Time strain on the legends

[Chris_23]

I never saw Larry play real time. Never saw Kareem, Russell, Magic, Reed, Frazier, Havlicek, Chamberlain, Bird, Robertson...

Nowadays people talk about Kobe, talk about Shaq and other stars. Talk about LeBron as the next great player to belong the side of Magic, Bird and Jordan, and others.

And, I expect flaming in this thread by the fans of younger generation, so Im hoping for replies by the people who have seen the times before and have knowledge of NBA basketball.

But for some reason, what is easily forgotten, are the actual gameplay that has to be seen before such comparisons. People forget, younger generation takes over who perhaps hasnt even seen Jordan play during his championships. Younger generation that sees the greats nowadays and only hears the echo of what has gone before.

Players arent measured by their statistics. Well, yes they are but actually they really should not be. The great players come through their actions, their leadership, willpower and hard as rock desire to achieve their goals, their dreams.

I started this thread (knowing that this is a forum where long threads are not in "popularity") because I recently came across tapes that were sent to me by a friend in England who had tapes of some of the amazing games of the past. Even the tape of Bill Russels last championship final. Theres also Magics final, and couple of regular season Lakers games (his father was a Lakers fan), and another final game against Bird and co. I also got some mixed tapes on Jordans earlier perfomances and such.

They were an awesome thing to watch. Quality was crazy, tape kept cutting to mess at some point (they were some older copies) but nevertheless I saw these few games.

And it made me think about what has gone before in the league. How time changes because the generation changes. But if anyone really wants to compare the stars of nowadays to the stars that came before, they need to see these players, legends of the past, play. They need to see what they did, and then ask themselves if they see nowadays prospects through the same spyglass or not.

Bill Russel was perhaps the strongest leader in the history of the league, his willpower compared perhaps only to Michael Jordans and Larry Birds. Wilt Chamberlain and Kareem Abdul-Jabar posted great numbers, but I consider Bill Russell as the most intelligent centre in the history of the league. In a mediocre team, aging Bill Russell had managed to inspire his team through such a mess and win against a stronger opposition. Stronger in abilities, yet weaker in mental will, and Russell led his team to victory.

And Magic Johnson, who is in my opinion the most complete player in his rookie year. No matter that Larry Bird held the rookie of the year award, I consider Magic as the genius of basketball. in finals, playing a centre position, scoring past 40 points... You wont, you dont expect any rookie from past ten years stepping up like that. Its not to say that there isnt talent among the rookies of nowadays, there is, just look at LeBron, but a player coming into the league in the most complete package of skills is so rare to find. It was rare back then as well, and the only rookie Ive considered, and am still considering now with the "complete package" tag, is Kobe who came into league with the same intelligence as did the great players before him.

It was Kobes career advancement that perhaps shadowed his advancement. THere have been so many strong players in the history of the NBA who have been shot down because of some injury, career move or other event. From modern days, Grant Hill and Kobe Bryant are perhaps the hardest things. Yes Kobe won the title, and not just one, but his greatest years were ahead of him, but the mess in media, Shaq, Malone and the entire crap about this rape would have been hard on any of these legends I mentioned before.

Perhaps some of you have noticed, but the stats in basketballreference site have this hall of fame rating. The highest modern player through their career advancement in that rating is Tim Duncan. Eleventh. All time eleventh.

Then you have the case of basketball genius Larry Bird who had the best understanding of the basketball of his time. For a player who didnt have much speed, he did his work through ball movement, and absolutely stunning shooting.

Id also mention Walt Frazier and Willis Reed in their NY times, Julius Erving, and of course Isiah Thomas who had to climb through razor sharp rocks to win his title.

There are others of course, players who become the legend not because of their statistics, but who become legends because of their actions. Their leadership. I wont ever get tired of saying this, leadership. Strong love for the game and willpower for the title. Something that is perhaps overshadowed by media, too many analyziz like the one Im writing.

