Official MVP Talk

[Axel]

So what if everyone else is shooting bad? That's why Steve Nash is more valuable than Kobe. He puts them in better situations so their field goal % is higher.

And actually, Kobe is tied for 5th highest FG% on his own team.

[J@3]

He puts them in better situations so their field goal % is higher.

That's because he's the point guard, his job is to distribute the ball to the player who is most likely to hit the shot. That's not Kobe's job, as you've recognised. If you want to blame anyone blame Smush or something.

And actually, Kobe is tied for 5th highest FG% on his own team.

Wouldn't that indicate his team mates are in better situations, so their field goal % is higher Besides, Nash is 3rd on his team... the Lakers as a team only shoot 2% worse.

[zmac]

Im with Steve Kerr on this one

[TRUball]

Im with Steve Kerr on this one

Didn't he say Shawn Marion was his MVP?

Edit: Nevermind, that was Scottie Pippen, my bad.

Edit:

That brings up another point, if your team has 2 players getting consideration for being the MVP, how could either one win it? If you have two possible league MVPs on your team, you damn well should be getting as many wins as the Suns are. Oh wait though, I guess having Shawn Marion being a MVP candidate is because of Steve Nash throwing him the occasional alley-oop i.e. making him a better player, am I right?

[powerhoward85]

So why say things like "Kobe doesn't make his teammates better" if it's not his job? The point is, there are probably 3 or so other point guards in the NBA who could've stepped into Nash's slot at the Suns and had the same impact. You'll not find another SG in the entire league who could do that with the Lakers.

I'm sure a healthy T mac or Lebron can do that.

How? He can only play 1 position and he couldn't defend a 6 year old, let alone any other player on the court.

Will that 6 year old be in the draft this summar?????????

I think I'd take Kobe's extra 16ppg over Nash's extra 6apg... but as you say, Kobe is a scoring guard so why compare him with a guy who's job it is to distribute?

That's because kobe plays longer minutes and taken more shots. If Nash plays more mins i'm sure his states can goes up too. And by the way, an assist lead to at least a +2 point for the team. If you really want to compare, make it 6 extra assist x 2(not counting 3 pointers) = 12 points compared to kobe's extra 16 point with extra 6 mins of a game. That would be fair.

Jordan shot 46% in 1998 when he won the MVP award, 23% from 3 and only shot 4 shots per game less than Kobe while averaging 7ppg less. Want to take it off him and give it to Gary Payton or Tim Hardaway?

The defense in the past is for sure tougher than that of now. Don't forget the hand checking rule that does not exist at all in the past. Unlike the past, now you simply cant touch a player when he's trying to shoot a ball outside the arc. That's why kobe in fact have a lot of easier 3s than Jordan.

By the way, as far as many are saying nash does not deserve mvp because he still has marion on his team to help him, then jordan should never wins mvp except for 1987-1988 season because there is always pippen beside him. Karl malone shouldn't too.

"Two of you, hand out your mvps NOW!!!!"

[magius]

if you're going to say that d'antoni is the real mvp of the suns, then i'm going to say phil jackson is the real mvp of the lakers.

i think nash should be the mvp, but it is a close race. I don't care if i do or don't remember kobe's season more than i do nash's. bill russell won the mvp during wilt's 50 ppg season and of course people remember wilt's season more - but it doesnt change the fact that it was the right choice. This is not the memorabilia award.

kobe is scoring 35 per... so what? wilt averaged 50 he didnt win the mvp. mj averaged 37 he didnt win the mvp. You know what? I don't remember the last mvp to win the mvp with a team record under 600. Thats because you can't just be valuable in relation to your team, your team has to be valuable in relation to the league. There are plenty of players in college basketball that put up big numbers but don't win poy and thats because everyone knows that their team is not a contender. If your team is not truly a competitive contender how valuable are you really? Maybe on the surface and thats it. the fact is any marginal player can put up good numbers on a shit team. kobe is not a marginal player, its only expected that he put up spectacular numbers on a crap team. But who cares? Its still a crap team. Do you pat a 40 year old harvard graduate on the back for getting straight A's in a grade 2 special needs class?

[Matt]

wow, Jae is owning everyone.

Anyways, the best player in the league = Kobe Bryant.....no contest. But, he's not my choice for MVP.

People are making the argument of what team X would be without player Y. Well that doesn't work because you can't possibly accurately predict how the team would play. Using games where the said player misses a game doesn't work either because the team has to go through an adjustment period to playing w/o him.

OK, so the Lakers would be balls w/o him, as would Cleveland w/o LB, Phx w/o Nash.....BUT even with those guys these teams are NOT elite. Lakers probably won't make it out of Rnd 1, Cleveland might but that's as far as it goes, and Phoenix might even make it to the WCF, but that's more because they avoid Dallas in Rnd 2.

The MVP IMO, should be from an elite team.....these are Dallas, Detroit, SAS.

