Altercation Rule? - Suspension or not (with pics)

[Lamrock]

The entire playoffs are ruined by this suspension. It is BS that Bowen and Duncan aren't suspended.

I mean, PHX/SAS is the NBA Finals; and the Suns will lose big without STAT. And I doubt the Sus will win Game 6 on the road. This sucks. The Spurs have officially won the title on a technicality.

[Dro]

Does anybody have a video of Duncan and Bowen stepping over the line during that 2nd quarter altercation? If they're suspending Amare and Diaw for just that then they should suspend TD and "cheap shot" Bowen, too.

Here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y39nRO5keRM

Duncan is CLEARLY on the court...past the damn 3-point line! This is a blatant fucking double standard and I don't understand how the NBA expects basketball fans to accept this decision. Utterly ridiculous.

Rules are rules? MY ASS. Rules apply to some that don't apply to others.

[---]

That was a stupid decision by the league. There was no real altercation to begin with.

The league is so pussy-orientated now, punishing things that a part of human nature. I seriously doubt Amare and Diaw intended to jump in there and do anything but seperate it. Punishing every team but the San Antonio Spurs, though. This makes me hate the Spurs even more than I already did, even though it wasn't their decision... or was it?

I hope the Suns beat the shit out of the Spurs, though it will be tough with Amare and Diaw out, while San Antonio have to deal with losing super-mega-star Robert Horry for 2 games.

I do see a big plus in this though, if the Suns can pull this home game out, an angry Amare plus a motivated Boris Diaw could mean the Suns wrap the series up in 6 games, finishing the series in San Antonio.

[Drex]

Oh, thanks for the video. Where are the suspensions for Duncan and Bowen?

[[Q]]

It looks like Marion and Nash are going to have to step it up big time. The loss of Stoudemire is going to kill them, though.

interesting that the guy that helped them last year when Amare was out was suspended as well. is it Pat Burke time??

[Dro]

The office of Commissioner Stern: 212-407-8300

Voice your displeasure.

[Riot]

The office of Commissioner Stern: 212-407-8300

Voice your displeasure.

It's robbery, Playa! I'm on your side!

[Axel]

haha.

I am so calling that.

[maes]

It totally sucks, but there's no way Stu & Stern could have done otherwise wouldn't making a joke of their "no tolerance" policy.

Regarding the Spurs on court, the rule has nothing to do with being on court or not, otherwise there would have been hundreds of suspensions in the regular season.

The actual rule:

"During an altercation, all players not participating in the game must remain in the immediate vicinity of their bench. "

1. There was no altercation.
2. All Spurs remained within a few feet of the bench.

During the Horry-Nash incident

1. There was clearly an altercation, it's too obvious to deny when guys in suits are wrestling with players and all the players, announcers, coaches and every sports paper & internet site are all talking about the "altercation."
2. Amare & Diaw didn't just step out 2 feet, they ran up to the middle of the court
3. Amare has to be physically held back by an assistant, he didn't walk up and walk away on his own



It really sucks for the series, the penalty should change for the playoffs because 1 game is too steep in a 7 game series (versus 1 game out of 82 in the regular season).

[Axel]

It totally sucks, but there's no way Stu & Stern could have done otherwise wouldn't making a joke of their "no tolerance" policy.

Yeah, that's a load of crap. The DMV also says speeding is illegal, but first time offenders are usually given a warning ticket. Rules are meant to protect not punish.

by the way...

he obviously wasn't involved in the altercation. Perhaps you failed to notice that the actual players were several feet beyond the conglomerate of coaches and staff between Diaw and Stoudemire. Directly after that still shot, they went back to the bench. Their actions had absolutely no impact whatsoever on the game or the altercation.



edit:

I wrote this nice long thing up to recite to the answering machine. I'm sure it will probably all be for not, but I'd like to just relieve some stress and angst in the process. I plan to remove some of it because I think the recording might cut me off before I finish.

