Kidd (finally) traded to Dallas

What I'm basically trying to say is, your stats are showing he's a horrible shooter, everyone knows that. That's not where he makes his money.

Kidd sucks this year, he's a loser. And he's aging. He makes his money because he signed a big contract long ago. Devin Harris is not as good as Kidd's peak, but he's at least as good as Kidd now. And he's far younger.

What is Kidd doing to help his team compared to Harris? He's shooting poorly, turning it over, and not getting to line. (Neither one gets offensive boards.) Harris is shooting well, turning it over less and getting to the line over three times as much

Kidd "makes his money" because of the "hype" not because he's a great player. He was rarely a great offensive player. He "changed" the Nets because he was a dominant defender and the team was healthy.

I brought up Williams and Nash to show that even though they are fantastic passers and ball handlers they are still tops in the league in turnovers because they handle the ball and are forced to make more plays for their teams than Harris.

And I again referenced turnover percentage to account for their higher amount of possessions.

I'm not going to tell you that stats don't always tell the whole story when you can watch every game a player plays.

And watching a player tells you no more of the story than simply looking at stats. Often less.

You can throw all the stats in the world into this thread, none of them show Kidd has to do a lot more for his team than Harris in order for them to be successful.

Not that Kidd does any of those things. Remember: he doesn't make shots, turns it over, doesn't get offensive rebounds and doesn't get to the line. He fails at all Four Factors, and fails more than Harris at three of the four.

good deal for Nets....the Nets have a future again....hopefully they can get Mike Miller, ditch Vince Carter for a good big guy & I'm jumping on the Fitzy-led bandwagon

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3250819 coming soon

good deal for Nets....the Nets have a future again....hopefully they can get Mike Miller, ditch Vince Carter for a good big guy & I'm jumping on the Fitzy-led bandwagon

and we currently have a special on for new members

but im actually really keen on this trade now, id love to see van horn back in new jersey

This trade sucks. And Keith Van Horn is dancing around: he gets $4 million for nothing. Yes, he will be sitting on the bench.

With a weakened inside defence and a slower point guard, losing to Phoenix seems very likely. Losing to the Spurs is even more likely. New Orleans has a great chance against us. Golden State will outrun us (again). Boozer will kick ass while Dampier is off the court. Gasol? First-round exit is on: I don't think Dallas can survive three tough rounds and then the Finals so IMO, if they make this trade, they won't win the championship this year.

Seems like it´s finally done: http://www.nj.com/nets/ledger/index.ssf ... xml&coll=1

Also very weird, but interesting rumour is also about Pacers getting Mike Miller for Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu, it was in the realgm.

What I'm basically trying to say is, your stats are showing he's a horrible shooter, everyone knows that. That's not where he makes his money.

Kidd sucks this year, he's a loser. And he's aging. He makes his money because he signed a big contract long ago. Devin Harris is not as good as Kidd's peak, but he's at least as good as Kidd now. And he's far younger.

What is Kidd doing to help his team compared to Harris? He's shooting poorly, turning it over, and not getting to line. (Neither one gets offensive boards.) Harris is shooting well, turning it over less and getting to the line over three times as much

Kidd "makes his money" because of the "hype" not because he's a great player. He was rarely a great offensive player. He "changed" the Nets because he was a dominant defender and the team was healthy.

I brought up Williams and Nash to show that even though they are fantastic passers and ball handlers they are still tops in the league in turnovers because they handle the ball and are forced to make more plays for their teams than Harris.

And I again referenced turnover percentage to account for their higher amount of possessions.

I'm not going to tell you that stats don't always tell the whole story when you can watch every game a player plays.

And watching a player tells you no more of the story than simply looking at stats. Often less.

You can throw all the stats in the world into this thread, none of them show Kidd has to do a lot more for his team than Harris in order for them to be successful.

Not that Kidd does any of those things. Remember: he doesn't make shots, turns it over, doesn't get offensive rebounds and doesn't get to the line. He fails at all Four Factors, and fails more than Harris at three of the four.

I still think you're looking past a lot of what Kidd has to offer besides what your stats show, but we all have our own opinions and mine are obviously going to be a bit biased towards Kidd.

However I do agree with you that I think Dallas is making a mistake. Harris and two first rounders is already plenty for Kidd, not to mention losing Diop is going to hurt them a lot.

It's basically a last ditch effort for the Mavericks but I think what they gave up doesn't really put them ahead of where they were before, losing Diop leaves them very thin in the front court.

As not only a huge fan of Kidd, but also the Nets, it's going to hurt to see him leave. I can't complain with what we're getting in return though. I just want to see Carter out for basically anything and I'll be fairly happy with the team. We'll have plenty of young talent, expiring contracts and draft picks.

Nothing more I would like to see than for Kidd to win a championship, but I don't think acquiring a point guard was what the Mavericks really needed.

Also very weird, but interesting rumour is also about Pacers getting Mike Miller for Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu, it was in the realgm.

Not Quis the scramble scorer

or the Deflection King.

At least Mark Cuban can waste more of his money by offering Diop a contract at the end of the season...3 years for 40 mil sounds good.

I still think you're looking past a lot of what Kidd has to offer besides what your stats show

What are these things? And what evidence can be provided that they actually exist?

Yeah, he gets defensive rebounds, but so does most everyone. Alright, he gets assists, but we still aren't sure about the value of these, it's not like the Nets have had a good offense with Kidd there. Steals and defense? Harris is probably at least as good in that regard, if not better.

I suggest proof or ban to both benji and NNpF.

Also very weird, but interesting rumour is also about Pacers getting Mike Miller for Marquis Daniels and Ike Diogu, it was in the realgm.

that had better not happen, we neeed miller

I still think you're looking past a lot of what Kidd has to offer besides what your stats show

What are these things? And what evidence can be provided that they actually exist?

