesn't care about what the fans think and he does "whats best for the franchise in the long run"? If thats the case, wouldnt he want Darko to at least get a bit more minutes so he can develop confidence in games (especially after you insinuated that he is in fact ready, but the frontcourt players for detroit is better than him...)
Because you're uninformed. Detroit was the 13th best team on the offensive end last season. New Jersey was only 21st.
New Jersy 4
Detroit 0
So tell me how Detroit was better offensively and lost to New Jersy.. New jersey is better defensively? lol.. Detroit has 2 role players on offense in Rip and Chauncey, and they cant be relied upon to be goto guys. Carmelo would be able to help them (thus making them better).. if you cant see that and understand it, well its not my problem.
The last three will be gone from Detroit if all goes according to plan.
Then why bring them in (or at least sura and campbell) if they are rebuilding.. if you say becuase of expectations of the fans you cant say that joe dumars is doing whats best for detroit (considering your arguement about mj being selfish a while back..)
But why? If we follow your logic, they have Sheed why do you need Thomas or Wilcox? And why would you get Atkins when you already have Stoudamire (who is better) and McInnis (who is better and bigger) who also have too big of contracts?
To fill their needs (detroits).. if you think the current detroit team is better than a lineup of:
C: Wallace
PF: Thomas
SF: Melo
SG: Rip
PG: Chauncey
and then the bench of mehmet, zelly, corliss, sura well you are living in a shell. This team would win the east and at least be in a position of where they can win the nba finals.. now they are rebuilidng and praying what alot of people are thinking: Did detroit fuck up by not drafting melo and deciding to rebuild... i think they did. but we wont know untill 3 years or not, and Darko has shown me nothing yet. A shawn bradley mixed with kwame brown. You can hope all you want to.. i just dont see it happening. And even if it does, unless they get to the finals, there will still be questions of how succesfull it was to actually rebuild, becuase they couldve been alot better than they are now. Simple
You don't know that if he'd help Detroit be better in the long run.
And you cant say he wont. At least he is a good player now, Darko is a nothing player atm.. they could be alot better right now had they drafted properly imo
Sun Dec 28, 2003 9:59 am
Matthew, great read.
Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:48 pm
Yes, they did. Because they had been watching him the last two years. When he was in his rookie year he was playing as well as Dale Davis and then last year when he was the ninth best Power Forward in the league. One spot above Rasheed.
According to who exactly? And if he was better than sheed, why did it take them untill they were ONE game away from being eliminated before they decided to start him? If they felt he was better than sheed wouldnt they have started him down the strecth of last season for a better playoff positioning? Or at least started him at the begining of the Dallas series?
Its because of experience, you don't play a 2nd year player over a 7year veteran b/c he is showing some flashes but when they realized that they were on the verge of losing then they did.
Its the same logic tho... with Jermaine and Zach. If they had known (like you claim) that Zach was such a gun of a player, how could they not know that Jermaine Oneal was going to be such a good player?
Jermaine didn't show the flashes that Randolph did. Randolph took 2years to show what he could do, and they already had Jermaine for 4years so they probably got fed up.
I dont know much about the college game, but i felt that mcmenara (or whatever his name is, the white pg on syracuse) was their best shooter. However, in the tournament they do play a similar style. Half court against the zone..its not identical, but its similar.
yea mcdemera was the best spot up shooter and yea the styles are somewhat similar
And you dont think Detroit needs some offensive help (ie, Carmelo Anthony)
i don't really think they do, their backcourt is the in top 3 best scoring in the league so don't you think it makes more sense to get an inside scorer?
Yeah when he is wide open, and for good reason. You say I live in a fantasy world, but you think that Tayshuan and Carmelo are "dead even" in terms of scoring abilty..
tayshaun's offensive ability is not in the same level as melo's, the creativity is just not the same, he can creat but he's no a player you are going to say yea we are going to be going to tayshaun down the stretch every game, maybe on mismatches or when he's on fire but thats about all
So you are saying now that Darko is ready? And he isnt getting minutes becuase Okur, Zelly, Campbell and Wallace are better than him?
The are all better tougher and better interior players than him.
Larry brown is hard headed and is making the guy learn to play in the post which is not neccesarily his best stregth, he wieghs 245 lbs not that big either, but 5more than KG but KG would still destroy him in the post. Another example is how he's limited okurs 3point shooting this year.
But hold on, didnt you say that Joe D doesn't care about what the fans think and he does "whats best for the franchise in the long run"? If thats the case, wouldnt he want Darko to at least get a bit more minutes so he can develop confidence in games (especially after you insinuated that he is in fact ready, but the frontcourt players for detroit is better than him...)
