Michael Jordan

[TheBob]

Wow we've now got this to 200 posts...

[Wall St. Peon]

Please!
Look at these replys of yours carefully.
oh............
I see.... you quoted Big Answer's words; however, these replys were for champs irrellevant points.
Well... who is out of context......??

*shrug* Whatever, I got the name wrong, no one's perfect. I wasn't quoting out of context, I was misquoting; there's a big difference. You were replying to my post while ignoring all previous posts that led up to my responses - and all the things you quoted were my responses to irrellevant points made by Big Answer, therefore your replies, ignoring the context of them, were out of context. I just said the wrong person, but the comment was clearly in context.

[champ]

Enahs Live, from now on, I am not reading your posts. Yes, your picture is off-putting, but your posts directed at Michael Jordan indicate that you are not worth taking serious. Your views are either very uneducated (did you follow the NBA during Michael Jordan's entire career?) or they are disguising a deep hatred for Michael Jordan (very common and understandable). Either way, i see no reason to waste my time reading or replying to your posts. I am here to have a serious and mature discussion about NBA basketball, and this discussion will not include you from now on. So once again, your previous post is the last post written by yourself that i will ever read

[Cudacke]

*shrug* Whatever, I got the name wrong, no one's perfect. I wasn't quoting out of context, I was misquoting; there's a big difference. You were replying to my post while ignoring all previous posts that led up to my responses - and all the things you quoted were my responses to irrellevant points made by Big Answer, therefore your replies, ignoring the context of them, were out of context. I just said the wrong person, but the comment was clearly in context.

yea yea.
Let's just check out waht did Big Answer said with your so called in context replys and my "out of context" replys.

Can these two guys score more than 30 points avg. on a whole season ???

Yeah, I'd say so. McGrady's close at 29.8...Bryant could, quite easily, I think...he's at 27.7, and that's with Shaq for almost half the games...so yeah, I can safely say they could average 30 points or more on a season. McGrady probably will. Iverson's done it a couple times, and I don't think he's as good as Jordan.

He asked can there two guys average more than 30 point in a season.
Your answer is "yes" because they have been close; therefore, they can.
Well, they have never done it so in fact they cannot and until they actually do it, there is only possibility that the may do it one day.
There is no real poof shows they can.
Just like you said in other posts. Jordan can't average trible double for a season because he have never done it.
Who is out of context ?

And make their team better...I doubt it......

Kobe Bryant has a gob of triple doubles...if his team had played better, they would have been next to perfect without Shaq. McGrady is solid every game, and he does make his players better. He has great vision and his passes are consistant.

He said he doubt these two play can average more than 30 and make their team better.
You replied back with no proof and said they can.
I replied you with real proof of Jordan's past season showed that he have done that when he was not even the best he could be yet!
Where was the proof of that "next to perfect without Shaq" thing?
The begining of this season? or you dreamed that one night?

The fact is neither Kobe nor TMAC have averaged 30 in a single season.
There is no proof that "they can average 30 in a season AND make their team better. Please at least read Big Answer's meaning as a whole idea than two sentences before you try to reply in context.
Who is out of context ?

Remember NBA finals 93...40 pts or more in 4/6 games, all 6 above 30 !!!

Who was guarding him, what percentage did he shoot, how many shots did he take, and how many points did the next highest scorer on the Bulls have? Also, how many points did the man he was guarding have? Jordan wasn't known for his defense his first few years in the league...

This one Big Answer showed real facts of what Jordan have done in a championship series.
You replied with who is the second highest scorer in Bulls?, who was guarding him?, and Jordan's low def. ability in his first few years.
I replied you what you ask.
It doesn't matter who is guarding Jordan.
I show you how good Jordan was as a defender in his fourth season.
Again, who is out of context ?

Why does it matter who is the second highest scorer in the Bulls ?
The fact is Jordan averaged more than 40 in that series.
Why does Jordan's first few year def. ability have any thing to do with a not early years Jordan's stats ?
What the context ?


Well, my english is not good at all and I have never get a better score than 3.5 in any English classes that's higher level than ESL. Therefore, please define the phase "out of context" for me! The future English teacher!

[Wall St. Peon]

Enahs Live, from now on, I am not reading your posts.

You've been reading them to begin with? You've ignored everything I've said and picked out the 'Jordan hating' comments.

Yes, your picture is off-putting, but your posts directed at Michael Jordan indicate that you are not worth taking serious.