Yeah, he gets defensive rebounds, but so does most everyone. Alright, he gets assists, but we still aren't sure about the value of these, it's not like the Nets have had a good offense with Kidd there. Steals and defense? Harris is probably at least as good in that regard, if not better.

Not only does he get rebounds, but he leads the team in rebounds, that must be saying something for a point guard, especially at 35 years of age.

And your assists comment is exactly where watching the games would show the value of his assists. Like you said an assist is only one third of the equation, because the other player has to catch and shoot, Kidd puts them in a position where the catch and shot are made as easy as possible.

And you can't blame the bad offense on just Kidd, Jefferson is the only consistent offensive player on the team at this point.

Also I have a feeling you're going to say this isn't important at all, but leadership. Leading by example when the team seems to have lost interest in the game.

New Jersey is the only team I can back up by going by what I see during games because I have watched all but two games so far this entire season, and I know that probably means nothing to you but it is still very clear that Kidd has not declined as much as people have expected him too.

I by no means am trying to say Harris is a bad point guard, I think he's fantastic and if the trade goes through I think New Jersey has themselves a very good replacement for Kidd. I just can't understand how you can call Kidd a "loser". If you're going by the teams record, then that can never solely be placed on one player.

It's obvious we both have very different views on Kidd and that's fine. I just don't see how a drop off in points and field goal percentage makes him a "loser". He doesn't get to the line because teams play on his weakness and let him shoot the three which is obviously not his strength, and he doesn't have the quickness of Harris to be able to do make up for his bad shooting.

His only noticeable drop offs are in points and field goal percentage if you compare this year to his career stats. He's also lost a step on defense but he's still a fairly good defender. Obviously with age he's going to be less and less productive, but I doubt that's coming as fast as people are predicting and I would never go as far as to call him a "loser".

I love how the only argument people ever seem to make anymore around here is "watch the games, and you will see truth."

I already addressed Kidd's rebounds earlier, so I won't again.

Kidd puts them in position? I would think the other player has to position himself, then Kidd has to deliver the ball, and then they have to catch and then make the basket. Kidd doesn't pass to a location and uses magical powers to draw the player to the location where he will be open and then uses more to make the player make the basket.

And where is the evidence, beyond telling me to just watch and see it, that Kidd's assists actually benefit the team in anyway? Let alone enough to make up for all the possessions he wastes shooting and turning it over?

Sure, it may seem like it makes sense that Kidd is "creating" opportunities...but is he really? Is there evidence for this? Is Kidd's passing somehow making Bostjan Nachbar make more jumpers than he would otherwise?

I'm not blaming the bad offense on Kidd. I'm questioning the value of these "things the stats can't pick up" that supposidly erase all the detrimental things Kidd does on offense that the stats do pick up.

How is Kidd not a loser? What's a loser? A guy who hurts his team more than he helps it. Is Kidd wasting possessions on offense not hurting the team? He's giving up more than he recovers back on the defensive end. Harris is the opposite, he scores more than he gives up, thus, he's a "winner", even if he doesn't have the most important attributes: media attention, fans and "leadership."

Kidd0708 is shooting 48%, turning it over almost 24% of the time, his ORtg is 100. Kidd for his career is 50%, 18% and 105. Two years ago Kidd was at 53%, 16% and 110. He hasn't been this bad since his second season in the league. And that year he grabbed almost twice as many offensive rebounds.

I think stats means nothing in this case.

This is just a desperate attempt of cuban to get a championship. It´s a risky bet.


I rather bet on kidd then harris, and if does not work it´s not the end of the world. There can only one champion. Simple as it is.

possessions he wastes shooting and turning it over?

He only takes around 10 shots a game, so if he shoots 48% that's only about five possessions wasted if the team doesn't get the offensive rebound.

Sure, it may seem like it makes sense that Kidd is "creating" opportunities...but is he really? Is there evidence for this? Is Kidd's passing somehow making Bostjan Nachbar make more jumpers than he would otherwise?

That's exactly the kinds of things there aren't stats for, so no I can't prove it. If we're going solely based on stats then you win. You seem to have set your mind to the fact that Kidd hurts his team more than he helps it, and although I strongly disagree I do not have the stats to prove otherwise.

And the way you say the defensive team gets the rebound 70%+ of the time, you're saying that as if just because stats say it that the defensive team can just stand there and the rebound will end up in their hands 70%+ of the time. Players actually have to go get those rebounds, and the fact that he's leading the team in that must say something. Replace Harris with Kidd and you lose nearly 6 RPG that could go either way.

But again, if we're only going by stats then I can't prove Kidd's value to his team without posting 51 links to their games.

I understand where you're coming from because just as I I said Kidd does this and that during a game you havn't seen someone can do the exact same thing to me and I would have a hard time believing it without seeing it myself.

I'm going to be siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick.

Urggggggh.

*Vomits*

Its not like they were going to win a title before the trade anyway.

Better chance than with Kidd.

It's official:

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archi ... _official/

Confirmed

Dallas signs Keith Van Horn and trades Van Horn, Devin Harris, Trenton Hassell, Maurice Ager, DeSagana Diop, first-round draft choices in 2008 and 2010, and cash considerations to New Jersey for Jason Kidd, Malik Allen and Antoine Wright; waives Nick Fazekas.

www.nba.com

Haha! Keith Van Horn was signed and traded.

Maybe time to change the title of this thread?

like i said, the only real winner is van horn. i wish some one would hand me tons of money just to take a quick trip to nj

good, finally thats over and done with and we can begin rebuilding