SLAM Classic : 75 Top Player Of All Time

[Stevan]

Kevin Johnson maybe?

[michael myers]

you can't truly measure an individuals greatness until after he retires so i don't know why mcgrady and bryant and all other current players are on the list

[Divan Santana]

Thank you EG once again for pointing out the obvious and saying how it is.

I wasn't going to comment further cause it was a bit ridiculous arguing with someone if they think that to start with, but you said it all nicely.

[EGarrett]

Of course. Who did Laettner play with during the summer before his rookie season? He played witht the Dream Team. He just never had the type of pro career that people expected him to have.

Nick Collison played with Team USA this summer. Will he be better than Carmelo Anthony?

Hill was a sophomore at the time the Dream Team was made...not near the level he would reach in school. The team selection means nothing...

But during college, he was definitely considered better than Grant.

Honestly...this is like having to drive to a store and buy a calculator to prove to someone that 1 + 1 = 2...

1994 Draft Scouting Reports

From there...

"Grant Hill came into the Duke program with unlimited potential and
left it as its best all-around player ever. As a frosh, he battled
injury problems to become Duke's highest scoring frosh (11 ppg) since
the Dawkins/Alarie days. As a sophomore, he became an unstoppable
weapon in transition and even stepped in at point guard when Bobby
Hurley was injured. As a junior, he became the leading scorer and the
team's best defender. And as a senior, he proved to be the most
versatile player in the country, leading a young team to great
heights."

"As for his skills, they seem made for the NBA. I think he'll make a
big impact quickly primarily for his defense. He can guard quick
players, power players, and top shooters and make them disappear.
He's effective out on the perimeter or doubling down low. He can
block shots and make spectacular strips. He plays well in the
halfcourt, but is made for a transition game. He can finish and make
foul shots. His rebounding is excellent, and is more impressive
because he's excellent at positioning. I haven't even mentioned his
incredible athleticism--this alone sets him apart from other Duke
players."

This was written in 1994. It also reflects the sentiment of most everyone during that period.

[Wall St. Peon]

He's the rest of that scouting report...his weaknesses...need to tell both sides...

His only weak spot is his shooting. His shot has improved greatly
since coming to Duke, but he's still not a great shooter. He also
might be a little reticent at first to take his jumper. He's also
been injury-prone at times in his career, although he was healthy this
year. Grant might take awhile to take charge of a team he's on, but
within two years, he should be a major impact player.

I see him as a Steve Smith sort of player, a guy who doesn't really
have a defined position but can run the offense, stick jumpers, and
get into the post. A smart team would use him in as many places as
possible.

I searched for Laetner's scouting report, but it wasn't on the site you got Hill's and I couldn't find it elsewhere on the internet. *shrug*

Carry on

[Full Surface]

Hey why isn't Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in that list?

[MC Hao]

Of course I do, if you want you can ask him

Which him? Sonny Hill, Peter Vescey, Dick Vitale or Kenny Smith? Or all of them? They're all MJ fans? I am surprised.

Well, you don't follow potential if they don't show any, Reggie Lewis showed his, if Hill did, I have to say he had just a little. Laettner was considered better than Hill when coming from College, Larry Johnson, none of them did what everyone expected, Hill didn't do what everyone expected

One of the most ridiculous paragraphs I've ever read. Grant Hill showed "only a little" potential?

Thank you, EGarrett. Obviously, a career average (over 9 seasons) of 21ppg, 7.8rpg, 6.1apg, and 1.5spg is not little potential. What's potential to you anyway? 50ppg, 20rpg, 15apg, and 10spg? I don't recall Reggie Lewis played up to that potential.

However you want to have in mind the fact of his death and compare that with Hill injuries, well the fact that he died doesn't make you believe he was a bad player or worse than Hill, does it?