I am calling as a concerned basketball fan due to the recent suspensions of Phoenix Suns players Amare Stoudemire and Raja Bell. To expect a reveral would be pure fallacy on my part, and I would like to eliminate any sentiment of that before I even begin to voice my displeasure. Let me begin by decribing my position as a basketball fan. I am a fan of many teams, and the Suns happen to be on that list. I watch the NBA for the team competition, not individual performances. The playoffs are to me the highlight of the year as far as television is concerned. It brings joy to what is usually a very boring time of the year for me. With the recent suspensions, I must say that the spark of the playoffs is now gone for me. I’ll attempt to be as bipartisan as possible in saying that it was egregious, and completely unfair what has transpired in the past 4 – 6 hours. The NBA is nothing without its fans. Is this not what you strive for Commissioner Stern? To deliver a product that the fans can enjoy? What then may I ask is enjoyable about watching a team flounder in the wake of petty, ill-conceived rules? These suspensions have done no good. No fan wants to see two players suspended for such a marginal offense at best. What may I inquire of you was the harm in what transpired? The confrontation as it has been called was docile and contained. Stoudemire and Diaw had absolutely no impact on the action on the floor whatsoever. Some cited experts have claimed it is simply a matter of enforcing the rules. Perhaps we should look at our law enforcement officers for an example of what action really should have taken place. When one is caught casually over the speed limit, more often than not, a warning citation is issue. The law clearly states that speeding is prohibited, but there is amnesty granted for first time offenders and those who only slightly break the rule. How is such an exception not acceptable in this case?

I completely understand the league’s no tolerance to violence after the madness which took place at Auburn Hills. If you are concerned about player violence, I ask you to pay special attention to the actions of Stoudemire and Diaw. Both players quickly realized they had made a mistake and proceeded back to the bench. This is crystal clear evidence that players realize that altercation participation will result in suspension. What more action is needed than that? Do we really need to punish players who catch themselves in the heat of the moment, restrain themselves, and act grown up and return to the bench? Is this action not what the league has attempted to foster by handing out such lofty penalities to players like Artest, Jackson, and O’Neal? Why then, must Stoudemire and Diaw be punished for exhibiting restraint and self-discipline in returning to the bench? Such an action is overzealous and disregards the fans and all involved in favor of excessive punishment. Player response is to be expected. We could not possibly expect human beings to react to such an event, which is what happened in their standing up and walking towards to the midcourt line. However, we have every right to expect discipline, and that was undoubtedly displayed when the two players returned to their seats. I encourage the league to continue to analyze such a decision and ask itself whether or not its self-perceived integrity is worth preserving at the expense of the fans and all that is right and just in our world.

edit:

okay i said it all.

I feel much better. Talking to a brick wall always relieves my stress.

[Sauru]

well horry accomplished what he wanted to do, he got one of the suns stars to get suspended. this is the kind of shit that goes on with the spurs that causes people to call the spurs dirty.

also, whats with the nba? its like they want the spurs to be champions again. why is bowen even in this series anymore? i mean how bad do they have to beat up on nash before the nba takes real action against the spurs? sure they suspend horry, but thats only cause they could not let that one slide. also horry is just a bit player on the spurs and the suns just lost one of thier big 3, and his replacement. they pretty much just handed the series over to the spurs, when really, bowen should have already been gone. hell he should be gone now, with duncan.

[---]

If theres a blowout in game 7, it could get ugly. The losing team already knows they have lost and a) The Spurs will probably pull some punk move and start a fight, or b) The Suns will want payback for everything that's happened, overly physical game = altercations.

Damn no tolerance rule causes more problems than it solves.

[1CenT]

If theres a blowout in game 7, it could get ugly. The losing team already knows they have lost and a) The Spurs will probably pull some punk move and start a fight, or b) The Suns will want payback for everything that's happened, overly physical game = altercations.

Damn no tolerance rule causes more problems than it solves.

I agree, it can get ugly...

I don't see how the suns can play next game, they really have to play SMALL ball and try to force the Spurs to play a little smaller

Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Marion, Kurt

Kurt HAS to stay out of foul trouble, i don't see any1 else defending Duncan...

They might have to double team him if they play Marion or James Jones on him...

However Angry Suns @ home will be burning hot... this will give them a chance, but Spurs are a great and cheap team... Unless they flatter or Suns shoot like 60% + Suns play with incredible energy on def, Suns won't stand a chance.

