the best 20 players of all time

[Sauru]

ok i love larry bird, maybe more than anyone here, but to put him over jordan is just insane. i could deal with him being 2(i honestly think you could flip flop magic or bird for 2 and 3 and it would not matter much) but the top spot goes to jordan. cant base the best of all time on just stats alone, if that was true bird probably would not even be top 10. its all the other things that there is absolutly no stat for that you have to consider. combine those 2 and mix it in with the compitition they played against and thats how i get who i consider best ever. infact i think i actually rated wilt too high on my life and i think i did it mostly based on his scoreing stats but its too late to go back now.

[J-Smoove]

how many times has this thread been resurrected in dif. forms? shit...

[J@3]

Here's mine, it's all opinion but I'm one of those who doesn't think MJ is the greatest ever... nor do I rely purely on Championships...

1: Oscar Robertson
2: Wilt Chamberlain
3: Michael Jordan
4: Bill Russell
5: Magic Johnson
6: Larry Bird
7: Karl Malone (I know it's a bit high, but he's probably the best PF ever)
8: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9: Moses Malone
10: George Mikan (for his time anyways)

I'm not doing another 10.

Ideally I'd have Shaq in front of Mikan, but while basketball was still young-ish he did dominate so I guess I'll give him props for that. I don't think he's a top 10 player though.

[patrixxx73]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Bill Russell
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille O'neal
10. Karl Malone
11. Moses Malone
12. John Stockton
13. Tim Duncan
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Isiah Thomas
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Allen Iverson

[Amphatoast]

jeffx, can u make a top 10 knicks of all time list?

[Indy]

1: Oscar Robertson
2: Wilt Chamberlain
3: Michael Jordan
4: Bill Russell
5: Magic Johnson
6: Larry Bird
7: Karl Malone (I know it's a bit high, but he's probably the best PF ever)
8: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9: Moses Malone
10: George Mikan (for his time anyways)

i disagree with you, but i can respect that list.

alot more then some of the lists that dont put mike at number one.

[Matthew]

Here's mine, it's all opinion but I'm one of those who doesn't think MJ is the greatest ever... nor do I rely purely on Championships...

1: Oscar Robertson
2: Wilt Chamberlain
3: Michael Jordan
4: Bill Russell
5: Magic Johnson
6: Larry Bird
7: Karl Malone (I know it's a bit high, but he's probably the best PF ever)
8: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9: Moses Malone
10: George Mikan (for his time anyways)

I'm not doing another 10.

Ideally I'd have Shaq in front of Mikan, but while basketball was still young-ish he did dominate so I guess I'll give him props for that. I don't think he's a top 10 player though.

Theres no real way you can have Malone over Kareem, or Oscar over Magic. Oscar's career Numbers werent bad: 25 ppg, 9.5 apg, 7.5 rpg (compared to 19.5 ppg, 11.2 apg, 7.2 rpg that magic got). However Oscar's numbers took a significant hit in the playoffs: 22.2 ppg, 8.9 apg and 6.7 rpg, while magics increased: 19.5 ppg, 12.3 apg, 7.7 rebounds per game. The thing that stands out to me the most though was Magics 5 rings, to oscars one. Oscar won with a Kareem in his prime by his side, and only got one ring. Magic was with kareem, but he wasnt in his prime and was able to get 5 rings in a tougher time era. Theres no doubt in my mind that Magic is superior to Oscar.

1. Michael Jordan
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Bill Russell
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Shaquille O'neal
10. Karl Malone
11. Moses Malone
12. John Stockton
13. Tim Duncan
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Julius Erving
17. Isiah Thomas
18. David Robinson
19. Charles Barkley
20. Allen Iverson

This is among the worst lists I've seen. With the exception of Hakeem, the top 10 is a good list, but selectiosn 11-20 is retarted. KG ahead of Jerry West, Dr J, Barkley and David Roibinson? Iverson at 20?

jeffx, can u make a top 10 knicks of all time list?