Because they're different? Because they see beyond pop culture icons? Because they look to the past? Because they're logical?

Your views are either very uneducated (did you follow the NBA during Michael Jordan's entire career?)

Yes, I did, and I've acknowledged his accomplishments. However, you choose to ignore the actual discussion and post stats of how great Jordan was and don't even begin to delve into the simple logic that there WILL be someone better at the game of basketball, more popular, and with more rings than Jordan.

or they are disguising a deep hatred for Michael Jordan (very common and understandable).

OK, because I say there will be someone better than Jordan, I hate him? That's logical when I'm a North Carolina fan and was a member of the Bulls bandwagon because I didn't know any better...

Either way, i see no reason to waste my time reading or replying to your posts. I am here to have a serious and mature discussion about NBA basketball, and this discussion will not include you from now on.

Serious and mature??? You?! haha, you're illogical and can't see beyond your own opinions. That's incredibly immature, not mature. If anyone posts anything against Jordan, that means that they are ignorant and immature? Oh, and I hate to tell you this, but I am a part of this discussion. You know, since I was the one who started this branch of the Michael Jordan post...but I guess I'm not a part in whatever strange world you're living in...

So once again, your previous post is the last post written by yourself that i will ever read

Right, I'll believe that one.

yea yea.
Let's just check out waht did Big Answer said with your so called in context replys and my "out of context" replys.

OK, let's look and see how stupid you were for making this post...

Enahs Live wrote:
Quote:
Can these two guys score more than 30 points avg. on a whole season ???


Yeah, I'd say so. McGrady's close at 29.8...Bryant could, quite easily, I think...he's at 27.7, and that's with Shaq for almost half the games...so yeah, I can safely say they could average 30 points or more on a season. McGrady probably will. Iverson's done it a couple times, and I don't think he's as good as Jordan.



He asked can there two guys average more than 30 point in a season.
Your answer is "yes" because they have been close; therefore, they can.
Well, they have never done it so in fact they cannot and until they actually do it, there is only possibility that the may do it one day.
There is no real poof shows they can.
Just like you said in other posts. Jordan can't average trible double for a season because he have never done it.
Who is out of context ?

He asked if they could, he was asking for my opinion, which I gave. I think they can. I never said they did, and I never stated it as a fact. Champ said Jordan 'can,' and in this context meaning it's a definate thing; why? Because Jordan has limited time to do so, and it's impossible. Jordan averaging a triple double is impossible because this is his last season (supposedly), and, since he hasn't averaged a triple double for the first half of the season, it's an impossibility. That would be LOGIC...

McGrady and Kobe are barely under 30 points a game, they have many years (barring injury) left in the league, and it's very possible that they COULD (as in, maybe) average over 30 points per game. Am I out of context? No. Are you daft? Do you know what 'in context' means? I answered his question, therefore it was in context.

Enahs Live wrote:

Quote:
And make their team better...I doubt it......

Kobe Bryant has a gob of triple doubles...if his team had played better, they would have been next to perfect without Shaq. McGrady is solid every game, and he does make his players better. He has great vision and his passes are consistant.

He said he doubt these two play can average more than 30 and make their team better.
You replied back with no proof and said they can.
I replied you with real proof of Jordan's past season showed that he have done that when he was not even the best he could be yet!
Where was the proof of that "next to perfect without Shaq" thing?
The begining of this season? or you dreamed that one night?

He said he doubts they can, I said they could. My opinion, it is a discussion, opinions tend to be 'spoken,' and I did back up my statement with why I thought they could. Proof? How do I prove my opinion to an imbecile who has no respect for other people's views? It's impossible. I backed up my opinion with reason, and you're ignoring that. This is debate, not a stat room. If I want stats, I'll go to a stat page.

If you knew how to read, the "next to perfect without Shaq" was in reference to the beginning of the season, you know, when Kobe was next to perfect without Shaq...all those triple doubles...30+ point games...but only a few wins because his teammates were cold...which is EXACTLY what I said. Oh, didn't Jordan do that the first year or two of his career? Lots of points, good games, not many wins? I'm saying this to show that it took Jordan a while to win....

The fact is neither Kobe nor TMAC have averaged 30 in a single season.

Please tell me where I said they had averaged 30 points per game in a season? I know I didn't...so what's the point of this comment? To make yourself look inept at debate?

There is no proof that "they can average 30 in a season AND make their team better. Please at least read Big Answer's meaning as a whole idea than two sentences before you try to reply in context.
Who is out of context ?

