Indiana Pacers thread

[Riot]

I'm not hating on JO, he's a good player but he's not on the level of Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan.

[air gordon]

Interesting.. Jermaine is only one season removed from that mvp type season he had in 2004...

The thing that seperates them is O'neals ability (much like duncans) to give him teamates space and opportunities to score. If Artest, Jackson and tinsley are playing well, he defers to them and picks and chooses his spots alot better. Garnett does this to a point, but when his teamates struggle, Jermaine knows when and how to take over and carry a team offensively.

hmm ok.. you say 1 season ago, i say 2 since i factored in this upcoming season

but i can't agree on the space/opportunities thing. one of the biggest crticisms of JO is his poor ability of passing out of double teams. as riot mentions, KG is often doubled teamed and makes better decisions passing out of that. additionally, KG is the vocal point of the offense. from what i see, i normally receives the ball FT line extended, then he and the rest of the offense reacts to the defense

As for Ron Artest, he is valuable to the pacers. But not as valuable as Jermaine Oneal. Without Jermaine.. I doubt the pacers would make the playoffs. The team defense (even with artest) would be shot, as would their scoring (who would carry the burden? Artest and jax are great complimentary scorers, but cant take the role of being the goto guy).

this is interesting & debateable. i think JO's best asset on D is his shot blocking ability from the help side. Foster normally takes on the better post scorer from the opposition. Now artest can bully and shut down any perimeter player not named RIP. plus he could guard a few post players and his defense is not reliant (unlike bowen) on funneling players into the helpside

which defense would be better? JO and 2 average wing defenders or Artest and 2 Jeff fosters?

as far as offense goes... having a post to midrange scorer as your 1st option is more ideal though artest has had stretches where he can carry an offense and is not afraid or reluctant to go the basket.

honestly, i think it's a wash between who's more valuable. incidentally, both are 3rd best at their respective position. indiana is the favorite in the east i say

my $0.02. waiting for indy's non bias response

[Matthew]

That's great, but he has only played 30mpg or more for five seasons (since he got in Indiana). That's like saying Darko is great because he won a championship ring. Garnett has led his team, which wasn't very talented besides 2003-2004, to the playoffs 8 out of his 10 years.

I already covered that in my point. Please read before jumping to conclusions.

And last year, he was one game out of the post season again.

Close is not good enough..

Michael Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face, I suppose he isn't a good leader? Jermaine O'Neal got in a brawl with fans in Detroit, I suppose he isn't a good leader? Don't bring up something like that and say he is a bad teammate or leader. Rickert wasn't even going to make the team, and probably wouldn't have even gotten invited to training camp.

The potential impact that had cannot be ignored.
The team went from 2 games from the finals to missing the playoffs completely. When MJ slapped kerr what harm did it do? They still won. The difference is Mike still showed trust in kerr when he needed too. Tough love only works when the trust and respect is still there. Kerr and Jordan were teamates before the incident, and MJ still delivered when needed.

Garnett probably never extended himself too that rookie after that incident.

Now I'm not blaming the season on Garnetts punch, but it couldnt have helped. But seeing we're using MJ as an example, look at the 98 season. They got off to a rough start, but a true leader that jordan is, he turned that situation around before pippen returned and got themselves in position for another 60 win season and a championship.

Garnett has always been the type to lean back and not come to his teams rescue at critical times.

As for who to blame last year, I blame everyone. It's a team game besides a select few (Garnett, Hassell, Madsen, Carter) nobody played with the effort to win. It was all about the individuals and there was no team. Not to mention the team just wasn't very talented.

The team was just as talented as the season before. Sure they had injuries.. but they didnt play with any kind of urgancy. KG did after the all star break, but it was too late then.

It's not just the fact that he has been to the playoffs, it's the fact that he has single-handedly lead his team to the post season even when there were more talented teams there. Before Garnett got drafted, the Wolves were lucky to win 30 games. Then in his 2nd season a 19 year old kid LEADS the team to it's first ever post season birth. He never looked back until this year.

Googs was their best player in 97. Stephon had a brilliant rookie season. KG was good in his role, but its not like he "single handedly" took them there. But I'm interested as to how that relates to the comparison of Jermaine O'neal. Jermaine has never missed the playoffs. Ever. He has been on less talented teams than garnetts of last season with the pacers and still gotten the job done.

No excuses. They are facts.

Jermaine O'Neal didn't "allow Reggie the space to still be effective". That's bullshit and you know it. Reggie made his own space by running of multiple screens and keeping himself in top shape.

The Reggie of old did that, not the older reggie. Miller got the majority of his clean looks thanks to teams being concerned with Jermaine and to a lesser extent jackson.

Wally Szczerbiak? He was an All-Star in 2001. Sam Cassell? Sure, Cassell was always a solid player but he was never an all-star until he came to Minnesota. And it's not like Cassell got "better". He was 34 years old, his skills were declining. Rasho Nesterovic? Garnett got Rasho that big contract from the Spurs. He made Rasho look productive, that's something Tim Duncan can't even do. Trenton Hassell? He got Hassell that big contract and has put Hassell's name on the map. Troy Hudson?