Dumars is not the coach he doesn't control the rotation, normally managers don't like to tell the coach who to and not to play. If Micheal Redd (2 games in rookie season) and Ronald Murray (14games in rookie season) can get good then so can he and they were 2nd round picks.
New Jersy 4
Detroit 0
So tell me how Detroit was better offensively and lost to New Jersy.. New jersey is better defensively? lol.. Detroit has 2 role players on offense in Rip and Chauncey, and they cant be relied upon to be goto guys. Carmelo would be able to help them (thus making them better).. if you cant see that and understand it, well its not my problem.
How does Dallas lose to the Raptors, how does Sacremento lose to LA, how do the spurs constantly win. how does indiana win. I dunno.Then why bring them in (or at least sura and campbell) if they are rebuilding.. if you say becuase of expectations of the fans you cant say that joe dumars is doing whats best for detroit (considering your arguement about mj being selfish a while back..)
Veteran Leadershipwhat would they have given for thomas Tayshaun??, salary's don't match and why would NY want a 3.To fill their needs (detroits).. if you think the current detroit team is better than a lineup of:
C: Wallace
PF: Thomas
SF: Melo
SG: Rip
PG: Chauncey
and then the bench of mehmet, zelly, corliss, sura well you are living in a shell.And you cant say he wont. At least he is a good player now, Darko is a nothing player atm.. they could be alot better right now had they drafted properly imo
Meh... Melo would be good. But if they had Melo their inside line would still be lacking, which it is now and they know (or at least think) they aren't going to get a chance to draft a lottery big man anytime soon so why pass up. I guess how they thought of it is if we get Melo then we still don't have a young skilled big man for the future (not saying Okur isn't good) and it will be hard for us to get one later.
Last edited by fgrep15 on Sun Dec 28, 2003 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:33 pm
fgrep15 wrote:And you dont think Detroit needs some offensive help (ie, Carmelo Anthony)
i don't really think they do, their backcourt is the in top 3 best scoring in the league so don't you think it makes more sense to get an inside scorer?
Look, I'm not saying Detroit should've picked Carmelo over Darco, but inside scorer? Darco isn't an inside scorer just yet, your argument is way off right here. You're talking about scoring, which is what Carmelo can do. You saying they need inside scoring is absurd, cuz for another 2 years (the time it will take Darco) Darco isn't going to be an "inside scorer".
Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:34 pm
Its because of experience, you don't play a 2nd year player over a 7year veteran b/c he is showing some flashes but when they realized that they were on the verge of losing then they did.
Minnesota did in 1996 when kg was breaking out, they traded Christian Laetner for spud webb (lol) so KG could break out, and this was in kgs first season. So yes, thats what teams do when a young emerging player starts to emerge. Zach obviously didn't impress the blazers enough immediately...
Jermaine didn't show the flashes that Randolph did. Randolph took 2years to show what he could do, and they already had Jermaine for 4years so they probably got fed up.
Jermaine did show flashes otherwise Indiana wouldnt have wanted him would they?
i don't really think they do, their backcourt is the in top 3 best scoring in the league so don't you think it makes more sense to get an inside scorer?
Not always, does Dallas have a great inside scorer? Did milwalkee in 2001? They could have used prince as trade bait to get that inside player.. which is what ive said all along.
tayshaun's offensive ability is not in the same level as melo's, the creativity is just not the same, he can creat but he's no a player you are going to say yea we are going to be going to tayshaun down the stretch every game, maybe on mismatches or when he's on fire but thats about all
maybe you should have quoted ben on this, becuase he thinks otherwise.
The are all better tougher and better interior players than him.
Larry brown is hard headed and is making the guy learn to play in the post which is not neccesarily his best stregth, he wieghs 245 lbs not that big either, but 5more than KG but KG would still destroy him in the post. Another example is how he's limited okurs 3point shooting this year.
Which is my point exactly, Darko isnt ready for the nba. Melo is. Melo can help the pistons immediately, darko cant. Ive said that all along.
Dumars is not the coach he doesn't control the rotation, normally managers don't like to tell the coach who to and not to play. If Micheal Redd (2 games in rookie season) and Ronald Murray (14games in rookie season) can get good then so can he and they were 2nd round picks.
Dumars isnt no, thats correct. But i said wouldnt he want darko to be getting more minutes so he can get some experience? And if Kwame and Michael Olowakandi can be so bad so can Darko.
