Isiah asks Carter

EGlinton wrote

Your turning into a real Dan/Shane wannabe. Get a life and stop with the stupid games. As hysterical as they are.

Start watching tapes, now that you missed Jordan starting years, of who are the developers & innovators of the game and then you can argue that he wasn't under anyone's shadow, if you still believe it that way.

MJ came out and played his own game. A style that was not the norm back in those days. He made an impact right out of college, and if he was under anyones shadow, it wasn't for long.

yeah a legend of the game, so what?

And you call yourself a basketball fan. That is showing no repect for one of the games greats, who made basketball the game it is today.

It does if you are watching Basketball since when? 94 or 95

It doesn't make sense because I can't read it. You really need an English tutor.

In more seasons.

So? They would have been roughly equal if Jordan hadn't retired...at least Malone didn't cop out twice...

Where are you getting this idea that I am calling everyone haters. I have said it to a couple of people who said MJ didn't deserve the start. I believe you are a hater if you don't give MJ his props even though you may not like him. When you are so blinded by your hate for a player that you can't admit what he has done for the game.

You are calling everyone haters...you ignore all the positive things I say about Jordan and focus on the negative and call me a hater...I'm realistic, not a hater...big difference.

And what does this have to do with this conversation. There has been nothing mentioned in this post that would need knowledge from before that era in the NBA.

Yeah, it would...if you want respect for Jordan, you have to respect the Oscar Robertsons, Wilt Chamberlains, Bill Russells, and Jerry Wests. You HAVE to, otherwise your argument is nothing but absurd.

He didn't. Give me one good reason apart from "the fans voted him in" why he deserved that spot.

There shouldn't be any other reason. Fans choose the starters. Period.

A lot of you guys need a serious reality check. Arguing whether Carter deserved to start over Jordan? Or Jordan over Carter? Come on!!!! Quit smoking that "stuff"!

Neither one deserved to start...but Carter did because he was voted. Simple as that.

The All Star game is supposed to be a showcase for the best players IN A PARTICULAR SEASON to shine on the national stage. As you know most players don't get that kind of exposure during the season since most games are scheduled for broadcast because of their interest factor. You know, defending champs, local teams, etc. With that in mind, would ANY of you consider EITHER Jordan or Carter one of the 12 best in the Eastern Conference this year? I think that answer is a resounding NO. So neither one "deserved" to be there without buying a ticket.

Exactly. The fans are ignorant, therefore Carter was voted a starter. They wanted to see him...but he was voted a starter, therefore there shouldn't have been controversy. Penny, Hill, and Mourning were all voted as starters when they were injured and they played...why can't Carter? Oh, because Jordan is on the bench, that's why...

HOWEVER. We all know it is a popularity contest. I have been watching these games for many years. There have been numerous instances of a player being voted in because he is traditionally a fan favorite. The Magic incident being one of the most noticeable. In fact it has been so bad on occasion that guys who deserved to play never got the call on their one good shot.

Which is why Jordan started over Carter...

So lets be real here. This argument is really about who is the most popular. Since this is essentially a popularity contest where the winners get some national exposure and a chance to pick up a little pocket change. In that case they both should definitely have been in the game. And with them being two of the most popular players to play in the last decade, they both probably should have started too. But that is only if you believe the game to be about who is most popular, and not about who has excelled the most this season.

Actually, the argument is about logic. Is it logical for Jordan to be on the team when there are players who ahve done just as much, statisically, in the league aren't? No, it's not. Is it fair? No. Is Jordan on the team because of his popularity? Yes. Will Clinton and other Jordan fans who don't see other points of views realize this? I'm doubting it. But we can try.

Is it too hard for you, or any of the other Jordan haters (Dan, Shane, Ben) to understand that we were farewelling a legend of the game. If you don't think he is the best, he has to be in your top 5. But the respect had to be shown.

I'm not a Jordan hater. I'm a Jordan realist, there's a difference. I know he WAS an awesome player, and I know he's done a lot for the league, both positive and negative. He's in my top 10, not top five. He could crack the top five, but it's debatable. I show respect...I just don't think you're arguing logically at all and you're completely ignoring the other side, which is absurd. Carter had the spot and was gipped out of it because of Jordan's popularity, simple as that. How disrepsectful of it is it to Carter that Jordan wouldn't take Iverson or TMac's spots, but he'd take Carter's? It's pathetic and selfish.

