april 16th wizards vs.sixers

Not a smart ass comment, it was just my thought of what things should be like once the Lakers win that second round. However, like Dan said, David is retiring and he barely got any recognition, I don't care if someone else gets recognitions in their final year, but great players for sure should get theirs, including Malone & Iverson.

Iverson is retiring?
As for your comment, "but great players for sure should get theirs" why are you so uptight about the greatest player ever to play getting recognition?

Exactly, especially when it's not so important to get an MVP finals which would just say you had a terrific series. That's like getting the all-star MVP. One terrific game,

You cannot compare all star game mvp's to finals mvp's. An allstar game is exhibiton for the fans. The finals mvp is obviously for the biggest prize the nba has to offer its players and is given to the player who performs the best on the absolute highest level. Maybe that's why Kobe is yet to win one?

Robinson is one of the greatest in the NBA history and if you guys feel angry for not showing respect to MJ (like this big answer felt), you should feel the same way for not showing respect to Robinson, it's simple like that.

Robinson was fantastic, the most athletic center ever to play in the nba. But I think MJ got a good send off by the leagues. I'm more pissed off about that twat collins giving him 28 minutes in his final game.

But just out of curiousity, why would a jordan fan or admirer HAVE to feel the same for robinson?

"but great players for sure should get theirs" why are you so uptight about the greatest player ever to play getting recognition?

You see, once again you are wrong. I didn't care Magic Johnson getting any recognition.

Maybe that's why Kobe is yet to win one?

Maybe because Kobe doesn't shoot 50% out of the entire team shots and Jordan needed to shoot that or more in order to get those awards.

I'm more pissed off about that twat collins giving him 28 minutes in his final game.

why would a jordan fan or admirer HAVE to feel the same for robinson?

Did I say they have to? No, I ask you why would you feel bad if the Lakers retire number 50 in Robinson's last game?, cause that's what you showed in your reply, do you have anything against Robinson?

This is almost pointless...

You see, once again you are wrong. I didn't care Magic Johnson getting any recognition.

lol Magic Johnson? Ha! Well at least you know a laker before Eddie Jones

Maybe because Kobe doesn't shoot 50% out of the entire team shots and Jordan needed to shoot that or more in order to get those awards.

Whether he shot 50%, 95% or 5% his team won every finals appearance. If the Bulls had lost becuase of MJ's high amount of shots, then, and only then can you criticize him.

Did I say they have to? No, I ask you why would you feel bad if the Lakers retire number 50 in Robinson's last game?, cause that's what you showed in your reply, do you have anything against Robinson?

No, but you said should. I like David Robinson. I didn't like you taking a cheap shot at Miami's sign of respect towards jordan.
Oh but wait, you're a Knick/Laker fan, so I guess you have some reason to hold resent towards Jordan, after all, he really ended Magic's career, plus won one more ring, took away any legitimacy for Johnson to be called "the greatest ever" and also became a (much) bigger star than Magic ever was. It's ok, I understand

and only then can you criticize him.

No, everyone does, even yourself, there you pointed out his shooting, .

No, but you said should.

That's English, isn't it? Should & have to are different.

I didn't like you taking a cheap shot at Miami's sign of respect towards jordan.

You don't have to like what I post, I don't post things you like, . In fact you won't like anything I ever post, you have your own opinions.

Oh but wait, you're a Knick/Laker fan

Wrong again, I'm a Lakers fan living in NYC.

I guess you have some reason to hold resent towards Jordan

Not at all, Wrong once again. I want MJ to continue playing, that way the Wiz will make the playoffs.

he really ended Magic's career

AIDS?

plus won one more ring

So did Jabbar, I don't care that.

took away any legitimacy for Johnson to be called "the greatest ever"

Bah, it always happens, the Greatest ever now is Kobe and very soon will be Lebron, that's something you should get used to.

also became a (much) bigger star than Magic ever was.

Oh sorry, I thought he stayed in 6-6.

Well at least you know a laker before Eddie Jones

When I became a Lakers fan, you didn't know what basketball was.

When I became a Lakers fan, you didn't know what basketball was.

Dude if you're that old what the #$^# are you doing on a message board

When I became a Lakers fan, you didn't know what basketball was.

