This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....

[Dee4Three]

Yes, it matters in hypothetical debates.

with less babying.

I do not welcome this kind of wild claims. Jordan was a poster boy for league's favoritism.




This is my last post for the thread, too tired too old. Wish benji was here.

Well, thanks for the good times.

[NovU]

The fact that you said "What is the purpose of the skillset" is a little alarming to me.....

It is to create a shot opportunity......

What is so alarming about that?



Sorry but I am really done here.

[Dee4Three]

No worries. Thanks for hanging around as long as you did.

[air gordon]

phpBB [video]

just thinking out loud- isn't korver the all time best % 3pt shooter?

are you basing your judgement of james career on this season/finals (past his prime) or just criticizing his play in these finals? the lines seemed blurred.

you were earlier comparing how mj could guard perimeter players better than james, who you said could better guard pf/c. did you forget that james in his prime was able to shut down derrick rose in his athletic prime (much to my dismay) in the playoffs? in jordan's athletic prime, it was scottie pippen, not MJ, guarding magic johnson

[zz21]

Going back to the first page, did that person confuse jump shooting with 3pt shooting?

Not sure how you can call someone with a career 56.9% True Shooting percentage (especially when they aren't an athletic big that only dunks and ruins fg% stats *Cough* DeAndre) a bad shooter in any sense.

[Dee4Three]

Going back to the first page, did that person confuse jump shooting with 3pt shooting?

Not sure how you can call someone with a career 56.9% True Shooting percentage (especially when they aren't an athletic big that only dunks and ruins fg% stats *Cough* DeAndre) a bad shooter in any sense.

I was thinking the same thing, but even more comments on that thread supported that they were saying he was a shitty shooter in general.

[Dee4Three]

phpBB [video]

just thinking out loud- isn't korver the all time best % 3pt shooter?

are you basing your judgement of james career on this season/finals (past his prime) or just criticizing his play in these finals? the lines seemed blurred.

you were earlier comparing how mj could guard perimeter players better than james, who you said could better guard pf/c. did you forget that james in his prime was able to shut down derrick rose in his athletic prime (much to my dismay) in the playoffs? in jordan's athletic prime, it was scottie pippen, not MJ, guarding magic johnson

An 8 foot jumper that could be relied on with that skillset and confidence absolutely would have been a better shot. I take Jordan with that pull up any day over a corner three.

I am basing it off of Lebrons history of vanishing.

Are you also saying that a player's skill set doesn't matter?

In regards to defense, I see Jordan as quicker laterally, lower, with better hands. I didn't say that Lebron should always guard the other teams best player. I said that Jordan to me is a better perimeter defender.

In regards to Rose, that's a hell of a job stopping the prime Rose.

[air gordon]

jordan could have easily pulled up on a lot of those kickouts to paxson, bj, kerr, etc, no? were those paxson jump shots in the 4th in game 6 of the finals vs lakers bad shots and jordan instead should have contorted to the basket or pull up?

i don't know what this lovers quarrel is with you, novu, and skillset. lo siento.

too bad james doesn't have a failure commerical

[Dee4Three]

jordan could have easily pulled up on a lot of those kickouts to paxson, bj, kerr, etc, no? were those paxson jump shots in the 4th in game 6 of the finals vs lakers bad shots and jordan instead should have contorted to the basket or pull up?

i don't know what this lovers quarrel is with you, novu, and skillset. lo siento.

too bad james doesn't have a failure commerical

You HAD to worry about Jordan pulling up. You had to worry about where Jordan was at all times. Did Jordan take 1 shot in a 4th quarter in a finals game? Or did he have his foot on the gas and stay aggressive? Did he vanish?

To say that skillsets don't matter... what?

Jordan kicked it out, but he also showed he could finish in the big moments with his scoring prowess, he didn't hide from the spotlight.

[air gordon]

ok skillset matter.

is there a big discrepancy in big moments of "showing"/finishing vs not showing for james? how many times did mj said he missed a shot?