How does Dallas lose to the Raptors, how does Sacremento lose to LA, how do the spurs constantly win. how does indiana win. I dunno.
Thats not a 4 game sweep in the eastern conference playoffs..
Veteran Leadership
Bring in veterans? When rebuilding? Hold on.. Ben was critical of Jordan for bringing in Oak-Tree and Byron Russel, but he isnt critical of Dumars bringing in these other players... hmmm...
what would they have given for thomas Tayshaun??, salary's don't match and why would NY want a 3.
Tayshuan and Atkins perhaps? And considering that new york has too may power forwards, too little defense and had just traded their best defender in spree, im pretty sure new york would have at least listened to the deal.
Meh... Melo would be good. But if they had Melo their inside line would still be lacking, which it is now and they know (or at least think) they aren't going to get a chance to draft a lottery big man anytime soon so why pass up. I guess how they thought of it is if we get Melo then we still don't have a young skilled big man for the future (not saying Okur isn't good) and it will be hard for us to get one later.
People critisise portland for taking Sam Bowie ahead of michael jordan, and this is similar. Only difference is that Darko is so unproven its not funny, and melo has proven he can play and be the goto guy so far on offense. Like i said earlier, you have to take the best player available, like what new jersey did. Darko may never make an impact, Carmelo already has. If darko ever does, then come back to me. Untill then all detroit has is hope instead of results, which is what Carmelo Anthony would have provided.
Sun Dec 28, 2003 2:20 pm
i agree with you man but during and after the draft Detroit said they knew they weren't taking the best player available.....
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2003/11/09/prince_holds_court_in_detroit?mode=PF
http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/articles/2003/11/09/prince_holds_court_in_detroit?mode=PF
Ainge sees precisely where Dumars is coming from. He cautioned against drafting solely for size and referenced the Trail Blazers' decision in 1984 to take Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. But he also said he'd have had a tough time passing on Milicic.
"I think people are just too impatient," Ainge said. "The jury is still out on Milicic. But he's 18, he's over 7 foot, and he can play. Those guys are a lot harder to find than 6-6 guys who can play. Now, if Carmelo turns out to be Michael Jordan, then you might say it's the Sam Bowie Syndrome. But I don't think you can judge this thing for two years.
"A lot of teams have failed in the draft because they drafted for size. You have to be sure you're drafting quality size. This kid is quality size.
"He's 18. He's over 7 feet. He can dribble. He can shoot. I think he has a chance to be a very special player. But, having said that, Carmelo Anthony is a special player now. If this kid [Milicic] were playing for Denver, or a bad team, and not a team that is trying to win the Eastern Conference, he'd be doing spectacular things. The team might not be winning, but you'd see signs of greatness."
Sun Dec 28, 2003 8:15 pm
Just a few things...
I believe Prince averaged about 20 points per game at Kentucky and was a proven scorer, and that was with a few other guys who were good...Wayne Turner, Keith Bogans, that big guy whose name I forget. He probably would have been a lottery pick if he was a little more athletic and not so skinny...hell, you have a 6'9 guy who can guard guards and play three positions, plus he's a four year starter on a perenial powerhouse...why NOT draft him? That's just a note on Prince's scoring ability, I know you don't have much of an NCAA background.
Also, Syracuse didn't play the Detroit-style half court offense. It was more of a motion offense based on Melo setting up the offense by posting up high or low and then dishing to a cutting Hakim Warrick or back out to McNamara. They had another guy who could score, Warrick, and he'll be a first round pick this year...oh, and if Wayne Simien had been elgible or whatever, there's no way that Carmelo would have a NCAA championship ring...
Few other notes...
Zach Randolph had several great games througout the year as he was forced to be played because of injuries/suspensions/jailings (;))...but seriously, he was a known talent coming out of MSU. All the analysts were saying that if he had stayed to his sophomore year, he would have been a top 5 pick, and I agree because he was a monster in college as a frosh. The knock on him was his immaturity, and he was buried on the bench his rookie year because of that, and also because of the Blazer's veteran depth at forward. It's not like the coaches don't see the guys practice...you're acting like all of a sudden they put him in a game and it was a surprise that he did well. This kid was coached in college by Tom Izzo, a great coach and a better teacher, and if Izzo liked him, then an NBA coach will love him. Because of that, the odds are pretty good that the coaching staff of the Blazers knew Randolph's talent and informed the GM, and the GM knew that he would be the core of the team, or at least the starting PF, as Sheed's contract would soon be up...
As for the veterans of Charles Oakley and Byron Russell....Campbell, Sura, and Williamson are still useful...Oak and Russell haven't been productive since their seventeenhundredth season, which was like five years ago...
