well, the cavs are out, where will LeBron be in 2011?

[Andrew]

Whether or not they have a post game is not the issue here. Again, the question you posed:

When have two perimeter players whose game was dominating the ball, penetrating and creating offense ever done anything together?

Granted, it's not a common blueprint for success but one team certainly made it work, to the tune of six championships.

If that description doesn't fit Pippen, how would you describe him? He was a perimeter player who could penetrate and he was one of the main ballhandlers for the Bulls, sharing the duties with Jordan. Dominating the ball is a stretch though it could be applied to Pippen during the year and half he played without Jordan and again, he had the ball in his hands a fair bit even when Jordan was around, leading the team in assists through most of the 90s.

If LeBron and Wade were to play together, I'd suggest they'd have to adopt a similar approach and make similar sacrifices, sharing the ballhandling duties. Whether it would work or not remains to be seen, it depends on whether either of them are willing and able to yield "alpha dog" status, but if they can there's a precedent for success.

But even if you want to throw out all historical comparisons, if you have the chance to have two talents like LeBron and Wade on your roster, do you turn it down? I don't think you can, I think you've got to give it a try. Worst case scenario, you've got a very valuable trade asset, for which you can basically name your price. Having such a talented tandem is just too unique an opportunity to pass up.

[koberulz]

If that description doesn't fit Pippen, how would you describe him? He was a perimeter player who could penetrate and he was one of the main ballhandlers for the Bulls, sharing the duties with Jordan.

But he had more to his game. Pippen could be effective with Jordan handling the ball, and vice versa. If Wade has the ball, LeBron might as well be on the bench, and vice versa. They both need the ball in their hands to be effective, which they can't both do at the same time. LeBron to a larger degree than Wade.

Dominating the ball is a stretch

Which was my point.

though it could be applied to Pippen during the year and half he played without Jordan

Which is irrelevant.

and again, he had the ball in his hands a fair bit even when Jordan was around, leading the team in assists through most of the 90s.

But again, there was more to his game than simply isolating and going to the rim, either finishing or drawing help for the kick-out. My point wasn't simply about having the ball a lot, but needing to take a large portion of the team's shots and being ineffective without the ball.

If LeBron and Wade were to play together, I'd suggest they'd have to adopt a similar approach and make similar sacrifices, sharing the ballhandling duties.

What would the other do? Both have developed a game around going 1-on-5 in an attempt to score or get to the line, neither of them can really play off another star, particularly another perimeter star. It's simply wasting a spot on the floor that could be taken by someone who can effectively play off that penetration.

if you have the chance to have two talents like LeBron and Wade on your roster, do you turn it down? I don't think you can, I think you've got to give it a try. Worst case scenario, you've got a very valuable trade asset, for which you can basically name your price. Having such a talented tandem is just too unique an opportunity to pass up.

Depends what else is available. If I can get one of them and Bosh/Amar'e/some other quality big man, I'd go for that even if the big man may be less talented than the other perimeter player. If you've got the cap space to sign two top-tier players and two perimeter guys is all you can get, it'd be a more worthwhile gamble.

[NovU]

I see your point, Kroberulz, but it's all a prediction. The thing Andrew is pointing out is that you don't pass up on Lebron over anyone else, even if you have Wade, Bosh, Kobe, Shaq, TD, or whoever in the league. Nobody's saying Wade/Lebron will be Pippen/Jordan, but you just can't rule out the possibility that it might work out. If you saw the Olympics and All Star game, you can see that both were great together. It may not be saying much due to the stages being different, but it's still a fact that those two are two of the best in the world.

I've got the 2006 ECF and Finals on DVD, I'll sit down and watch them sometime and see, but that was Wade's team.

It was only later when Wade started to take an actual leadership role and more burden on both ends of the the floor when the team was underachieving.

And that was during the season.

[koberulz]

I see your point, Kroberulz, but it's all a prediction. The thing Andrew is pointing out is that you don't pass up on Lebron over anyone else, even if you have Wade, Bosh, Kobe, Shaq, TD, or whoever in the league.

Of course you do. LeBron is massively overrated, and if all he can give me is an inferior version of what someone already on my team can give me, I'd rather spend my money on filling a gap. You don't win a championship with 12 shooting guards who all want to go one on five off the dribble to score.