Dude if you're that old what the #$^# are you doing on a message board

lol

When I became a Lakers fan, you didn't know what basketball was.

Dude if you're that old what the #$^# are you doing on a message board

i wasn't aware that there is an age limit here.

Dude if you're that old what the #$^# are you doing on a message board

, having some fun & checking other people's opinions. The case is not how old I am but how long he knows basketball for him to believe I have no knowledge of former Lakers Players.

No, everyone does, even yourself, there you pointed out his shooting,

Hmm lets see. I said you can only criticize him if the Bulls had lost. Did you see anyone criticize Robert Horry after his shonky defensive performance against the Pacers in the finals a few years back? No.. becuase the Lakers won. If they had lost, different story.

That's English, isn't it? Should & have to are different.

Yes they are different, slightly. "Should" is implied it's expected to be done.

You don't have to like what I post, I don't post things you like, . In fact you won't like anything I ever post, you have your own opinions.

Hm, ok. I wont like anything you will ever post?? You know this becuase? Oh that's right, you dont

Wrong again, I'm a Lakers fan living in NYC.

Really? So how does that work? You jumped on the bandwagon? Or you were a closet Laker fan in 94 when they stunk and the Knicks made the finals? And I could be wrong, but I've seen some of your posts and I think you reffered to the knicks as "we". I think that was you..

Not at all, Wrong once again. I want MJ to continue playing, that way the Wiz will make the playoffs.

"Bah" That's why you came out with that smart arse comment "if the Bucks make the playoffs, they must give up their spot for Jordan".

AIDS?

No didn't you know? Dennis Rodman gave Magic AIDS, so by the time Rodman joined the bulls there would be no competetion. But seriously, who was the mvp of the finals just before Magic retired? MJ? Yes

So did Jabbar, I don't care that.

I dont care that? Lol, that be good english

Bah, it always happens, the Greatest ever now is Kobe and very soon will be Lebron, that's something you should get used to.

Lol!!! Kobe is the greatest ever? Heheh riiiight. He isn't even the best on his team, let alone of his era, let alone of his position, let alone of all time. That was a good laugh though

Oh sorry, I thought he stayed in 6-6.

I said a bigger star, not a taller human. Heheh

When I became a Lakers fan, you didn't know what basketball was.

Lol ok Buddy, whatever you say

, having some fun & checking other people's opinions. The case is not how old I am but how long he knows basketball for him to believe I have no knowledge of former Lakers Players

Listen I was giving you credit for knowing former Laker Ballers. I didn't say I couldn't believe it.

Lol!!! Kobe is the greatest ever? Heheh riiiight. He isn't even the best on his team, let alone of his era, let alone of his position, let alone of all time. That was a good laugh though

what and i spose you think t-mac is better?? lol
the sad thing is kobe averaged 30ppg with another guy on his team averaging 27.
just imagine if shaq wasnt there
you think shaq is better than kobe.......i dont think so.

and why cant we say kobe could(now im saying could, coz hes too young to say he is now) the greatest ever???
Phil Jackson has made comparisons many of times and he has coached MJ and Kobe.
MJ is great, but he never scored 40+ points 9 games in a row while shooting 49% in the process. he never averaged 40ppg in a month.
remember that, kobes only 24.
then theres t-mac..........great player.............superb offence........average defence. thats what brings him down and takes the comparisons from jordan.

so state your opinion, coz i know theres gonna be someone who doesnt like what a write lol

you think shaq is better than kobe.......i dont think so.

If I may throw my own two cents into the discussion...it's obvious Shaq isn't a better player than Kobe. That goes without saying - Kobe is a guard, with more versatile and all around skills. But Shaq is still the more valuable player, because his presence has so much impact on the game.

MJ is great, but he never scored 40+ points 9 games in a row while shooting 49% in the process. he never averaged 40ppg in a month.

Well, if you want to get in to that...

Kobe has never/not yet...

Scored 69 points and grabbed 18 rebounds (as well as tallying 6 assists, 4 steals and 1 block) in the same game.

Recorded 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in a season - I'm not sure if anyone else has done it since, but Jordan is listed as the first (and at the time) only player to do so.