You also have Michael Jordan, Karl Malone, Barkley, Drexler, the great three centres of their time Robinson/Ewing/Olajuwon...

And for the last note of this thread, you do need to see Jordans career high game, or absolutely every perfomance in NBA Finals. Also, Id mention the perfomance of the 39 year old Wizard against Charlotte, with 51 points.

Only then, having seen the legends of the past trying to see into the future, you can really compare the players of modern days, and ask yourself if the man you see on the court today, could measure up to those who have gone before.

Im still waiting for that player.

[air gordon]

good stuff

i agree with a lot of your points

[Andrew]

Nicely said. A lot of the great players pre-80s aren't given their due, and even some of the more recent greats are a little underrated these days. With all due respect to the great players of today whom I do enjoy watching, most of them aren't at a point where they can truly be considered to have accomplished as much as some of the players they are being compared to; a couple of years at a very high level isn't the same as more than a decade of excellence.

[Chris_23]

However I did forget to mention that Shaq actually should be considered as the great of modern days. Coming in in mid 90s up until mid 2000s he has been the most dominant centre in the league.

If Shaq manages to write his name in the championship list with Miami, he has, in fact, become the first legend of modern days. He does need more than the rings from Lakers to prove his worth, because as player dominance in the league is forgotten, the rings and titles never shall be, and at the times the NBA is in right now there is no player to lead in scoring for a decade, or in other areas, showing the inbalance that has occured after the downtimes of the league where the league popularity was at an all-time low.

Nevertheless, Shaq with his decade, along with Tim Duncan (couple of years still for him to get his decade) are the two players who can be considered in the future to set alongside with Robinson and Ewing and Olajuwon, Russell, Kareem and the rest.

Im sure the next few years will show us quite a few things, but its drama and emotions that really spice things up. We saw it with Russell, we've seen it with Isiah, and Jordan. Or great matchups Russell against Wilt (Russel was also player-coach), Bird to Magic, Magic/Drexler/Barkley/Malone to Jordan, things that can make a player into a legend. For a long time just posting big numbers has not made anyone a legend. Remember that Michael was not considered as the best player of all time up until he brought Bulls to the championships. People talked about his talent, potential, but along with the load of critics...

If we'd see Kobe vs Shaq in the finals, it would be definetly the hottest finals matchup since Bulls beat Jazz in the 97/98. And a game such as this, can give birth to legends.

[Matthew]

I dont think shaq or duncan need to win anymore rings to be in the same class as patrick ewing. Shaq had a period of 3 years where he was so dominant, that no team could slow him down. Forget individual players guarding him, no team could do it. In other words, theres no way you can put ewing alongside Kareem, Russel, Shaq, Wilt or Hakeem.

And that's comming from a Ewing fan.

He just wasn't that good, and all the players you mentioned, the jordans, the magics, the bird's, the russell's, they were tremendous overachievers. They pushed their talents to places we never knew existed. Think about Jordan's last title run with the bulls, he was 35 and chewing everybody up still. And thats at 35! People before the season were raving about shaq's age, 33, and how he will be limited becuase of that. That is one of the reasons jordan was and still is the greatest to play.

However, there is only a few that deserve to be mentioned with him. Magic has to be one, just thinking back to how he led the lakers as a rookie, starting at centre, then to the baby skyhook. He isnt on jordans level, becuase mike took that from him in 91, but he is up there. Bird is another, and shaq is knocking on the door. Russell has to be there too, just becuase of how he dominated the matchup with wilt. Wilt is the most overated player in the history of the game. People talk about his stats like they are god-like, and invincible, but he was anything but immortal. Russel finished with 11 rings, wilt 2 (one after russel retired). Winning is almost everything in this game, and wilt was never even close to a dynasty team.

Theres a few players with the chance to be amongst the best:
Lebron, a world of talent and he has suprassed the hype up until this point. But now it's not hype, it's full blown expectations, can he live upto them as well now?