[NovU]

You'd make a great GM, passing on Lebron for Bosh.

[Andrew]

But he had more to his game. Pippen could be effective with Jordan handling the ball, and vice versa. If Wade has the ball, LeBron might as well be on the bench, and vice versa. They both need the ball in their hands to be effective, which they can't both do at the same time. LeBron to a larger degree than Wade.

I wouldn't deem Wade or LeBron completely useless without the ball. Besides, have they ever really been in a situation where they don't have to have the ball in their hands? Playing alongside one another, they'd actually have someone they could depend on to share those duties. In theory it's possible. In practice, granted, it may be easier said than done.

Which is irrelevant.

It demonstrates that Pippen could be that kind of player and probably would have been had he never played alongside Jordan. As far as their style of play is concerned, if they were to play together I'd still compare it to Jordan and Pippen in their "Doberman" days.

But again, there was more to his game than simply isolating and going to the rim, either finishing or drawing help for the kick-out. My point wasn't simply about having the ball a lot, but needing to take a large portion of the team's shots and being ineffective without the ball.

It depends how much they are willing to share the ball. They can still get their shots, they'd both still create plays and they'd both still have the ball in their hands enough to be effective...or again, it's a least possible in theory, though probably easier said than done.

What would the other do? Both have developed a game around going 1-on-5 in an attempt to score or get to the line, neither of them can really play off another star, particularly another perimeter star. It's simply wasting a spot on the floor that could be taken by someone who can effectively play off that penetration.

That's the thing though, we've never seen them play alongside another player of their magnitude or with a similar game. Larry Hughes and Eddie Jones just don't measure up. Do they go 1-on-5 as often if they have each other to fall back on? Maybe, maybe not. We can't rule out the possibility that they'll tailor their games and be able to play off one another, as neither as truly had the opportunity to show whether or not they can do that.

Depends what else is available. If I can get one of them and Bosh/Amar'e/some other quality big man, I'd go for that even if the big man may be less talented than the other perimeter player. If you've got the cap space to sign two top-tier players and two perimeter guys is all you can get, it'd be a more worthwhile gamble.

Fair enough, that would be following the more traditional blueprint. I'm not saying that's the wrong way to go, just that a team built around two perimeter/wing players has been successful in the past. If there's a legitimate chance of pairing LeBron with Wade, I think you have to pursue it because that's such a rare opportunity.

[koberulz]

You'd make a great GM, passing on Lebron for Bosh.

If we had Wade and no big men, yes, yes I would.

I wouldn't deem Wade or LeBron completely useless without the ball. Besides, have they ever really been in a situation where they don't have to have the ball in their hands? Playing alongside one another, they'd actually have someone they could depend on to share those duties. In theory it's possible. In practice, granted, it may be easier said than done.

I haven't seen too much of Wade this year, but certainly LeBron has shown me absolutely nothing to indicate that he can get by. His game is based solely around running people over; somewhat a perimeter version of Shaq or Dwight Howard. When he doesn't have the ball, he tends to stand around, and he lacks the shooting ability to hit a three on a kick-out. Neither of them have a post game, which hurts their ability to play off of each other. It's not a matter of whether they've been in a situation to show that they can do it, it's a matter of them having demonstrated a lack of the skills necessary to do so.

Fair enough, that would be following the more traditional blueprint. I'm not saying that's the wrong way to go, just that a team built around two perimeter/wing players has been successful in the past. If there's a legitimate chance of pairing LeBron with Wade, I think you have to pursue it because that's such a rare opportunity.

But again, it depends who you're passing on. If the Lakers were choosing between Gasol and LeBron right now, I'd hope they'd take Gasol. LeBron is just Kobe Lite, whereas Gasol fills a void that nobody else on the roster fills. If you had a decent big man, then maybe it's worth a shot, but opting to take Wade and LeBron and not having any inside presence isn't going to get you anywhere. Even those Bulls teams had decent inside players, if for nothing more than crashing the boards and playing solid D.

[Andrew]

If it's Kobe we're talking about, I'd take Gasol too as I doubt he and LeBron would be able to co-exist, outside of Team USA. Plus, we already know it would work.

As far as the big men they'd be passing on, we can probably narrow that down to Bosh, Ama're, Dirk and Boozer. I'd still be more inclined to take LeBron, with Bosh and Dirk being my next choices.