NO, I was saying IF Reggie Lewis didn't die, he could have been a great basketball player. But no one can prove that now, neither can you, since he's dead. You don't know if he's gonna become better or worse. Lewis is not a bad player, I never said he is. But looking at both of their careers, Hill's career just happen to be better.

you are still waiting for Hill to explode offensively just like Stackhouse did few seasons ago.

He already did in his last year with Pistons, averaged over 25ppg with 48.9 FG%. Though it's not better than Stack's 29.8ppg, however, that's very good offensively. And let's not forget that Stack got his 29.8ppg by being the only true offensive option on the team, while Hill got his 25.8ppg with Stack's 23ppg alongside.

Stackhouse has shown he's better

I'm not saying Hill is not better

I don't get you, you were not saying Hill is worse Stack, but then you said Stack is better Hill? Confused? Let's break it down, "Hill not worse the Stack", that means he can be either equal to Stack or better; "Stack is better Hill", that means Hill can not be better or equal to Stack. What? That really doesn't make sense.

Obviously I showed you why

You showed nothing but your own opinions.

are you going to say that Joe Dumars is not supposed to be on that list over Hill?,

He is indeed not on that list, what am I gonna complain about?

if you are a Hill fan, you just have to say MC Hao, I will understand that but obviously the reality is other.

OK, time to realise reality:
MC Hao's Favorite Basketball Player=Toni Kukoc
I said it many times before, maybe you didn't notice it.

Anyway, when Dumars heard Hill didn't want to be a Pistons anymore, he took him & drove him to the Airport after the trade so Hill could catch up the next flight,

Is that the truth? Really? Are you 100% sure? Because I think that the Pistons knew something about Hill's injuries so they traded him while they still could.

now you see the career Hill has had with the Magic.

I agree, Hill's career in Orlando is a disaster, but you can't judge how good a player is base on his most recent 47 games. That's not logical.

Hey why isn't Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in that list?

And who's at NO.7?

[magius]

oscar robertson's in the right place

28 ppg plus around 10 boards and 10 dimes??? per game?! its over.

magics like a mini oscar roberston and kidds like a mini magic

[scubilete]

Hey why isn't Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in that list?

Refuze, Kareem is number 7 there.

Be honest...did you watch the NBA at all during the mid and late 90's?

I'm going to be honest with you, I've had watched NBA since 1987. Every single year.

One of the most ridiculous paragraphs I've ever read.

Welcome Back EG, where were you? I missed you, . Do you really think that paragraph was ridiculous? You are just showing me you are the one who doesn't know about Laettner & Larry Johnson. Laettner was chosen to be part of the USA Original Dream Team over Isiah Thomas. And it was just cause the career he had in college, go back to the books and read a little and you will know about him. Hill was nothing compared with Laettner coming from college.

Grant Hill showed "only a little" potential?

Well to tell you the truth, I expected a lot more from him, he showed he got good stuff but for a very short time.

Laettner was considered better than him?

Yes he was, without doubt about it, you and your friend Divan are the only ones who can come up with something like that, Not even Hill would say something like that, Laettner coming from College was considered way much better than Hill like it or not. Did you watch the NBA from 92 to 95 & Drafts for those years? doesn't look like.

Explain how a kid who comes into the NBA and averages 20, 6 and 5 his first year...getting voted an All-Star starter as a rookie displays no potential?

Now this is ridiculous. EG, haven't you seen those threads about the all-star games, we are tired of discussing the situation, and you still don't understand something. Fans vote for whoever they want to see starting in the all-star, Yao Ming started this year, even he's not better than Shaq, that's what people wanted to see, so don't come with that crap that he started as a rookie and bla bla.

You seem about as ignorant of things that happened 4 years ago as most people are of things that happend 20 years ago...please rent a video or something...it's just getting ridiculous...

No really, 4 years ago he was playing really good, what about 2 years later. Are you so blind that you can't even admit Hill will never get back to the level he was supposed to play.

He led the league in triple-doubles for 3 or 4 years straigt...averaged about 20, 9 and 7 for 4 years.

