stockton or thomas?

[air gordon]

too lazy to start a poll....

but which do you think is the better pg?

some notable statistics:

Thomas (13 years): 19.2 PPG, 9.3 APG, 3.6 RPG, 1.9 SPG
2 NBA Championships (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)
12-time NBA All-Star (1982-1993)
2 time All-Star Game MVP (1984,1986)
3 time All NBA First-Team (1984, 1985, 1986)
2 time All NBA Second-Team (1983, 1987)
5th in assists, 12th in steals all-time

Stockton (19 years): 13.1 PPG, 10.5 APG, 2.7 RPG, 2.2 SPG
10-time NBA All-Star
1-time All-Star game co-MVP (1993)
2-time All-NBA First Team (1993-94 and 1994-95)
6-time All-NBA Second Team (1987-90, 1991-92, 1992-93, and 1995-96)
3-time All-NBA Third Team selection (1990-91, 1996-97, 1998-99)
5-time All-Defensive Second Team (1988-89, 1990-92, 1994-95, 1996-97)
NBA's all-time leader in assists and steals

possibly the best pg's in their era (not counting magic). different styles of play. stock's the better passer, zeke's the better scorer. one is the all time leader in assists/steals, the other has won 2 nba titles. the list goes on.
there are so many arguments on this one :
stockton is a great player, probably the most pure 'pg' and best passer to step on a nba court. much respect to him. but my gut feeling is to take zeke over stockton. deciding factors:
*thomas was able to lead his team to the championship twice. he had to go through the great celtics & lakers teams (and pretty good teams in portland and chicago). stockton could not do the same. dumars was isiah's best teammate while the rest of the cast were thugs or one trick poneys. whereas stock had malone, possibly the nba's greatest pf, and hornacek. i think if you swapped the players teams, the utah jazz would be much better with thomas then detroit would be with stock.
*thomas at his peak was probably a top 5 nba player behind larry, magic, mj. stockton wasn't even the best player on his team

[Jackal]

Thomas .

Overall I think Thomas is a better player...no disrespect to Stock, Stock, as you said was more of a passer then scorer, Thomas could do both if required (so cud Stock but you get my point)...To win you've gotta score points .

[Nurmipora]

If i had a crappy frachise then Thomas definetly. If i had a team with lots of shooters i think i would pick Stockton as he shares the ball better.

[Vins15]

Stockton passes about 92 percent of the time guarded by a player but if the lane is open he will take it to the lane...and he definatly want the ball at the clutch...if i want a team with good all around offence like the Clipps last year but needs a playmaker Stockton is the man but if i need more of a scorer and not a good offensive team like Denver i'd pick Thomas...he can fill out the scoring sheet imediatly plus he plays with all his heart out to win proven in the Laker series back in 91?...

[Robby]

he can fill out the scoring sheet imediatly plus he plays with all his heart out to win proven in the Laker series back in 91?...

Thomas didn't play his heart out in 91, that was in the 88 NBA Finals. In 1991, he showed that he is a sore loser and has no class by his actions near the end of Game 4 against the Bulls in the conference finals.

*thomas was able to lead his team to the championship twice. he had to go through the great celtics & lakers teams (and pretty good teams in portland and chicago). stockton could not do the same. dumars was isiah's best teammate while the rest of the cast were thugs or one trick poneys. whereas stock had malone, possibly the nba's greatest pf, and hornacek. i think if you swapped the players teams, the utah jazz would be much better with thomas then detroit would be with stock.

The great Celtics and Lakers team you speak of were not quite that good when they faced Detroit. The Lakers had to play role players in the Finals in 89 because of injuries and that's why the Pistons won the title so easily. In 1990, Detroit played a young, talented, but inexperienced Portland team but still Portland was near full strength so that's an acomplishment for Detroit.

dumars was isiah's best teammate while the rest of the cast were thugs or one trick poneys

Are you sure about that? You know, Detroit did have the defensive player of the year on their team in Dennis Rodman. They also had one of the best bench player in Vinnie Johnson. And Adrienne Dantley did score more points in the 80's than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson. I hardly think that Isiah's supporting cast were "thigs or trick pony's".