[Dee4Three]

No, I'm not just talking about final shots, I'm talking about big games, and when you need a basket, or even when you just need a basket in general.

You havn't answered my question, are you also stating that skillset doesn't matter?

Furthermore, is there ever a posession in your mind that you would rather have the ball in LeBron's hands over Jordan?

When you look at what both players can do, would you agree that Jordan has a much bigger offensive repetoire?

[Sauru]

i am only here for shadowgrin

[shadowgrin]

Love you too you senile old bastard.
I forgot about your stance on Celtic legend Antoine Walker, the man who shot ridiculous 4-pointers even before Curry showed the world the beauty of taking such shots.
'toine was truly ahead of his time, unfortunately like most visionaries his genius wasn't appreciated or even accepted during his time.

[zz21]

If you put Jordan's mind in LeBron's body you'd get the perfect player.

LeBron forgets sometimes not only is he one of the fastest players in the league, he also outweighs everyone by 30 pounds. If you gave him Jordan's post talent, mid range ability, and supreme confidence, that would be ridiculous.

LeMichael Jordames is the greatest confirmed.

Edit: Also his ability to make free throws with any sort of consistency.

[Sauru]

i honestly feel like walker would excel in todays nba. i mean he would at least be good enough to come in second place to the warriors

[air gordon]

dee,
look above your post. it is answered.

jordan!
jordan!
jordan!

are you trying to convince a bulls fan to pick jordan or shall we do more cartwheels?

[NovU]

LoL, skillset don't matter. Is that what my posts really implied here?


This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....
suiting title to the thread indeed

[debiler]

If you put Jordan's mind in LeBron's body you'd get the perfect player.

True. While Jordan did pretty amazing things with the body he was given, imagine LeBron with Michael's mindset. An unstoppable juggernaut you'd have to double-, even triple-team to stop.

Edit: Geez, is that how you people rack up those ridiculous post counts? I've been around since 2002, and I'm barely scractching the 1,000 mark. Getting there, though...

[Sauru]

i would argue that lebrons body with birds mind would be the most unstoppable player imaginable

[debiler]

i would argue that lebrons body with birds mind would be the most unstoppable player imaginable

Of course you would.

[Dee4Three]

LoL, skillset don't matter. Is that what my posts really implied here?


This is why I have little to no faith in the younger crowd....
suiting title to the thread indeed

Yes, right here.

However, if I misunderstood what you were getting at I apologize. That could be my fault.

Why the hell is it important? What is the purpose of the skillset?

The purpose of the skillset is that it gives players more options to attack with, just like if you have great hands and great timing, those are two skillsets. For example, the purpose of having more sets of skills: Your team needs to rely on you to get baskets, and you have 7 or 8 different ways to get those baskets, instead of 2 or 3. Its the reason why you see certain players not attack, or vanish, because they can't get the job done because they don't have enough skill to rely on, especially in the big moments when defense is truly locked in. And clearly the mental aspect plays a big part.

Postby zzcoolj21 on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:20 pm

LeBron forgets sometimes not only is he one of the fastest players in the league, he also outweighs everyone by 30 pounds. If you gave him Jordan's post talent, mid range ability, and supreme confidence, that would be ridiculous.

Exactly. Jordans number of skillsets, and how good he is at them, are far superior in general. While Jordan is elite in these things, LeBron is below average or average. Jordan was also an elite defender, so even if you call LeBron an elite defender (which I don't), Jordan on offense completely blows away LeBron. Which is why you can't even compare the two, as basketball players it's not even close.

Postby Sauru on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:21 pm

i honestly feel like walker would excel in todays nba. i mean he would at least be good enough to come in second place to the warriors

I actually loved Antoine with the Celtics, even though he was a bit of a chucker. He was a really good position rebounder, and he would just find a way to get points, also a good passer. I think a primed Antoine in this NBA would fit right in.