Recorded double figures in steals in a single game

Averaged over 30 points per game for his entire career

Led the league in scoring 10 times (including 7 straight)

Scored 63 points in a playoff game/55 points in an NBA Finals game

Led the league in scoring (35.0ppg) while also being recognised as the Defensive Player of the Year (due to leading the league in steals at 3.16 per game, while also averaging 1.6 blocks per game).

Been recognised as the most valuable component in a championship series six times - all victories.

Tallied 30000+ points, 5000+ assists and 5000+ rebounds

Surpassed various other milestones set by other players. He does not rank 3rd in scoring with the best per game average, nor second in steals with a higher per game average than the leader.

There's other achievements and marks, some trivial and less significant than others, but I won't mention them, because I'm sure everyone's had enough of talking about Michael Jordan without me rattling off more facts and figures.

What's my point? Basically that if you want to talk about things that Kobe has done that MJ has not in determining whether he has surpassed Jordan, there's plenty of things that Kobe has not achieved that MJ has. The feat that you mentioned is impressive, and proof of Kobe's abilities. But that statistic, alone or combined with Kobe's other achievements, is still not equal to the marks set by not only Jordan, but by other players, too.

Kobe is young (as you already pointed out, 24). He may well break these records and surpass these milestones. He may well set new records that may never be surpassed, ever. But until he does, it's still might, maybe, what if. What if he's suspended indefinitely for drug violations? What if he suffers a career-ending injury and cannot surpass these statistical achievements?

Just to throw one more in there. Kobe has never won a championship without a dominant/All-Star/intimidating centre on his team. Most great players that you could name (who are not centres) all had such a centre on their team when they won a title - Oscar Robertson, Julius Erving, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Isiah Thomas - while Jordan did not.

Kobe is a great player, and if you want to say he's the greatest of all-time, you're free to do so. But there are valid arguments against that assertion, not only in favour of Michael Jordan but for other players, too. (I chose MJ because his name was mentioned and he's my favourite player)

Well........................I cant argue that lol.

both are great but MJ is still the greatest, i said kobe could become the greatest.
but players like kobe and t-mac will make names for themselves and both have solid arguments for the greatest. But i feel if there is going to be anyone to take jordans reign as greatest ever it will be kobe.

Definitely, he not only has talent but time on his side. He could very well surpass those records and become the new benchmark of excellence in the NBA, but he's got a way to go yet.

To me, it seems that Kobe's career will be the reverse of Michael Jordan's - the team accomplishments will come first, followed by great individual accomplishments.

Hm, ok. I wont like anything you will ever post?? You know this becuase? Oh that's right, you dont

Of course I know, cause I'm not a MJ fan, it's obvious, you just like comments on his favor.

Really? So how does that work? You jumped on the bandwagon?

No, that's something you do usually.

Or you were a closet Laker fan in 94 when they stunk and the Knicks made the finals?

No, you think I'm the way you are, you are describing your situation with the Bulls, I was a real Laker fan in 93-94 when they really stunk that's how you prove you are a fan. Right, Lakers didn't make the Finals, I had the right to choose who was the favorite, the same thing happened the next year, the same thing happened during the Bulls years.

but I've seen some of your posts and I think you reffered to the knicks as "we"

Exactly, if you are talking about Australians, are you going to exclude yourself?, . I'm a New Yorker.

That's why you came out with that smart arse comment "if the Bucks make the playoffs, they must give up their spot for Jordan".

You don't get it, do you?

But seriously, who was the mvp of the finals just before Magic retired? MJ?

Ha!!!!, MVP of the Finals, . Magic already had rings in every finger of his right hand when MJ was crying to get one. I'll ask you this, did MJ win the MVP of the Finals in his rookie year?, Magic became the only Rookie to win the MVP of the Finals, now I think that was important, a rookie taking his team to the Finals and winning the MVP Finals, you were right, that award is important but it's much more important when a rookie wins it. Maybe LeBron will do it next year, who knows, but MJ didn't.

I dont care that? Lol, that be good english

That's right, good english.

He isn't even the best on his team

Would you say someone who scores less than him is better when you wouldn't say the same thing for MJ?