I'll have a shot at this:
1. Willis Reed
2. Patrick Ewing
3. Walt Frazier
4. Earl Monroe
5. Phil Jackson (just joking, Benard King)


Thats my list for now... I'll do the other selections later.

[Jeffx]

jeffx, can u make a top 10 knicks of all time list?

1) Willis Reed
2) Walt Frazier
3) Dave DeBusschere
4) Earl Monroe
5) Patrick Ewing
6) Bill Bradley
7) Dick Barnett
8) Dick McGuire
9) Bernard King
10) Latrell Sprewell(will always be a Knick to me)

[COOLmac©]

micheal jordan
scottie pippen

thats all. in my generation though.
a couple of old geezers might go with wilt. but i think jordan was better. if jordan was in the 60's hed burn all those retro guys fros with a bombardment of points.
Mj was superb almost godlike compare to other players in the rest of the world when he was at his prime. somewhere in the late 80's to the late 90's

[Jeffx]

1) Julius Erving
2) John Williamson
3) Buck Williams
4) Bernard King
5) Micheal Ray Richardson
6) Otis Birdsong
7) Bill Melchionni
8) Drazen Petrovic
9) Brian Taylor
10) Derrick Coleman

[Jeffx]

....if jordan was in the 60's hed burn all those retro guys fros with a bombardment of points.

Hell no! The rules were a lot different back then. It wasn't as soft as it is now. He wouldn't drive down the lane on those old Celtic/Sixer teams(and not pay for it).

[Matthew]

Judging from the limited games I've actually seen from the 60's, jordan would have been fine. The defense wasnt as tough in terms of physical, on the ball defense, and the game was a much quicker pace. Jordan, 1) was able to produce in big games against hard nosed and tough defenses (New York, Detroit) and 2) Jordan's underatted mid range game was pheonominal and dominated with that as well.

[Damien War]

Jeffx, nice to see a familiar name from the old message board.

25 Best of All-Time

1. Bill Russell - 11 rings, 5 MVP trophies, and Man-handled Wilt on a nightly basis

2. Micheal "Air" Jordan

3. "Big Dipper" Wilt Chamberlain

4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry "Legend" Bird
6. "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West
7. "Big" Shaquille O'Neal
8. "Big O" Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem "The Dream" Olajuwon
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

11. Isiah Thomas
12. Moses Malone
13. Tim Duncan
14. "Dr. J" Julius Erving
15. Willis Reed
16. "The Mailman" Karl Malone
17. George Mikan
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Elgin Baylor
20. Scottie Pippen
21. Kobe Bryant
22. "Sir" Charles Barkley
23. "Ice Man" George Gervin
24. "The Admiral" David Robinson
25. Bob Pettit

[Matthew]

Hakeem ahead of Kareem? Tim Duncan ahead of Malone? KG ahead of Barkley and David Robinson?

[Damien War]

Hakeem ahead of Kareem?

True. I could have definitely put him ahead of Hakeem

Tim Duncan ahead of Malone?

Definitely. Both are two-time MVP's, but Timmy has two rings, and never had the opportunity to team with a point guard the caliber of John Stockton and star David Robinson was on the decline. Plus Tim Duncan got his first ring and Finals MVP trophy in year two of his career compared to Karl's first Finals trip in his twelveth.

KG ahead of Barkley and David Robinson?

It got tough choosing towards the end, but I stand behind my picks. I do consider him better than Barkley but it's tougher putting him over David who somehow slid to 24. David was a better defender and once dropped 71 points (to screw Shaq out of a scoring title), but KG is the most well rounded big man in league history. Both have a MVP trophy. David has rings but he didn't win them until Tim got there and he only avg 12 points during those two seasons.

[Matthew]

The difference between Karl Malone and Tim Duncan to me is longevity. Sure Duncan has 2 rings, but I have no doubts that had Malone not run into the greatest to ever play, he would have 2 rings too. That Utah team was something special, and they pushed Jordan to the limit in 97 and 98.