Malone had more time to score those points. If MJ didn't retire to play baseball, and then again after the second three-peat. MJ would have scored more points than Karl.

Jordan didn't have to retire three times...

MJ came out and played his own game. A style that was not the norm back in those days. He made an impact right out of college, and if he was under anyones shadow, it wasn't for long.

He did, but that was in the past. This is now. Carter made an impact right out of college, so did Grant Hill, Shaq, and Penny Hardaway, among many, many other players. What's your point?

And you call yourself a basketball fan. That is showing no repect for one of the games greats, who made basketball the game it is today.

Yet you're ignoring the past completely and jocking Jordan so bad you have imprints from the straps on your forehead...

You are calling everyone haters

No I'm not. How many times do I have to say this. I have only called people who said Jordan shouldn't start in his final All Star game haters. This is not everyone.

if you want respect for Jordan, you have to respect the Oscar Robertsons, Wilt Chamberlains, Bill Russells, and Jerry Wests.

I do respect all those players. They are 4 of the greatest ever. But for one or more reasons I don't think they were as good as MJ.

He's in my top 10, not top five.

What players would you rate ahead of MJ?

I just don't think you're arguing logically at all and you're completely ignoring the other side, which is absurd.

What other side? You mean the "fans" voting in Carter?

Carter had the spot and was gipped out of it because of Jordan's popularity, simple as that.

It wasn't only because of Jordans popularity, it was because it was his last All Star game. If this wasn't his last year, Carter wouldn't have stepped aside and he wouldn't have had a reason to.

He did, but that was in the past. This is now. Carter made an impact right out of college, so did Grant Hill, Shaq, and Penny Hardaway, among many, many other players. What's your point?

That was aimed at scubilete who said MJ was in others shadows when he entered the league.

Yet you're ignoring the past completely and jocking Jordan so bad you have imprints from the straps on your forehead...

How am I ignoring the past. This thread has nothing to do with the past. This is about this years All Star game.

Your turning into a real Dan/Shane wannabe. Get a life and stop with the stupid games. As hysterical as they are.

Sorry for that, I really thought I was offending EG not you, in fact I felt bad for EG since he's a little more understanding.

It doesn't make sense because I can't read it. You really need an English tutor.

No, I don't need english tutoring. You will need to wear glasses now that "you can't read that".

And you call yourself a basketball fan. That is showing no repect for one of the games greats,

Yes, I'm a basketball fan in general, not a MJ fan, not a Lebron fan, etc. If you see, there's a big difference between being a MJ fan and a basketball fan. I do respect great ones, I do respect MJ but you don't get this, if MJ was not chosen to start, he didn't have to. Just because what he has done doesn't give him right to start anywhere, that's why there are rules. If the league decides to change the rules so I would agree with you.

Most of the people thought nobody would ever be better than Malone at PF, now that they see Duncan & Garnett, they are with their mouth open. The league keeps getting new & better talent and will be a joke if you start honoring the last year of every great player, don't you think? That's the point.

I've seen your comments about Bryant and that makes me think you are a Kobe fan, when Kobe gets old, maybe at that time most of the scoring records would be broken by him, does he has to start his last year all-star game cause what he did in the game?. Clinton, wake up, this is not a tribute game, whoever who comes better than him will be. If MJ was in the west, would you agree if the manager takes Kobe spot to let MJ start, specially when you voted to see Kobe? I don't think so.

Magic would have come from the bench if nobody would have offered his spot, but even MJ got the spots offered, he wanted those to start begging and get everyone mad like you are, just cause he was not going to start.

This is not hate, this is the real life, it is being realistic. I don't know if you've ever had a chance to think about what we are saying here. I believe you just come here and reply in a way that sooner or later you will realize you were wrong.

How am I ignoring the past. This thread has nothing to do with the past.

Well, you just said MJ had to start cause what he had done, is it this year or in the past? I don't think you meant this year so you were talking about the past, it has much to do with the past.