Stockton did have Malone, but there wasn't much help beyond that. When Hornacek came on to the Jazz, he and Stockton were just past their primes. Other than that, Utah had no other significant help. The only people who came close to being real help were Mark Eaton, Thurl Bailey, and Anotione Carr. However, all three guys were on the downside of their careers when they played with Stockton and Malone. I think if Stockton and Thomas switched places, Utah would have imploded because Thomas' and Malone's personalities would have never existed. Detroit would have been just as successful and would have shown much more class than Isiah did.

Also, just to remind everyone, John Stockton was good enough to start nearly all of his career, (even year 19). Isiah, however, near the end of his career was playing backup to Lindsey Hunter.

[Vins15]

Also, just to remind everyone, John Stockton was good enough to start nearly all of his career, (even year 19). Isiah, however, near the end of his career was playing backup to Lindsey Hunter.

but at least Hunter was decent at that time and there is almost no backup PG good enough to back up Stockton...

[CHAMP23]

Thomas easily.

Thomas averaged only one less assist and similar steals. At the same time he was one of the most unstoppable scorers ever. Won back-to-back Championships.

[Andrew]

Tough question. Stock was the better pure point guard, but Isiah was the better scoring point guard. To determine who was the better point guard, we'd have to determine which is the better role for a point guard to play: distributor and third option on offense, or first option on offense who also gets his teammates the ball?

By the rings, it would seem Isiah's style of play makes for a better PG. After all, he won back to back titles while Stock had back to back losses in the NBA Finals. The championship winning Bad Boy Pistons boast a better roster than the Jazz of the Stockton/Malone era, but the Jazz still had a team that could win 60+ games and matchup well with any team in the league.

So again it comes back to two different types of point guards. Stockton's place as all-time assists and steals leader and brilliant team play are answered by Isiah's two rings, and his superior scoring and rebounding numbers.

My instinct tells me that Stockton would be the most logical choice if I had to rank one over the other. After all, he is probably the best traditional point guard in league history, and he was able to maintain a standard of excellence throughout a lengthy career.

Also, just to remind everyone, John Stockton was good enough to start nearly all of his career, (even year 19). Isiah, however, near the end of his career was playing backup to Lindsey Hunter.

Isiah wasn't playing backup to Lindsey Hunter. The two played together for just one season, with Thomas starting 56 of the 58 games he played in. Stock came off the bench early in his career (though he managed some impressive numbers: 5.1 apg in 18.2 mpg in 1984/85; 7.4 apg in 23.6 mpg in 1985/86; 8.2 apg in 22.7 mpg in 1986/87). Thomas was a starter in 99% of his games, while Stock started 86% of his career games.

[air gordon]

robby brings up good points

In 1991, he showed that he is a sore loser and has no class by his actions near the end of Game 4 against the Bulls in the conference finals.

in an interview thomas admitted that he and certain pistons did so because larry and a few celtics did the same when the pistons eliminated them from the playoffs. the proverbial torch was being passed. classless move indeed. sure was surprised larry would do something like this as well.

Are you sure about that? You know, Detroit did have the defensive player of the year on their team in Dennis Rodman.

yes he had the defensive player of the year on his side. but again, stock had malone. stock played his whole career with arguably the best pf to play the game. not to mention malone was a pretty darn defender.

Adrienne Dantley did score more points in the 80's than Larry Bird or Magic Johnson.

i'll take your word that on the dantley thing but he was traded for aguirre midseason in 89-90 (the year the pistons won the first of back 2 back titles). aguirre was decent but if you look at the numbers, he was nowhere near the player he was in dallas and had lower stats in the playoffs compared to the reg season stats.

I hardly think that Isiah's supporting cast were "thigs or trick pony's"

i still stand by my statement. isiah's greatness and daly's coaching made the pistons look better then they really were. joe D had a hand it in also. if you look at the pistons roster outside of the previously mentioned- it's full of one trick poneys- either good defenders with average at best offensive skills or good offensive players with subpar defensive skills

think if Stockton and Thomas switched places, Utah would have imploded because Thomas' and Malone's personalities would have never existed.

that's one possibility but i think that coach sloan would make things work. besides, i think both would be happy knowing that teams couldn't focus on either of them since both can take over a game at any time.