I read it. Where's his statements backing up his opinion that Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady do not make their teams better and why he thinks they will not be able to score 30 points or more in the future? FUTURE. Key word here, which is implied with the word 'could.' I gave my reasons as to why McGrady makes his team better, and I gave my reasons for Kobe as well. Where's his reasons for why they aren't? And again, I'm very much in context...he asked a question, I answered it with my opinions and the reasons I have that opinion.

Enahs Live wrote:

Quote:
Remember NBA finals 93...40 pts or more in 4/6 games, all 6 above 30 !!!

Who was guarding him, what percentage did he shoot, how many shots did he take, and how many points did the next highest scorer on the Bulls have? Also, how many points did the man he was guarding have? Jordan wasn't known for his defense his first few years in the league...

This one Big Answer showed real facts of what Jordan have done in a championship series.
You replied with who is the second highest scorer in Bulls?, who was guarding him?, and Jordan's low def. ability in his first few years.
I replied you what you ask.
It doesn't matter who is guarding Jordan.
I show you how good Jordan was as a defender in his fourth season.
Again, who is out of context ?

Do you want my reasons for the questions? Jordan may have scored 40, but if the next highest scorer scored 5 points it shows that Jordan wasn't making his team better. While I know that example is exagerated, hopefully you understand the reason. If a mediocre defender was guarding him, or a good defender who lacked the quickness to contain Jordan, that matters. It's like having Fred Hoigberg guarding Kobe Bryant...understand? Stop speaking in present tense about Jordan...he is no longer unstoppable. Jordan's poor defense does matter...if he scored 40 and the man who's guarding him scores 30, what's the real point? Or if the guy he's guarding scored 25 and dishes 10? Or if the guy he's guarding grabs offensive rebounds because Jordan isn't boxing out? It DOES matter. It doesn't matter if you score 40 points and give up just as many, be it through rebounds, points, assists, and so on...

You said you would, show me how good of a defender Jordan was in his fourth season. Oh, and you haven't backed up your statements whatsoever. You've simply bashed my opinion and provided a few stats that I asked for....

Why does it matter who is the second highest scorer in the Bulls ?
The fact is Jordan averaged more than 40 in that series.
Why does Jordan's first few year def. ability have any thing to do with a not early years Jordan's stats ?
What the context ?

I already said why it mattered. I know he averaged more than 40, I looked it up. That second sentence was unitelligible. Knock off the context thing, it's annoying because you don't even know what that means.

Well, my english is not good at all[/qoute]

I've noticed, it's horrendous. You should seek help.

and I have never get a better score than 3.5 in any English classes that's higher level than ESL.

ESL? 3.5? An A-? YOU got an A- in English? What grade are you, seventh grade?

Therefore, please define the phase "out of context" for me!

No. If you haven't figured out what it means from my comments in this post...

The future English teacher!

I am a future English teacher...and basketball coach...but you wouldn't know anything about doing the latter, you've proved that by your posts...

[bishibashiboy]

haha..this discussion reminds me of that picture i always see on other boards when discussions go super long with nobody willing to budge:

"arguing over the internet is like winning the special olympics...even if you win..you're still a retard........"



but anyways..ill just throw in my $0.02 on this topic simply because i have nothing better to do:

Enahs Live:
I have no clue what you're trying to say in the end..maybe i haven't been reading your posts clearly enough..but from what i gather..you seem to be defending yours comments a/b Jordan in some posts (that you never ruled out that he was a great player) and yet in other posts you seem to be completely bashing him and his great player status..if i'm completely confused a/b what you said..then just tell me..but i do agree with you that Kobe and T-mac CAN be better than Jordan and that they have the ability to be on his level...i don't believe either of them have reached their potential..and neither of them have the perfect championship calibre team built around them yet..and until they do..they will pale in comparison to MJ based on his championship accomplishments. However, you can't take away the individual accolades that MJ accomplished in his career such as D player of the year..MVP..blah blah blah..i do believe he's the only guard to ever win both awards in the same year which is quite phenomenal (to me anyways)

champ:
i'm not trying to flame you..but seriously..u don't have an open mind on topics..Enahs Live's comments are not ludicrous..and honestly it seems as though your only reply to his arguments are that he's insane/uneducated for not seeing things your way...i'll admit i'm a Jordan fan..but Enah's comments didn't strike me as being blatantly offensive...i hate to break it to u..but MJ is not god..he was a great player..but he will be surpassed eventually..by not admitting to this..you're no better than people that though the earth was square..no margin for error whatsoever...oh and on a side-note..can you point out exactly when MJ averaged 32-8-8...because i don't think he ever did.

