HAWK23 wrote:GritterAndGrinder wrote:Andrew wrote:Good work on the release! Just a reminder, anything under 100 MB can be uploaded directly to our Downloads section for safekeeping; we don't delete files unless there's an issue with them, or the author requests it. We can (and have) lost great updates that were hosted externally, so we're all for preserving files as much as we can. Any questions about our upload facilities, just let me know.GritterAndGrinder wrote:And quite frankly this whole nonsense has pissed me off quite a bit. If files are made free to begin with, who gives a damn about giving credit for them? I don't make these for the glory and honor of a bunch of computer gaming junkies like myself, who will never know my real name nor see my face. I make them so there's more content out there for people to enjoy even more the game we all love. Honestly don't care who's work went into UBR. I like the mod, so i play it. that's all i know. If anyone wants to take my roster and make changes to it and post it, I couldn't care less if you credit me. I just want to post it so maybe someone will get enjoyment from playing it or a later incarnation of it. ok?
I don't want to derail the thread, but you ask a fair question and I do believe in answering that question honestly whenever it comes up is in the best interest of the community.
Since the early days of our patching community, giving credit and asking permission to re-use or modify someone else's work has just been the done thing, in order to keep things friendly, respectful, and so on. It's become a contentious issue at times, because some people have insisted on re-releasing other people's work without asking, or at the very least, mentioning who and where it came from. Although there's no legal leg to stand on - modding is something that Visual Concepts or EA Sports could shut down with a cease-and-desist, if they wanted to (but fortunately they don't seem to want to) - it instead comes down to a self-regulating code of honour and etiquette.
It's disheartening to see something you've spent a lot of time on re-released by someone else, especially when they're directly or indirectly claiming it as their own work, without any acknowledgement. There is some ego involved in that, of course - as someone who was reluctant to let other patchers use my NBA Live rosters as a base for years, I'll freely admit that - but it remains an understandable position, especially in cases where no courtesy is shown to the original author.
Note that I'm not saying you're doing that, in fact you're doing quite the opposite and taking a respectful approach with everything. I'm just trying to explain why it's been an issue for us in the past, and why it's a sensitive matter for some modders.
We have been encouraging people to adopt a more open source approach and share their work, but it's a big philosophical shift and it's not something that we can (or intend to) enforce as a rule. The situation with UBR obviously works out quite well, as most people have the assets pre-installed, saving everyone time and multiple big downloads. It's one of those things where we'll make our recommendations, recognise everyone's right to decline permission, and make sure that credit is given when it's due and whenever possible (as patchers do leave the community and are sometimes difficult to get a hold of, years later), but everything is handled on a case-by-case basis, because some people are more comfortable with their work being redistributed than others. As such, we support both stances, because people do have different feelings about the matter and very valid reasons for feeling the way that they do.
Anyway, I hope that clears a few things up. I'm certainly happy to answer any further questions and provide clarification if need be. Like I said, it's been a bit of a touchy issue through the years, with certain incidents shaping our respective feelings toward the situation.
Thank you for that explanation. I understand the stance that UBR takes, I just personally don't share it. If anyone ever wanted to use my work, I wouldnt care if I was credited. It's just my personal feelings toward my work and why i do it. Like I said, I understand why one would not want their work being passed off as someone elses, and realize there are people out there that go further and not only dont credit the original creator but actually claim outright that it is all their original work. That being said, the thing that really pissed me off was that i specifically said in my original post that the mod included a roster, settings, and jukebox all of my own design and a ball, which i didnt know who to credit for, but made a point to say it was not mine to take credit for. And with all of that, and me saying that you needed to already have UBR downloaded, i felt like i was straightup accused of doing something i didnt do, and said i wasnt doing, and if time had been taken to read my original post, the discussion that took place, overshadowing the real topic of the thread, would have never come about. Quite frankly it made no sense for me to upload 30 gigs of data, when most everyone already has it, anyways. It just greatly annoyed me that peopl couldnt just read and use common sense to realize I was in no way passing off others' work as my own.
For the record, my long response was directed solely towards Maestrio and not you. I never once typed the word "stealing" because, I agree, that's a ridiculous statement for anyone to make, because technically every modder is "stealing" from 2K when they make their own adjustments to the files. I actually believe the UBR team has helped to "break the mold" of individual patching and has made it more into a team/community effort - there are some specific reasons why I don't like large portions of the UBR files being stuffed into additional download packages (which I thought you were possibly thinking about doing) that I'll type out and explain at the end of this post.
I also never once intended for YOU to get any heat, only to understand that it would make the most sense to let the UBR be a stand alone download that should be downloaded in addition to whatever you were creating. If it came across differently to you then I apologize, the main source of my frustration was with the other poster whom has been a thorn in my side for many months now posting inappropriate and untrue comments. I obviously saw that you mentioned the UBR in your original post, but the reason for me typing my first post to you was because you made it seem like you had a "large download" you needed to upload and I assumed that meant using large portions of files from the UBR (since roster files and settings files are extremely small). I'm all about people contributing or enhancing the UBR experience. The main thing is I don't want tons of people messaging me about issues or problems they have that are associated with other UBR-related projects that I have no knowledge of (which happens quite frequently) because then I end up wasting my own time trying to figure out what the hell it is they are even talking about. I also don't like multiple people hosting large amounts of UBR files because they get updated constantly and I don't want older versions of download links out there. Again, all of this is moot because you're doing it the right way by having people download UBR first, then download your creation - I just wanted to be clear for anyone in the future, and I wanted you to know that the main source of my frustration did not come from you or your project.
This is the last comment I'll be making in your thread in regards to this topic. Any others I make will be about your actual project!
thanks for clearing that up. i now understand why you would think i was possibly releasing ubr files considering it took me a while to post the download. and yeah, that guy did appear to be a troll.