2k15 cheese

[centrifugal]

I've read by some people here about how much they love the gameplay of 2k15 because
- "playing defense is now challenging"
- "you can't just press one button and play defense"
- "defense right now is like in real life, you have no idea where the guard will drive, so you have to guess"
- "the AI is better than it's ever been"

I don't want to bother to find the exact quotes in all the threads, so excuse me if I don't use the quote button or if I don't know exactly who said it. I personally think it's all bull*. The AI is none the wiser, it keeps on spamming contested attempts and doesn't really care. And this afternoon I just about had enough to make the effort to start recording the CPU's cheese attempts. I was playing a game against Blazers (me being the Spurs) and I was losing by a margin of about 10 points. As I made a couple of steals and brought the game closer to 6 points, Lillard made a 3-point contested shot close to the middle of the court, after busting my ass in defense so that the CPU couldn't get a chance to make an easy score...the shot was at the last second of the offense.

Anyway I watched it on replay a couple of times, pondering whether I should record it or not, deciding that people online might say it's a one time-thing, it could happen etc. And then after a couple of minutes this happened:

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And I just had about enough. Seriously, the proponents of 2k15... what could have I done differently (for those who didn't get it, I'm controlling Green) so that he'd miss that shot?

In a normal non-cheesy game, I'd accept any of the following results to take place after that defense :

a) Block
b) Missed shot
c) Foul

But he shoots with the hand closer to the defense, with Green (one of the best defenders in the league) hanging from his nuts, in a fade away shot and he just scores. Mind you, not after some well orchestrated play, but rather after a spam attempt to get closer to the basket after a half-assed pick and roll attempt. Really?

From now on I'll be posting videos showing the CPU cheesing during offense, because defense this year is non-existent.

Bighort said to me in another thread that I should fix the sliders, and he suggested that I shouldn't play on HOF. I played 2k14 in HOF, simulation sliders and shit like this never took place. That would have been a block or a missed shot in 2k14.

[bigh0rt]

This video is private.

[jaycee10]

Dude video is private right now?

[centrifugal]

Can you check again now?

[bigh0rt]

Can you check again now?

Works.

Your complaint is, "The CPU hits shots they shouldn't hit", correct? If so, have you adjusted, at all, any of the CPU Sliders for shooting? If not, then I can't imagine many are going to want to hear the complaints -- you're complaining about something in which you, yourself, hold a very powerful tool in changing. You're simply choosing to actively not change it. If your complaint is, "that should have been blocked", then go tweak the Block Slider and see how that changes things. You hold the power. Now, if you've done substantial changes there, and things still arise, then you can start talking about an issue with 'the game'. Until then, you're just complaining about the out of the box game, which next to nobody actually plays (PC users, at the very least). Put User Block up to 100, then work your way down until you feel it's fair and reasonable. Dump CPU Short or Contested or whatever Success way way down, and bump it up gradually until you feel it's reasonable. This is how competent and useful Slider sets are made. I've never played a 2K with default Sliders that was anything short of laughable after a good amount of play. That's the beauty of actually having the Sliders as an option. The video you posted isn't 'cheese'. Show me the CPU doing that on 5 straight drives, becoming superhuman, while your players can't connect on simple passes that they otherwise would 99% of the time. That's cheese. And 2K, historically, has had it. Especially on the higher difficulties, which is why the best Slider sets over the past several years have all been based on Pro, and occasioally All-Star... More on that below...

Furthermore, every word I said about the past 3+ years of Sliders being based around Pro and/or All-Star is 100% fact. It is known fact that on HoF, there is an actual rating adjustment for both User and CPU (I don't know if this is the case for 2K15, but prior to it was fact), so to counter that, Sliders were generally based off of Pro, and occasionally All-Star. The beauty of it is, through Slider tweaking, you can make the Pro setting 'harder' than the Hall of Fame setting -- without having to deal with a lot of the cheese that we have grown accustomed to at the Hall of Fame difficulty. I can only imagine that this is, as well, the case in 2K15. If you want, please by all means search back through the 2K14 and 2K13 forums, since you're new here, and see that I'm not making this up. It's well-known over at Operation Sports, as well.

2K15 is far from a perfect game, but if you've yet to take even the first step towards fixing what you're able to on your end, nobody's going to want to hear it. You can, yourself, create a VERY different game, with the options that are available. Give it a shot.

