Best Center of the 90's.

Personally, I think Ewing and Hakeem is a wash. Either guy can make a case for best center of the 90s, and second best center of all time. To say that Ewing isn't at least number 2 of the 90s is a joke.

I guess you were sleeping in the 90's. Besides of the fact I don't like being branded an "idiot" for defending a valid, personal point, there's NO way you can say Ewing=Olajuwon. Get back to those 93/94 Final tapes and watch the games. Then watch the supporting casts. Dream carried those guys alone. Ewing was a choke artist, and was dismantled by Olajuwon - he never "shut him down"- but then again, Dream dismantled all the centers thrown at him during those years...
Ewing, Admiral, Shaq, all were sent to school.

In my opinion, and I can back it up, Ewing was the 4th best Center of the 90's, having Shaq, David Robinson and Hakeem in front of him.
If you're enemy empaty towards the Knicks and Ewing comes from the fact your Pacers were repeatedly put to sleep by those NYK, I can understand. But the fact that Ewing was able to have his way aginst the likes of Smits, LaSalle Thompson, Dale Davis and whoever your pacers threw at him doesn't make him the best of the 90's.

He had nobody on his team over the years

Well, he had Charles Oakley, the Mase, Starks (who was a good player before his game 7 meltdown), Derek Harper, Mark Jackson, Charles Smith, Greg Anthony, Hubert Davis, Larry Johnson, Camby, Latrell Sprewell, X-Man... Nothing stratospheric, but solid nonetheless.

Hakeem had in his first title: Thorpe, Maxwell, Horry, Kenny Smith and a rookie called Sam Cassel to come out the bench. The 7th guy in that rotation was a venezuelan dude called Carl Herrera

But he was the best knick in their history

What about Walt Frazier, Dave deBussechere, and Willis Reed?
Boy, Boy... Ewing really is overrated.

Willis Reed is the only one who is close to Ewing. Compare the numbers and longevity, Ewing outranks every Knick there has been. If it was based on pure talent, I'd go with Bernard King though. He was explosive.

Well Those three have the hardware that escaped Ewing. And they won it twice against a powerfull Lakers team featuring West, Chamberlain, Baylor and Goodrich.
Longevity is a great thing, but numbers can be misleading. Besides, a concept such as "peak value" for a player with a short longevity ( such as Walton - which was way better than Ewing IMO ) overlooks that durabilty issue, and only looks at how dominant or sucessfull a player was during that short, bright period.
The 70's NYK teams had a balanced attack and a loaded team. They didn't focus on one guy (Ewing). Of course, when you play with Oakley and Charles Smith instead of Clyde, Pearl, Bill Bradley, DeBussechere, you have to score in the 20's...

You cant dismiss longevity though. Ewing put up numbers over a span of 10 years that willis reed could never emulate. Same with walt frazier. Sure they won a ring, but a ring isnt the be all and end all for discussions. Especially when Michael Jordan almost always seemingly was in his way (hakeem and reggie also played a part).

and bill waltons peak was better than ewings, but his longevity wasnt. i'd take 10 seasons at high level rather than one season of brilliance. thats why i have ewing as the greatest knick ever.

Wow, someone really overrated Rick Smits here.

I see what you mean. But for sake of acuracy, the 70's knicks won two championships, not one. And they did it arguably against the best lakers Team ever, so it's not like the fact of MJ standing in Ewing's way can be used as an excuse for his failure to get that title. And again, the numbers thing is due the fact that the 70's NYK team was deep as hell, so there wasn't a player standing out stats wise.

but a ring isnt the be all and end all for discussions

In the end it all comes to what you won. I'd rather have 3 years of Pat Ewing and one title than 20 of underachievement.

Clyde Frazier:

NBA All-Rookie Team (1968)

All NBA First Team (1970, 1972, 1974, 1975)

All-NBA Second Team (1971, 1973)

NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969, 1970, 1971-75)

Seven-time NBA All-Star (1970-76)

NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)

NBA championships with the New York Knicks (1970, 1973)

Established team records for most games (759), minutes played (28,995), field goals attempted (11,669),
field goals made (5,736), free throws attempted (4,017), free throws made (3,145), assists (4,791) and points (14,617)

In 825 NBA games, averaged 18.9 ppg

In 93 playoff games, averaged 20.7 ppg

Scored 36 points with 19 assists and seven rebounds in the 1973 championship victory over Los Angeles, 102-93 on March 10

Scored 43 points against San Diego (Oct. 30, 1969), a Madison Square Garden record for 15 years

Still remains New York Knicks all-time assist leader (4,791)

Dished out 19 assists vs. Los Angeles (May 8, 1970)

Helped lead New York to 19 straight wins (Oct. 24, 1973 to Nov. 28, 1973)

Knicks retired his number 10 jersey (Dec. 15, 1979)

NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996)

His stats in 72/73 : 20.5 pts, 6.9 asts 6.7rbds, 2 stls...