Postby air gordon on Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:40 pm

dee,
look above your post. it is answered.

jordan!
jordan!
jordan!

are you trying to convince a bulls fan to pick jordan or shall we do more cartwheels?

YES! YELL IT! SCREAM IT!

But seriously, it's a no brainer, it doesn't even need to be thought about. In any situation, Jordan is who you want on your team, or with the ball. In any fantasy draft, you take Jordan first. Why would you want Jordan with the ball 100% of the time over LeBron? Because his skillset, footwork, body control etc far exceed's his on offense. In any decade, you take Jordan. Do you have any idea what a primed Jordan would do to these guys in the league today? with these rules and what he could do?

by Sauru on Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:34 am

i would argue that lebrons body with birds mind would be the most unstoppable player imaginable

Another great point. Larry Birds fire, his competitiveness and confidence, to go along with his position rebounding, and ability to shoot from anywhere on the floor (Inluding having a good post game)... put Larry Bird in LeBrons body with Larry's skill level and mind, what a freak he would be. Larry Bird is a far more skilled basketball player than LeBron James, but with less athleticism.


People like Nick Wright are hired by Fox Sports, and make more money than any of us here... for spewing absolute trash. Even making comments like "What is Jordan better at than LeBron James, nothing", and "Outside of championships, you can't make an argument for Jordan". How is that man, working for Fox Sports? oh wait... because he is a loudmouth like Skip Bayless and Stephen A Smith who can create controversy and brainwash people, that must be it. How has nobody pointed out these things we mention to Nick Wright on tv? Oh yeah... because it's all controlled in order to make something more relevant than it really is. Why is Tom Haberstroh working for ESPN, and can write an article stating that LeBron should be finals MVP, but completely leave out that he shot sub 40% from the floor in the second half of games 1 through 4, and made key mistakes down the stretch while playing questionable defense? oh yeah... because it's a way to provoke a reaction, while making something more relevant than it is, by lying......

Anybody else see the pattern? None of these guys put the actual facts out there, none of them. This is exactly why those who don't know any better, get on comment sections stating that Jordan is a shitty jump shooter. Because of the Nick Wrights, Tom Haberstrohs, etc.

[NovU]

Why the hell is it important? What is the purpose of the skillset?

The purpose of the skillset is that it gives players more options to attack with, just like if you have great hands and great timing, those are two skillsets.

This all basically leads "TO CREATE A SHOT ATTEMPT". Your coherency skill seems to have a problem if you in any way thought what I said implied skillset don't matter. Player 'A' can have only 1 skill but can be much more valuable than a player 'B' with 100 mediocre skills if the team can play to strength of player 'A'. It is not the quantity of skillset but quality at the end of the day. Even with limited number of skillset, teams were able to use LBJ to generate shit load of points at exceptional points per possession rate. Your so called better players even with much better skillset, they sucked much more than LBJ big time. Many of them as you claim had more options to create shot attempts but teams couldn't even have them take more shots than LBJ with limited skillset. This is where eye test and brain fails altogether.

For example, the purpose of having more sets of skills: Your team needs to rely on you to get baskets, and you have 7 or 8 different ways to get those baskets, instead of 2 or 3. Its the reason why you see certain players not attack, or vanish, because they can't get the job done because they don't have enough skill to rely on, especially in the big moments when defense is truly locked in. And clearly the mental aspect plays a big part.

I will give you that your criticism is valid just not to extent where you can justify your LBJ hate you've been spewing here. I'd say this really displays your lack of understanding in game of basketball. You just don't see the bigger picture.

Basketball game is played for 48 minutes. Every minute counts not only the final few minutes. It's about positioning your team in a better position to win a game. If one player can play exceptionally well through first 3 quarters, your team is in better position to win a game. It's not for some unexplainable reasons why LBJ's team won shit tons of games even to compare to other greats and constantly get to the big stage.