[centrifugal]

Bighort,

first of all thank you for the elaborate answer. My problem with your suggestion is two-fold:

1. I've tried tweaking the sliders
2. CPU cheesing is not isolated only on making contested shots.

Tweaking the sliders: I'm having a very difficult time finding a balance between a challenging game and the CPU not having god-like abilities. At the moment my sliders are:

On Ball D: 60
Blocking: 60
Defensive Awareness: 60
Contact Shot Success: 40

If I raise the first three values or lower the last one I find myself winning most games without much of a challenge. If I do the opposite I find myself losing most games through cheesy attempts like the one I posted. I've been spending more time with sliders than I've ever done with a 2k game before. And I can't come up with a good balance. As I said I was playing 2k14 on HOF with sim sliders and I found them to be excellent and just.

2. My problem as I said is not only concerned with the CPU making contested shots. There are other instances where the game logic is just unrealistic or doesn't let me get control of my player on purpose. I will post these on video in the following days. You have to bear with me a little because my connection is horrible.

I'm under the impression that the CPU is not all that concerned with finding an open shot. Yes the CPU does make certain plays but its offense usually ends with 3 ways:

a) drive through the defender and stop for a jump shot before help defense comes
b) rebound after a missed shot and shoot again in the post
c) pass the ball to a shooter after a screen and shoot (regardless whether the defense have cought up with them or not)

Most picks don't really work (as shown in the video), and screens away from the ball are quite useless since the passes are too slow and defense usually manages to catch up to the shooter.

[JWL3]

bigh0rt's advice is very useful. I, myself, don't tweak the sliders because in my mind, it's kinda like cheating. (stupid, yeah) I've played all the 2k games (since 2k9) on default sliders unless something absolutely drives me nuts. And I've had instances in the game where the cpu hits a retarded shot leaving me scratching my head. (the game definitely has shot clock cheese). Team Momentum is still a factor in this game and unfortunately can determine outcomes (you miss a wide open 3, cpu makes a contested 2, 5 point turnaround). If only 2k can make a slider for Team Momentum, it would be awesome.

[Lakerfan79]

i dont have any of these issues pro on sim is perfect for me i shoot a high % but not an unrealistically high it just feels like my player is lebron thats all makes the game reasonably challenging without being frustrating. Players make shots like that maybe once every 20 -30 games for me i like this years difficulty it feels the most realistic ive seen in a long time. still some stupid things happen like my teammates tend to be out of position and suck at protecting the rim or just lose track of their man, it seems like all my teammates have james harden moments even the best like jimmy butler and noah just zone out

and in response to that video, go watch kobe he makes crazy shots every game that make you scratch your head, at least he used to idk how he will this year but yea shots like that happen, on a fairly regular basis its part luck part skill, and its not just kobe who makes those shots even no name players make crazy shots its part of the game stop complaining.
You played good D and the player just made the shot. Accept it i played basketball (in high school about 4 years ago) and sometimes you D up perfectly and he still makes a tough shot u just give him props. Modern basketball will always favor the offensive player.

[bigh0rt]

centrifugal, try and tweak the sliders on Pro or All-Star. See if that helps. Maybe within the roster, even force a team to Run Plays at 100 in the Coach Profile, etc. and see if that helps at all.

[KobeBean]

phpBB [video]

What could Phoenix Suns (Grant Hill) do more than they did to stop that shot from going in, nothing, difficult shots sometimes go on in, deal with it, you played great defense there and he scored, it happens, if it would never happen that would be unrealistic.

[Call_M3_Mr-T]

@KobeBean Yeah but Kobe isn't going to hit that 8 out of 10 times.. His point isn't that they shouldn't make tough shots but rather that they make tough shots too often..

[centrifugal]

phpBB [video]

What could Phoenix Suns (Grant Hill) do more than they did to stop that shot from going in, nothing, difficult shots sometimes go on in, deal with it, you played great defense there and he scored, it happens, if it would never happen that would be unrealistic.

The obvious and expected "Kobe/Lebron/MJ did it" reply... I thought of addressing it in my original post but I didn't bother. Anyway, here's my reply to that:

I'd be ok if 4 or 5 superstars could do that some times during the league. I'd also be ok if the CPU had used the hand away from the defense to shoot, like Kobe does in that famous battle against the Suns. As Call_M3_Mr-T said in his post, I'm not saying these shots should never be made...I'm saying these shots should be seldom made. It should be a rare occurence. As I've said in my original post, a little earlier Lillard had made a contested shot near the center of the court. That was the second time withing a couple of minutes the AI cheesed, that's why I recorded it.

[JWL3]

Is anyone else averaging 7 turnovers a game? The cpu cheese gives the big guy on a pick and roll superhuman defensive abilities. He just puts his hands up and whatever pass you thought you had to your big is immediately deflected and stolen. Extremely annoying when you see a pass that's open and when you press pass, 3 guys converge on it. WTF dude? Sliders aren't going to fix this one. If you turn down cpu steals, it doesn't delay their reaction time, it just lets the ball go through their hands more often, which is also bs.