Great defender, CLUTCH PLAYER, marketable as hell (would you rather have his jersey or Pat's?- I know: stupid argument...)

2 times champion...

I don't know but it looks impressive to me.

Smits is a good center in the 90's but he is not the best center in the 90's. I would say Hakeem, Robinson and Shaq are the best center in the 90's.

I wouldnt, becuase you need to still surround the greatest of players with the right team to win. 10 years of a 20 point, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks guy is what you need to win. He was remember, one consistant guard away from a ring in 94 (and 93 too when you think about it).

The Bulls being in his way is legitmate though. They stood in the way of also the jazz. does this mean that ben wallace is better than karl malone? he has won a ring, after all.

also, consider penny and grant hill. they had a very small (and early) peak in their careers. does grant hill belong in kg's class? no, becuase he didnt do it long enough. If you want, ill run off some of ewings accomplishments/stats later

I wouldnt, becuase you need to still surround the greatest of players with the right team to win. 10 years of a 20 point, 11 rebounds, 3 blocks guy is what you need to win. He was remember, one consistant guard away from a ring in 94 (and 93 too when you think about it).

The Bulls being in his way is legitmate though. They stood in the way of also the jazz. does this mean that ben wallace is better than karl malone? he has won a ring, after all.

also, consider penny and grant hill. they had a very small (and early) peak in their careers. does grant hill belong in kg's class? no, becuase he didnt do it long enough. If you want, ill run off some of ewings accomplishments/stats later

Bottom line is that Ewing always fell short when he was on a big stage. He would shoot fadeaway jumpers with the game online and miss them. He chocked, and so did Karl Malone. That's the sign of a player who, at best should be a 2nd banana on a team, with someone else to step it up in times of need. Penny and Hill didn't win titles. Walton did, and he carried his team. When you talk about peak value, as players, they can matchup against anybody in the league. Brightest stars burn fast...

As for Malone and Wallace, they are completely different players. Malone would win games with dominating offense while Wallace will win games with dominating defense.

But for the sake of the argument:
How many games more did the NYK won after selecting Ewing with the 1st pick?
How many games more won the Spurs or the Magic after going with Admiral and Shaq? Now if you think of that you might come to the conclusion that the Knicks won games Despite Ewing. (I know I'm exaggerating here )

Consistency is a nice thing, but titles do count.

There is no way either of these guys are beter than wilt or kareem or even bill russel

top centre of the 90's dipshit, read the fucking title.

hakeem > all others

Yeah but somebody brought up the best center of all time in another post. I dont know why but he was just following up on the discussion.

I see what you mean. But for sake of acuracy, the 70's knicks won two championships, not one. And they did it arguably against the best lakers Team ever, so it's not like the fact of MJ standing in Ewing's way can be used as an excuse for his failure to get that title. And again, the numbers thing is due the fact that the 70's NYK team was deep as hell, so there wasn't a player standing out stats wise.

but a ring isnt the be all and end all for discussions

In the end it all comes to what you won. I'd rather have 3 years of Pat Ewing and one title than 20 of underachievement.

Clyde Frazier:

NBA All-Rookie Team (1968)

All NBA First Team (1970, 1972, 1974, 1975)

All-NBA Second Team (1971, 1973)

NBA All-Defensive First Team (1969, 1970, 1971-75)

Seven-time NBA All-Star (1970-76)

NBA All-Star Game MVP (1975)

NBA championships with the New York Knicks (1970, 1973)

Established team records for most games (759), minutes played (28,995), field goals attempted (11,669),
field goals made (5,736), free throws attempted (4,017), free throws made (3,145), assists (4,791) and points (14,617)

In 825 NBA games, averaged 18.9 ppg

In 93 playoff games, averaged 20.7 ppg

Scored 36 points with 19 assists and seven rebounds in the 1973 championship victory over Los Angeles, 102-93 on March 10

Scored 43 points against San Diego (Oct. 30, 1969), a Madison Square Garden record for 15 years

Still remains New York Knicks all-time assist leader (4,791)

Dished out 19 assists vs. Los Angeles (May 8, 1970)

Helped lead New York to 19 straight wins (Oct. 24, 1973 to Nov. 28, 1973)

Knicks retired his number 10 jersey (Dec. 15, 1979)

NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996)

His stats in 72/73 : 20.5 pts, 6.9 asts 6.7rbds, 2 stls...