Bla, bla, bla... The guy [b]was great but not anymore EG, I don't have to rent videos since his career was shorter than mine. He led the league in triple doubles few seasons because nobody else than Kidd is able to have a lot of triple doubles, so you were just going to have those 2 competing in that area, I bet if Bird or Magic were playing when he was, he wouldn't have led the nba in that category cause those 2 were triple double guys, not just 5 or 7 during one season, those were more than 10. I watched him playing, he played great, but he's done, don't you understand that?. You don't do everything in just 4 or 5 years. Larry Johnson had 4 years great as well, why don't you make him a hall of fame?. 4 or 5 years are nothing EG, you need to be consistent and the injuries didn't let him be, He's done. Hill will get to 15,000 points almost retiring, Hill maybe will never get to his 5,000 reb. Accept it. Hill will comeback just as a good player, not as a great one. Too many surgeries to same knee, don't you understand that?

Stackhouse, You can't compare (Hill) now a handicap & done playing with a player who can still score 30 per game. That's why Stackhouse is better. Hill career was great but he needs a miracle to come back to his old form.

you can't truly measure an individuals greatness until after he retires

Completely true.

I wasn't going to comment further cause it was a bit ridiculous arguing with someone if they think that to start with, but you said it all nicely.

Everything I said for EG, goes for you as well Divan, try it and you will understand it if you can.

Nick Collison played with Team USA this summer. Will he be better than Carmelo Anthony?

Laettner didn't play in a regular USA team EG, he played in the original Dream Team, so don't confuse anything around.

I see him as a Steve Smith sort of player, a guy who doesn't really have a defined position but can run the offense, stick jumpers, and get into the post.

Wooooooooooo, Thanks Shane. ha ha ha ha. There you got EG, so you just typed what was convenient for you?. Please, don't even try to embarrass yourself looking for Laettner file cause it will hit you so hard, I won't see you around ever.

I don't get you, you were not saying Hill is worse Stack, but then you said Stack is better Hill?

Don't get crazy MC Hao, that is not my intention. Hill might be better but hasn't shown it cause of his injuries, he's done so that's why Stack has shown he's better. I would prefer having Stackhouse at the moment than Hill, wouldn't U?

[MC Hao]

Hill might be better but hasn't shown it cause of his injuries, he's done so that's why Stack has shown he's better.

So you are basically saying Hill is worse because of his injuries. That is much like saying Reggie Lewis is worse than Hill because of his death, which you strongly dissagreed. So let me ask you this question: if Stack hits his head and gets retarded right now, who's better, a washed-up Hill or a retarded Stack?

True, Hill is very much washed-up right now. But you can't forget what he had done. He showed that he was a great player when he was healthy, as EG said, "He led the league in triple-doubles for 3 or 4 years straigt...averaged about 20, 9 and 7 for 4 years." You can't just ignore that fact. That was something, not a lot of players can accomplish that, especially not Stack. Hill is a great player and could have been better if it weren't for his injuries.

Fans vote for whoever they want to see starting in the all-star, Yao Ming started this year, even he's not better than Shaq, that's what people wanted to see, so don't come with that crap that he started as a rookie and bla bla.

You can say Yao didn't deserve it, but Hill truly deserved his. Tell me that 20ppg, 5+rpg, and 5+apg are not all-star stats. I'll name some all-stars who are getting that kind of stats right now: Kobe, KG, Steve Francis, T-Mac, and Monster Mash. Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker are pretty close.

4 or 5 years are nothing EG,

Sadly that's about how many good years Reggie Lewis had, and he became a Hall of Famer in 95.

I would prefer having Stackhouse at the moment than Hill, wouldn't U?

No, I would prefer neither one of them. I'd prefer Toni Kukoc for the moment, because he's a good player and I worship him blindly.

[Full Surface]

Ooh, I didn't see that

[scubilete]

So you are basically saying Hill is worse because of his injuries.