Just look at these stats though from Malones career:
87-88 (3rd year in the league) 27.7 ppg, 12 rpg
29.1 ppg, 10.7 rpg
31.0 ppg, 11.1 rpg
29.0 ppg, 11.8 rpg
28 ppg, 11.2 rpg
27 ppg, 11.2 rpg
25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg
26.7 ppg, 10.6 rpg
25.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg
27.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg
27 ppg, 10.3 rpg

Then the lockout hit. Those numbers and the consistancy at that level is amazing. To put it into perspective, Duncan's highest season ppg average is 25.5 ppg in 2001-2002. If kg is ahead of David Robinson in your list, despite Robinson's rings, the Malone should be higher than Duncan.

[Fresh8]

1. Michael Jordan (Its just that hes mj)
2. Bill Russell
3. Wilt Chamberlain (The stats... man!)
4. Magic Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Oscar Robertson
7. Jerry West
8. Shaquille O'neal
9. Julis Erving
10. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
11. Karl Malone
12. Isiah Thomas
13. Hakeem Olajuwan
14. Moses Malone
15. Elgin Baylor
16. David Robinson
17. John Stockton
18. Geroge Mikan
19. Scottie Pippen
20. Tim Duncan

[Keo]

Now you cant get mad at me here because this is an arguement just between Kings
You have C-Webb before Oscar Robinson?
Brad Miller over Christie?
Archibald before Oscar?

Ya man that's all right. We're discussing as Kings fans and I think u're right I should've put Oscar higher.
Thanks for your opinion...

[Null17]

^ wasn't there a guy that said vlade divac should be mvp or something??

[J@3]

I think he said Vlade should be in the hall of fame.

[Null17]

oh yeah. lol

[.]

Vlade should and will be in the Hall of Fame in the future.

[Jeffx]

1) Julius Erving
2) John Williamson
3) Buck Williams
4) Jason Kidd
5) Bernard King
6) Micheal Ray Richardson
7) Otis Birdsong
8) Bill Melchionni
9) Drazen Petrovic
10) Brian Taylor

[Damien War]

The difference between Karl Malone and Tim Duncan to me is longevity. Sure Duncan has 2 rings, but I have no doubts that had Malone not run into the greatest to ever play, he would have 2 rings too. That Utah team was something special, and they pushed Jordan to the limit in 97 and 98.

Just look at these stats though from Malones career:
87-88 (3rd year in the league) 27.7 ppg, 12 rpg
29.1 ppg, 10.7 rpg
31.0 ppg, 11.1 rpg
29.0 ppg, 11.8 rpg
28 ppg, 11.2 rpg
27 ppg, 11.2 rpg
25.2 ppg, 11.5 rpg
26.7 ppg, 10.6 rpg
25.7 ppg, 9.8 rpg
27.4 ppg, 9.9 rpg
27 ppg, 10.3 rpg

Then the lockout hit. Those numbers and the consistancy at that level is amazing. To put it into perspective, Duncan's highest season ppg average is 25.5 ppg in 2001-2002. If kg is ahead of David Robinson in your list, despite Robinson's rings, the Malone should be higher than Duncan.

You're right about the stat comparison, but it's not all about how many points you score. Tim Duncan averages lesser points but it's not like he couldn't average more, because when he's trying to score you might as well not guard him. Tim keeps his teammates involved. But more importantly unlike Karl, Tim scores points when they count. Karl has a long history of struggling in high pressure games. And you're right that Jazz team was something special, and the '98 one was the one team that had no business losing to the Bulls, but you-know-who never showed up.

[Matthew]

Tim has had a history of disappearing in crunch time also... Karl did deliver big performances against the bulls, its just that everyone on his team struggled alot. Stockton struggled, Hornicek, Russell, Eisley, Foster.. they were all shell's of their regular selves in those series against chicago.

1997 series against the bulls:
23.8 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.5 apg

In the 1998 series Malone was nearly as unstopable as Jordan. In the final two games he combined 70 points, including a 39 point performance in chicago in game 5. Malone did take and make most of his big shots. It's just that his team ran into the best ever, and I cant fault him for that.