Oh, and the scorers argument? Jon Barry's been one of the best and most consistant bench scorer for the last five seasons. Voshon Lenard was the only scorer for the Raptors last year, averaging over 20ppg, I think, and Earl Boykins was arguably the second best player on the Warriors last year. Toss in Marcus Camby, Rodney White, and, of course, Melo's output, and you have a much better team of scorers than Detroit's primary bunch of Billups, Hamilton, and Williamson.
I'm going to stay out of the whole darko vs. melo thing...I'm just happy the Raptors got Chris Bosh
I believe Prince averaged about 20 points per game at Kentucky and was a proven scorer, and that was with a few other guys who were good...Wayne Turner, Keith Bogans, that big guy whose name I forget. He probably would have been a lottery pick if he was a little more athletic and not so skinny...hell, you have a 6'9 guy who can guard guards and play three positions, plus he's a four year starter on a perenial powerhouse...why NOT draft him? That's just a note on Prince's scoring ability, I know you don't have much of an NCAA background.
Also, Syracuse didn't play the Detroit-style half court offense. It was more of a motion offense based on Melo setting up the offense by posting up high or low and then dishing to a cutting Hakim Warrick or back out to McNamara. They had another guy who could score, Warrick, and he'll be a first round pick this year...oh, and if Wayne Simien had been elgible or whatever, there's no way that Carmelo would have a NCAA championship ring...
Few other notes...
Zach Randolph had several great games througout the year as he was forced to be played because of injuries/suspensions/jailings (;))...but seriously, he was a known talent coming out of MSU. All the analysts were saying that if he had stayed to his sophomore year, he would have been a top 5 pick, and I agree because he was a monster in college as a frosh. The knock on him was his immaturity, and he was buried on the bench his rookie year because of that, and also because of the Blazer's veteran depth at forward. It's not like the coaches don't see the guys practice...you're acting like all of a sudden they put him in a game and it was a surprise that he did well. This kid was coached in college by Tom Izzo, a great coach and a better teacher, and if Izzo liked him, then an NBA coach will love him. Because of that, the odds are pretty good that the coaching staff of the Blazers knew Randolph's talent and informed the GM, and the GM knew that he would be the core of the team, or at least the starting PF, as Sheed's contract would soon be up...
As for the veterans of Charles Oakley and Byron Russell....Campbell, Sura, and Williamson are still useful...Oak and Russell haven't been productive since their seventeenhundredth season, which was like five years ago...
Oh, and the scorers argument? Jon Barry's been one of the best and most consistant bench scorer for the last five seasons. Voshon Lenard was the only scorer for the Raptors last year, averaging over 20ppg, I think, and Earl Boykins was arguably the second best player on the Warriors last year. Toss in Marcus Camby, Rodney White, and, of course, Melo's output, and you have a much better team of scorers than Detroit's primary bunch of Billups, Hamilton, and Williamson.
I'm going to stay out of the whole darko vs. melo thing...I'm just happy the Raptors got Chris Bosh
Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:23 am
Mr. Shane wrote:I believe Prince averaged about 20 points per game at Kentucky and was a proven scorer, and that was with a few other guys who were good...Wayne Turner, Keith Bogans, that big guy whose name I forget. He probably would have been a lottery pick if he was a little more athletic and not so skinny...hell, you have a 6'9 guy who can guard guards and play three positions, plus he's a four year starter on a perenial powerhouse...why NOT draft him? That's just a note on Prince's scoring ability, I know you don't have much of an NCAA background.
Yea but i still don't think he has the coring ability of Melo, I know he can score but i don't see him as a guy you can constantly go to.
Another reason for Randolph's positions in the draft was his record and how he was percieved by teams, kinda like what happened to Nick Van Exel with him dropping to the 2nd round.
Mr. Shane wrote:Oh, and the scorers argument? Jon Barry's been one of the best and most consistant bench scorer for the last five seasons. Voshon Lenard was the only scorer for the Raptors last year, averaging over 20ppg, I think, and Earl Boykins was arguably the second best player on the Warriors last year. Toss in Marcus Camby, Rodney White, and, of course, Melo's output, and you have a much better team of scorers than Detroit's primary bunch of Billups, Hamilton, and Williamson.
I'd say Boykins was tied for 3rd or was 4th best, Jamison and Arenas are better scorers, JRich is good but i dunno if he was better than Boykins last year, he played more minutes so who knows. And yes like i've said a few times Jon Barry can score and whatever bench he is on seems to always do good. Voshon averaged about 14 last year not 20.