Lol ok Buddy, whatever you say

Scored 69 points and grabbed 18 rebounds (as well as tallying 6 assists, 4 steals and 1 block) in the same game.

Wilt did it few more times, I wouldn't say Robinson grab 18 rebs, but he did score more than that in regular time as well.

Recorded 200+ steals and 100+ blocks in a season

I'm going to make it easy for you Andrew, look at Pippen numbers.

Recorded double figures in steals in a single game

Hmmmm, a lot of players have done that, Alvin Robertson did it 4 times and is the only Guard to get a quadrupledouble, last one I remember getting 10+ steals in a game might be Kendall Gill.

there's plenty of things that Kobe has not achieved that MJ has.

I agree, but notice that great players take their teams to the Playoffs. Maybe MJ was great one day, not anymore, that's a much better reason why he's retiring.

Wilt did it few more times, I wouldn't say Robinson grab 18 rebs, but he did score more than that in regular time as well.

The question was whether Kobe had surpassed marks set by MJ. Also, MJ grabbed 18 rebounds playing shooting guard, 6'6" in a league where 7 footers are commonplace. It's not surprising that Wilt would grab more rebounds (he did average 22.5 for his career after all). But he wasn't a guard.

I'm going to make it easy for you Andrew, look at Pippen numbers.

Yes, Pippen did actually register 211 steals and 101 blocks in 1989/90, thanks for the confirmation. But not only was Michael Jordan the first to amass those numbers in the same season, he did it twice (86/87: 236 steals, 125 blocks; 87/88: 131 blocks).

Hmmmm, a lot of players have done that, Alvin Robertson did it 4 times and is the only Guard to get a quadrupledouble, last one I remember getting 10+ steals in a game might be Kendall Gill.

That's true. But the topic was things that Kobe has done that MJ has not, so I was just rattling off a few things that MJ has done that Kobe has not.

I agree, but notice that great players take their teams to the Playoffs. Maybe MJ was great one day, not anymore, that's a much better reason why he's retiring.

So MJ wasn't a great player because he didn't take his team to the playoffs? The Bulls made the playoffs every season that MJ played for them, including his rookie year (they had missed the playoffs the previous year).

On second reading, I figure you're talking about the current season, in which the Wizards missed the playoffs, and the Lakers made it. Is Kobe the better player right now? Of course, MJ is 40 years old, and in the latter, latter stage of his career! (Though no other 40 year old has scored more than 40 points, and last season, he became the oldest player to score 50) And we could go into the whole Lakers have a better team the Wizards, Shaq is on the Lakers, without Shaq the Lakers got off to a subpar start, etc, but that's not the point.

I was arguing the point about Kobe surpassing Jordan "all-time", since there's other things he must prove and accomplish before he takes his place among the greats. No matter who you believe to be the best of all-time - MJ, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Kareem, whoever - there's many things that Kobe must do before he stands above those players.

Unless you consider Yinka Dare to be the greatest of all-time.

there's many things that Kobe must do before he stands above those players.

I understand that.

I figure you're talking about the current season, in which the Wizards missed the playoffs, and the Lakers made it. Is Kobe the better player right now?

No, I wouldn't say that Kobe is better than MJ just because the Lakers made the Playoffs and the Wiz didn't, what I meant is exactly what I said great players take their team to the playoffs, MJ missed his last and most important tries. At least if last year he had done it, but he didn't. Why most important? cause you need to retire as a champion or at least as a winner.

Right, MJ was 40 doing all that scoring but notice no other 40 y/o has ever taken as many shots as MJ did this year to accomplish whatever he did, so a lot of things go to his scoring. He was, let's say, still the first option of the team, we should forget his age cause he's really good to be 40, that's why I want to see him playing, cause he brings competition to the court, right he's old but he scores, Geeez, if everyone scoring below 18 would retire the league would have no players.

No, I wouldn't say that Kobe is better than MJ just because the Lakers made the Playoffs and the Wiz didn't, what I meant is exactly what I said great players take their team to the playoffs, MJ missed his last and most important tries, at least if last year he had done it but he didn't. Why most important? cause you need to retire as a champion or at least as a winner.