SAS have no MVP candidates.....Duncan hasn't had it all year, Parker faded. Dallas has Nowitzki & Detroit has Billups.

Both guys have been consistant and brought it from Game 1 and thus are my logical choices.

Here's my argument for Billups (not saying that i'd vote for him) because the arguments i've read on ESPN and other sources are very weak.

OK, Billups is avering 18.5 and 8.5.....both career highs. But the real number, that is important here is that his assist/TO ratio is 4.11!!!! that's an amzing figure. #1 in the league. (whereas Nash doesn't even have a 3 ratio).

Now people say that Billups can't win because the Pistons have 3 other All-Stars. Well, Ben Wallace All-Star status has nothing to do with Billups, since Ben does his damage defensively. There's a reason why Hamilton is having his best year ever.....it''s with the help of Billups who gets him easy opportunities, hits him perfectly off screens with passes (something no one else on the roster can do) and finds him for those open 3's.

W/o Billups Pistons would struggle badly. Sure he has a great supporting cast but he's the one that makes them go, not the other way around.

Nowitzki likewise is as important to Dallas.

Basically, my vote would depend on the overall team record, the role the player plays, the way he plays offense & DEFENSE. (if only Kobe could get his team more wins he'd have the award in the bag)

[TRUball]

kobe is scoring 35 per... so what? wilt averaged 50 he didnt win the mvp. mj averaged 37 he didnt win the mvp. You know what? I don't remember the last mvp to win the mvp with a team record under 600.

Kareem got MVP while leading the Lakers to a 40-42 season if I do remember correctly.

[magius]

you're right i think kareem did it twice. i did say i "can't remember" didn't I?

[TRUball]

you're right i think kareem did it twice. i did say i "can't remember" didn't I?

I know, I was just reminding you.

[gergerjai]

How? He can only play 1 position and he couldn't defend a 6 year old, let alone any other player on the court. Kobe can play 1, 2 and 3... he's capable of defending all of those players, and if need be he can create for his teammates aswell.

That reminds me that in one of the Lakers champ year Phil was asked to compare Kobe with MJ, the one thing he said Kobe was much superior is that he asked Kobe to do everything on the floor, to score, to set up play and facilitate and to defend, and Kobe just do everything so good that even beyond what he expect and require him to do. He said that he never ask MJ to facilitate others and MJ never played that role. Maybe this season they got Lamar to play that role and so Kobe is there just to score.

I'm sure a healthy T mac or Lebron can do that.

I doubt you know how T-Mac's Magic was.
Lebron is surrounded by Ilgauskas a former all-star, Gooden who some ppl considered him the best forward in the east last season, Larry Hughes for half of the season, and Flip Murray who broke out sometime in Seattle when Allen was out and is red hot shooting the ball, yet the cavs are just 5 games ahead the Lakers packed with Smush, Kwame and Cook WHILE being in the WEAKEST CONFERENCE EVER. What you are sure just doesnt sound convincing.

[powerhoward85]

I doubt you know how T-Mac's Magic was.
Lebron is surrounded by Ilgauskas a former all-star, Gooden who some ppl considered him the best forward in the east last season, Larry Hughes for half of the season, and Flip Murray who broke out sometime in Seattle when Allen was out and is red hot shooting the ball, yet the cavs are just 5 games ahead the Lakers packed with Smush, Kwame and Cook WHILE being in the WEAKEST CONFERENCE EVER. What you are sure just doesnt sound convincing.

Like Matt said, there is always adjustment period for every situation. Image LeBron have LA kind of teams for more than a year, he can adjust to that.

T-mac sure have that ability. He couldnt lead Magic to playoff because there isnt a good coach that runs a triangle play like LA now.

Given the adjustment period and the coach, it sounds logical. These 2 things are what LA lack last year in which kobe couldnt lead the team to playoff, it is jus the opposite of this year.

[J@3]

The Lakers ran the triangle for a large part of last season and still didn't make the play-offs.

[gergerjai]

And like what people say for Nash's case, I wont say it's only because of the system/the coach. A player is having a better season after switching to another system, would you say he isnt better or didnt improve just because of that? Nash thrives because he mesh well with the system, and so does Kobe. TMac just showed that he couldnt carry a team as well as Kobe does, and Lebron couldnt outachieve Kobe with a better team he has. It's just that simple.

[DB]

"Doesn't make his teammates better"


Michael jordan's assists per game in the triangle offence:

90-91 - 5.5 apg
91-92 - 6.1 apg
92-93 - 5.5 apg
94-95 - 5.3 apg
95-96 - 4.3 apg
96-97 - 4.3 apg
97-98 - 3.5 apg

[Cloudy]

I hate LeBron James so much now, every basketball site is saying he's the MVP! Fuck you LeBron. It's Kobe or Dirk!

[gergerjai]

Whoever said Mj didnt make his teammates better?

[benji]

What does Michael Jordan's assists per game have to do with making his teammates better?