Kobe: The main is maybe the most skilled basketball player alive, but not the smartest. he is trying to lead, and has the desire, but he has to do it. if he wins without shaq, there can be no disputing his greatness.

Garnett: Like Jordan was a better dr j, garnett is an improved pippen in terms of sheer talent. He has to win more, and like kobe, he has to just learn how to be a better leader. he's right there.

Iverson: Oh baby, wait for the flames for this inclusion. Iverson has revolutionsed how we think, just like mike did. Before jordan won, it was said you needed a strong interior precence to win a championship. With iverson, nobody seriously thought that a 6 foot player could carry a team scoring wise to the finals, and thats what he did. He has some disadvantges, his height, his shot selection, his lack of quality teamates, but if he pulls off just one championship, he has to be in the list. Its a big if though.

[Matt]

Magic was the real deal, he'd be great in the L today

also Isaiah Thomas was great too, his dribbling was crazy and he pulled off some impossible moves

[Matthew]

Don't limit isiah to streetball status matt . Isiah had the most heart in nba history imo. him and iverson are very similar, isiah is easily in the top echelon of top pg's.

[MaD_hAND1e]

Think about Jordan's last title run with the bulls, he was 35 and chewing everybody up still. And thats at 35!

Forget 35, Jordan was chewing almost everybody at 41.

[Chris_23]

Id not say almost everybody... Nevertheless he player at 41 the way no other player in the league did. Remember that Kobe is the only player in the league still somewhat succesfully trying Michaels jumpshot (the side-fadeaway that many didnt even try to block). And he learned that after Michael who burned him with it more than once during late 90s.

Nevertheless Id not name Kobe as the most skilled player alive, in physical powers perhaps but he is mentally struck as a basketball player and to come out of it requires alot of leadership and a title without Shaq.

Iverson also needs to prove himself with the stronger leadership. Remember that he reached the finals during the period where he shot throughout the game. He is alot more complete player today, but he needs to go far to mark his name in the history.

As for Shaq,I do think he needs a title without Lakers to be among the legends of history. Three years of domination is a small time compared with the decade of those legends. He is the most dominant player in the history perhaps because of his flexibility and power, but remember that time can underrate players who did not rule for longer period than that.

And the chance to become the legends list should include Tim Duncan. Boring to watch for many perhaps but he was one of the few capable of handling Shaq, and is great all around player. Duncan is also higher, far higher than Shaq in basketball-reference hall of famer lists that consider all time stats and titles won.

Garnett of course, but again a title is needed perhaps.

Time underrates those without titles. How well do we remember the stars of 70s.80s even. With each decade we forget more and more. Tim Hardaway, Glen Rice, Penny, even Grant Hill had he not played this year. We forget the stars, and Garnett and Iverson would be forgotten the same way in ten years if they dont win.

[Jowe]

Real nba fans don't forget the stars. Its only that most of the 'fans' are bandwagoners, that hop from one team to another just following the next young star.


I remember vividly how Glen Rice used to shoot out the lights, Tim hardaway when he still had his original knees. Larry Johnson when he could dunk, Isiah and magic at the backend of their careers.
MJ in his from in teh early 90's was gang$ta. Larry bird single handedly creating interest in white players.

Heck remember Keith Van Horns rookie season? Where he was being touted as the next larry bird.


If KG and marbs would have stayed in together, i think Garnett would be regarded as the best in the game without a doubt.

[The X]

yeah, I've been following bball from about 93/94 season....seen a few old-school games but not too many....