I will also show you how you like to throw big words around, pretending to know anything about its meaning just like Skip Clueless and his peers. Your definition of "BIG MOMENTS" means nothing in good constructive discussions because it's extremely subjective and selective to your memory and wants. It's just not a concrete and good argument. That is why your argument convinces hardly anyone. There are 12 games to be won before getting to the Finals. Each game, each series, each performance matters. Without that, there is no Finals. How many greats you listed better than LBJ couldn't step up in those moments/games/series and lost before the Finals for how many fucking seasons? LBJ has been a great playoffs performer. LBJ in fact has been a stellar 4th quarter performer. LBJ in fact has been a great elimination game performer. LBJ in fact has been a great final minutes performer. Could you explain LeBron James single-handedly beating the superior Pistons team and why that wasn't the "BIG MOMENT"? Finals is only a few games(not to discount valid LBJ criticism on that stage). Due to your narrow vision, your thinking's already done and fail to draw the big picture. All your greats failed to step up in big moments, LBJ overcame many more hence the more showings at big stage.

[Dee4Three]

Why the hell is it important? What is the purpose of the skillset?

The purpose of the skillset is that it gives players more options to attack with, just like if you have great hands and great timing, those are two skillsets.

This all basically leads "TO CREATE A SHOT ATTEMPT". Your coherency skill seems to have a problem if you in any way thought what I said implied skillset don't matter. Player 'A' can have only 1 skill but can be much more valuable than a player 'B' with 100 mediocre skills if the team can play to strength of player 'A'. It is not the quantity of skillset but quality at the end of the day. Even with limited number of skillset, teams were able to use LBJ to generate shit load of points at exceptional points per possession rate. Your so called better players even with much better skillset, they sucked much more than LBJ big time. Many of them as you claim had more options to create shot attempts but teams couldn't even have them take more shots than LBJ with limited skillset. This is where eye test and brain fails altogether.

For example, the purpose of having more sets of skills: Your team needs to rely on you to get baskets, and you have 7 or 8 different ways to get those baskets, instead of 2 or 3. Its the reason why you see certain players not attack, or vanish, because they can't get the job done because they don't have enough skill to rely on, especially in the big moments when defense is truly locked in. And clearly the mental aspect plays a big part.

I will give you that your criticism is valid just not to extent where you can justify your LBJ hate you've been spewing here. I'd say this really displays your lack of understanding in game of basketball. You just don't see the bigger picture.

Basketball game is played for 48 minutes. Every minute counts not only the final few minutes. It's about positioning your team in a better position to win a game. If one player can play exceptionally well through first 3 quarters, your team is in better position to win a game. It's not for some unexplainable reasons why LBJ's team won shit tons of games even to compare to other greats and constantly get to the big stage.

I will also show you how you like to throw big words around, pretending to know anything about its meaning just like Skip Clueless and his peers. Your definition of "BIG MOMENTS" means nothing in good constructive discussions because it's extremely subjective and selective to your memory and wants. It's just not a concrete and good argument. That is why your argument convinces hardly anyone. There are 12 games to be won before getting to the Finals. Each game, each series, each performance matters. Without that, there is no Finals. How many greats you listed better than LBJ couldn't step up in those moments/games/series and lost before the Finals for how many fucking seasons? LBJ has been a great playoffs performer. LBJ in fact has been a stellar 4th quarter performer. LBJ in fact has been a great elimination game performer. LBJ in fact has been a great final minutes performer. Could you explain LeBron James single-handedly beating the superior Pistons team and why that wasn't the "BIG MOMENT"? Finals is only a few games(not to discount valid LBJ criticism on that stage). Due to your narrow vision, your thinking's already done and fail to draw the big picture. All your greats failed to step up in big moments, LBJ overcame many more hence the more showings at big stage.