MJ came out and played his own game.

That's right.

A style that was not the norm back in those days.

Maybe, I believe Dr. J was in the league and Dominique was flying all over.

No I'm not. How many times do I have to say this. I have only called people who said Jordan shouldn't start in his final All Star game haters. This is not everyone.

Clinton, everyone said Carter was supposed to start, didn't they? how does anyone talks to the league, isn't it by votes?, that's how everyone talks to the league. That's the only way you can show whatever you're saying or think to the league. Don't you think? You are calling everyone who voted for Carter/T-mac/Iverson a hater, cause I don't remember if MJ was in the F or G, I didn't even care that cause I was not going to vote for him, but that's the case here, the people said those were the starters.

They are 4 of the greatest ever. But for one or more reasons I don't think they were as good as MJ.

OMG, Clinton, Just ignorants could ever say something like that, notice that you are saying "as good as" that's over the limit. You got amazed with Kobe's 50+ game. You will be surprised with anyone scoring 50+. Wilt Chambelain averaged 50+ PPG a whole season, that's 82 games scoring 50+ and that you would call not "as good as". Ignorants.

I won't argue with you anymore, If I continue I would get banned so I'd better stop. You know just what MJ has done since 95 so that's not much, I thought your knowledge in Basketball was better. Unless you are repeating whatever silly Walton says like: "After what MJ has done for this game, oh my God, it would be shame for the NBA not letting him start". did I sound like Walton there?,

Every year you will hear commentators just BShitting like that and that doesn't mean it has any sense for you to repeat them. And like I told Shane before, something is white but if a MJ fan said that is green, there's no way to show him that he's wrong, I guess this is your case.

The Game is Over, MJ missed an easy dunk again, got some of his shots blocked, missed his first 7 or 8 shots and the trophy was stolen, I don't know who did it but KG sounds like him. I'm glad the west players tributed him like that.

No I'm not. How many times do I have to say this. I have only called people who said Jordan shouldn't start in his final All Star game haters. This is not everyone.

I'm not a hater...I'm a realist. I think logically about things, and Jordan starting this last All-Star game wasn't logical. I didn't make sense, it wasn't fair, and it was just...wrong.

I do respect all those players. They are 4 of the greatest ever. But for one or more reasons I don't think they were as good as MJ.

In my opinion, Wilt was the best to have played the game in the history of the NBA. My top five would be Wilt, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Jerry West, and Kareem in no particular order - but Wilt would be one.

What players would you rate ahead of MJ?

I just said that. Rounding out my top ten would be MJ, Dr. J, Hakeem, Bob Cousy, and I'm not sure about the tenth spot; maybe Gervin or Rick Barry. People will disagree with me, but it's my opinion...the top five is a fairly common list, though.

What other side? You mean the "fans" voting in Carter?

No, our arguments...you know, about how if Jordan should start Malone, Robinson, and Stockton should start...Carter was pressured unfairly, the game shouldn't have been used as a tribute b/c it was never done like that before, and Jordan's already had two tributes, and so on...you're just focusing around one figment of the argument: Jordan deserving to start over Carter because of what he's done in the past as opposed to his play this season, which is what the All-Star game is about. If they want to do a tribute, do it when the season's over. At least then it's not taking anything away from other players or fans who voted for a player - who won- who doesn't start because of the popularity of another...

It wasn't only because of Jordans popularity, it was because it was his last All Star game. If this wasn't his last year, Carter wouldn't have stepped aside and he wouldn't have had a reason to.

I read somewhere that Thomas wouldn't let anyone leave the locker room until someone gave up their spot and that nearly everyone was pressuring Carter to do so. Carter gave up his spot because of peer pressure and media pressure, not because he had a legitimate reason.

You're right, if this wasn't Jordan's last year, he wouldn't be on the All-Star team. But he was, and this is other great player's last seasons, yet they weren't even in discussions to be on the All-Star team. See the hypocrisy? I hopoe so...if you don't, you're blind.

How am I ignoring the past. This thread has nothing to do with the past. This is about this years All Star game.