Anyways..i think it's so pointless to argue a/b who was the greatest player ever blah blah blah..arguing across a different generation of players and rule changes make this very pointless..defenses were quite pathetic in the past according to what "experts" say (lack of double teams..)..so stats don't mean much when comparing...
Sure Wilt scored 100 in a game..but could he score 100 in a game today against present day players?..i won't rule out the possiblity..but i'd say it's quite improbable..
so why argue about the greatest ever??..it just makes everyone unhappy..i'll just say what someone else said earlier: MJ was the greatest player that I'VE ever seen..and as of right now..i believe no present day guard has surpassed what he has done.

[Big Answer]

Hummmm, Enahs Live....R U a Jordan hater ???
Is there a single player in the actual league who has made as many buzzer beater shots as MJ......I think U should respect him coz he never refused to take his responsabilities in the ends of game for example....
Remember even last year he made some winning game buzzer beater...
And remember 98 vs Utah......last game

I admit that 2 years ago VC impressed me by his game, the way he played reminded me MJ.....the way he took his responsabilities in the ends of game!!!

And as far as somebody else wins so many rings.....
How do U explain the fact that when Jordan retired in 93, the next 3 seasons the BULLS weren't champions, while they almost had the same roster ???
And, Wow, what a surprise !!! When he comes back for a whole season, his team is NBA champion.......for the 3 seasons he played!!!!
I think U can't deny the fact that he made his team better.....
He made his teammates feeling great, confident.......and that, that is the proof he is the best player of all times....He has let an unerasable print in the NBA ........

[Andrew]

can you point out exactly when MJ averaged 32-8-8...because i don't think he ever did.

Because I have the time, I'll check out the exact year.

The year was 1988/89, in which MJ averaged 32.5 ppg, 8 rpg and 8 apg, as well as 2.89 spg.

Source: Michael Jordan Playerfile (Career Stats)

[scubilete]

I don't know if I said this earlier, but when Jordan came back from his first retirement, he had a huge team around him, that would explain why his team won 3 more years. Ohhh, He came back during a running season, and he didn't win that championship. in fact, he lost the ball in a silly way, that cost Chicago the game against Orlando. I'm not going to say anything about being the best or that nobody else is going to accomplish whatever he has done in the game because like others would say: a record is an accomplishment that sooner or later will be broken. I admit there are records really difficult to break, maybe impossible at the moment, but the same way they were done or set, the same way they can be reached or broken.

Is there a single player in the actual league who has made as many buzzer beater shots as MJ

MMMMMMMM, Reggie?

I have to admit I'm not a MJ fan, but I admire what he's done. Regarding the Jordan haters, you guys can't complain about it cause if there weren't Jordan haters, who would you discuss with?

[Andrew]

Is there a single player in the actual league who has made as many buzzer beater shots as MJ

Forgot about that one. I'm an MJ fan, but both Reggie and Jerry West can boast excellent clutch performances.

[Ricks]

nawww man you deleted mah post?!

damn this shit is rigged...

[Ricks]

Is there a single player in the actual league who has made as many buzzer beater shots as MJ

Forgot about that one. I'm an MJ fan, but both Reggie and Jerry West can boast excellent clutch performances.

yeah reggies done a lot of buzzer beaters, but most of them are for regular season games that don't amount to nothing more than just a win...

MJs won them rings and conference championships... and when reggie knocks down a clutch shot I remember back then watching in the old arena, everyone's so happy... like "whoa!!! it went in!!! yes we won the game"happy (not just any happy) in contrast to when mj knocks down a winner... sure there's jubilation, but ppl are less surprised.

Reggie throws them up and hopes for the best, but mj makes his shots and kills the defense... that's what makes him great...

peace

[EGarrett]

EGarrett wrote:
There are twice as many teams in the league as in the 60's...the Earth's population is twice as large now as it was in the 60's.

Ben wrote:
And your point is...absolutely nothing.

EGarrett wrote:
Average player height is up.

Ben wrote:
And your point is...again nothing. Eric Montross is taller than Wes Unseld, yet I wouldn't call him anywhere near as good.

I think I figured out the problem here.

