Kobe Bryant Suspended One Game

[dizzle]

well its not like he does it all the time..he does it when he gets blocked..looks pretty funky to fling your hand at someones face

[LakersRule24]

Speaking of the follow through, Kobe has done that many times in the past without suspension.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY9itGGtWcI

[LakersRule24]

well its not like he does it all the time..he does it when he gets blocked..looks pretty funky to fling your hand at someones face

It's his natural instinct to do that. I'm sure it's a lot of other people's instinct too, to flail your arms around when you get blocked, especially when you got hit on the head as well.

Sorry for double post.

[BigKaboom2]

If you're sorry for the double post, why not just delete it and edit the first one?

Regardless, it's not "following through" if your arm doesn't move according to the flight of the ball whatsoever. What you describe is Kobe pretending to get fouled when nobody touches him, also known as flopping. I wish the NBA would give out technicals for flopping in similar fashion to soccer, and I think it's hilarious that Kobe is able to "accidentally" hit people in the face with his fist and try to justify it.

[gergerjai]

I never liked Kobe's way of creating contact and thus a foul in the air, he initiates it and exaggerates it too obviously sometimes, but at least that's better than Wade's no contact flop tactics.
I think that he intentionally flail on his follow-through backward, he does that throughout his career that Jackson said he would put about 50 clips of Kobe shooting his shot with his arms going out like that, but accidentally hit the defender in his face. It would be more than appropriate to call a loose-ball or a flagrant, so other players wont think that they can get away with contacts like that by concealing the hit with their moves. But to suspend a player for contact that happened unintentionally, that would seem too harsh to me, and it would be a slide if the league office is to be consistent on every other player.
You may say that it's intentional and a cheap shot, but wouldn't the players who got hit and the refs in those 2 games have a better idea of what happened?
Both Ginobili and Jaric said that Bryant hit them by accident and shouldn't be suspended, and Bryant was just called for a total of one loose-ball foul in the two incidents.
What they saw was just a player going for the ball and the foul, a pathetic superstar trying to win a lost game.

And in response to the article in Andrew's post:
Haha, I know I'm going to make myself look stupid to go against your post, but I still don't think that's one that summed it up nicely.
It was all about hypothetical, a large part of it was written assuming he hit the players in purpose, and assuming he hit the players only because they were no star, and assuming he wouldn't have done it if it was Davis. So he thought Ginobili was nothing significant as a player and below the level of Ricky Triple Doubles Davis? And what if Kobe actually hit Davis in his face? Oh, he's punishing Davis for performing so well against his team? And all of these were still doubtful even when the assumption that it all happened intentionally was right, which is still not proven. Is that something that's gonna sum the whole incident up? Or do you still think it is?

[LakersRule24]

If you're sorry for the double post, why not just delete it and edit the first one?

Regardless, it's not "following through" if your arm doesn't move according to the flight of the ball whatsoever. What you describe is Kobe pretending to get fouled when nobody touches him, also known as flopping. I wish the NBA would give out technicals for flopping in similar fashion to soccer, and I think it's hilarious that Kobe is able to "accidentally" hit people in the face with his fist and try to justify it.

When you lose the ball on a dribble, you would flail your arms around in a circle up high. Same here, except you flail your arms and it goes down since you're shooting.

[Andrew]

What happened to the days of "Man's basketball," where you don't get suspended for even a clothesline? joejam99 has forgotten those days, only to go against Kobe.

Suspensions for excessive contact have been the standard for a long time. As far as joejam "forgetting those days, only to go against Kobe", I would suggest that in all fairness your point of view is just as biased given you are obviously a dedicated and loyal Kobe fan. That's your right of course and more power to you for standing by your favourite player but it doesn't necessarily make your point of view correct.

so fans that paid $250 for courtside seats actually get to see Kobe on their ONLY chance in the year. This should only be done for 1-game suspensions.

What kind of message does that send though? That normal rules and procedure don't apply to you as long as you're talented enough? That if you're good enough, you can decide how and when you are punished whereas everyone else has to do what they're told?