Boston v Atlanta, Bird v Nique.....now that was one helluva shootout....
Boston v Detroit....Bird steals pass and passes it to DJ....
New York v Lakers....Willis Reed comes back from injury for Game 7....not really a great game, Knicks blew them out, I think it's just hyped up cos Reed limped out....

most old-school stuff that I've seen is from highlights....players who really stood out for me were first and foremost Bill Russell, then you've got Wilt, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Walton before injuries and a whole bunch others who weren't quite in the same league winning wise....

in last decade or so I have enjoyed watching top players in there primes or twilights of their careers like MJ, Pippen, Olajuwon, Admiral, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Mitch Richmond, etc....also players like Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, Iverson, Tim Duncan, etc come through and a new breed of players like Garnett, Kobe, Stoudemire, etc.....

I've no doubt forgotten many, but I've seen some very nice players....pity I haven't seen more old school games....

but I will end on the player who has left the biggest impression on me....

"Pistol" Pete Maravach
he was a true artist on the court and a magician with the rock....
RIP

[Shakes]

It doesn't matter what we're talking about, any sport, any human endevour really, more recent events are always going to be most vivid in our minds and those past stars are mostly going to fade away, leaving only the special few who are remembered after they're gone.

Of course those few we remember are so good everyone wants to see someone just like them, hence the "next Jordan", "next Bird" or "next Magic" tag that gets thrown about t any up and coming player.

I think most people like a showman, but to me, it's the workmanlike performers that catch my eye. People can complain about how boring Tim Duncan is all they like, he gets the job done with ruthless efficiency. Another player who was like that who I think is under-rated is John Stockton. Just like people take for granted that Duncan will get his 20 points and 10 rebounds, people seemed to take it for granted that Stockton would get 10 assists and hit a few crucial threes. He wasn't a flashy player, but he got the job done year after year, even into his 40s he was still one of the top point guards in the league.

For all the great Jordan performances, scoring 35 points vs Utah when he was sick enough that most people wouldn't have gotten out of bed to go to an office job far and away impressed me most. It's one thing to dazzle the crowd and the opposition, it's another to bring yourself up to another level through strength of will and get the job done when you're not at the peak of fitness. I guess the stats don't tell the story there, you'd say 35 points is only a slightly above average game for Jordon is you just looked at the scorecard, and maybe in the future that's what people will look back on and wonder what all the fuss was about.

It always annoys me when someone new comes onto the scene in whatever sport and they've played a couple of games and shown a bit of flair and suddenly the media is acting like they're the second coming. A player who makes the very most of what they've been given year after year is a star, naturally more gifted athletes who play a couple of seasons then burn out are a dime a dozen.

I also hate this obsession with players not being great unless they win championships. It's not your fault if you're in a bad team, and personally I respect a player who's willing to tough it out on a bad team and make the most of it, even if that doesn't mean going all the way, than having a sulk and demanding to go elsewhere. I can't seriously believe that had Utah beaten Chicago that it would make Malone or Stockton any greater than they already are. That's just crazy talk, what ever happened to it not being about whether they win or lose, it's how they play the game?

[Matt]

Mitch Richmond!!!!

[J@3]

I think someone who gets horribly forgotten is Oscar Robertson. I never saw him play, but the guys statistics are unbelievable... go to BasketballReference.com and have a look, everyone knows about the 1 season he averaged a triple double but he almost did it like 6 times... add to that he was regularly getting 30ppg aswell, it's crazy.

[Jowe]

Greatest player of all time. Period.

[The X]

I was gonna add the Big O but the fact I've never really seen any footage of him led me to not mention him....

yip Shakes, I'm a huge Stockton fan....I loved watching your precision passes and especially those daggers....truth be told if I could have any player with ball in waning minutes, it'd have to be John Stockton....he can do it with the dagger runner or pull-up 3, the pass, the steal, the illegal and wily off-the-ball moves, and so on....

you can't help but like the Stockton's, Hinrich's and Travis Deiner's of the world....

I wouldn't have minded seeing Mark Price and Brad Daugherty play in their prime together....or Ron Harper before he blew his knee out....

[Chris_23]

Fabulous replies, and ditto of what Matt said. Mitch Richmond, a definit star that most have forgotten, proving my point that players who havent reached great titles will be sadly, undeservingly forgotten.