The logical progression of a debate or discussion is point-support-rebuttal-support, meaning a person makes a point then provides reasons to support it. You don't seem to subscribe to this theory, but most other people who do this normally do. The point was that "Expansion has not watered down the league." The following lines in that paragraph are the 'support' including explaining how the population-to-team ratio is the same (a leap from the information given that I incorrectly assumed you would be able to make) and that the average player is bigger and thus more naturally apt for the game than in the past. You don't seem to recognize that those lines all support the point that is the topic sentence of the paragraph.

Likewise, in order for a useful exchange of ideas to continue, you would have to have a rebuttal point and support for that rebuttal point. Instead you simply throw out points with no support for them. That's the antithesis of a good discussion...

I gave multiple ones!!! Why don't you read all of my posts instead of just bits and pieces?

Because if you'd look at the posts you direct towards me, they are nothing but bits and pieces...points thrown out with no support. I do the best I can but really it's laborious to have to disprove the inaccurate statements you make (i.e. expansion watered down the league) so often I just choose to talk with other people, where at least I have a chance of hearing a logical supported reply for my effort.

Shane wrote:

But I have given him credit! I never said he wasn't a special player, but I said someone will come along who will be better than him, and it won't be too long.

Why will Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant be better than him? Because they have the talent? So did Elgin Baylor, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins and the others I listed. They played their entire careers so close to being at that level and yet never got over that hump...so why should we believe the current players can? The only difference I see now is that we've seen Michael so now the media is obsessed with seeing the current crop of high flying scoring guards reach that level.

If you want to copy and paste reasons you gave previously go ahead but I hope those reasons will explain why we should believe these current players are different...

You're ignoring the ENTIRE premise of this discussion, and it was simple as that.

I looked through the discussion regularly before I participated in it. Most of what I saw was people arguing and cursing each other over things that had nothing to do with Michael Jordan so I stopped checking. Would you rather I follow the meaningless bickering in an attempt to see if there is a point about Michael Jordan somewhere in it?

When I saw some type of discussion begin and people making some (wildly inaccurate) statements I chose to refute those. I think it's understandable that someone wouldn't waste their time reading the bickering that the majority of this post was. I think the initial point was lost a long time ago in this post so I'm replying to what I can.

And Ben's right...Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant were all-stars, Dennis Rodman perhaps...it's not like those players are poor.

So who did the Bulls have that could command a double-team in the post? It certainly wasn't Bill Cartwright. Horace Grant was a power forward and thus a high-post player. Dennis was a great rebounder and defender but actually made things harder on offense. Again, Jordan was there only post-threat as a guard. The Bulls got it done 6 times regardless...so somebody on there was doing something unprecedented...

Throw in all the "three point bombers,"

Spot-up three point shooters are most useful to teams that can command a double-team in the post then kick it out. When the Bulls wanted to do that they again had to go to Jordan and rely on his passing ability...

and that's WAAAAY more than Duncan

Considering that Duncan had a still-effective David Robinson...and Jaren Jackson, Mario Elie, and Steve Kerr as spot-up shooters when he won a title I don't think he should be part of this particular list.

, Garnett, and TMac has....

Garnett and T-Mac haven't even come close to a championship so it's not as if they're doing the same thing Jordan did with less help. They're simply putting up numbers on an underpowered team. When Jordan was in the same role he was averaging 32, 8 and 8...or 35 points on 53% shooting with 5.5 and 6. He was significantly more efficient in the same role...

Kobe has Shaq, which equals Grant and Rodman, and they have 3 point bombers...

Shaq is equal to a lot more than Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman were to the Bulls. Neither Grant nor Rodman was a low-post threat, and Shaq is arguably the greatest low-post threat the game has seen. The Lakers can run their entire offense through him by dumping the ball inside and spotting up along the three-point line and seeing if the other team gives them the Shaq dunk or the open three. The best Horace could do was spot-up at the elbow and hit the jumper when open and letting Dennis touch the ball at all on offense was a gamble. The Bulls ran their offense through Jordan just as the Lakers run theirs through Shaq.

Shaq has been the dominant centerpiece of 3 championships just as Jordan was the dominant centerpiece of 6. So if anyone should be compared to Michael it's Shaquille...and then you have an interesting discussion.

[benji]

I think I figured out the problem here.