I don't deny it's disappointing for the fans, as I said I missed out on seeing him play in that Bucks game too and while I enjoyed seeing Bogut have a good game it would've been a more exciting contest with Kobe out there. But if you want to enforce the rules fairly then you can't afford him any special treatment. Fans constantly whine about Dwyane Wade getting special treatment, yet Kobe is expected to be above the rules? It can't work like that.

Haha, I know I'm going to make myself look stupid to go against your post, but I still don't think that's one that summed it up nicely.
It was all about hypothetical, a large part of it was written assuming he hit the players in purpose, and assuming he hit the players only because they were no star, and assuming he wouldn't have done it if it was Davis. So he thought Ginobili was nothing significant as a player and below the level of Ricky Triple Doubles Davis? And what if Kobe actually hit Davis in his face? Oh, he's punishing Davis for performing so well against his team? And all of these were still doubtful even when the assumption that it all happened intentionally was right, which is still not proven. Is that something that's gonna sum the whole incident up? Or do you still think it is?

I think you missed the point of my post (or rather four words in my post). Yes, there was a hypothetical situation involving Ricky Davis and yes, suggesting that Kobe swung his arm in a deliberate attempt to injure Ginobili and Jaric is hypothetical as well (personally, I don't think he intended to cause harm) but it would seem obvious that the flail itself is intentional. Even the defense of his actions as being "his normal follow through" suggest the action, if not the consequence, is intentional because if it's part of his normal follow through then he obviously intended to do it. I'm not suggesting his intention was to injure his opponent in either case but unfortunately that's what happened.

Flailing to draw contact and a call is certainly nothing new, plenty of savvy veterans have done it throughout history (it was no surprise to see Reggie Miller defending it during the TNT pre-game show today) but as far as veteran tricks go it is a cheap one. Before the Kobe Hater Patrol comes after me, let me again state that it's a technique a lot of great scorers have used. That's why it's hard to buy Kobe as a victim because he's employing these tactics, though he's criticised others (such as Raja Bell and Bruce Bowen, as noted by Wojnarowski) for stooping to sneaky tricks of the trade.

That is the sentiment and point Adrian Wojnarowski was making in that article. He wasn't saying Kobe is doing it to injure other players and neither am I. He is asserting that Kobe is employing a technique that many have before him but his usage has been too blatant, an assertion that it not without merit. As it said before, the defense of this being a regular part of his game actually reinforces the fact that the flail is intentional, just not the outcome in these two situations. That's the sentiment I agree with, that's the sentiment I feel he summed up.

If your argument is with the wording I used in that sentence, then let me put it another way. I agree with Adrian Wojnarowski's suggestion that Kobe is using a veteran trick that he's been caught out on because of a couple of incidents where he's unfortunately initiated contact with his opponent's face; an unintentional outcome of an intentional act. I also believe it would be hypocritical if Kobe continued to criticise (or "wag his finger and bemoan the tactics" as Wojnarowski put it) the veteran tricks of the trade defenders like Bruce Bowen and Raja Bell have been known to utilise. I felt that point of view was summed up concisely in the article and need not concern itself with the hypothetical Ricky Davis situation, a seperate (but admittedly related) poin that the article tried to raise.

Now then...Kobe is set to return to action against the Sixers tomorrow, a game I'll actually get to see since ESPN Australia is showing it. It wouldn't surprise me if he went off for 50 points as he has a habit of asserting himself after suspensions or games missed due to injury. Given that a depleted Lakers team squaring off against this year's Sixers would likely be a fairly mundane contest, I'm certainly not heartbroken that he'll be back on the court.

[gergerjai]

Yea maybe I just over-simplified your point, but I'm still not buying the idea that this is worth a suspension. Yes he's using the veteran trick and he's using it intentionally, but as you mentioned, it's a technique a lot of great scorers have used and you are not going to suspend someone because of these intentional tricks, you only suspend these player when they cause the injuries intentionally, which was never proven in this case.