As a PG, my passing game is utterly useless in MyCareer so far. Does this get better when you're a better passer? I'm 81 in passing now.

[JWL3]

Oh and Team momentum is alive and well here. Other team goes on an 8-0 run, which includes a fade away 3 with my hand in the guys jockstrap. Miss 2 layups (slightly challenged) in the process. I call a time out, and then immediately, my guy hits a contested layup in the paint. C'mon dude.

[bigh0rt]

Is anyone else averaging 7 turnovers a game? The cpu cheese gives the big guy on a pick and roll superhuman defensive abilities. He just puts his hands up and whatever pass you thought you had to your big is immediately deflected and stolen. Extremely annoying when you see a pass that's open and when you press pass, 3 guys converge on it. WTF dude? Sliders aren't going to fix this one. If you turn down cpu steals, it doesn't delay their reaction time, it just lets the ball go through their hands more often, which is also bs.

As a PG, my passing game is utterly useless in MyCareer so far. Does this get better when you're a better passer? I'm 81 in passing now.

Sliders can certainly help this (I think). I'm at work, so I don't remember the exact name, but turn down CPU Slider for 'Play Passing Lanes' or whatever is closest to that, referring to passing lanes. It's all the way down in Tendencies. It should be the one right above 'On-Ball Steal', if I recall correctly. The reality, though, is that you're probably forcing the ball, and/or passing it too early. Last night I started to have a lot more success with this, just by waiting on the pass just a hair longer -- although even then sometimes it doesn't get through (nor should it). The P&R is something that has been so easily exploitable for years now, it's nice to not just be able to run it successfully over and over and over again with no thought. I've also found that calling a play that has it as a component seems to be much more successful than manually calling a pick with the B or O or whatever button it is on your particular controller.

Oh and Team momentum is alive and well here. Other team goes on an 8-0 run, which includes a fade away 3 with my hand in the guys jockstrap. Miss 2 layups (slightly challenged) in the process. I call a time out, and then immediately, my guy hits a contested layup in the paint. C'mon dude.

This just sounds like a team going on a run. It happens in the NBA all the time. How come we never think it's weird when we, as the User, go on a 10 - 0 run? We never stop and question the nature of our points (we executed perfect plays, duh, we're the User!). It's part of the fun of basketball. Withstand the run, and go on your own. Just because you call a timeout doesn't mean you should get an immediate stop.

[Rasheeed]

I agree. There are way too many tough shots made with the shot clock expiring in this game. Not a problem if it's done by Kobe, Dirk or Lebron but when you see the 9th man bust a deep fade away and hit it gets frustrating.

For me defense is what the game is about but sadly I can't seem to defend n 2k15. It seems as though my players are way too slow to change directions and the CPU just ends u blowing past me. I liked 2k13 because I could body up the attacker and make it hard to get to the basket....it was fun to play physical defense. Haven't been able to replicate this in 2k15 but am open to suggestions regarding sliders.

[centrifugal]

In today's episode of 2k15 Cheese, we're going to talk about Full court press and trapping. Let's begin, shall we?

I played 2 games today one vs the clippers and the other vs the thunder. In both games I was down by more than 10 points during half-time due to...drum roll... CHEESE. So I decided to try to apply full court press, and trap the point guard. To do that I'm controlling the defender who guards the man making the inbounds pass, so that once the pass is made I'm going to sprint, try to force the ball handler to the corner and trap him. A strategy that is quite common in basketball. Let's see what happens:

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As I'm trying my best with Duncan to catch up to the Clippers shooting guard, Green decides to take a nap for a couple of dribbles.

phpBB [video]

Tony Parker decides to leave the right lane open

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Mills decides to stay put for one dribble and then leave the left lane open

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Mills just watches Westbrook blow by him as he's falling asleep for a dribble or two

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Green leaves the lane open once again and once again he just takes a nap for a couple of dribbles.

This happens all the time, these are only a few videos. More cheese videos coming soon.

[bigh0rt]

I really think you need to re-look up what we define as CPU 'cheese'. Is this something that just happens when you're up by 10, and the CPU is 'due for a run'? You said in your post you were down 10, which is not typically a scenario where you see CPU cheese. Also, I think this is something that just happens just about all the time, right? I'm never able to really trap, nor am I ever stopped by it from the CPU. This speaks to me more about the ability to actually run a Full Court Trap, than it does 'cheese'. I'd like to see 2K tweak this so that it's an actual strategy that both the User and CPU can invoke.