What happened to Micheal Bradley, when we took him over Randolph I was pretty angry but then lat year he showed flashes and now got injured. He'll prolly get a chance on some other team, and yea Bosh is sick.
Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:32 am
man i luv this discussion 
.
I just like to say this, you both have valid points but i gotta give ben the edge imho, because i agree with him on the point that the pistons might be better with melo(i dont think he really denies that but u just cant be sure), but they still wouldnt be a contender, yeah a contender in the east final, but there is no way in hell an eastern conference team(accept maybe indiana for the moment) that stands a chance vs a western conference team, so what would detroit have in the end if it would take melo and gets the next three years to the finals, okay thats cool for the fans and all but they still wouldnt go all the way.
While by taking Milicic and gambling on the player he might become in 3 to 5 years, they would have a real chance of going all the way then(though big ben aint gonna be the same player then, but billups and rip would still form one of the better back courts, assuming dumars doesnt replace them too ). Unless of curz when shaq retires the Ming Dynasty begins
.
I just like to say this, you both have valid points but i gotta give ben the edge imho, because i agree with him on the point that the pistons might be better with melo(i dont think he really denies that but u just cant be sure), but they still wouldnt be a contender, yeah a contender in the east final, but there is no way in hell an eastern conference team(accept maybe indiana for the moment) that stands a chance vs a western conference team, so what would detroit have in the end if it would take melo and gets the next three years to the finals, okay thats cool for the fans and all but they still wouldnt go all the way.
While by taking Milicic and gambling on the player he might become in 3 to 5 years, they would have a real chance of going all the way then(though big ben aint gonna be the same player then, but billups and rip would still form one of the better back courts, assuming dumars doesnt replace them too
). Unless of curz when shaq retires the Ming Dynasty begins
Mon Dec 29, 2003 8:23 am
Yea but i still don't think he has the coring ability of Melo, I know he can score but i don't see him as a guy you can constantly go to.
Well, Prince WAS the go-to-guy for Kentucky, but I agree with you. He could probably be the go-to-guy on a mediocre team, or at least a valid second option in a place like say, Orlando.
I'd say Boykins was tied for 3rd or was 4th best, Jamison and Arenas are better scorers, JRich is good but i dunno if he was better than Boykins last year, he played more minutes so who knows. And yes like i've said a few times Jon Barry can score and whatever bench he is on seems to always do good. Voshon averaged about 14 last year not 20.
For some reason I forgot about Arenas...then again, it was like 3:30 am when I made the post...the 20ppg for Voshon was just a guess on my part, I didn't see many Raptors games, and I just remember him getting 20+ ppg when Carter was out towards the end of the year. I figured he was averaging almost 20...
And I have no idea what happened to Bradley. Apparently O'neal doesn't like him...I don't think he plays defense all that well.
Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:02 pm
well Bradley was injured but i thought he would be healed by now.....guess not, they don't even talk about him anymore
Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:09 pm
fgrep15 wrote:well Bradley was injured but i thought he would be healed by now.....guess not, they don't even talk about him anymore
Bradley is out for the entire season,I dunno what happend to him...damn I hoped to see him falling into Laker fan coke again,he sniffed his hand last time...mad funny!
Mon Dec 29, 2003 5:01 pm
Well I am hearing now that he will be traded to Washington for Brendan Haywood
He's also scheduled to return in a month so he's not out for the season
He's also scheduled to return in a month so he's not out for the season
Last edited by fgrep15 on Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:53 am
Darco´s fav is BUSTa rhymes.
Well darco miilits isn´t a bust he is BUST.
LOL,he is 213 cm he is wide open and he missed that dunk-MAN.
How is that possible.?
Well darco miilits isn´t a bust he is BUST.
LOL,he is 213 cm he is wide open and he missed that dunk-MAN.
How is that possible.?
Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:11 am
the guy was nervous, i laughed for almost 5mins after that, but that still doesn't mean he can't become good, i saw zach randolph miss an open dunk and tmac and qyntel woods miss open layups
Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:14 am
Darco´s fav is BUSTa rhymes.
Well darco miilits isn´t a bust he is BUST.
LOL,he is 213 cm he is wide open and he missed that dunk-MAN.
How is that possible.?
But you forgot, Carmelo Anthony sux! Darko pwns!
Tue Dec 30, 2003 2:31 pm
Mr. Shane wrote:And I have no idea what happened to Bradley. Apparently O'neal doesn't like him...I don't think he plays defense all that well.
Bradley is still injured though he should be back within the next few weeks I believe.