I don't even think that his 'intentionally used trick' was used to hit the other guys' faces intentionally, and injuries caused by accident deserve nothing more than a foul or a flagrant foul in a basketball game.

How many faces have Mutombo's elbows caught over the years? Wouldnt Kobe have much less control of what his elbow will hit in such situation, when he's in the air and just got his shot blocked and thus his body movement altered, than Mutombo on the floor swinging his accepted elbows everywhere? I mean, he wasn't even looking at that way.

And about this being a cheap trick, it would have never been called "cheap" should the defender not come from his right. To exagerate your motion you're going to flail your arms sideway, and normally he would have hit nobody as he'll be facing the players contesting his shots in front of him. Thats why we never had a problem with it before the two incidents, and thats why I don't believe this is a trick that's used to punish or to hurt his opponents, or anything to be criticised as much as the tricks used by the likes of Bruce Bowen.

P.S. I'll have to admit that I mostly involved in talks on the Lakers, but that's only because I'm more exposed to information related to this team, which I can contribute a little more, and I'm not a dedicated Kobe fanboy. There are players I think the Lakers would benefit from trading Kobe for them. I just don't think the NBA dealed with the whole thing appropriately.

[Andrew]

Yea maybe I just over-simplified your point, but I'm still not buying the idea that this is worth a suspension. Yes he's using the veteran trick and he's using it intentionally, but as you mentioned, it's a technique a lot of great scorers have used and you are not going to suspend someone because of these intentional tricks, you only suspend these player when they cause the injuries intentionally, which was never proven in this case.

I guess the NBA felt it was necessary because Ginobili and Jaric came to harm due to the accidental contact. They'll suspend a player for less, such as having a punch thrown at them (regardless of whether they retaliate or not) so while a suspension seems a bit much, it is pretty much in line with how they usually deal with incidents involving contact they feel to be excessive.

It's always a controversial move to suspend a player for an incident that didn't involve an ejection or flagrant foul after later reviewing it on tape but in the league's defense, the extent of certain incidents isn't always apparent to the referees so it may be appropriate to review the incident again on tape. Of course, the downside of that is that the replay can also exaggerate what happened and conflicts with the notion of the referee's decision being final.

I can certainly appreciate where criticism of the suspension comes from and I don't entirely disagree with it because I felt Andres Nocioni was unjustly suspended for one game a couple of years ago for an incident that didn't involve an ejection. The same can be said for other players who received similar suspensions. However, it is a ruling they make fairly consistently which is why I disagree with the "poor Kobe, they're picking on him" sentiment that we've been seeing. He's not the only one who's had this kind of ruling go against him.

And about this being a cheap trick, it would have never been called "cheap" should the defender not come from his right. To exagerate your motion you're going to flail your arms sideway, and normally he would have hit nobody as he'll be facing the players contesting his shots in front of him. Thats why we never had a problem with it before the two incidents, and thats why I don't believe this is a trick that's used to punish or to hurt his opponents, or anything to be criticised as much as the tricks used by the likes of Bruce Bowen.

Labelling it a "cheap trick" does give it negative connotations that are a bit harsh. When I referred to it as such, I was comparing it to other means of drawing contact, such as simply going hard at the basket and absorbing the contact, which is certainly something Kobe does as well. Creating contact in an effort to draw a foul, especially by flailing, seems like a cheap trick in comparison because it involves a bit of acting. It's not completely unlike flopping to draw the charge; it's a legitimate technique (albeit one that the league is looking at banning) but it involves more acting and exaggeration than basketball skill or pure grit. Neither technique is dirty though they're a bit cheaper than doing it the hard way. That's all I meant by the label.

I do agree it's not a technique intended to cause harm but as I said before unfortunately that was the outcome and the league reacted according to their usual standard.

[LakersRule24]

Well isn't this an unnatural basketball move(Miller elbowing Kobe's face 38 second mark)? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtIZf-rDu1w

Exact same thing, Miller does an "unnatural basketball move."