Again, if this were something that only happened when it was convenient for the CPU, that's cheese. What you're showing here is that the Full Court Trap just seems to be broken (I want to say it has been since at least 2K13, but I don't remember -- I just know I never run it, because I'm never able to be successful, which speaks to either me just not being good at it, or a problem with the game -- I can recall on very rare instances in 2K14 being able to force the ball handler out of bounds). The responsiveness of defensive players in the opposing team's backcourt just doesn't seem to be up to snuff. That doesn't make it cheese. Cheese would be if you found a certain spot to shoot from that always went in, or how the Euro Pullup (I think it was) in 2K13 or 2K14 had to be disabled cause it went in nearly 100% of the time no matter where you were on the court, etc.

I'm not saying the game is perfect, or that there isn't an issue with your videos (although I do wonder if some of it has to do with you being a keyboard user, since I have to imagine the responsiveness of a stick on a XB1 or PS4 controller is extremely superior to the four arrow keys). It just isn't cheese.

[centrifugal]

Bighort,

In response to your position about this being possibly a keyboard issue, I'd like to pinpoint that the players being "asleep" and unable to react are not controlled by me but by the CPU. I'm controlling the tall guy in the middle.

Although the discussion about whether it should be really be called cheese or not, is down to scemantics, I'll explain to you what I mean when I'm calling this cheese.

In the occurences when I'm up 10+ points, CPU plays full court defense. And in that case it is far more succesful, if not trapping me, at least not letting me go through the defender with the first step. I usually have to change direction a couple of times or pass the ball. When I play full court defense, the CPU guard just blows by my defense as if noone guards him.

Even if this is not generally accepted as "cheese" - I'm not from the US/UK, so I'm at a disadvantage here in regards to English slang - it's something that is definitely broken and needs to be fixed.

In terms of previous games... in 2k14 trapping worked wonderfully. The AI was rather bad at breaking full court traps and that needed fixing as normally the point guard eiher tried to spam-dribble his way through the trap or he made a very long pass that were often thrown out of bounds. However, making full court defense irrelevant is definitely not the way to fix this.

Defense as a whole is broken, and I'm going to be posting more videos, hoping that someone from 2k will notice and fix defense issues with a future patch.

[bigh0rt]

Some AI tweaking to make the players more responsive in the backcourt would be fantastic. Thanks for the keyboard clarification. I do remember forcing the long pass in 2K14, and the CPU not handling it well at all. Have you gone into controller settings and changed Defensive Assist (I think it's called?) at all? It's generally disregarded as something that only n00bs need to use, but maybe it could be helpful here? Worth a shot, at the very least.

I do disagree, though, that 'defense' is broken. I am getting much better at defending on the perimeter, staying in front of my man, etc. Sometimes you get beat, yes, but that should be the case, even when I do the right things. It happens. Initially, I felt very clumsy on D, but the more I play the more natural it feels and the better I'm able to anticipate how my player will move, and I'm not over-shuffling, or standing idly. This Full Court Trap though, definitely seems to be an issue. For me it's not a game breaker, as I rarely, if ever trap, but I certainly understanding wanting it to function as it should.

On the semantical issues, it sounds like we are certainly agreeing on the issue; just calling it different things.

[fjccommish]

The problem with changing sliders is the CPU doesn't know you changed them. It becomes easier to win when you adjust away the ways the CPU makes points or stops you from scoring.

[skoadam]

its just amazing to see how some users defend 2k even with proofs on the table, 2k coop or what lol

[Call_M3_Mr-T]

its just amazing to see how some users defend 2k even with proofs on the table, 2k coop or what lol

+1 Exactly

[JWL3]

In today's episode of 2k15 Cheese, we're going to talk about Full court press and trapping. Let's begin, shall we?



Green leaves the lane open once again and once again he just takes a nap for a couple of dribbles.

This happens all the time, these are only a few videos. More cheese videos coming soon.

Yep. But this actually happens to me on the other end too. My eyes open wide when they play full court press cause all I need to do is press turbo and blow past them all for a wide open layup. The full court press is useless IMO. There are a few times when they do play tight and I need to dribble my way out of the tight press, but that's rare. (playing on Pro level)

[JWL3]

Another form of cheese: how many of you guys took what you thought was a 3 but then was a 2? I just watched my own player 6 inches from the 3 pt line, but when I pulled the trigger, he put his right foot on the line and shot the 2. Wow. I wish 2k would make it a lot more intelligent and have the players shoot actual 3's. If you're a pro, it's almost second nature to know where the line is without even looking at it. I don't need my stupid player putting his foot on the line intentionally. It's almost like you need to shoot the ball from 3 feet behind the 3 pt line in order for it to be a guaranteed 3.


Oh, and some shot clock cheese for the day: Lillard just nailed a step back 3 from 5 ft behind the 3 pt line. Nice.