There are many like him. Also this Ewing who was ditched by someone else before, a great player. I must actually say I loved the period of centres in the league at that time when Mutombo/Ewing/Olajuwon/Robinson/O'Neal played the game. Nowadays you have just a couple of good centres in the league really worth mentioning.

Besides Grant Hill 90s, even Payton-Kemp who seem to be forgotten, Stockton-Malone which was the most dominant duo in the decade, Richmond, Rice...

Jowe brought a perfect example in the form of Keith van Horn who was overrated through NBA Live series for many years, and so in real life as well. What is he now?

Its actually stupid that people forget. I feel sorry for Stockton and Malone mostly, as I fear they wont be remembered by many in ten years. Duo which deserved the title perhaps the most but never got it. Just like Charles Barkley.

What an era it was when Bird, Magic and Jordan all played together...

ALso what about Clyde the Glide. Winning the title, he too is somehow forgotten. People remember better Jordan burning Clyde in 92 Finals (game one especially) than how good player he really was. The man was the most similar to Jordan this league has ever seen, just missing bits in every area here and there. But he won the title at least.

Come on, even Tom Chambers is forgotten. Tom who? Tim Duncan will be forgotten the same way if there shall be no real flair or back to back titles.

I bet most of you will become nostalgic even when hearing the name of... Sean Elliot... I mean really, he was a great player up until his injuries.

There are so many others... But the plague of the next-Bird/Jordan/Magic is truly the thing that it is, a plague. Damon Stoudamire was supposed to become the next Isiah Thomas, Iverson/Carter/Kobe were supposed to become the next Jordans, Van Horn the next Bird. None of this has happened, perhaps because of the strain in media, or the things that happen in overexposed life that manage to mess things up.

But nevertheless its sad, to become a legend you need not only to be a great athlete, you need titles, and you need the personality and leadership. None, I repeat NONE of the people who are considered a legend were weak leaders. Russel was a playing coach, same as Jordan who was kinda assistant coach through the entire 90s. Magic was a great leader with a great smile (that was mentioned in one of the NBA videos ) and charisma. If anyone has seen that video, then he knows that after his first game that Lakers won, Magic jumped on Kareem as if they had won the championship. And he did that more or less for the rest of his career, being happy over every small thing worthy of a smile.

The future will sadly tell stories only of the winners, and none of the great losers. Its currently so nowadays, it will be so in ten years, twenty, fifty. Winning is the realization of legend status in the modern days. You need to win, its as simple as that, since winning is bringing your own skills into the level of success within the team. Michael was critiqued that he will never bring the Bulls for the title. He did.

And if anyone remembers the joy Michael felt during his first title, or the title he won after his fathers death, knows the emotional strain on such players. It was so on not just Michael.

Now tell me where was the dramatic joy in the faces of Spurs after winning Knicks? Or any year afterwards, it was as if the flare was missing. The flare that creates the legends. Absolute love of the game, giving the best of himself doing something everybody doubts you are doing. Are you seeing the smiles of the champions today, that you saw in the faces of Bulls in 98? Or even more so on the faces of teamwork-Celtics? Russell? Yes I know the league was in downtime after the Bulls flare had worn out and Jazz still didnt manage to win. The political situation that played a role on 98/99 and the years of 2000 01 02 and so were all at an all time low. Perhaps it plays a big role to win a title in the environment of nowadays, compared with the environment in 90s and before. A celebration not just among the players and fans, but also among the regular people who cant tell the difference from clippers and lakers up until they see people in street during the playoff period.

Its a harsh truth perhaps, but a true one nevertheless. Its never really a possibility to rate players based on their stats of physical skills. Michael Jordan was not the best dunker in the history, his hangtime however was perhaps the best. Does it matter? Dont think so. Players value, legend status even perhaps, should be considered in the emotional level rather than statistical. You shall always value a player more who has brought happiness for you with his ten clutch time baskets, than of the player who just pulled sixty against the raptors. If there are more people feeling the same way, then the legend will become of the player who gives more joy to the people, than the player who posts big numbers.