I'll give you that I didn't expand enough, LeBron has not vanished in all big moments. But, he vanishes in them more often than not, and it's other players who need to attack in those moments. When I say vanish, I'm not saying "He missed the big shot", or "He tried to attack and failed", I am saying he is not an aggressor, more often than not he doesnt attack, he doesn't take the big shots, he seems to not be as aggressive in the second half of games, he doesn't seem have the confidence or mental game to do it. I am not talking about just buzzer shots, I am talking about baskets in games when your team needs them when defense is locked in. I define big momentsas when your team needs a bucket, needs an aggressor, when the defense is tight and a player needs to make a big play with the ball. A player can stat pad like no tomorrow (Hello Rajon Rondo), but not get it done when it matters most, when the mental game/skill level really needs to come together to get the job done. LeBron is not a GREAT finals performer, not only is he 3 out of 8 in the finals with a ton of talent on his team, but he has disappeared in the second half of two of the finals now (Mavericks and Warriors), and has needed the big shots made by other players, those players making the plays.

I am not having narrow vision, NovU. I am looking at the big picture. Also, I havn't been throwing big words around.. what?

As a BASKETBALL PLAYER, you put LeBron's skills in Larry Birds body and keep LeBrons mind, he is an average NBA player. I truly believe that. LeBron doesn't play with the sense of urgency, fire, mental toughness as these guys. I don't think he should be in the same discussion.

Have you taken a look around the league the last 8 years or so? Have you seen how many BAD TEAMS there are? The EAST specifically? If you stack your team in the EAST multiple tImes, you WILL have that many finals appearances. If you take one of the best players in the west, and pair him one of the best guards in the EAST, and you yourself are a star, and you are in a Eastern Conference with no team even close to that, you will make the finals more often than not. If you Join the best SG in the EAST, pair him with one of the best power forwards in the East, and you yourself are a star, and you are in the east, and all of you are in your prime, you will make more finals than not in the EAST. do people not realize the east is weak because Lebron gathers up a lot of the best players from the east?. seldom do people address the shortcutting he does. Jordan's team was homegrown with Pippen and him growing together, when Rodman was acquired it was a huge question mark, they weren't even sure he would fit in. Jordan didn't create a super team, he was great with a homegrown team (Have you looked at his first 3 championships roster? it is the furthest thing from stacked).


The talent discrepancy is apparent in the league today. And my point is, I don't think anybody on here would rather have the ball in LeBron's hands over Jordan or Bird, if you would, please tell me why.


These are my opinions on players who are being discussed the most, obviously you folks won't agree with all of them. But it's what I believe.

LeBron James:

3pt shooting: Average
Mid range game: Average or below
Post game: Average or below
Ball handling: Good
Body Control: Average
Footwork: Average
Finishing at the hoop: Great
Passing: Great
Rebounding: Good
Defense: Good (when he wants to)
Athleticism: Elite
Strength: Elite
Mental Game: Good

Michael Jordan:

3pt shooting: Average or below
Mid Range Game: Elite
Post Game: Elite
Ball Handling: Good
Body Control: Elite
Footwork: Elite
Finishing at the hoop: Elite
Passing: Good
Rebounding: Good
Defense: Elite
Athleticism: Elite
Strength: Great (Some say he was elite)
Mental Game: Elite

Larry Bird:

3pt shooting: Good
Mid Range Game: Elite
Post Game: Great
Ball Handling: Average
Body Control: Good
Footwork: Great
Finishing at the hoop: Good
Passing: Great
Rebounding: Great
Defense: Good
Athleticism: Average
Strength: Good
Mental Game: Elite

[Dee4Three]

I do want to point out that I think Jordan's finals record would be 6 out of 7 if he played in 93-94. I think Olajuwon would have been too much for the Bulls. Jordan played in 94-95, and didn't seem rusty to me. I think they still would lost that series to Orlando.

I think the 96-97 Rockets would have been a harder matchup for the Bulls if they had gotten passed the Jazz.

[Jeffx]

i would argue that lebrons body with birds mind would be the most unstoppable player imaginable

Correction: Bill Russell's mind. No one had a higher basketball IQ than him.