[Andrew]

The fact that Miller wasn't suspended for his elbow was certainly a mistake. If I had to suggest a reason, I'd say that the league made an exception because the incident took place in the paint where physical play is commonplace whereas contact on the perimeter (or indeed elbows thrown to "send a message" as it were) appear to be much more blatant. I don't disagree the decision not to suspend Miller was a bad one, I'm just offering a suggestion as to why such a ruling would have been made.

In any case, whether Miller's move was "unnatural" or not isn't being disputed here. You have argued however that Kobe swinging his arm out is a natural/normal part of his follow through, while replays specifically shown during the Lakers/Sixers game today in relation to that assertion have proven otherwise. The Lakers claim to have tape that shows Kobe doing the same thing "fifty times" though that's hardly proof either. Kobe has shot the ball 1665 times this season. If that was part of his regular shooting form, the Lakers should be able to claim a significantly greater number of examples of Kobe swinging his arm like that than a mere fifty.

As I said in my previous post, flailing to get a call is a perfectly legitimate technique. Unfortunately for Kobe on these two occasions he happened to accidentally catch his opponents in the face which drew the wrong kind of attention to the contact that was initiated, resulting in the league taking action against him in a ruling that is hardly unprecedented but not without its criticisms.

[Matt]

i guess i haven't commentend on the issue.....ok, what did these 2 incidents have in common?

1. Kobe was blocked
2. the defender came from the side

players who take it to the hoop and get stripped flail both arms just as Kobe did.

[Andrew]

That's true. However, they don't generally follow through on the shot as normal then swing their arm back and to the side. That would suggest a player trying to draw a foul rather than his shooting motion being impeded by the ball being stripped.

[Drex]

It's different when you're attacking the hoop. The arm flailing is a lot different to putting your arm a bit to the side to protect yourself from being blocked.

I think Kobe's being kinda stupid. If he's trying to draw contact, the Reggie move would be a lot more appropiate (is that even a word?) since a slight contact with the legs when you're jumping screws up your balance, so he'll have a much better chance to draw the foul. In those videos that were posted, he's trying to exaggerate and he was lucky he didn't hit anybody else, because it is a foul and deserves a suspension, IMO.

[nylia]

now this is just plain stupid:

the NBA is being a wuss.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2795315

this is one reason why a lot of people think that basketball is a game for sissies (WHICH OF COURSE I DO NOT AGREE WITH )

[dan_suth]

now this is just plain stupid:

the NBA is being a wuss.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2795315

this is one reason why a lot of people think that basketball is a game for sissies (WHICH OF COURSE I DO NOT AGREE WITH )

anyone got a video of this?

[nylia]

yea. i actually want to see this one too.

[Andreas Dahl]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=2013863638

[BigKaboom2]

I saw that one on Sportscenter - Kobe got angry that Korver was playing him so tight and gave him a jolt. I don't know how many times he's going to do this before he figures out that instant replay exists.

[Jackal]

This is seriously becoming a load of shit. I'm not one to argue anything the NBA calls in most cases let alone discuss it, they did it, they did it is my stance in most cases. But this is just becoming absurd. It's a contact sport, it'll happen.

Man, the league is so pussified it isn't even normal. No wonder every big man is running away from the inside and hoisting up three's left and right. It's almost illegal to play physical ball now days. The way the league has become, the yesteryear Kings teams would've been Champs every fucking year.

Dude, Karl Malone who is so respected because he missed such less games in his carreer would have a lot more missed games in this day & age. The man threw elbows like tomorrow would never come.

The more the league just fucks Kobe over, the more I want him to explode on them. This coming from a person that has a very love/hate relationship with Bryant.

The league keeps pussifying itself like this, soon enough I'll stop watching it. If I wanted to watch a non contact sport, I'd setlle for the Euroleague or some shit like Golf.

[nylia]

yea. so stupid. if mj was playing today, he'd avg 50pts. but then again, he might not because he won't be able to play the way he used to play (e.g. he would getting called for sissy fouls on defense)

also, pippen said this before, if they had these kinds of rules in the past, he won't be able to dominate defensively..

i don't like kobe... but this is bs. now every single player in the nba will just try to get an elbow or two from kobe to get him out of ball games...