No, basically I'm saying (and you know this well), Hill will not be back in his old form.

if Stack hits his head and gets retarded right now

If Stack hits his head and gets retarded he will be a hall of famer for being the first one doing it. However, Hill is not the first one who gets injured. Dominique Wilkins had a much more severe injury, and he came back as an all-star, Hill hasn't done that, Hill is just coming and getting injured again, I don't know if the problem are the surgeons or what but that is not supposed to happen.

But you can't forget what he had done.

I haven't forgotten what he has done. In fact, I pasted his stats so we could see what he has done over and over. Many said you don't have to use stats, oh well, How the hell do u know Oscar & Wilt were so great, cause someone else told you? No, cause of their numbers.

He showed that he was a great player when he was healthy

True, but again MC Hao, he's done, he's over, that's it, finished, game over, no more "health".

You can't just ignore that fact. That was something, not a lot of players can accomplish that, especially not Stack.

Of course he can, he's just not doing it, but what makes you think he can't?

Sadly that's about how many good years Reggie Lewis had, and he became a Hall of Famer in 95.

True as well as Drazen, but check something. They recognize it, Hill is not death, Hill will come back and his numbers are not going to be the same. Hill numbers will get lower for coming back and he will struggle again, and his numbers will be ridiculous once he decides to retire, same thing happened to Larry Johnson.

[MC Hao]

No, basically I'm saying (and you know this well), Hill will not be back in his old form.

I do know this well as I told you he's very washed-up. But that's not the argument here. The argument is Stack being better than Hill, and you've done nothing to prove that.

If Stack hits his head and gets retarded he will be a hall of famer for being the first one doing it.

No, he won't.

Dominique Wilkins had a much more severe injury, and he came back as an all-star, Hill hasn't done that, Hill is just coming and getting injured again

Hill's injuries has nothing to do with his basketball abilities, the injuries doesn't change how good he is. You keep talking about his injuries which have nothing to do with what a great basketball player Grant Hill is. So what Wilkins came back as an all-star, his good healing ability has nothing to do with his ability to do stuff on the court. It's not Hill's problem that he kept getting injured, it's his healing ability. You can't judge a player's greatness base on how often he gets injured.

I haven't forgotten what he has done. In fact, I pasted his stats so we could see what he has done over and over. Many said you don't have to use stats, oh well, How the hell do u know Oscar & Wilt were so great, cause someone else told you? No, cause of their numbers.

Exactly, so why the hell are you still ignoring Hill's numbers?

he's done, he's over, that's it, finished, game over, no more "health".

So what if he's finished? At this stage of his career, you still expect him to put up numbers to compete with guys like Kobe, KG, Mashburn, etc.? What he is today doesn't change what he had been. He was able to do what he had done and that's the important thing.

Of course he can, he's just not doing it, but what makes you think he can't?

I showed proofs that Hill could and did, can you show any proofs? Can you back up your opinions with some facts? Can you not keep saying that for the sake of argument and actually prove something? NO, you haven't done so.

They recognize it, Hill is not death

You don't need to die for people to recognize you. Any basketball fan will recognize Grant Hill for what he has done whether or not he ever gets healthy again.

his numbers will be ridiculous once he decides to retire

Ewing and Olajuwon both had ridiculous numbers in their last year, SO WHAT?! They still got recognized for what they had done for the game of basketball! Another example is Dan Marjele, in his farewell season with the Suns, he wasn't near as good as the old "Thunder Dan", SO WHAT?! He still got recognized for what he had done for the organization, just yesterday. Now so what if Grant Hill will never be as good as he once was, he will still be recognized for what he had done for this league and for all the things that he achieved!

[Wall St. Peon]

If Grant Hill's in there...Penny Hardaway should be in there as well. Penny made it to the finals, Hill didn't...and Penny's still actually playing...