This has everything to do with the past; you're basing Jordan's right to force Carter out of the starting lineup on what he's done on the past. You're basing everything on the fact that this is "the greatest player ever" last game and he deserves a tribute mid-season before the season is over. They'll have one at the end of the season, too, I garuntee it...but Jordan sells, so the NBA wanted a Jordan All-Star season - even though the fans voted for Carter and wanted to see someone other than Jordan. People have to let go of the past sometime...it'd be nice if they did it soon.

Oh yeah, Kobe and Tracy only need a couple more 30+ point games to be averaging over 30 ppg...who said they couldn't this season? Oh yeah, everyone who calls me a 'hater' for being realistic....

Shane, just out of interest, wouldn't you put Magic or Bird in your top 10?

That would be the problem for you to try to put anyone in the top 5 or 10, you would like to compress them all to make it fit but for sure there's no room for MJ in the first 10, lol. If we take by positions, I would put MJ in the first 5, I agree, but when there are centers, power forwards and point guards like Big O, Magic, Cousy, etc. I wouldn't think about any 10 but 100. Oh, I just forgot the NBA Logo is just honoring Jerry West, should the NBA honor MJ and change that logo with the Air Jordan logo?

and Jordan starting this last All-Star game wasn't logical.

Why not?

In my opinion, Wilt was the best to have played the game in the history of the NBA.

I think you would have a different opinion if Wilt was playing against the likes of Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo etc. He wouldn't have dominated the way he did with a few more 7 footers around. He had life easy.

the top five is a fairly common list, though.

I don't know a whole lot of people who wouldn't put MJ in their top 5 list.

who said they couldn't this season?

When did I say that?

He wouldn't have dominated the way he did with a few more 7 footers around. He had life easy.

Maybe you are right, maybe he wouldn't have dominated the way he did but not because of that. Why, because with that statement you are saying Ming has his life easy, since there are not so many 7'5"+ guys in the league, he will score 100, or average 50. Very good Clinton, you can wait for him to score 100 points in a game, I know I will not wait for Yao to scrore 100, but you still believe this is a joke, maybe robinson who scored 71 few years ago can tell you, Wilt would have done it anytime. Or maybe not, maybe robinson did it because there were no 7 footers around in the league. right?.

Why not?

Um...he wasn't voted as a starter...duh...

I think you would have a different opinion if Wilt was playing against the likes of Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Mutumbo etc. He wouldn't have dominated the way he did with a few more 7 footers around. He had life easy.

Yeah, he played against 6'5 white guys who sucked. He didn't play against any of the top 50 players at center...Wilt would have dominated like Shaq is dominating - except he'd do it with athleticism as opposed to brute strength.

I don't know a whole lot of people who wouldn't put MJ in their top 5 list.

*shrug* It's all objective...an opinion...just because a lot of people put MJ in their top five doesn't mean they're right and I'm wrong...they just have a different opinion. No one ever understands that and calls us haters for not saying MJ is God...

Why, because with that statement you are saying Ming has his life easy, since there are not so many 7'5"+ guys in the league, he will score 100, or average 50.

No I'm not and no he won't. Ming hasn't got half the athleticsm, basketball instincts or skill of Wilt. He will never be the player Wilt was.

maybe robinson who scored 71 few years ago can tell you, Wilt would have done it anytime.

Did Robinson ever average 50ppg. No. He didn't because he couldn't dominate every night with the defence thrown at him. There are a lot more guys 6'9+ in the league these days than back when Wilt was playing.

Or maybe not, maybe robinson did it because there were no 7 footers around in the league. right?.

It was one game. He didn't dominate in a whole season like Wilt. Why? Because of the abundance of big men. Robinson scored 71 in a game against the LA Clippers. Who was the Clips centre in '94?

Yeah, he played against 6'5 white guys who sucked.

No, he played against 6'8'',6'9'', maybe 6'10'' guys who didn't have half the quickness or athleticism.

Wilt would have dominated like Shaq is dominating - except he'd do it with athleticism as opposed to brute strength.

I agree. If Wilt was in the league today he would be dominating just like Shaq does. He wouldn't be doing the same thing he was doing back in the day.

Who are these great players you speak of that stop Shaq? Brad Miller? Ilgauskas?