[koberulz]

Depends which team you are and which big men are already in place, really.

[Andrew]

Sure. Though if you want solid defense and rebounding, you're probably going to pass on Amar'e after the WCF.

[NovU]

If we had Wade and no big men, yes, yes I would.

That's a proven effective mix that most people want, these days. Can't go wrong with that, although I(if was a GM) still would go for Lebron and trade Wade(or Bron for a big) if things doesn't turn out to be great.

I haven't seen too much of Wade this year, but certainly LeBron has shown me absolutely nothing to indicate that he can get by.

I disagree to the max.

Neither of them have a post game, which hurts their ability to play off of each other. It's not a matter of whether they've been in a situation to show that they can do it, it's a matter of them having demonstrated a lack of the skills necessary to do so.

Interesting thought, but watching the Olympics and All Star, Wade didn't really need the post game to be effective while Lebron was handling the ball most of time. Of course, NBA league is a different stage, but perhaps, they don't have the post game yet because they just didn't need it so far in their career.

But again, it depends who you're passing on. If the Lakers were choosing between Gasol...

But we are talking about Wade here. Wade isn't in Kobe's position and Bosh seems to be the best big man available in the market for him. The discussion narrows down to who's really a better fit in Miami between Bosh and Lebron.

[benji]

LeBron and Wade would look more like the Olympics. (Or the All-Star Game.) LeBron spending much of the game simply distributing and creating shots for others. He clearly wants to be Magic for 90% of the game, not Jordan. (See High School where he could've averaged 60ppg but spent most of the game trying to set up his teammates.) The LeBron-Wade combo down the stretch would be nearly impossible to guard as well as Wade would willingly take over, and LeBron would know he doesn't have to so he would too.

Just don't hope too much for three pointers. (I'm one of those who says both guys need to add this more than they need to add the Jordan mid-range post-up game. LeBron can do that post-30 if he has to. Like Jordan did.)

[koberulz]

I haven't seen too much of Wade this year, but certainly LeBron has shown me absolutely nothing to indicate that he can get by.

I disagree to the max.

Based on what? His stellar post game, awesome three-point percentage, incredibly free-throw percentage and his proven hustle off the ball against the Celtics?

[benji]

If you're basing LeBron on what you saw in the Celtics series when he blatantly gave up, and not his domination over the last two years, or even say his epic duel with Carmelo Anthony, then I'm not sure you're talking about the LeBron James everyone wants. (Although yes, he is afraid of developing a post game for some reason.)

And Shaq's game at the peak was not based on "running people over" it was the complete opposite, soft and smart moves with fantastic passing. Shaq in 2000 was quite different from the one that played a high level (28/13/6 on 60% shooting) but lost in 1995.

[NovU]

Perhaps, because I don't enjoy all these criticism on Lebron despite of being the best player in the league this season. We wouldn't even be discussing this crap if it wasn't for the Celtics and Lebron made it to the finals.

Anyways, Lebron had a stellar season without a doubt, and of course, he has criteria that still needs to be improved but he's still the best player, and a better player than anyone in the world. If that has shown you nothing, I think you are expecting way too much from Lebron.

[benji]

There's a desire to diminish the best players in the league. Whether it's the myth that Shaq was nothing but size (despite his soft touch and great moves around the basket and amazing passing), Duncan being boring or LeBron and Garnett "not being winners or making their teammates better" there's always ways for the New York/Boston/Los Angeles cartel of media and insufferable fans to rant, rave and exaggerate flaws in the greats. (Include Dallas fans if you mention Wade.)

All while pretending players like Latrell Sprewell are hall of famers.

[koberulz]

If you're basing LeBron on what you saw in the Celtics series when he blatantly gave up, and not his domination over the last two years, or even say his epic duel with Carmelo Anthony, then I'm not sure you're talking about the LeBron James everyone wants. (Although yes, he is afraid of developing a post game for some reason.)

The LeBron they get is what matters, not the LeBron they want.

Perhaps, because I don't enjoy all these criticism on Lebron despite of being the best player in the league this season. We wouldn't even be discussing this crap if it wasn't for the Celtics and Lebron made it to the finals.

If he hadn't quit, we wouldn't be calling him a quitter? Sure. But he did. A spade is a spade is a spade.