Szcerbiak was an all star in 2002, not 2001. Cassell wasnt 34 when he joined the timberwolves. The interesting thing with cassell is he was the perfect teamate for KG. KG isnt a real leader on the court. He allows others to lead. Thats why Cassell had such a brilliant season in KG's MVP year. When Cassell went down, Garnett needed to take over and play like the mvp. Instead, it was szcerbiak who was their next best player and they bowed out quietly in 6 games. Rasho was rubbish in minnesota and remains to be rubbish. Troy Hudson was always explosive in Miami. Trenton Hassell imrpoved with Garnett, but no where near the level that Artest improved alongside Jermaine.

Or how about in 2002-2003? Wally Szczerbiak missed over 30 games that year and the team still got a top 4 seed. Can you please explain to me how a team with the starting line-up of Hudson-Anthony Peeler-Kendall Gill-KG-Rasho gets a #4 seed in the Western Conference? I rest my case.

KG isnt a bad player, but you compare that to the team the pacers put out there this season that made it to the second round. There is no comparison. What the pacers, led by Jermaine, did was better. Simple.

Did you watch Garnett this year at all? He was in the post about 3 or 4 times more than he usually was. He has gotten bigger and stronger, but he has always had the moves. Like I said, he has the best footwork in the league.

Garnet was in the post 3 or 4 more times? Wow, what an awesome post player he is developing to be. Nest season, he will be in be in the post another 3 or 4 more times. Thats incredible.

Jermaine can finish with either hand, has a hook shot from either hand. can face up, gets to the line, and is unstopable. Garnett too is unstopable, but he doesnt have the killer instinct (much like patrick ewing) to take over when his team needs it. Thats why went cassell went down they were in trouble against the lakers.

I just flat out disagree.

You flat out disagree? Lets see what you're disagreeing with:" Thats why I said he is a better defender of big men. KG is a more versatile defender, he can guard smaller players. But he isnt physical enough to bang with other bigs. He isnt as good as jermaine is on help. Im not saying Garnet is bad, Im just saying he isnt as good as jermaine in those aspects."
Hmm, you "flat out disagree" that Garnett is a more versatile defender? Hehe

If Jermaine is so good, why can't get the rebounds over those guys? Are you saying Dale Davis and Jeff Foster are better rebounders than Jermaine "rebounding warrior" O'Neal? Garnett gets rebounds because when a shot is in the air he goes for it. That ball is his. There is nobody else in the league who does it like Garnett.

No, I'm not saying they're better. But why stat pad? If they have the rebounding, why contest a rebound with a teamate just so you can have better stats? Doesnt make sense does it?

Garnett is clutch. I don't care what other people say about it. Garnett is clutch. I don't have to point out game winning baskets to do it either (Kings, Clippers, Kings, Pistons) but it's not just the shots. He'll get a key rebound or a key steal. He'll get a key block. He'll get double teamed and he'll kick it out to an open teammate for the wide open J. Garnett believes if he is being triple teamed that he shouldn't force the shot, but in the clutch he often takes over. So I don't know what you are talking about there. But I do agree with one thing, Garnett needs to get to the line more often.

Clutch isnt strictly about end of game situations. How many first rounds has garnett lost in? 7? You need to step up your game in critical situations. He hasnt done that in alot of his playoff appearances. Sure he had a great series against the kings. But Peja had a great series against the Mavs in 2003, does that make him clutch? No of course not. Even look at last season. There were plent of opportunities for KG to take over before the final month of the season. He didnt. as the teams mvp and superstar, that is unnaceptable.

You fail to mention that Jermaine O'Neal's team record was the EXACT SAME RECORD as the Timberwolves' but in a worse conference. Not to mention, I didn't know you could "lead your team to the playoffs" when you barely played in half of the teams games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rick Carlise carried that team into the post season, not Jermaine O'Neal.

Coaches dont win games. Players do.

Yes, and Garnett is a great leader, he has been to the post season 8 of his 10 years and is one of the most unselfish players in the league.

And missed the playoffs comming off an mvp season and 2 games from the finals.

Now onto Nick's post...

but i can't agree on the space/opportunities thing. one of the biggest crticisms of JO is his poor ability of passing out of double teams. as riot mentions, KG is often doubled teamed and makes better decisions passing out of that. additionally, KG is the vocal point of the offense. from what i see, i normally receives the ball FT line extended, then he and the rest of the offense reacts to the defense

That there lies his problem. He isnt that good of a shooter. He isnt bad, but he is much more effective in the post. If he went into the post and started to control games from there, there wouldnt be an argument. But he doesnt.

Also, he lets the defense dictate to him what he is going to do. There is nothing wrong with that, unless if its nots working. Missing the playoffs last season is proof it didnt work. He needed to be more assertive and take over games when he had to for the greater good of his team.

this is interesting & debateable. i think JO's best asset on D is his shot blocking ability from the help side. Foster normally takes on the better post scorer from the opposition. Now artest can bully and shut down any perimeter player not named RIP. plus he could guard a few post players and his defense is not reliant (unlike bowen) on funneling players into the helpside

Thats why I said the pacers team defense would be shot if Jermaine wasnt there. Dont get me wrong, the Pacers need artest to win. But they need jermaine more. He is their mvp.

which defense would be better? JO and 2 average wing defenders or Artest and 2 Jeff fosters?

Jeff foster isnt an average defender imo. give me two stephen jacksons and jermaine oneal anyday over artest and two jeff fosters.