This is an interesting discussion though, and I love the professional participants by people who know what they are talking about, its a joy reading.

[The X]

salary cap and lack of loyalty from both teams and players have led to teams not having continuity and therefore the lack of dynasties....teams that stay together and players who stay with their original teams will usually be thought of higher....

I think I mentioned Mitch Richmond in mine, he was a real nice player, but the fact he took a lesser role to win a title with Lakers doesn't even factor into my thoughts of him as a player....I think of Richmond as part of Rum TMC and especially with leading the Kings to the 1st Round of the playoffs....I feel like Mitch Richmond changed people's perception of Sacramento....damn I loved that Kings team with Mitch Richmond, Brian Grant, Michael Smith, Tyus Edney....superb....

just like that Nuggets team with Mutombo, Reggie Williams, LaPhonso Ellis, Chris Jackson (Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf), Bryant Stith and especially Robert Pack....the Sonics still have scars from that 1st Round defeat....then they pushed Jazz to the brink....

then there's my Showtime Lakers....Cedric Ceballos (my fav player), Nick Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Vlade Divac, Elden Campbell, Anthony Peeler, Sedale Threatt, etc....gotta love it....never liked the Lakers after they traded Vlade for Kobe, Ced for Horry, Nick The Quick, Eddie, etc....

damn, now I've gone all nostalgic....I think the true bball "lifers" will never forget the stars of yesteryear....

[Matt]

i don't think Duncan will be forgotten, i mean he's already achieved 2 titles and is the most consistent player in the NBA playing on the most consistent team. That speaks volumes.

[.]

No way Tim Duncan will be forgotten.

Next to Karl Malone he is the greatest Power Forward of all time Imo, Karl just has the edge because of his long career and Tim still has some years in him left. But I can see him surpass Malone in the future to get the Greatest PF of all time honor.

He lead his team to a NBA championship in just his second year in the league, back to back MVP awards, 2 NBA Championships along with 2 Finals MVP awards.

It would be a damn shame if people would forget him.

[The X]

I think Karl Malone can thank John Stockton for his legacy and vice-versa....

everyone in bball and even people who don't know much about it have heard the saying "Stockton-to-Malone"....both were on Original Dream Team....

personally I think Duncan is the better player by the end of his career barely....I think Duncan's cool demeanour works against him being remember as the best....another championship for Duncan without the Admiral will secure his place as one of the best....

but either way....let's head back to the 70s....I'll roll a few off the tongue
Earl "The Pearl" Monroe, Walt Frazier, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Bill Walton (in his prime), Bob Lanier, Artis Gilmore, Elvis Hayes, "Pistol" Pete Maravich....

EDIT: It's the playoff where legends are made....win or lose....that's why Dirk ain't a legend, and won't be unless he starts ripping it up in playoffs....think Reggie Miller against the Knicks....I remember the players who tried to stick with Jordan in the playoffs like Starks, Dumars, Bryon Russell and Ehlo

[air gordon]

good posts by everyone

you could be a great player and not win a championship but you can't be considered one of the greatest if you have yet gotten to highest level and won. i'm not talking about dennis hopson here.

take away the money & media attention, the peripheral stuff, etc... they play the game to win. simple as that.

[Indy]

people who have been forgotten (or at least somewhat forgotten) from the 90s already but shouldnt have been

cedric ceballos
chris mullin
dan majrle (Sp?)
kevin johnson
shawn kemp (he was great before he got fat)
dale davis (im biased)

theres more i just cant think of them right now

[.]

No way in hell I will forget about my boy Cedric Ceballos

[Indy]

No way in hell I will forget about my boy Cedric Ceballos

yea hell yeah

but you bring up his name and people are like WHO?


one more guy

manute bol!

my man