Great defender, CLUTCH PLAYER, marketable as hell (would you rather have his jersey or Pat's?- I know: stupid argument...)

2 times champion...

I don't know but it looks impressive to me.

Wrong decades my man.

Wrong decades my man.

We are discussing which was the best Knicks player, all time.
I guess the discussion about who was the best center of the 90's has been closed for a long time now: Hakeem, hands down.
We just moved on.

Besides, in case you don't know, Walt "Clyde" Frasier was not a center.

Topics in a single thread always change in the NLSC forums, get used to it Patrick Ewing #33.
And Matthew, stop double posting.

teh dreamz
diezel
king ewing kong
kidney man
mountain mutom

Hakeem for the first half of the 90's, and Shaq for the second half of the 90's.

kidney man

Who?

Alonzo Mourning would be my guess, given his kidney issues.

Ahh right, right, it most likely is, then!

Plus he has the bling to back it up.

Only because Jordan decided to try his hand at baseball.

Jordan's stated before that the Rockets were always their toughest opponent in the early nineties and that it would have been interesting had they actually met in the Finals. I seem to remember Houston having their way with the Bulls during regular season games.

Ok ok ok 2nd best centre of all time that is one of the more disturbing things i have ever heard in my life. There is no way either of these guys are beter than wilt or kareem or even bill russel these guys made the centre position the most important. Wilt was just unbelieveable and easily makes a case for being the greatest of all time, kareem is the games greatest scorer and no one else could win like bill. Saying that ewing or hakeem is beter than 2 of these guys is an injustice. Now im not saying that they werent any good but there is no way that one of them could be 2nd best centre of all time

Yes, they put their mark on the center position, but just because they did it first, doesn't make them better. Wilt, I'll give him number one. Bill, while the greatest winner of all time, was on a team with HOFs coming off the bench. Kareem is not the greatest scorer. By your logic, Karl Malone's the second greatest.

Hakeem Olajuwon is the second greatest center of all time, dominating the greatest era of big men with ease.

i made changes to my list... the only question i have is who was better, ewing or david robinson? i dont remember the spurs really being a good team before duncan came.

made changes to my list... the only question i have is who was better, ewing or david robinson? i dont remember the spurs really being a good team before duncan came

1993 -1994
55 wins 27 losses
Rodman played There
Were humbled by Utah in the 1st round

1994-1995
60 wins 20 losses
Rodman was pulling down 17.3 caroms a game
Lost in the semi finals against a very upset Olajuwon, after D-Rob won the MVP


1995-96 59 23 .720
1994-95 62 20 .756
1993-94 55 27 .671
1992-93 49 33 .598
1991-92 47 35 .573
1990-91 55 27 .671
1989-90 56 26 .683 After David Robinson
1988-89 21 61 .256 before David Robinson

Looks like he had some sort of impact, uhn?

YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
89-90 SAS 82 81 36.6 .531 .000 .732 3.70 8.30 12.00 2.0 1.68 3.89 3.13 3.20 24.3
90-91 SAS 82 81 37.7 .552 .143 .762 4.10 8.90 13.00 2.5 1.55 3.90 3.29 3.20 25.6
91-92 SAS 68 68 37.7 .551 .125 .701 3.80 8.40 12.20 2.7 2.32 4.49 2.68 3.20 23.2
92-93 SAS 82 82 39.2 .501 .176 .732 2.80 8.90 11.70 3.7 1.55 3.22 2.94 2.90 23.4
93-94 SAS 80 80 40.5 .507 .345 .749 3.00 7.70 10.70 4.8 1.74 3.31 3.16 2.90 29.8
94-95 SAS 81 81 38.0 .530 .300 .774 2.90 7.90 10.80 2.9 1.65 3.23 2.88 2.80 27.6
95-96 SAS 82 82 36.8 .516 .333 .761 3.90 8.30 12.20 3.0 1.35 3.30 2.32 3.20 25.0