[Indy]

As far as the Garnett-JO comparisons, I'm thrilled that this issue is even debatable. I have absolutly zero question in my mind about Garnett being better then JO. However, I love having JO on this team, and I am very pleased with what he brings to the table. Garnett is a top 20 player of all time, and I believe will eventually get a ring, probably in Minnesota. JO is a very underrated team leader, who everyone on the team respects and honors as the leader of the team. In that respect, JO is more important to the team then Artest. However, I totally disagree with you the statement of "Without Artest the Pacers wouldn't even make the playoffs." Artest will establish himself this season as a top 2 or 3 small forward in the NBA. I think his offense will hit another level this year, and the way he can shut down anybody in the game makes him so important to this team. Let's face it, although Jermaine was huge in the Pacers being 2 games away from the ECF this season, Reggie Miller was the motivation for that team, and he was the driving force. People were playing injured for him, people were doing everything they could to try and be that cinderella team that got RM his ring.

However, when you look at how the team did last season without Ron Artest, there was insurance at the Small Forward position for this team. Yes, SJax main position is Shooting Guard, but he was well equiped to play SF. Losing JO would mean a starting spot for Croshere or Bender, possibly Granger if he plays as big as he did in college in the NBA. Losing JO with this season's team would be absolutly fatal.

As to the question about losing JJ to the Suns. It upsets me that JJ won't be flourishing here, but when you look at his numbers, that's not even really a sure thing. As much as I love him, I think JJ may have been a little bit overrated within the Pacers fan base. This is a guy who averaged 5 points per game on 40 percent shooting from 3. We mostly base our love of the guy off of some clutch shots in the playoffs, but his playoff numbers weren't off the wall either. He did better in the first round with almost 6 points and 52% shooting from three, but in the Detroit series, his numbers were less then 2 ppg, and shooting 12% from three. If JJ flourishes in PHX, good for him, he was a very nice guy who never hesitated to talk to fans, and always pretented he remembered you from your last meeting. He just wouldn't get any PT on this team, Granger will certainly be better then him, and with Artest healthy, there just isn't a place for him.

[Matthew]

They made the playoffs last season without Artest didnt they? .

[Indy]

They made the playoffs last season without Artest didnt they? .

Who are you talking to?

[Riot]

I already covered that in my point. Please read before jumping to conclusions.

I'm so sorry.

Close is not good enough..

The fact of the matter is Garnett played hurt on a knee that he shouldn't have even been playing on, averaged 22ppg,13.5rpg and almost 6apg and took the team to one game out of the playoffs with a 44-38 record. Meanwhile, Jermaine O'Neal misses 38 games and he "leads" his team to the playoffs with a oh-so-better 44-38 record and wins in GAME 7 over the powerhouse that is the Boston Celtics. I'm sorry that I think that statement is completely pathetic.

The potential impact that had cannot be ignored.
The team went from 2 games from the finals to missing the playoffs completely. When MJ slapped kerr what harm did it do? They still won. The difference is Mike still showed trust in kerr when he needed too. Tough love only works when the trust and respect is still there. Kerr and Jordan were teamates before the incident, and MJ still delivered when needed.

I'm laughing, really I am. You think because Garnett punched a player that was never going to play a game as a Timberwolves (not even pre-season) that he costed the team? The player was Rick Rickert and he was drafted out of pity. He went to the University of Minnesota and we picked him because we felt sorry for him. He wasn't going to even get invited to training camp. It's not like he punched out a teammate, he punched a cocky player who wasn't even going to make the pre-season roster for taunting and playing dirty.

You want reasons why the team didn't do well? There were a lot of personal agendas that people wanted to accomplish. Sprewell wanted an extension, as did Cassell. Wally Szczerbiak said he did not want to come off the bench. Troy Hudson's ankle still wasn't even close to 100%. Cassell got hurt. Madsen got hurt. Griffin got hurt. Garnett's knee was awful. The team had to start Anthony Carter and John Thomas for christ sakes. And then in the middle of the season they decide to do a coaching change, and they fire a long time friend of Garnett's in Flip Saunders. The coaching staff didn't want to work for McHale. There was no motivation and it sure as hell wasn't Garnett's fault or Flip's fault. And putting the blame on Garnett punching out a rookie is wrong.

Garnett probably never extended himself too that rookie after that incident.

Do you really like assuming stuff? I bet you didn't know that Garnett met with "that rookie" and told him he was sorry the day after. How do I know this? It was printed in the local newspapers because "that rookie's" mom told the newspaper that Garnett talked to Rickert. They were cool. Rickert even said that he knew he deserved to be punched after the way he was playing. So don't assume anything like that.

Garnett has always been the type to lean back and not come to his teams rescue at critical times.

Yeah, I've used this example a lot but 2002-2003. Our all-star in Wally Szczerbiak misses 30 games and guess what? We still get the 4th seed in the Western Conference. Why? Because Garnett TOOK OVER. 23ppg,13.4rpg,6apg. Yeah, you are right. He doesn't step up at critical times. Why don't you actually watch Garnett one of these times? You seem ignorant like Garnett shys away in the clutch and is a really passive player. You don't get those stats by "leaning back and not coming to his teams rescue". To dominate, you have to be aggressive.

The team was just as talented as the season before. Sure they had injuries.. but they didnt play with any kind of urgancy. KG did after the all star break, but it was too late then.

I'm sorry, Garnett had that sense of urgency since day 1. It's the rest of the team that started getting the sense of urgency after the all-star break and after Flip was fired. That is a fact.

Googs was their best player in 97. Stephon had a brilliant rookie season. KG was good in his role, but its not like he "single handedly" took them there. But I'm interested as to how that relates to the comparison of Jermaine O'neal. Jermaine has never missed the playoffs. Ever. He has been on less talented teams than garnetts of last season with the pacers and still gotten the job done.