Hill's done for. He shouldn't be in the list simply because he's had basically a four or five year career stopped short by injuries. Yeah, triple doubles and what not, but what does he have to show for it? Mediocre playoff performances and first round exits, and he's not even playing. If Hill's there because of those few great seasons, Penny Hardaway and Larry Johnson should be in there.

You guys turned the discussion silly ...it's not about who Grant Hill is more talented than...it's about whether or not he should be there. Compare him to other great players whose careers were cut short by injuries, not by death, and most certainly don't bring up Christian Laettner...he's had a solid career, but he's definately is not more talented than Grant Hill...

[scubilete]

Hill's injuries has nothing to do with his basketball abilities

Of course it does, are you saying Hill will come back and average 25 ppg and 10 rebs per game? The injuries have a lot to do with players abilities since injuries limit those abilities.

You keep talking about his injuries which have nothing to do with what a great basketball player Grant Hill is.

You keep saying he is, and He's not anymore MC Hao. He was, he did, all those are past. "His injuries have nothing to do with what a great basketball player he is", well, I can name 50 players who were all stars and after an injury were not great basketball players anymore, including Hill.

his good healing ability has nothing to do with his ability to do stuff on the court.

Your madness is making you look like an ignorant.

You can't judge a player's greatness base on how often he gets injured.

At this stage of his career, you still expect him to put up numbers to compete with guys like Kobe, KG, Mashburn, etc.?

I'm not judging him, I'm just saying he's not going to get back to his old form, you already see what he did, don't expect any more from him cause it will be too much to ask. He better retire while he's great because if he keeps playing his numbers will turn ridiculous.

Exactly, so why the hell are you still ignoring Hill's numbers?

I'm not ignoring his numbers, once again I copied & paste those numbers so you could look at them without going to NBA.com.

Can you not keep saying that for the sake of argument and actually prove something? NO, you haven't done so.

Stackhouse Career 8 seasons - Rebs: 2,123 - Asst: 2,302 - Stls: 615 - Blk: 371 - Pts: 12,039 - Best season Avg: 29.8

Plus, Stackhouse back to 01-02 (Rebs: 4.1, Asst: 5.3, Stl: 1.0, Avg: 21.0) Does that answer your question? Stack just need to work on his rebs if he wants to accomplish that. That proves he can do it.

Any basketball fan will recognize Grant Hill for what he has done whether or not he ever gets healthy again.

Again MC Hao, I do recognize it but are other players who have done a lot more than him (Dumars, R. Pierce, K.J., L. Nance, etc)

Ewing and Olajuwon both had ridiculous numbers in their last year, SO WHAT?!

They didn't get playing time and they had ridiculous numbers cause of age, not cause injuries. You must know this is not Hill last year unless he decides it to make it, if he retires then he retired at a good time, but if he's coming back, he will never see a complete season with that kind of numbers he showed before.

he wasn't near as good as the old "Thunder Dan", SO WHAT?! He still got recognized for what he had done for the organization, just yesterday.

Thanks, another player who didn't make the first 75. J. Hornacek, one more. I'll ask you this MC Hao, let's be sincere. 3 Years back in the same list, wouldn't you have put Hill among the best 60? Now he's 74, what will happen next?

Mediocre playoff performances and first round exits, and he's not even playing. If Hill's there because of those few great seasons, Penny Hardaway and Larry Johnson should be in there.

I completely agree.

[Drex]

I can name 50 players who were all stars and after an injury were not great basketball players anymore, including Hill.

There's only 49 left........

[EGarrett]

It looks like I've missed some things...but I'll reply as best I can without going into the dozens of points that flew by...

Scub asserted, in so many words, that...

One, Christian Laettner coming out of college was considered better than Grant Hill coming out of college.

Two, Jerry Stackhouse right now is better than Grant Hill in his prime.

That's what I'm discussing...the injury etc are irrelevant...

People who say that Stackhouse averaging 29 points per for one year is somehow better than Hill need to remember that Stackhouse is a shooting guard and Grant Hill is a point forward. The shooting guard's job is to score and a point forward's job is to rebound, initiate offense, set-up teammates and slash to the basket. Stackhouse had one year where he was among the top scorers at his position...Hill had about 4 years where he was the best rebounder and assist man at his position...