The logical progression of a debate or discussion is point-support-rebuttal-support, meaning a person makes a point then provides reasons to support it. You don't seem to subscribe to this theory, but most other people who do this normally do. The point was that "Expansion has not watered down the league." The following lines in that paragraph are the 'support' including explaining how the population-to-team ratio is the same (a leap from the information given that I incorrectly assumed you would be able to make) and that the average player is bigger and thus more naturally apt for the game than in the past. You don't seem to recognize that those lines all support the point that is the topic sentence of the paragraph.

Likewise, in order for a useful exchange of ideas to continue, you would have to have a rebuttal point and support for that rebuttal point. Instead you simply throw out points with no support for them. That's the antithesis of a good discussion...

None of those lines supported anything. Just because a player is bigger doesn't mean they're more apt for the game or anywhere near as skilled (Montross vs. Unseld...Iverson vs. Kwame), you said Expansion doesn't waterdown the league and then said nothing about why it doesn't. When I clearly quoted and pointed out that the same number of stars in 168, means there is less watering down than the same number in 348. The Worlds Population has no bearing on the talent level of the NBA. Back in the 60s you wouldn't see guys like Lavor Postell even in the league. You wouldn't see guys like Samaki Walker and Tyson Chandler in the league, let alone starting.

Because if you'd look at the posts you direct towards me, they are nothing but bits and pieces...points thrown out with no support.

I supported the statement that the league is not far better today. You can contend I didn't but then you're ignoring what I posted.

I do the best I can but really it's laborious to have to disprove the inaccurate statements you make (i.e. expansion watered down the league) so often I just choose to talk with other people, where at least I have a chance of hearing a logical supported reply for my effort.

You never proved anything, and you continue to insult me for no reason, that's violating guidelines, so follow the rules for a change.

So if anyone should be compared to Michael it's Shaquille...and then you have an interesting discussion.

No, you wouldn't. Because all the Jordan fans would say "you can't compare them, one's a guard and one's a center", and you know they would.

And remember 98 vs Utah......last game

When he admittedly pushed off?

How do U explain the fact that when Jordan retired in 93, the next 3 seasons the BULLS weren't champions, while they almost had the same roster ???

First of all, the Bulls only played one full season without Jordan. Second, they lost only two games less without him in 93-94, were only one or two bad calls away from heading back to the Finals, had a falling apart frontcourt, had to replace 32.6ppg scorer with Pete Myers (because of Jordan's late retirement), so considering they were still an elite team in the East I'd say they did more than good. In 94-95, they had lost Horace Grant to free agency and thus had no interor presense on either end of the floor, Jordan returned giving the Bulls a Shooting Guard who didn't have busted knees and could score more than 7ppg. They then did lose...

He made his teammates feeling great, confident.......and that, that is the proof he is the best player of all times....He has let an unerasable print in the NBA ........

No, that is not proof. For one, you can't prove he did any of that.

[scubilete]

MJ is having another huge game tonite, 20 Pts in just the 1st Quarter, Actually He's on fire, I think this will be another 50 plus game for him but he better make sure the wiz win the game.

[Andrew]

He'll have to continue picking up the slack on offense with Stack out for a few games, if the Wizards want to stay afloat.

[Wall St. Peon]

Enahs Live:
I have no clue what you're trying to say in the end..maybe i haven't been reading your posts clearly enough..but from what i gather..you seem to be defending yours comments a/b Jordan in some posts (that you never ruled out that he was a great player) and yet in other posts you seem to be completely bashing him and his great player status..if i'm completely confused a/b what you said..then just tell me..but i do agree with you that Kobe and T-mac CAN be better than Jordan and that they have the ability to be on his level...i don't believe either of them have reached their potential..and neither of them have the perfect championship calibre team built around them yet..and until they do..they will pale in comparison to MJ based on his championship accomplishments. However, you can't take away the individual accolades that MJ accomplished in his career such as D player of the year..MVP..blah blah blah..i do believe he's the only guard to ever win both awards in the same year which is quite phenomenal (to me anyways)

I've never taken anything away from Jordan except the God-like status given to him by the media and uninformed individuals. I like Jordan, it's just that I find the rabid following that he has incredibly annoying because of their lack of vision for both the past and future. My point was simply that he would be eclipsed and the conversation degraded to this.

champ:
i'm not trying to flame you..but seriously..u don't have an open mind on topics..Enahs Live's comments are not ludicrous..and honestly it seems as though your only reply to his arguments are that he's insane/uneducated for not seeing things your way...i'll admit i'm a Jordan fan..but Enah's comments didn't strike me as being blatantly offensive...i hate to break it to u..but MJ is not god..he was a great player..but he will be surpassed eventually..by not admitting to this..you're no better than people that though the earth was square..no margin for error whatsoever...oh and on a side-note..can you point out exactly when MJ averaged 32-8-8...because i don't think he ever did.