Garnett averaged 17ppg,8rpg and 2bpg in 1997. Googs averaged 20ppg and he was an all-star in Minnesota. No doubt Googs was huge. But there was also no doubt that since 1997, that 19 year old boy was the team's leader. GARNETT LED THAT TEAM. Just like you say, statistics aren't everything. Garnett was the heart and soul of that team.

The difference between Garnett's team last year and O'Neal's past teams? They actually cared. The cards were stacked high against the Timberwolves last year. Don't play the blame game. Bashing Garnett for giving 200% on a bum knee because the rest of the guys played with a lack of effort isn't fair. Not to mention Garnett got in quite a few players faces last year telling them to get their ass in line.

The Reggie of old did that, not the older reggie. Miller got the majority of his clean looks thanks to teams being concerned with Jermaine and to a lesser extent jackson.

Reggie Miller was still able to move pretty darn well even last year. Even without Jermaine, Reggie still would have done the same stuff he did in the end of the career.

Szcerbiak was an all star in 2002, not 2001.

Wally was an all-star during the 2001-2002 season. That's what I meant.

Cassell wasnt 34 when he joined the timberwolves.

Well, he's 35 right now and his birthday is in November so he'll be turning 36 this year and he arrived in Minnesota two years ago...

The interesting thing with cassell is he was the perfect teamate for KG.

And KG was the perfect teammate for Cassell.

KG isnt a real leader on the court. He allows others to lead.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. One of KG's strongest attributes is his leadership. You are crack if you think Garnett isn't a good leader. Can you please tell me who was the leader before Cassell got here? Wally Szczerbiak? Anthony Peeler? Oh wait I know, maybe it was Rasho Nesterovic or Joe Smith? Get real. Garnett plays with emotion, intensity and with energy. He leads by example and vocally. On and off the court.

Thats why Cassell had such a brilliant season in KG's MVP year. When Cassell went down, Garnett needed to take over and play like the mvp. Instead, it was szcerbiak who was their next best player and they bowed out quietly in 6 games.

Are you serious? When Cassell went down Garnett didn't take over and Wally did? Here are all the games Cassell didn't play in during the Laker series:

Game 2:
Garnett: 24 points (10-20), 11 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 steals.
Wally: 16 points (6-16), 5 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 turnovers.

Game 4:
Garnett: 28 points (12-24), 13 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 turnovers.
Wally: 19 points (6-15), 5 rebounds, 0 assists, 2 turnovers.

Game 5:
Garnett: 30 points (10-23), 19 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 block.
Wally: 11 points (3-9), 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 turnover.

Game 6:
Garnett: 22 points (9-20), 17 rebounds, 2 assists, 8 turnovers.
Wally: 13 points (3-8), 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 turnovers.

Not to mention Garnett had to play the point (7-1" PG) because Cassell and Hudson were out and all we had was stupid Darrick Martin.

Rasho was rubbish in minnesota and remains to be rubbish.

Rasho was a very solid player when he played for Minnesota and there is a reason why Spurs wanted him so bad.

Troy Hudson was always explosive in Miami.

Do you mean Orlando? Or maybe the Clippers? Or maybe Utah? The point is he was a journeyman.

Trenton Hassell imrpoved with Garnett, but no where near the level that Artest improved alongside Jermaine.

Hassell was cut by the Bulls.

KG isnt a bad player, but you compare that to the team the pacers put out there this season that made it to the second round. There is no comparison. What the pacers, led by Jermaine, did was better. Simple.

It was amazing that Pacers made it to the post season. It really was. But you have yet to answer my question. How in the world can a guy who played in barely half of the teams games "lead the team into the post season"?

Garnet was in the post 3 or 4 more times? Wow, what an awesome post player he is developing to be. Nest season, he will be in be in the post another 3 or 4 more times. Thats incredible.

Either you misread my post or I mistyped it. What I meant when I typed that was Garnett was in the post 3-4 times more than he use to be. Meaning if he was in the post 10 times a game the yea rbefore, he was in the post 40 times the next year. Things like that. I didn't mean 3-4 ACTUAL times.

Jermaine can finish with either hand, has a hook shot from either hand. can face up, gets to the line, and is unstopable. Garnett too is unstopable, but he doesnt have the killer instinct (much like patrick ewing) to take over when his team needs it. Thats why went cassell went down they were in trouble against the lakers.

Um, Garnett has a pretty darn good killer instinct too. The reason why we went down against the Lakers wasn't because we lost Cassell but it was because we lost our only point guard. We would have won that series if we would have had Troy Hudson or any other point guard not named Darrick Martin. KG had to play point guard.

You flat out disagree? Lets see what you're disagreeing with:" Thats why I said he is a better defender of big men. KG is a more versatile defender, he can guard smaller players. But he isnt physical enough to bang with other bigs. He isnt as good as jermaine is on help. Im not saying Garnet is bad, Im just saying he isnt as good as jermaine in those aspects."
Hmm, you "flat out disagree" that Garnett is a more versatile defender? Hehe

I disagree with the statement that he can't "bang with other bigs". He guards Tim Duncan pretty darn well.

No, I'm not saying they're better. But why stat pad? If they have the rebounding, why contest a rebound with a teamate just so you can have better stats? Doesnt make sense does it?