Allow me to play point guard for 40 minutes a night on a team with Amare, Brand, Kobe and Wade and I will lead the league in assists. However, I will have done absolutely nothing to make those guys better.

[dada]

What does Michael Jordan's assists per game have to do with making his teammates better?

lol I was thinking the same damn thing. I was also thinking that those assist numbers arent even all that impressive to make that statement.

Anyways.

I wanted to comment about the comparison between this year's Lakers and last years Lakers (also the whole Phil Jackson effect).

Under Rudy T they were playing about the same as they are this year(probably better) and they really slacked off when he quit and injuries came about. That replacement coach also came in saying he's keeping the bench warm for Phil and with that kinda attitude I knew it was hopeless. If these things didnt occur the Lakers would have been a playoff team last year. Also, Kobe wasnt playing as sensational as he is now due to the fact they also had Caron and Chcky who would actually shoot the ball every now and then. This year I feel Kobe came in determined after the embarassment of last season and really set out from the get-go to carry this team. I dont believe it would have mattered which coach was out there this year. Phil Jackson isnt currently doing anything overly special. Between him and Rudy T they did about the same quality of work. Only difference is Kobe's attitude and maturity after the rough year(also not as much injuries).When the playoffs start I believe that is when Phil's class will come to show. How I see it he's just been cruising along this year.


Anyways, hopefully that remotely makes some sense. I'm too lazy to read back through it.

[DB]

Owh i think some of you guys misunderstood me there.

People are blaming Kobe for "not making his teammates better" because he only averages 4.5 assists per game...
but what some people don't realize is that kobe has the same job basically like MJ once had in the triangle offence.
So i'm just trying to point the fact that MJ's assists average has reduced abit since the triangle offence because
MJ was asked to be the scorer and pippen the facilitator of the team. Like Kobe and Odom right now.



Kobe just did what the coach asked him to do this year...and did it GOOD.

[Fewrookies-From2kW/Love]

1ST 2ND 3RD
Steve Nash
14 17 4
Dirk Nowitzki
13 6 9
LeBron James
8 8 11
Chauncey Billups
6 4 9
Kobe Bryant
3 7 8
Elton Brand
0 1 2
Dwyane Wade
0 1 0
Tim Duncan
0 0 1

early MVP voting returns

[1CenT]

Ron Artest should be the real winner














well lets get serious, Nash has better supporting casts than kobe, and so does Lebron, well that is why Suns and Cavs have more wins than Kobe and the Lakers..

I don't think Nash will win it again, I don't think Lebron will this year, the voters might go with Kobe/Dirk (more veteran players)
Nash on the other hand, to repeat as MVP, i dunno, it is more unlikely.. Just basing it on this, Nash might not win, other than that, i think Nash/Kobe will be the top winners, but who is #1? i dunno

[GloveGuy]

The sad part is, if Kobe doesn't win it this year, I'm convinced he could go MVP-less for his whole career. The fact is, this Laker team doesn't have the talent to play any better, regardless of what system they were to play in. So along with dominating day-in-day-out, Kobe has completely maxed out his current team.

Oh, and Steve Nash could never do to the Lakers what Kobe did. Take away Kobe, put George at the SG, and Nash at PG, have them play up-tempo basketball, and they'd be worse. The pieces aren't there.

With the current talent of that Lakers team, the best system to play in involves force-feeding Bryant and watching him create.

[Axel]

Apart from that, Kobe's shooting percentages are higher then they have been for the last 2 seasons. I don't really know where you're coming from with that.

Look at all the previous seasons, not just the last two.


As far as efficiency rating goes.... i have no idea how the hell that stat is calculated. I just use the other stats to rank overall efficiency

Kobe shares the ball the Lakers lose. It's that simple.

That so wrong.... in games where Kobe scores around 30 and gets assists rather than scoring above 40, the Lakers are much better..... I dont have an exact stat on that, but in general when I watch their games, when Kobe goes for 40 or more its usually a 50/50 chance they'll win.

[quote="Jae"]No one's ignoring it, but I'll take 35ppg at 45% plus a play-off spot. Jordan shot 46% in 1998 when he won the MVP award, 23% from 3 and only shot 4 shots per game less than Kobe while averaging 7ppg less. Want to take it off him and give it to Gary Payton or Tim Hardaway? /quote]

You're forgetting that the Bulls won 62 games that year. That said though, I probably would have gave it to Gary Payton

[powerhoward85]

Oh, and Steve Nash could never do to the Lakers what Kobe did. Take away Kobe, put George at the SG, and Nash at PG, have them play up-tempo basketball, and they'd be worse. The pieces aren't there.

Oh, and Kobe could never do to the suns what nash did too. Take away nash, put barbosa at the PG, and kobe at SG, have them force feeding the ball to kobe and watch him create, and they'd be worse. The pieces aren't there.

Does that sound familiar??

Anyway, to add on, if you say just force feeding the ball to kobe and watch him create, do you think you need to create a system just to do that.