Anyways..i think it's so pointless to argue a/b who was the greatest player ever blah blah blah..arguing across a different generation of players and rule changes make this very pointless..defenses were quite pathetic in the past according to what "experts" say (lack of double teams..)..so stats don't mean much when comparing...
Sure Wilt scored 100 in a game..but could he score 100 in a game today against present day players?..i won't rule out the possiblity..but i'd say it's quite improbable..
so why argue about the greatest ever??..it just makes everyone unhappy..i'll just say what someone else said earlier: MJ was the greatest player that I'VE ever seen..and as of right now..i believe no present day guard has surpassed what he has done.

It's about time someone took my 'side' against Champ's ignorance...MJ is probably the greatest player I've ever seen; I've seen footage of Oscar and Wilt and so on, but I've never seen more than clips. However, I still recognize how great they are. If I had seen Wilt play, I might say he's the best to this day and I'd be jumped on by the media frenzied fans of Michael Jordan. If you go against Jordan, you're wrong, no matter what your opinion or point.

Hummmm, Enahs Live....R U a Jordan hater ???

No, I'm realistic and think for myself...

Is there a single player in the actual league who has made as many buzzer beater shots as MJ......I think U should respect him coz he never refused to take his responsabilities in the ends of game for example....

Yeah, there's players with more buzzer beaters...many of them, actually.

Remember even last year he made some winning game buzzer beater...
And remember 98 vs Utah......last game

Milt Pilacio made like three game winners in a year...so what? As for the Utah game? That was a push off, if you don't think it was you need to spit out Jordan's jock strap and move his balls so you can watch it again...

I admit that 2 years ago VC impressed me by his game, the way he played reminded me MJ.....the way he took his responsabilities in the ends of game!!!

OK, now I know you're on something...VC only took over the responsibility of the last shot a few times...he's deferred the shot many times and has been criticized heavily.

And as far as somebody else wins so many rings.....
How do U explain the fact that when Jordan retired in 93, the next 3 seasons the BULLS weren't champions, while they almost had the same roster ???
And, Wow, what a surprise !!! When he comes back for a whole season, his team is NBA champion.......for the 3 seasons he played!!!!

He was only gone one year, and it wasn't even an entire season...I think, anyway, I could look at Ben's post but I don't feel like scrolling down. How about you replace a 30ppg scorer? It's kinda hard. Look what happened to the Lakers when Shaq was out...they were horrible. Yeah, bring that 30 ppg to an already good team and what do you get? Perhaps championships? The Bulls team was loaded....

I think U can't deny the fact that he made his team better.....
He made his teammates feeling great, confident.......and that, that is the proof he is the best player of all times....He has let an unerasable print in the NBA ........

But...I never said he didn't make his teammates better. And Ben's right, you can't prove he made them confident. You act like Jordan's the only player to ever do that...I say Jason Kidd does a better job at making his teammate's better, but that's just me...but I never said Jordan didn't do it.

Yes, he has left a mark on the NBA, but like I'll say later on, it isn't necessarily a good mark.

Why will Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant be better than him? Because they have the talent? So did Elgin Baylor, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins and the others I listed. They played their entire careers so close to being at that level and yet never got over that hump...so why should we believe the current players can? The only difference I see now is that we've seen Michael so now the media is obsessed with seeing the current crop of high flying scoring guards reach that level.

If you want to copy and paste reasons you gave previously go ahead but I hope those reasons will explain why we should believe these current players are different...

Why? They still have at least 12 years left in the league, and they're playing at a high level and improving. Kobe will get his own team with an offense built around him and you'll be eating your words when you see how special of a player he'll become. You mentioned other players that were primarily scorers; Kobe and Tracy McGrady are more all around players than Dominique and Drexler...I can't say much about Elgin Baylor, as I don't really know much about him...Bryant and McGrady are more talented and have far more time than those players ever did, and I don't think we've seen the best of these guards of today. You think I'm obsessing because of the media? Look in the mirror, you're calling Jordan the best player ever...and the only reason he has that label is....the media.

I looked through the discussion regularly before I participated in it. Most of what I saw was people arguing and cursing each other over things that had nothing to do with Michael Jordan so I stopped checking. Would you rather I follow the meaningless bickering in an attempt to see if there is a point about Michael Jordan somewhere in it?