So does that mean Bird, who retired in 1992 amid problems with his back, and having not won a title since 1986, wasn't great? Does it mean Magic Johnson, who last won a title in 1988, retired in 1991 due to contracting HIV, then made a brief comeback in 1996 that wasn't exactly "Magic", wasn't great? Does it mean that Isiah Thomas retiring in 1994 after an un-Isiah Thomas-like season mean he wasn't great?

Must a player win his final game or the championship in his final season to be great? If that's the case, then not only MJ but Wilt, Bird, Magic and Kareem were not great.

And the Wizards were an improved team with Jordan in the lineup in 2001/2002, but he was injured after the All-Star break, thus he sat out the final 20 or so games. They just missed out on the playoffs this year, and when they did, MJ was given reduced minutes (28 in his final appearance).

If MJ's final season has taken away his greatness, then it should be that way for Kareem (10.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg in final season), Wilt (13.2 ppg) and the rest. What you're suggesting is that because a 40 year old Michael Jordan, "running on fumes" (to borrow an expression from Bob Costas), cannot be considered great because of a lacklustre supporting cast, unconsistent sidekick (Stack), and a sub-.500 season. I'm sorry, but I just don't agree.

If it was Michael Jordan in his prime who was trying to turn the team around, his ability would be questioned. But at 40 years old and a vital part of his game (athleticism) lacking, it's not a surprise that he could not do all the things that he used to.

Unless you consider Yinka Dare to be the greatest of all-time.

You dissin on mah main man Yinka, the man Mr. Chibbs dubbed Stinka.

I thought Kobe only tied Michael Jordan with that streak of 40 point games?

no, jordan had 8

No, Jordan had 9, Kobe tied that. http://www.nba.com/features/kobe_40plus_030221.html
I could have saved Andrew a whole lot of typing

the sad thing is kobe averaged 30ppg with another guy on his team averaging 27.

...and while that other guy was out for the first 10 games of the season, Kobe averaged 30.1ppg.
[/quote]

...and while that other guy was out for the first 10 games of the season, Kobe averaged 30.1ppg.

yer and 9apg 9rpg
and he had something like 3 triple-doubles.

so just imagine is shaq wasnt there, the facts are there, kobes all-round numbers would explode!

So does that mean Bird, who retired in 1992 amid problems with his back, and having not won a title since 1986, wasn't great?

Andrew, I didn't say winning titles cause obviously there are no titles for everyone, I said taking his team to the Playoffs. Magic took his team to the Finals the year he retired, when he came back, his team made the playoffs as well. Bird took his team to the playoffs every single year specially when he retired. MJ came back with the purpose of making the playoffs with the Wiz, something he didn't get, did he retire as a winner after being unable to accomplish that? NO.

Regarding Thomas, he was injured, MJ was not injured.

Must a player win his final game or the championship in his final season to be great?

If you are a winner, you better show it taking your team to the Playoffs.

If that's the case, then not only MJ but Wilt, Bird, Magic and Kareem were not great.

All those took their teams to the Playoffs or Finals in their last year so I don't think you meant a comparison there.

They just missed out on the playoffs this year, and when they did, MJ was given reduced minutes (28 in his final appearance)

They missed last year as well. Did you want MJ to play 48 mins when the team was already out? what would have been the purpose of making him play 48 mins? having a Vice President or whatever MJ is there in a wheelchair?

If MJ's final season has taken away his greatness

Andrew, I didn't say anything bad about his scoring average. I already said his average is too good to retire that way, I didn't say MJ has the worst scoring average for anyone retiring, You are supposed to retire when you can't do your Job or when you are too old, someone who scores 18 every game is not too old to play.

cannot be considered great because of a lacklustre supporting cast, unconsistent sidekick (Stack), and a sub-.500 season. I'm sorry, but I just don't agree.

Andrew, You have to agree with this statement: If you have on mind who the players are, the Wiz were a much better team than the Magic, they even were much better than the same Celtics who just can count with those 2 superstars. I'm not a Wiz fan but you should know that much better than myself.

But at 40 years old and a vital part of his game (athleticism) lacking, it's not a surprise that he could not do all the things that he used to.