Detroit would have been just as successful and would have shown much more class than Isiah did.

i disagree. would have been nice seeing laimbeer setting bonecrushing picks for stock but that detroit team was built around isiah. i can't imagine stock playing that same role on the team and flourishing. it wasn't in his nature to be the #1 man and in his career he didn't play that role. so i have my doubts about that[/quote]

[Stevan]

I would probably take Isiah Thomas for entertainment value, as for who the better player was, I haven't seen much apart from highlights of Thomas, and I have seen a bit of Stockon (zzzzzz).... so it's hard to say.
Championships are championships though, and if you play 19 years, with one of the best power forwards (best scoring pf) ever, a great coach, in a good system, with descent role players and the home support that Utah had over the years, and you can't win a championship, what the hell is going on?

[Swoosh]

Micheael Jordan (the best player ever was going on buddy )

[Stevan]

Micheael Jordan (the best player ever was going on buddy )

LOL well ok apart from 'foolish jordon', what happened the other 13 years? hehe...

[magius]

isiah by an inch.

question: would malone have been as 'great' if he hadnt had stockton and vice versa? would they have done as well under different circumstances iwth different teammates? i dont know about malone, but i think stockton would. if i had a team with a great scorer who can score when most needed and under pressure i would choose stockton over isiah. on the other hand isiah had the ability to score those points, AND could involve his teammates. tough choice....

[wangster]

um... can anyone enlighten me by answering a question? Exactly what did Isiah Thomas do after the 1991 series against the Bulls?

[Robby]

Quote:
Also, just to remind everyone, John Stockton was good enough to start nearly all of his career, (even year 19). Isiah, however, near the end of his career was playing backup to Lindsey Hunter.


Isiah wasn't playing backup to Lindsey Hunter. The two played together for just one season, with Thomas starting 56 of the 58 games he played in. Stock came off the bench early in his career (though he managed some impressive numbers: 5.1 apg in 18.2 mpg in 1984/85; 7.4 apg in 23.6 mpg in 1985/86; 8.2 apg in 22.7 mpg in 1986/87). Thomas was a starter in 99% of his games, while Stock started 86% of his career games.

You're right Andrew, I'm not quite sure why I thought Isiah backed up Hunter. However, I do remember Isiah on an NBA on NBC broadcast in 1998 saying he knew it was time to retire becuase the Pistons were starting Lindsey Hunter over him.

Thomas easily.

Thomas averaged only one less assist and similar steals. At the same time he was one of the most unstoppable scorers ever. Won back-to-back Championships.

Thomas' assists averages are closer to Stockton's because John played much longer and didn't play as many minutes near the end of his career but the games still factored into the average. I have an idea: let's compare their career assists and points per 48 minutes and see who was more productive.

Stockton: 15.9 assists per 48 minutes
Thomas: 12.2 assists per 48 minutes

Stockton: 20 points per 48 minutes
Thomas: 25 points per 48 minutes

So Stockton averaged almost 4 more assists per 48 minutes and only averaged 5 less points per 48 minutes than Isiah. And Stockton was never the first option on the Jazz, in fact many times he was the second or third option on offense. Isiah was almost always the first option when he played. Seems to me that Stockton is a lot closer to Isiah in scoring abilities than many people in here gave him credit for.

Stock scored 19,711 points while taking 13,658 shots and shooting a very impressive 51.5 % for his entire career.

Zeek scored 18,822 points while taking 15,904 shots and shooting a lower 45.2% for his career.

I'd say Stockton is better passer than Isiah for sure and maybe even a better scorer. Oh, and Stockton also averaged 27+ ppg in one playoffs so more proof that he can score.

Quote:
Are you sure about that? You know, Detroit did have the defensive player of the year on their team in Dennis Rodman.

yes he had the defensive player of the year on his side. but again, stock had malone. stock played his whole career with arguably the best pf to play the game. not to mention malone was a pretty darn defender.

Yeah but Isiah did have a great defender, good scorer, and NBA Finals MVP in Joe Dumars. And Rodman is another Hall of Fame player that helped Isiah out. And Dantley, Aguire, and Vinnie Johnson may not have been in their primes in the very late 80's but they were still better than any bench player that the Jazz had, maybe with the exception of Antoine Carr,

[Andrew]

um... can anyone enlighten me by answering a question? Exactly what did Isiah Thomas do after the 1991 series against the Bulls?

The Pistons walked off the court after being swept 4-0 in the Eastern Finals, and refused to shake hands with the Bulls' players.