Lets hope this series goes to 7...

[Matt]

Duncan is CLEARLY on the court...past the damn 3-point line! This is a blatant fucking double standard and I don't understand how the NBA expects basketball fans to accept this decision. Utterly ridiculous.

but there is no altercation here.

this game is mental just as it is physical.......Horry committed a flagrant, big deal happens all the time and nothing comes of it. Stoudemire though decided to be a dumbass and leaves the bench. No one else to blame but Stoudemire.

[el badman]

The Suns are gonna be fired up at home for game 5, and even if his stats aren't necessarily impressive, Horry is really gonna be missed for his defense and his 3s, so I'm not sure this is completely ruining the whole series.
Next two games are gonna be interesting for sure...
Still, some NBA rules should probably be altered and made more flexible

[Dro]

If theres a blowout in game 7, it could get ugly. The losing team already knows they have lost and a) The Spurs will probably pull some punk move and start a fight, or b) The Suns will want payback for everything that's happened, overly physical game = altercations.

Damn no tolerance rule causes more problems than it solves.

And this is ALL the result of the NBA not taking action against Bruce Bowen when they should have. Yeah, the playoffs are more physical, but a fine or something has to be given out when something like the kick to Amare's heel or the knee to Nash's groin occurs, so the players know the league won't take it. However, the league let it get out of hand. Same with the Jazz/Warriors series. There were some hard, unneccesary fouls committed by the Warriors where no punishment was dished by the league.

[BZ]

Just read the suspensions on Yahoo, and I gotta say, despite my dislike for Phoneix, the suspension was pretty unfair. I personally loathe Stu Jackson ( I used to be a Vancouver Grizzlie's fan ) and now I hate him even more. I wish that guy the absolute worst.

[Laxation]

this game is mental just as it is physical.......Horry committed a flagrant, big deal happens all the time and nothing comes of it. Stoudemire though decided to be a dumbass and leaves the bench. No one else to blame but Stoudemire.

Bad suspensions aside, this is true.

[magius]

pointing to the duncan/bowen incident is meaningless, there was no altercation in that incident. in relation, here it was obviously an altercation.

all this talk of conspiracy theories and league preferential treatment reminds me of all the excuses people made against the bulls. key word, bull.

horry deserved a suspension, but two is a bit harsh; it wasn't that much worse than baron davis's hit to fisher. one could even call it a 'conspiracy', - considering that that was fisher, and this was nash. but one doesn't.

amare and diaw broke the rule, its an automatic. they broke the rule verbatim, word for word - and its not a rule subject to subjectivity. there is no out. i don't know how you can argue it. other big names have been hit for less in the past.

[Sauru]

pointing to the duncan/bowen incident is meaningless, there was no altercation in that incident. in relation, here it was obviously an altercation.

all this talk of conspiracy theories and league preferential treatment reminds me of all the excuses people made against the bulls. key word, bull.

horry deserved a suspension, but two is a bit harsh; it wasn't that much worse than baron davis's hit to fisher. one could even call it a 'conspiracy', - considering that that was fisher, and this was nash. but one doesn't.

amare and diaw broke the rule, its an automatic. they broke the rule verbatim, word for word - and its not a rule subject to subjectivity. there is no out. i don't know how you can argue it. other big names have been hit for less in the past.

they said he got 2 for the foul on nash and then hitting bell on the shoulder afterwards

[Metsis]

Well, as it now officially is, the NBA supports the dirtier players... Phoenix should break out all-stars like Jumaine Jones, Pat Burke and the rest of the bench to go all Hulk Hogan on the Spurs back court of Parker and Ginobili... Phoenix wouldn't be risking a thing basically, as the guys aren't used at all, and if Parker or Ginobili or Duncan were to get hurt and "oh my frikkin god" would step on the court, would be gone from game 6... At least...

Since this is the thing that is rewarded... Lets take down a couple of Spurs players and see what Stu Jackson comes up with after that...

These rules aren't serving the greater good purpose of the game... They are just making the guys who play the rules better than the rest get away with practically a murder...

Break out the hockey sticks and start clotheslining people left and right with the un-used bench players... It's not like you will truly be hurt by losing those guys to suspensions...