Well, he showed you he can score still, but if you can't score, you still can pass the ball, I don't think there's any 40 y/o who can't do that. He didn't have to run like those young ones to take his team to the Playoffs, Stack could have done that, together with that HS disappointment.

Last edited by scubilete on Wed Apr 23, 2003 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Magic took his team to the Finals the year he retired, when he came back, his team made the playoffs as well.

In 1991, the Lakers had Magic, James Worthy, Vlade Divac, Byron Scott, A.C. Green...that's a much better starting five than the Wizards had last year or this year, not to mention a better bench.

And I'm pretty sure the 95/96 Lakers would have made the playoffs with or without Magic. He came back after the All-Star break, so he didn't exactly lead them all season long, nor did he save them from being eliminated from the playoffs.

MJ came back with the purpose of making the playoffs with the Wiz, something he didn't get, did he retire as a winner after being unable to accomplish that? NO.

That was one of the team goals, yes. But I thought MJ originally came back because he wanted to prove he could still play this game, because he still had the desire to play. Making the playoffs is a goal that is set by pretty much every team. If the supporting cast fails, can all the blame be put on MJ? Is he playing 1 on 5? NO.

And what about all the winning that took place before the last couple of seasons, seasons were Jordan was at times very un-Jordanlike? Does that suddenly not matter, because his last couple of years were not as successful?

If you are a winner, you better show it taking your team to the Playoffs.

Like I said, the Bulls made the playoffs every year Jordan played there, including his first season (after missing the playoffs the year before). Just because his last couple of years, with a subpar roster and battling age did not yield a playoff appearance, MJ is not a winner?

They missed last year as well.

They were above .500 with MJ in the lineup last season, but if you'll check, MJ did miss 22 games that season, including around 20 in the second half of the season, during which the Wizards faltered and fell out of the playoff picture.

Did you want MJ to play 48 mins when the team was already out? what would have been the purpose of making him play 48 mins? having a Vice President or whatever MJ is there in a wheelchair?

I don't think playing significant minutes over the last few games of the season would have put him in a wheelchair.

Andrew, I didn't say anything bad about his scoring average.

That wasn't what I was implying, I was talking about his whole season - his individual stats and the team's performance.

Andrew, You have to agree with this statement: If you have on mind who the players are, the Wiz were a much better team than the Magic, they even were much better than the same Celtics who just can count with those 2 superstars. I'm not a Wiz fan but you should know that much better than myself.

'

With all due respect, I don't have to agree with that statement, since my opinion is different to yours. I consider the Magic to have the stronger team - especially after the mid-season trade that they made. I also consider the Celtics the better team.

At any rate, what we're discussing now is MJ's rank amongst the other great players, whether he was great, how he was in his final season, etc. I was just making the simple point that even though Kobe has tied a mark set by Jordan (yes, Wilt's mark is higher, but we're just talking about Kobe and MJ), there's other marks that Jordan has set, other things that he has accomplished, that Kobe has not.

And not just Jordan, but other great players as well. All I was trying to say was, there's more than a few more things that Kobe must do before we can give him such a high accolade as greatest ever - without being able to argue against it, anyway.

No matter who we individually think is the greatest of all-time (since we'll never be able to agree), Kobe has some way to go before he'll pass any of the candidates whom we deem to hold that honour.

so just imagine is shaq wasnt there, the facts are there, kobes all-round numbers would explode!

That's true, but that first quote of yours that I referred to implied that Kobe's scoring would go up, and it did... by .1ppg.

His other numbers went up because he had so much of the ball when Shaq was out. His all-round numbers were great but the Lakers weren't, and Laker fans seem to think that Kobe would score 40ppg without Shaq, even after he showed that he couldn't. It was tougher for him to put up 30ppg without Shaq, remember how many shots he had to take early in the season to get his points? Didn't he take like 47 shots in one game?

His inexperience in leading a team showed in the win/loss column, but I'm not trying to fault him for that since it was pretty much his first go at leading them without another all-star. Did he really average 9rpg and 9apg during that stretch? I know he wasn't far off but with all due respect I won't take your word for it and can't be bothered checking.

Oh and Scubilette is right, Michael Jordan is no longer a winner. Tell me what it is that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird "won" in their last seasons