If he is such a great rebounder, he would have great position where he would be in better position to get that ball. It's not that Garnett steals rebounds away from his teammates, it's that Garnett sees the ball and he gets the ball. It doesn't matter who's in his way he's going to get that rebound. That's why he's the best rebounder in the game today.

Clutch isnt strictly about end of game situations. How many first rounds has garnett lost in? 7? You need to step up your game in critical situations. He hasnt done that in alot of his playoff appearances. Sure he had a great series against the kings. But Peja had a great series against the Mavs in 2003, does that make him clutch? No of course not. Even look at last season.

In the playoffs Garnett averages 22.3ppg, 13.4rpg, 5.0apg, 1.87bpg and 1.34spg. That isn't clutch?

There were plent of opportunities for KG to take over before the final month of the season. He didnt. as the teams mvp and superstar, that is unnaceptable.

What are you talking about? Garnett didn't step up in the final month of the season? Just because they lost means he didn't step up? I'm starting to get the idea that you didn't watch the Timberwolves all that closely last year, Mr. Matthew.

Coaches dont win games. Players do.

Excatly. And Jermaine missed half the season last year.

And missed the playoffs comming off an mvp season and 2 games from the finals.

The team missed the playoffs. You don't know what was going on last year, I do. Most people do know. I guess you just aren't "in the know". We don't blame Sprewell, Cassell and Wally just for the heck of it. There is a legit reason why the team didn't make the playoffs this year.

Why did the team do so well in 2003-2004? The three headed monster. Garnett-Sprewell-Cassell. Cassell missed time. Sprewell wasn't the same Sprewell. Garnett was the only one who was BETTER. Believe it or not, Garnett was a better player last year than he was in 2003-2004...but it's just the team was not.

[Riot]

They made the playoffs last season without Artest didnt they? .

Yeah Indy, god. Don't you know that this guy who played in half the team's games led the team to the playoffs.

[Matt]

JO's weakness is he shoots too many J's. I saw some stats of JO's games...in the games where he shoots a lot the Pacers lose most of the time. On the other hand when he posts they win.

KG's a beast...enough said.

[Matthew]

The fact of the matter is Garnett played hurt on a knee that he shouldn't have even been playing on, averaged 22ppg,13.5rpg and almost 6apg and took the team to one game out of the playoffs with a 44-38 record. Meanwhile, Jermaine O'Neal misses 38 games and he "leads" his team to the playoffs with a oh-so-better 44-38 record and wins in GAME 7 over the powerhouse that is the Boston Celtics. I'm sorry that I think that statement is completely pathetic.

You're sorry that your point is pathetic? Missing the playoffs is not equal to getting within 2 games of making the conference finals.

I'm laughing, really I am. You think because Garnett punched a player that was never going to play a game as a Timberwolves (not even pre-season) that he costed the team? The player was Rick Rickert and he was drafted out of pity. He went to the University of Minnesota and we picked him because we felt sorry for him. He wasn't going to even get invited to training camp. It's not like he punched out a teammate, he punched a cocky player who wasn't even going to make the pre-season roster for taunting and playing dirty.

You idiot. Stop trying to look for somthing that is not there. I said the potential impact that had cannot be ignored. Not that it was the be all and end of that season.

You want reasons why the team didn't do well? There were a lot of personal agendas that people wanted to accomplish. Sprewell wanted an extension, as did Cassell. Wally Szczerbiak said he did not want to come off the bench. Troy Hudson's ankle still wasn't even close to 100%. Cassell got hurt. Madsen got hurt. Griffin got hurt. Garnett's knee was awful. The team had to start Anthony Carter and John Thomas for christ sakes. And then in the middle of the season they decide to do a coaching change, and they fire a long time friend of Garnett's in Flip Saunders. The coaching staff didn't want to work for McHale. There was no motivation and it sure as hell wasn't Garnett's fault or Flip's fault. And putting the blame on Garnett punching out a rookie is wrong.

They arent reasons, they are excuses. Reasons are Malik Sealy passing away. Excuses are "i want more playing time". As a team leader, Garnett could have taken the team by the horns and steered it in the right direction.

Do you really like assuming stuff? I bet you didn't know that Garnett met with "that rookie" and told him he was sorry the day after. How do I know this? It was printed in the local newspapers because "that rookie's" mom told the newspaper that Garnett talked to Rickert. They were cool. Rickert even said that he knew he deserved to be punched after the way he was playing. So don't assume anything like that.

I said he probably never extended himself. I didnt say he didnt.

Yeah, I've used this example a lot but 2002-2003. Our all-star in Wally Szczerbiak misses 30 games and guess what? We still get the 4th seed in the Western Conference. Why? Because Garnett TOOK OVER. 23ppg,13.4rpg,6apg. Yeah, you are right. He doesn't step up at critical times. Why don't you actually watch Garnett one of these times? You seem ignorant like Garnett shys away in the clutch and is a really passive player. You don't get those stats by "leaning back and not coming to his teams rescue". To dominate, you have to be aggressive.

And KG lacks that in critical times. He is a great player, but he isnt a top tier player. There are times that, despite his awesome athletic advantage he has over his opponents, he shys away from big shots. There are times when he delievers. Same with Ewing and Barkley. But there are times when he doesnt. As much as I thought Tim Duncan choked in the finals, its better to go down shooting (8-30) than to go 5-11 in the biggest games of your life.

Ask Karl Malone.