And again...the question remains...when will Stack make first-team All-NBA and win the IBM Award if he is better than Hill in his prime?

Oh...and by the way...though the injury has nothing to do with this...by your logic I'm better than Wilt Chamberlain because Chamberlain is dead. So you might not want to somehow use the fact that Hill is done now to assert that Hill wasn't great when he was healthy...

As for Laettner...I showed you a Grant Hill scouting report that said, unequivocally, that Grant Hill was the best player Duke had ever had at that point. That's in the post-Christian Laettner era. Plain and simple...if you say different I ask that you do me the same favor and show me evidence. The Dream Team selection means nothing because they wanted to choose a college player for tradition sake and ended up with Laettner. Just like with Collison that doesn't mean that the player they pick is better than everyone else in college...and even if it did Hill was still developing at that point.

[MC Hao]

EG, let's just forget about him, he can never understand, his logic is fucked up. I am done with this ignorant fool. There's no point in arguing if the other isn't understanding. End of discussion.

[scubilete]

by your logic I'm better than Wilt Chamberlain because Chamberlain is dead.

That would go to MC Hao logic, since I'm not comparing death guys with those who can play. I didn't even bring the death part, MC Hao was the one complaining that the guy is death.

He and Hill basically face the same situation

his logic is fucked up. I am done with this ignorant fool.

Your madness is making you look like an ignorant.

Now I add, you are not just ignorant but also unable to have a discussion without using those F words as I have shown you before. It's for me a pleasure to see you once again using those, since you can't control your emotions, I don't think you have any logic left cause obviously you are not able to understand anybody else's points, and when you have done it, you tried to change the subject to keep arguing. Try to relax MC Hao, too much stress is never good, do you see how nice I take your F words everytime you use them?, that's life, I don't use it but I have to accept others must use it in order to have a conversation or argument.

As far I'm concern, all your questions were answered, so that's why you came with that comment which will put the final period to the paragraph related to you.

[Drex]

I'm still waiting for the other 49 players.....
Anyway, sorry to say this, but, the thread was getting interesting, until EG posted, and Scubilete ignored almost all his post and replied about the logic of MC Hao.

[MC Hao]

As far I'm concern, all your questions were answered

NO, not at all...

Which him? Sonny Hill, Peter Vescey, Dick Vitale or Kenny Smith? Or all of them? They're all MJ fans?

What's potential to you anyway? 50ppg, 20rpg, 15apg, and 10spg?

He is indeed not on that list, what am I gonna complain about?

Is that the truth? Really? Are you 100% sure?

So let me ask you this question: if Stack hits his head and gets retarded right now, who's better, a washed-up Hill or a retarded Stack?

I showed proofs that Hill could and did, can you show any proofs?

Can you back up your opinions with some facts?

Can you not keep saying that for the sake of argument and actually prove something?

Still no answer for ALL those questions I asked, but I am not surprised. You are as ignorant as one can be.

unable to have a discussion without using those F words...

No no, not to have, it's to end. I was trying to end the discussion but aparently you won't let go.

...as I have shown you before.

Shown what before? You ain't shown shit.

I don't think you have any logic left cause obviously you are not able to understand anybody else's points

Nice comeback! I mean REALLY!!! EXCEPT that is exactly what I said to YOU.

MC Hao was the one complaining that the guy is death.

Complain? Complain? What did I complain about his death?

Scubilete ignored almost all his post and replied about the logic of MC Hao.

Who's ignorant?? I mean REALLY.

do you see how nice I take your F words everytime you use them?

What? What's that smell?......PUSSY.

[michael myers]

yo he's just abiding by the guidelines fool, i mean REALLY..........loser

[Andrew]

OK, that's about enough, this thread will be locked. My apologies to gloveguy.