You're right Andrew, I'm not quite sure why I thought Isiah backed up Hunter. However, I do remember Isiah on an NBA on NBC broadcast in 1998 saying he knew it was time to retire becuase the Pistons were starting Lindsey Hunter over him.

An odd remark for Thomas to make, since the stats show otherwise...perhaps he meant he knew it was time to retire when the Pistons were prepping Hunter to be their starting point guard since that is what was happening. Hunter started 26 games that year, with Isiah coming off the bench twice (and not appearing in 24 of those games).

question: would malone have been as 'great' if he hadnt had stockton and vice versa? would they have done as well under different circumstances iwth different teammates? i dont know about malone, but i think stockton would. if i had a team with a great scorer who can score when most needed and under pressure i would choose stockton over isiah. on the other hand isiah had the ability to score those points, AND could involve his teammates. tough choice....

Ah, a question that is often asked but always interesting to discuss.

I don't doubt that Stock would be successful with another great scorer in Malone's place. The pick and roll might not have worked as well with another player, but Stock knew how to get players the ball. As successful? Well, only one player has scored more points than the Mailman, but he doesn't have the highest scoring average in NBA history. I'm sure if any of the other great scorers in history had Stock on their team they would be just as prolific at the offensive end, if not more so.

I'm not so certain about the Mailman. Whereas Stock could form a formidable duo with any potent offensive player, I don't think Malone would be second in career points had he not played alongside a guy like Stockton. As a distributor, Stock could be inserted into almost any system and still produce the same sort of numbers. If Malone was paired up with other dominant offensive players (as he will be this season), his offensive output would not have been so impressive.

[Robby]

wangster wrote:
um... can anyone enlighten me by answering a question? Exactly what did Isiah Thomas do after the 1991 series against the Bulls?


The Pistons walked off the court after being swept 4-0 in the Eastern Finals, and refused to shake hands with the Bulls' players.

Just to be clear, it wasn't all of the Pistons who walked off. I know Joe Dumars stayed on the floor and congratualted the Bulls and a few other Pistons did as well. However, Isiah and Lambeer walked off the court for sure.

As for the Stockton and Malone question, I agree with Andrew that Stock would have been just as successful without Malone because I've seen him distribute the ball very well when Malone was on the bench for long stretches. If Malone had another pass first teammate like John, then he would have done very well but would not have achieved the offensive numbers he has now.

[LeBron James]

stock

[Andrew]

wangster wrote:
um... can anyone enlighten me by answering a question? Exactly what did Isiah Thomas do after the 1991 series against the Bulls?


The Pistons walked off the court after being swept 4-0 in the Eastern Finals, and refused to shake hands with the Bulls' players.

Just to be clear, it wasn't all of the Pistons who walked off. I know Joe Dumars stayed on the floor and congratualted the Bulls and a few other Pistons did as well. However, Isiah and Lambeer walked off the court for sure.

Thanks for the clarification. I had a feeling Dumars wouldn't have done something so unsportsmanlike, but I wasn't sure.

[Fresh8]

Well...statistically Thomas was great!

But I go with John cause he made his team better and it will be good to see how Karl does without him! I wonder if he'll do bad??

But didn't Stockton play 5 seasons without missing a game...wait...maybe longer! 14.5apg is awesome and he is white(Not being racist...but admit this! Who is as great as stockton who is white...yeah there are some but not many!)

[Andrew]

But didn't Stockton play 5 seasons without missing a game...wait...maybe longer! 14.5apg is awesome and he is white(Not being racist...but admit this! Who is as great as stockton who is white...yeah there are some but not many!)

Larry Bird.

[Robby]

Stockton played 17 full seasons. In the 1997-98 season he played 64 games and he played 78 games in the 1989 -90 season. There is pretty much no player left in the NBA (except maybe the Mailman) who can touch these types of numbers.

[Robby]

But didn't Stockton play 5 seasons without missing a game...wait...maybe longer! 14.5apg is awesome and he is white(Not being racist...but admit this! Who is as great as stockton who is white...yeah there are some but not many!)

Larry Bird.

Jerry West and Pete Maravich weren't bad either.

[Andrew]

George Mikan and Kevin McHale are two more I'd include in that list.

[CHAMP23]

I'd rather have Chris Mullin (in his Dream Team prime) on my team than Stockton.