I'm sorry, Garnett had that sense of urgency since day 1. It's the rest of the team that started getting the sense of urgency after the all-star break and after Flip was fired. That is a fact.

Its a fact? lol ok prove it then:)

Garnett averaged 17ppg,8rpg and 2bpg in 1997. Googs averaged 20ppg and he was an all-star in Minnesota. No doubt Googs was huge. But there was also no doubt that since 1997, that 19 year old boy was the team's leader. GARNETT LED THAT TEAM. Just like you say, statistics aren't everything. Garnett was the heart and soul of that team.

How many games did you see of the twolves in 97? you wouldve been no older than 10. Googs played brilliantly that season, and was the wolves best player. He was the only consistant threat in the half court. It wasnt until the next season, when Googs got injured did Garnett become their best player in minnesota.

The difference between Garnett's team last year and O'Neal's past teams? They actually cared. The cards were stacked high against the Timberwolves last year. Don't play the blame game. Bashing Garnett for giving 200% on a bum knee because the rest of the guys played with a lack of effort isn't fair. Not to mention Garnett got in quite a few players faces last year telling them to get their ass in line.

I'm not blaming KG. He played great in april. However, as the team leader, he is responsable to a degree of the teams sucess.And I wouldnt bash KG. I have 2 jersey's of his. I have none of Jermaine O'neal. I dont want one of jermaine. If anything, i support KG more than i support Jermaine.

Reggie Miller was still able to move pretty darn well even last year. Even without Jermaine, Reggie still would have done the same stuff he did in the end of the career.

What are you basing that on? Without Jermaine, reggie wouldnt have gotten into the playoffs, and wouldnt have posted anything like numbers he posted. Teams were so worried about jermaine it opened the perimeter up. Thats why Tinsley has been so effective in this league. He has all the space needed.

Well, he's 35 right now and his birthday is in November so he'll be turning 36 this year and he arrived in Minnesota two years ago...

so that means he wouldve turned 34 in november, so when he was traded to the wolves he wouldve been 33...

And KG was the perfect teammate for Cassell.

That is agreed.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. One of KG's strongest attributes is his leadership. You are crack if you think Garnett isn't a good leader. Can you please tell me who was the leader before Cassell got here? Wally Szczerbiak? Anthony Peeler? Oh wait I know, maybe it was Rasho Nesterovic or Joe Smith? Get real. Garnett plays with emotion, intensity and with energy. He leads by example and vocally. On and off the court.

Lead by example? KG is too passive on the offensive end. he lets the defense dictates to him what he is going to do in the game.

Rasho was a very solid player when he played for Minnesota and there is a reason why Spurs wanted him so bad.

Yes and that reason was they needed a big man to fill david robinsons shoes. Rasho was the same garbage player with KG as he was with Tim Duncan. MJ or Magic couldnt have made him look good.

Hassell was cut by the Bulls.

Lol what relivance does that have?

It was amazing that Pacers made it to the post season. It really was. But you have yet to answer my question. How in the world can a guy who played in barely half of the teams games "lead the team into the post season"?

This is the first time you have presented this question. The pacers were treading water until jermaine and jackson returned. once oneal did return, and dale davis was signed, their interior defense was set andthey actually had a player worth of running the offense through. without oneal, they wouldnt have made the playoffs.

I cant be bothered with the rest of the post.. this is becoming too long. I might respond to the rest later.

[Riot]

I could reply to that in the same way we were doing but then we'd go on forever. I think it's just best that we leave it at that. I'll let you have the final word.

[Fenix]

Rasho was the same garbage player with KG as he was with Tim Duncan. MJ or Magic couldnt have made him look good.

. You got that one right . I can't believe someone is actually paying him all that money. I would rather have Madsen controlling my paint. He actually cares.

[Indy]

http://www.hoopshype.com/previews/indiana.htm

That's a pretty good preview of the team, they have us ranked first in the division, and first in the East.

[Strike Freedom]

KG>JO (overall).
and KG is a complete player.

But, seeing from the stats of the teams, KG as the leader who did everything on the court, lost more games than the Pacers.
Whereas, on the other hand, Pacers got into the playoffs.

Holding other factors constant, ie, if KG didn't do too much on the court, and the each teammate do what they're best at, do you guys think that Wolves may win more games?

-----
*i'm just thinking whether it was because KG played too many roles that made his team worse.

[Riot]

Honestly, I'm surprised the Wolves even won 44 games last year. They deserved to win about 30. But Garnett carried the team the best he could.

[air gordon]

Jeff foster isnt an average defender imo. give me two stephen jacksons and jermaine oneal anyday over artest and two jeff fosters.

i overlooked this.

you're right. foster isn't an average defender- heis an above average defender

he's got decent size, moves well, and has great athleticism. now compared to the cream of the crop defensive big men, he is average, but not to the rest of the league

Also, he lets the defense dictate to him what he is going to do. There is nothing wrong with that, unless if its nots working. Missing the playoffs last season is proof it didnt work. He needed to be more assertive and take over games when he had to for the greater good of his team.

not necessarily. miami does this with shaq as well. since kg & shaq are players that are often double teamed, they give them the ball, let them read the defense/see where the double team is coming from, and go. it's done with TD too. of course you'll see guys attack the basket with no hesitation on occasion

That there lies his problem. He isnt that good of a shooter. He isnt bad, but he is much more effective in the post. If he went into the post and started to control games from there, there wouldnt be an argument. But he doesnt.

wasn't sure who you referring to: kg or jo
if you're talking about KG, you're dead wrong. he has one of the best fadeways, if not the best, from midrange

Thats why I said the pacers team defense would be shot if Jermaine wasnt there. Dont get me wrong, the Pacers need artest to win. But they need jermaine more. He is their mvp.

you didn't really explain why. i think the team would survive better with one artest and 2 fosters then JO and 2 average wing defenders (i'm not sure what kind of defender jackson is- he has the tools to be a good defender but isn't one). foster is a more then a serviceable defender in the post and then you have artest shutting down the best perimeter player.