1984/85: Bernard King continued to be the Knicks biggest star as he set a franchise record for 60 points in a Christmas Day game against the New Jersey Nets, and led the league in scoring. However, despite King's 32.9 ppg the Knicks struggled all season. Those struggles would worsen n March 23rd when Bernard King suffered a devastating knee injury. The Knicks would go on to lose their final 12 games without King finishing in last place with a 24-58 record. However, the team's end of the year struggles would have a silver lining as they won the first every draft lottery enabling them to draft Georgetown star Patrick Ewing.

1985/86: Patrick Ewing arrived with much hoopla leading Rookies in scoring and rebounding to win the Rookie of the Year. However Ewing would miss 32 games, while Bernard King was lost for the entire season as the Knicks finished in last place again with a 23-59 record. They were actually worse...

1986/87: The Knicks continued to struggle as Bernard King finally made his return near the end of a season in which the Knicks finished in last place for the 3rd straight year with a record of 24-58. However, it was clear King was not the same player he was before he blew out his knee. Following the seasons He would be released by the Knicks who drafted St. John's star Mark Jackson.

1987/88: With a young team led by Patrick Ewing and Rookie of the Year Mark Jackson the Knicks felt they needed a young energetic coach so they hired Rick Pitino who had led Providence to the Final Four. The move would work as the Knicks made a 14-game improvement finishing in 3rd place with a 38-44 record, which would get them into the playoffs as the 8th seed. However, in the playoffs the young Knicks would fall to the Boston Celtics in 4 games.

1988/89: Prior to the season in a move to give Patrick Ewing some rebounding help the Knicks acquire Charles Oakley in a trade with the Chicago Bulls for Bill Cartwright. Led by a 26-game home winning streak the Knicks win their first Division title in 18 years by posting a solid record of 52-30. In the playoffs the Knicks would make quick work of the Philadelphia 76ers sweeping them in 3 straight. However, in the 2nd round the Knicks would be frustrated by Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls falling in 6 games.

Not quite the same impact from Mr. Ewing...

1989-90 56 26 .683 After David Robinson
1988-89 21 61 .256 before David Robinson

Dont be mislead; sean elliot also arrived that season (remember robinson served 2 years in the navy after being drafted).

However, I have no problem with the admiral being ahead of ewing. 2 championsips, a mvp, a willingness to become a secondary player with duncan, but still had the ability to carry a team. Plus a class act. I tip my hate to david robinson, he is an example of everything that is good about not only basketball, but life.

I wish he would run for presidency in america.

I wish he would run for presidency in america.

No comments needed on that

Hakeem. It was a good decade for centres but Hakeem gets the nod for several reasons. He had the numbers. He had the talent and physical gifts - let's not forget how he made some of the finest athletic big men look clumsy with his footwork. He had the individual accolades and he had the two championships. The Dream was the top man in the middle during the 90s, there's no doubt in my mind about that.

Ewing is greatly underrated, especially by Charley Rosen, but I can't place him at number two. I think that honour has to go to David Robinson. Matthew's already mentioned some of the reasons, but it's also worth mentioning how talented The Admiral was, how fine an athlete he was for a man his size and how impressive his numbers were during that decade. But I can't put him ahead of Hakeem.

I will put Ewing at number three though, however it is tempting to put Shaq ahead of him. Shaq however has had his best years - and the most success - in the current decade. He was a powerful force in the 90s but not quite as dominant as he has been in the last five years. Therefore, Ewing's my number three for the 90s.

David Robinson was the most athletic big man ive ever seen. Amare is close, but David Robinson was quicker than 95% of the guards in the league.

However, I cant rank shaq down becuase of the dominance he would later enjoy. But it does make for an interesting argument, especially when you consider Ewing played Hakeem considerably better in the finals. But Shaq got a (albeit tainted) victory of mj in the playoffs in 95, and was a part of a 60 win club twice (in 96 and 98), ewing only achieved it once in 93.

Both Ewing and Shaq were complete opposities. Ewing was a jumpshooting centre, shaq operated almost exclusively inside. Shaq had the ability to flat out dominate series, ewing (much like tim duncan) played off his teamates and didnt really control the tempo.

Its almost a dead heat in my opinion.