When I saw some type of discussion begin and people making some (wildly inaccurate) statements I chose to refute those. I think it's understandable that someone wouldn't waste their time reading the bickering that the majority of this post was. I think the initial point was lost a long time ago in this post so I'm replying to what I can.

No, I meant the current discussion, you know, the one where you chimed in and basically called me a moron. The one where I said Jordan would be surpassed and the entire ensuing argument. You don't think Jordan's talent level will be eclipsed? If so, you're more of a fool than Champ.

Wildly inaccurate? What have I said that is innaccurate? I've never said anything 'wildly inaccurate.' I made a mistake or two, which I recognize, but you've done nothing but put words in my mouth. You act like you're an infallible God when it comes to the game of basketball, and I think you're far, far from that. You claim you know the history of the NBA, yet you say that the league is more competitive now than in the Golden Era of the league...expansion severely watered down the league. How many horrible teams are there? How many teams get into the playoffs just because the rest of the teams are just as bad? How many players in the league really probably shouldn't be there but are because teams need every decent player they can get? How many players are nothing more than athletes who have no idea how to play the game? They're quick to the hoop, but they don't know how to set a screen, make a proper chest pass and so on. Jordan turned the league into this, and that's part of the reason I don't care for him that much anymore. The media's obsession with young athletic players who dunk has turned the NBA into a joke, and it's Jordan's fault. Best player ever? Please. Great player for a decade, but nothing more. Best guard of the 90's, by far. Best player of the 90's? Debateable, but probable.

What have I said that is wildly inaccurate? My opinions that I supported with more than reasonable evidence as to why I think so?? If my opinions are inaccurate to you, I could frankly care less. They definately aren't wrong. You're obviously not seeing the logic that I'm using, and if you can't understand them I'm not going to make you or waste my time explaining them to a pompous know-it all...

I don't even feel like dealing with the rest of your post...

[Andrew]

That was a push off, if you don't think it was you need to spit out Jordan's jock strap and move his balls so you can watch it again...

Kind of like Reggie Miller pushing Jordan off with two hands so he could nail a three pointer to avoid going down 3-0 in the 1998 Eastern Conference Finals. The top guys get away with all kinds of stuff, Jordan, Ewing, all of them get away/got away with stuff I'd never get away with when I play (especially travelling violations). Guess you can't let the rules get in the way of competition.

[scubilete]

It's about time someone took my 'side' against Champ's ignorance

, Champ has a point which is common in any obcessed Jordan Fan, you can't change it.

What about if I try to make all of you understand Magic was the best ever who has played in the league?, I would be the only one but I don't think I would get some result.

He's a fan and there's nothing we can do about it. I have to admit I agree with him in few things because MJ Fan say something true but they make it look like Nobody else will get to that ever.

My point is, if I see someone saying Jordan is the best ever, I just say yes he's great. But if I try to make them change their mind, I will be just losing my time. It's not that nobody agrees with you Enahs, it's just that sometimes is useless. Everybody has their mind set up already, lol.

[scubilete]

Oh well, MJ didn't get 50 tonite, lol, maybe next time

[champ]

Michael Jordan had 32 points, 8 assists, 6 rebounds, 2 steals as the Washington Wizards defeated the Orlando Magic by 15 despite the absence of Jerry Stackhouse.

[Clinton]

I thought he was going to explode and have a huge night after he scored 28 in the first half. He did a lot more playmaking in the second half though. Still a great game for MJ, he even outscored TMac.

[champ]

I think Jordan realises that every time he scores 40 or 50 points he is compromising the development of his teammates and putting next season in jeopardy.

Next season his teammates will be expected to suddenly step-up and carry a load they are not familiar with. Jordan getting the team off to a good start via scoring was neccessary. So was setting up his teammates in the 2nd half for long-term reasons.

However you will see 40-50 point games in certain games where the opposition continues to heavily threaten the Wizards despite Jordan's continuous scoring (for example, the 41 point game vs Indiana).

[Andrew]

Yes, it was nice to see that kind of performance from MJ, but as Champ pointed out, next season they won't have him as the second option to fall back on. If Hughes continues to improve and be consistent, then it won't be so bad. At any rate, great game for MJ, good win over a division rival.

[champ]

Jordan will continue to carry the scoring load as it has been revealed that Stackhouse will miss a month due to his groin injury.