A two average wing defenders is going to lead to defensive breakdowns from the perimeter, causing JO to rotate on the penetration, raising his chances of getting in foul trouble and more offensive rebounds for the opposition

[air gordon]

oh one more thing hehe. i know that other stuff is between you and riot. but comparing hassell's improvement to artest's due to the pf they play with is just wrong

their skillsets are nowhere close to one another. hassell will never ever be the player artest is, even in his dreams or playing on the court with 4 all nba-ers

k game on...

[j.23]

i cant believe i read that whole JO > KG debate
good stuff guys

but JO > KG in NBA Live

i can't wait to see ron artest play this year.. i say he's gonna be defensive player of the year once again (hopefully)

[Matthew]

not necessarily. miami does this with shaq as well. since kg & shaq are players that are often double teamed, they give them the ball, let them read the defense/see where the double team is coming from, and go. it's done with TD too. of course you'll see guys attack the basket with no hesitation on occasion

Maybe its that I expect guys to play like Michael Jordan/ Isiah/ Iverson where they do whatever it takes to score when the team needs it. The thing with duncan in his prime was he was able to make his move before the double actually arrived. same with shaq. Garnett really never does that.

But KG isnt a big time or clutch scorer. Jermaine has the ability to get to the line and score better in critical moments. Thats one of the main reasons id take him over KG right now (although, if were taking careers id take garnetts over Jermaines at this point)

wasn't sure who you referring to: kg or jo Razz
if you're talking about KG, you're dead wrong. he has one of the best fadeways, if not the best, from midrange

KG isnt a bad shooter, but to say he has a better midrange game than Kobe, Tmac, Ray Allen, Mike Bibby or Iverson is just wrong.

you didn't really explain why. i think the team would survive better with one artest and 2 fosters then JO and 2 average wing defenders (i'm not sure what kind of defender jackson is- he has the tools to be a good defender but isn't one). foster is a more then a serviceable defender in the post and then you have artest shutting down the best perimeter player.

Jermaine is a great help defender. He can shut down his man and alter/block shots from other players. Becuase of this, everyone has to be aware of where he is on the court when he is patrolling the lane. With him, it allows players to press up and contest shots, knowing they will get help from on of the better help defenders in the league. Without Jermaine, they would have to back off and give the player with the ball space to prevent the drive and play them for the jumpshot.

Thats why (with the exception of jordan and pippen), great teams always need a great defensive big man to win. From Laimbeer, to Olajuwon, Parish to David Robinson, Ben Wallace to Kareem.. and even further back with cowens, thurmond, chamberlin, russell.

You need big men patrolling the paint to win.

[air gordon]

so which is it then? first you say he isn't that good of shooter then just now he isn't a bad shooter? hehe..

it's not debateable on whether KG has one of the best fadeaways from midrange. that is his is bread and butter and it is virtually undefendable.

by me saying "if not the best", i left the door open to debate on whether he is the best or not at that.

JO has the ability .....to score better in critical moments.

what does that mean?
KG has shot 50% the past 2 seasons
JO- 45 & 43%

and i actually did some fishing around for clutch scoring at 82games.com. neither is signifcantly better then the other. i should point out that KG is behind TD as the best Defending PF. JO's not even in the top 10

i'm not going to totally depend on the stats for my argument hehe but it's difficult to keep track in my head on which player was performing better in the 4th or how many defensive stops each was getting

I'll agree JO is a great help defender, but not a great shut down defender man to man.

that's a legit point about needing a great defense in the interior

just keep in mind those bad boys of detroit had salley, edwards, and rodman along with laimbeer

and parish played with possibly the best frontcourt ever in mchale & bird

or hakeem played with otis thorpe

or that david robinson and wallace was/is even more lethal because they play with rasheed and duncan, respectively

[Matthew]

so which is it then? first you say he isn't that good of shooter then just now he isn't a bad shooter? hehe..

A player can have a respectable mid range jumpshot. That means its not that good, and its not that bad. Think Carmello Anthony.

it's not debateable on whether KG has one of the best fadeaways from midrange. that is his is bread and butter and it is virtually undefendable.

Its virtually undefendable becuase of athletcism and length, not becuase of his stroke. As soon as people step out he goes by him. rarely do you see him being pressed up from 15 feet. However, he could use that length in the post to be even more effective. His mid range shot isnt deadly becuase of the distance. in the post it would force the defender to actually play him closer, and then he can really take advantage of his athletcism.

I wish he played like Rasheed wallace actually.

and i actually did some fishing around for clutch scoring at 82games.com. neither is signifcantly better then the other. i should point out that KG is behind TD as the best Defending PF. JO's not even in the top 10

Who is ahead of him? If they have Reggie Evans or Troy Murphey ahead of Jermaine, you know its flawed.