[nylia]

article updated:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2795315

dumbass stu jackson.. he will be forever hated here in vancouver.
sole reason why vancouver sucked

[Sauru]

i think kobe just hates white people. seems everytime a white dude tries to guard him he elbows them in the face lol.


seriously though, i think he deserves to be suspended. infact i feel they need to call more flagrent fouls on players who flail thier arms trying to draw a foul. its one thing if the player was actually hit and that caused his arm to flail but most of the time someone gets hit they are hit on the top of thier arm which would go against the flailing of the arms upward.

i hear people saying "what happened to mans basketball". i wanna know the same thing. since when did a grown man have to throw his arms like a little girl to try and get a foul called?

people say others like karl malone and whoever always elbowed. thats also true, and they too should have been called for it and in malones case suspended, alot. how many times did malone throw a knee into someones chest while shooting? just cause they let people get away with shit in the past is no reason to do it now. in the past players didnt play pussy ball and try to draw a foul every single time down the court without even attempting a shot. how many times do you see a player slash, dive into someone, then throw the ball wildly into the air while flailing thier arms like a child and then get a free trip to the line. and if they dont then they start to cry like a child about it.

kobe fully deserves to be suspended. i dont agree with the first one but clearly he is showing a history here. the only real injustice in my opinion is that more players are not getting flagrent fouls for hitting players while they flail about like an idiot to get a call

[Jackal]

seriously though, i think he deserves to be suspended. infact i feel they need to call more flagrent fouls on players who flail thier arms trying to draw a foul. its one thing if the player was actually hit and that caused his arm to flail but most of the time someone gets hit they are hit on the top of thier arm which would go against the flailing of the arms upward.

You're saying it as if it's a new thing. Players overreact to get calls. They are just doing what they're supposed to do. Get points. You shouldn't be blaming them for trying to pursue something that has previously (and currently) resulted in free points. If you want to bitch about someone, bitch about the refree's. They are the ones that award the dramatics so that players like Bryant & Wade (to name a few) resort to the dramatics. Right?

i hear people saying "what happened to mans basketball". i wanna know the same thing. since when did a grown man have to throw his arms like a little girl to try and get a foul called?

Since the ref's actually call every frigging touch call. So yeah, if you're going to have every touch called, why not accentuate it with a few body spasms? At the end, winning is what counts right?

just cause they let people get away with shit in the past is no reason to do it now. in the past players didnt play pussy ball and try to draw a foul every single time down the court without even attempting a shot.

They played tough ball before because these touch calls weren't called. The ref told you to suck it up and play on. Now days you breathe on someone too hard and it's a foul. Smart coaches tell their players to benefit from those situations. I don't understand why the player is hated instead of the people that actually reward the behaviour. I know a lot of fans hated Divac for flopping against Shaq a lot, but if you don't look at it as a Shaq fan, it's a brilliant strategy. It got Shaq in to foul trouble and gave them a chance to win. It's all about winning. If you want to be pissed, be pissed at the people that allow the game to be pussified which in turn leads to players trying their level best to profit from the situation.

[Sauru]

hey i am with ya on blaming the refs, well more my blame goes to the top and mr stern. the thing is though, todays players are not as good, they simply cannot score like the teams of the past so that is why stern is doing whatever he can to make the game seem better. the problem with it is he is actually slowing the game down. to be honest i rather see scores in the 70's every night without all the stupid play stopping pussy fouls than scores in the 90's cause they let the star players get 10 free points from the line.the nba as a whole is just in a messed up state. sure you will hear over and over on tv how great the game is and how great the young players are but it is untrue. you are right that it is the refs and imo sterns(among others) fault, but the blame also rests with the players and the players union. of course nothing will change so long as they keep making massive amounts of money from hyping and catering to players such as wade and kobe(btw i think kobe deserves his kudos alot more than wade)