Anyways, Lebron had a stellar season without a doubt, and of course, he has criteria that still needs to be improved but he's still the best player, and a better player than anyone in the world. If that has shown you nothing, I think you are expecting way too much from Lebron.

And how much of that did he do playing off anyone else's penetration? None. You can't point to what he did as the primary ballhandler to say he's shown the ability to play with someone else as the primary ballhandler. That is simply illogical. He might be the most statistically great player in the league, but he does that simply because he's a freak of nature and gets by running past his man and jumping over and through any help that shows up. He's not close to the most talented player in the league, and he has a lot he needs to add to his game if he's going to keep producing these sorts of numbers for any more than a few years into the future.

[benji]

The LeBron they get is what matters, not the LeBron they want.

Except the LeBron they get is a player who has already proven he can play at the level of the first-team all-time greats. While having blatant flaws in his game.

And how much of that did he do playing off anyone else's penetration? None. You can't point to what he did as the primary ballhandler to say he's shown the ability to play with someone else as the primary ballhandler.

Unless you count the Olympics where he deferred to Melo and Wade. Or High School where he played more like a high scoring Nash than how he's played for the Cavs where they stand around waiting for him to create. Or the All-Star games where he has done the same things. Wade and Melo are players who want to take it every time down, LeBron doesn't, he wants to involve everyone, it's why he does the skits and everything else. LeBron has been frustrated because he hasn't had those guys he can setup and relax about, the Cavs have needed him to get everything going for them. Wade's been going through the same thing, and both have shown the whole "I can put it up at historic levels for a game or two but I need you fuckers to help me out!" Even Jordan needed backup, the Bulls might have lost the 1996 Finals if the rest of the team hadn't been there to bail out Jordan.

This isn't a defense of LeBron, he has his issues, see below, and above, but you can never take one player, add eleven random players and expect the best. Ask Kobe about it. He spent two years doing it.

He might be the most statistically great player in the league, but he does that simply because he's a freak of nature and gets by running past his man and jumping over and through any help that shows up. He's not close to the most talented player in the league, and he has a lot he needs to add to his game if he's going to keep producing these sorts of numbers for any more than a few years into the future.

Nobody disagrees with this, but the fact is, he's already one of the best players in league history. And he has incredible flaws in his game that he still has five years to perfect and still be in his prime. That's why he's scary. That's why teams are selling kidneys if they have to in order to get him.

[koberulz]

The LeBron they get is what matters, not the LeBron they want.

Except the LeBron they get is a player who has already proven he can play at the level of the first-team all-time greats. While having blatant flaws in his game.

What good is any of that if he quits on his team?

Unless you count the Olympics where he deferred to Melo and Wade. Or High School where he played more like a high scoring Nash than how he's played for the Cavs where they stand around waiting for him to create.

Haven't seen any of that, so I can hardly take it into account.

Or the All-Star games where he has done the same things.

I'd hardly suggest an All-Star game is indicative of what one could expect during regular NBA play, though.

This isn't a defense of LeBron, he has his issues, see below, and above, but you can never take one player, add eleven random players and expect the best.

Which is why I'd be hesitant to put together a team with LeBron and Wade instead of getting a good big man to complement just one of them.

Nobody disagrees with this

I wouldn't say that.

he has incredible flaws in his game that he still has five years to perfect and still be in his prime.

But will he? Or will he continue to coast along and then collapse once his body begins to decline? He's been in the league seven years now or something, and he's still incredibly limited. He should be better than he is.

[NovU]

Perhaps, because I don't enjoy all these criticism on Lebron despite of being the best player in the league this season. We wouldn't even be discussing this crap if it wasn't for the Celtics and Lebron made it to the finals.

If he hadn't quit, we wouldn't be calling him a quitter? Sure. But he did. A spade is a spade is a spade.

Lolz… Yes and here we are talking about how much Lebron sucks so that Miami should skip on Lebron and chase others.

And how much of that did he do playing off anyone else's penetration? None. You can't point to what he did as the primary ballhandler to say he's shown the ability to play with someone else as the primary ballhandler. That is simply illogical.