I just think that with KG, he is too reliant on the defense. He lets that dictate to him how he plays. If they back off him, he shoots. If he gets double, he passes and most of the time doesnt get it back (this is his teamates fault). There are critical times in games and series that you have to not let the defense dictate to you what you are going to do. I think Jermaine is superior to Garnett in that aspect, and imho a better leader.

Garnett isnt abad player, or a bad leader. He isnt the epitme of great leadership though, and isnt unstopable. It seems like when someone points out his flaws people are shocked.

But then again, I think Iverson is 10 times the leader that tmac is, and im sure 90% of the nlsc thinks otherwise.

[Riot]

I just want to say one thing, you said it was good that Duncan went out shooting and it's better than going out going 5-11. When did Garnett go out shooting 5-11? He went shooting 9-20 while grabbing 17 rebounds.

[Matthew]

Thats a fair question. I have no real problem with Duncan going out shooting in a big game. But what I have a problem with is that Iverson (and other superstars, kobe, marbury) get criticised for the same thing.

[air gordon]

A player can have a respectable mid range jumpshot. That means its not that good, and its not that bad. Think Carmello Anthony.

kg's midrange is not comparable to anthony's. that's almost laughable. he doesn't go through 2/18 one game then 15/28 the next. he's one of the most consistent players in that aspect. Garnett has a career 49 fg% compared to anthony's 43. c'mon...

Its virtually undefendable becuase of athletcism and length, not becuase of his stroke. As soon as people step out he goes by him. rarely do you see him being pressed up from 15 feet. However, he could use that length in the post to be even more effective. His mid range shot isnt deadly becuase of the distance. in the post it would force the defender to actually play him closer, and then he can really take advantage of his athletcism.

yes it helps to have the length and athleticism, but the shot is not deadly or undefendable if he doesn't make the shot, at a very good rate albeit.

contrary what you think, he does get pressure from 15ft and defenders do play him for that fadeaway. teams don't always put their tall, gumpy center on him

I wish he played like Rasheed wallace actually.

wallace gets a lot of shit for wandering on the perimeter and shys away from the being the leader. that would be a step back for garnett

Who is ahead of him? If they have Reggie Evans or Troy Murphey ahead of Jermaine, you know its flawed.

troy murphy was ahead of him? i don't see anything wrong with the top 10.

JO is not a shut down player. he's a great shot blocker but isn't even considered an elite defender at his position

I just think that with KG, he is too reliant on the defense. He lets that dictate to him how he plays. If they back off him, he shoots. If he gets double, he passes and most of the time doesnt get it back (this is his teamates fault). There are critical times in games and series that you have to not let the defense dictate to you what you are going to do. I think Jermaine is superior to Garnett in that aspect, and imho a better leader.

Garnett isnt abad player, or a bad leader. He isnt the epitme of great leadership though, and isnt unstopable. It seems like when someone points out his flaws people are shocked.

i don't see the big hold up here. KG is too reliant? neither is significantly bettter then the other in the 4th qtr in terms of production.

let's talk about playoffs and stepping up/dictating. JO's offensive numbers are signifcantly lower then his regular season numbers... 43%, 37%, 16.ppg. the KG not being aggressive or stepping up argument would have been valid 2yrs ago

[Matthew]

kg's midrange is not comparable to anthony's. that's almost laughable. he doesn't go through 2/18 one game then 15/28 the next. he's one of the most consistent players in that aspect. Garnett has a career 49 fg% compared to anthony's 43. c'mon...

The way they rely on it is similar. And Carmelo's range isnt that bad, but he relies too much on it. Can you imagine KG's fg % if he was in the post more? Right now theres no real reason for him not be in the post.

yes it helps to have the length and athleticism, but the shot is not deadly or undefendable if he doesn't make the shot, at a very good rate albeit.

He does have an OK mid range shot, im not denying that. Its his elevation and length makes it so hard to block. Its not hard to block becuase he's a ray allen of midrange.

Have you ever seen him shoot a rainbow?

contrary what you think, he does get pressure from 15ft and defenders do play him for that fadeaway. teams don't always put their tall, gumpy center on him

If he has smaller players on him, then why isnt he posting them up?

Name 3 guys that can actually challange his shot. Tyson Chandler comes to mind.. but thats almost about it.

wallace gets a lot of shit for wandering on the perimeter and shys away from the being the leader. that would be a step back for garnett

Who cares what idiots think? Rasheed has ben to the finals twice, won once, and was one game away from winning back to back titles in a season and a half with the pistons. Rasheed D's up great, both off and on the ball. Posts up more than he shoots jumpers, although he does do alot of pick and pop with chauncey, and is the leader along with billups of that team.

Who made the guarantee against the Pacers last season? It wasnt Ben Wallace, or Chauncey, or Rip, or Larry Brown. It was sheed. The team was in danger of going down 3-1 and they needed a wake up call. He provided it.

troy murphy was ahead of him? i don't see anything wrong with the top 10.

If you honestly believe troy murphey is more important to a teams defense than jermaine oneal, then i dont know to say to you. You can have him, I'll be picking jermaine everytime over Troy Murphy

i don't see the big hold up here. KG is too reliant? neither is significantly bettter then the other in the 4th qtr in terms of production.

Finally you acknowledge why id take jermaine over kg. He is too reliant on what the defense is doing. KG is more talented, but I'd take Jermaine becuase I think he is a better leader. Becuase he doesnt let the defense dictate to him what he is going to do at critical times.

Is that so hard to understand? "kg isnt a god, someone would rather have jermaine oneal instead of KG. omg".