sticky-fingers wrote:bluejaybrandon wrote:Ah I apologize. I didn’t realize you were a basketball savant. Please don’t tell me you have Malone and Barkley ahead of Lebron. I give you Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kareem but after that you’re running thin on players who are better overall basketball players. If you actually think Hakeem, Barkley, Drexler or others are ahead, please save us all the trouble and avoid discussing overalls. I mean, I can’t even fathom the mental gymnastics it takes to say there are several players before James.
It’s clear you’d be biased and irrational concerning older players which is fine. Old heads can be like this when there’s change. You’d hate on Lebron if he cured cancer. When statistics don’t matter, there really is no rationalizing with that. I’m saying objectively when comparing statistics he is top 5 all around and beats out others you have named. You want to talk subjectively about abstract aspects like how Charles Barkley fit in his shorts or how many Christmas cards Larry Bird sent his teammates. When you get into the abstract like that, you can find any reason to elevate players. But stats don’t lie and Lebron James stats equate to that of top 5. Cold, hard data.
Now I hereby declare this discussion as over because I feel that we can’t discuss this and therefore I win! Am I doing that right Dee?
GOAT debate is ... a debate, so everyone has his opinion, none is the one and only one.
you wrote Prime LeBron is #2 undoubtly. Well, just an example, Prime Hakeem was better IMO, won 2 titles, the firt one as UNIQUE superstar in his team.
Player'stats are a part of the equation, but it says nothing without context : teammates, opponents, rules. And defense -50% of the game- is very difficult to measure by stats.
Yes, and I have Hakeem over LeBron on all-time. His constant demand of double teams, his ELITE defense (could be the greatest defensive player of all time, but I have Jordan, Russell and Wilt also in that conversation), his leadership etc.
He stuck it out with the Rockets and won his first title in 93-94 in a West that won 53% of the leagues overall games, and his second in 94-95 in a West that won 58% of the leagues games. For those two years it was the stronger conference, and he and the Rockets were awesome.
Both teams had weak benches, with Vernon Maxwell even quitting during the first round in the 95 playoffs. K. Smith, Maxwell, Horry and Thorpe is hardly what you call stacked (93-94), but Hakeem was literally that good. So many things he did didnt even show up on the stat sheet (his stats were also elite, mind you). His command of double teams on almost every possession caused defense to be out of position constantly, it opened up the entire perimeter at times because they would throw a second guy at him, and he would kick it out and the defense would suddenly be scrambling, they couldnt recover to the shooters and often it ended up in an open three or open mid range shot. The amount of hockey assists Hakeem had was unreal, hockey assists (the pass that leads to the pass that leads to the score) does not show up on the stat sheet. Hakeem NEEDED to be double teamed because he was a knockdown mid range shooter, great around the basket, with an ELITE back to the basket game. Amazing in the low and high post (Elbows), and on the short corners.
Shot contests do not, either. Effectively closing out or contesting a shot and forcing someone to miss, or doing the same and forcing someone to pass, does not show up on the stat sheet. Hakeem was CONSTANTLY altering shots and making the offense uncomfortable. His defensive stats are ELITE, but they dont tell even close to the whole story.
He was also doing this in a league with Shaq, Ewing, David Robinson, Mourning, Mutombo, Willis, Daugherty, etc. At a time where bigs men roamed the paint and the game was far more physical. He dueled and won against some of the greatest centers in NBA history. As good as Shaq, Ewing, Robinson etc were, they just weren't as good as Hakeem.
Drop Hakeem into LeBrons era in THAT EAST (Or in general), and I easily take Hakeem. Not even a question.
Drop LeBron in Hakeems era, I easily take Hakeem. That's not even a question for me.
Have an open court where we don't know anybody's names, no media hype, just watching players play BASKETBALL. I take Hakeem, easily. I take Hakeem Olajuwon as a BASKETBALL PLAYER over LeBron James.
I have Hakeem over LeBron, period.
My statement on stats "Stats are a support for certain on court happenings, stats ARE NOT BASKETBALL. "
I literally didn't say stats don't matter, I said that stats are not the whole picture, and not the final say. SO MANY THINGS happen outside of the stat sheet, things that are not measured in box scores, advanced stats, analytics, etc. Not all rebounds are created equal, not all assists, not all steals and blocks. Not all points are created equal because they come at different times of games and circumstances, etc. Someone can have 8 rebounds and 6 of them be because he was sagging off his assignment and hanging in the paint, 6 that fell to him, and out of those 6, 4 came when they were down 20 and the game was out of reach. Another player can have 8 rebounds, 6 that he fought for, with those 6 coming in the midst of a tough game, one that sealed the win. Both those 8 rebound games look EXACTLY THE SAME on the stat sheet.
You learn FAR MORE by watching the games. You CANNOT SEE the defense shifting and Hakeem being double teams on every possession with stats, you CANNOT SEE Steph Curry making the defense shift constantly with and without the ball in stats. Hakeem, David Robinson, Larry Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Garnett, Russell Westbrook, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Bob McAdoo, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kobe Bryant, John Stockton, etc etc all have GREAT stats. They all can hang in the stat department.