I don’t know why I was expected to touch this issue, as it’s very very clear that he has flaws that anybody can point out from their own angle, especially since he lost to the Celtics. I was just keen on the idea that Lebron/Wade duo might work out due to the reasons I mentioned above while I also acknowledged that it might not. But rather I was just responding to your comment saying that he’s shown nothing this year.

He might be the most statistically great player in the league, but he does that simply because he's a freak of nature and gets by running past his man and jumping over and through any help that shows up.

I take more appreciative stance on this issue. IMO, being a freak of nature is a god given talent and using it to his advantage is only good as Lebron has already been working hard in doing so. And given MJ and other greats had their shares of flaws, I don’t see a point in trying to over-expose Lebron’s flaws only. I can argue that Kobe's flaw is not having Lebron's physique so he ain't as good as him or ever can be or even ever was.

Which is why I'd be hesitant to put together a team with LeBron and Wade instead of getting a good big man to complement just one of them.

You seem to keep skipping on the options the team can have by getting both on a roster. Trade being one of them, other good players willing to sacrifice in order to be with them being two, so on…

he's still incredibly limited against the Celtics. He should be better than he is against the Celtics.

Corrected.

[koberulz]

I take more appreciative stance on this issue. IMO, being a freak of nature is a god given talent and using it to his advantage is only good as Lebron has already been working hard in doing so. And given MJ and other greats had their shares of flaws, I don’t see a point in trying to over-expose Lebron’s flaws only. I can argue that Kobe's flaw is not having Lebron's physique so he ain't as good as him or ever can be or even ever was.

Firstly, there is no God, he was just born that way. Even if there was, being big isn't a talent. He's big. He can't help that. He can maximise the potential of his body, but he didn't get to be 6'8" by practising. Physique is not a choice, and therefore can neither be a talent nor a flaw. Why should the fact that he's learned to push his way into the lane mean we're not allowed to point out that he can't actually do anything else?

he's still incredibly limited against the Celtics. He should be better than he is against the Celtics.

Corrected.

[/quote]
What? LeBron shot 40% from three the rest of the year, shot 90% from the free-throw line, got a post game, and learned how to come off a screen properly? And all this just disappeared during the Celtics series? Are you serious?

LeBron is a fucking beast, but he's not that talented. Heck, I would suggest I'm as talented as LeBron if not more; the only reason I'm not in the NBA is that I'm 6'1" and all of 160 lbs.

[NovU]

Firstly, there is no God, he was just born that way. Even if there was, being big isn't a talent. He's big. He can't help that. He can maximise the potential of his body, but he didn't get to be 6'8" by practising. Physique is not a choice, and therefore can neither be a talent nor a flaw. Why should the fact that he's learned to push his way into the lane mean we're not allowed to point out that he can't actually do anything else?

This is awesome. I too always thought Earl Boykins was the most talented player on planet earth.

]What? LeBron shot 40% from three the rest of the year, shot 90% from the free-throw line, got a post game, and learned how to come off a screen properly? And all this just disappeared during the Celtics series? Are you serious?

LeBron is a fucking beast, but he's not that talented. Heck, I would suggest I'm as talented as LeBron if not more; the only reason I'm not in the NBA is that I'm 6'1" and all of 160 lbs.

YOU are AWESOME! Where da hell were you 2 years ago when Kobe failed yet others were blamed!? WE really could have used your FANTISTIC INSIGHT!

[Murat]

LeBron? Good luck to him. No opinions by me. Because NBA has another problems (Lakers in finals [again?!?]) Olin is a joke.

[air gordon]

Unless you count the Olympics where he deferred to Melo and Wade. Or High School where he played more like a high scoring Nash than how he's played for the Cavs where they stand around waiting for him to create.

Haven't seen any of that, so I can hardly take it into account.

haha are you fucking kidding me? guess some things never change for lakers fans. crawford4mip4real!

[shadowgrin]

You may have seen it but I didn't, so it musn't have happened!
lol, yeah.

He can maximise the potential of his body, but he didn't get to be 6'8" by practising. Physique is not a choice, and therefore can neither be a talent nor a flaw. Why should the fact that he's learned to push his way into the lane mean we're not allowed to point out that he can't actually do anything else?

Talent is not a choice. It's something that you already have. LeBron is a 6'8" 240 lb. person that can barrel into the the lane. Not too many people have that body and height and if they do, not a lot of person can properly use that physique either.
Maybe you are referring to skill.