And since this is not a one time incident... Nash bumping heads with Parker in game 1... Bowen kicking Amare in game 2... Bowen kicking Nash in the groin in game 3 and now Horry body checking Nash in game 4... Only the game 1 incident I can see as an accident, but the rest are nothing of the sort... The entire Spurs coaching staff should be relieved of duty and banned from the league for supporting this kind of behaviour... I guarrantee that the NBA commisioner Stern and his pal Stu are going to be facing a public upheaval if this does not result in any punishment for the team and players involved...

If you pay me 5 million dollars a year, I can come in and take out some star players from the other team from time to time, if it costs me 35k per "altercation"...

And this whole altercation thing is another thing... Why is this even in the rule book??? So if a player gets hurt, you can go in and help the guy, but if your guy gets into a violent situation, you need to stay on the bench??? Please... If this rule is going to go with the "zero tolerance" policy, the rule needs to be totally clear as well and ban players from heading to the court on all events... Zero tolerance should also go for the rule as well... And not leave some vague description of "altercation" in it... That just doesn't match the "zero tolerance" policy of the league... It just does not...

I was so disgusted when I read this this morning... Maybe Amare and Diaw saw Nash hurt and rushed to help him??? As Duncan and Bowen rushed to help Elson after he crashed with James Jones??? How do you know? Maybe they thought Steve is hurt? Has anyone asked why they went on the court? Has anyone asked why Duncan and Bowen got on the court in the other incident???

This is just a blatant "homie" decision from the league office and essentially a reward for Spurs playing a dirty game...

Mark my words... This thing will escalate extremely quickly and something ugly will be the result of this... And only after that, will Stern and Stu Jacks do the right move...

God how I'm disgusted with these rulings... This was a good series... This will end in fire... Someone is going to go down and hard in the next couple of games...

[Andrew]

It totally sucks, but there's no way Stu & Stern could have done otherwise wouldn't making a joke of their "no tolerance" policy.

Yeah, that's a load of crap. The DMV also says speeding is illegal, but first time offenders are usually given a warning ticket. Rules are meant to protect not punish.

That;'s all well and good, but the consequences of breaking the rules is generally some form of punishment; rules would do little to protect if there were no consequences for breaking them. The severity of those consequences is usually at the discretion of the governing body, in this case David Stern/Stu Jackson, or in your analogy the police officer. Such decisions are almost always made according to precedent and the league's ruling was predictable and hardly unprecedented. Of course, that doesn't mean we have to like it.

As far as letting things go because it's the Playoffs, I understand and agree with the sentiment to a point but you can't just throw all the rules out the window based on the importance of the game. It's important to let the players play and the games be decided on the court but the fact of the matter is there are rules in place and if you break them, you must suffer the consequences. The line has to be drawn somewhere; after all, if a player was to snap and assault an opponent, should he be excused because emotions run high in the Playoffs? Personally, I say no because while a player's feelings may be understandable rules shouldn't be waived because we're angry or upset.

Having said that I'm sorry to see it happen. I'd say most people would much rather see this series decided on the court with both teams at full strength rather than the series being remembered for ugly incidents or fans and journalists trying to mark it down with asterisks because of suspensions. Unfortunately the situation came to a point where the league is forced to take some kind of action based on its own precedents and the Suns - not to mention those of us who wanted to see a hard fought, evenly-matched series - suffer because of it.

[Jeffx]

Having said that I'm sorry to see it happen. I'd say most people would much rather see this series decided on the court with both teams at full strength rather than the series being remembered for ugly incidents or fans and journalists trying to mark it down with asterisks because of suspensions. Unfortunately the situation came to a point where the league is forced to take some kind of action based on its own precedents and the Suns - not to mention those of us who wanted to see a hard fought, evenly-matched series - suffer because of it.

I said the same thing ten years ago, Andrew.

[|On|Da|Low|]

I wish Euroleague games were broadcasted in America.

Please tell me your joking.

I nearly fell asleep during a euroleague game.

[el badman]

And since this is not a one time incident... Nash bumping heads with Parker in game 1...

TP got shaken up pretty badly too on that play, I don't think that's relevant here.