Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

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Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:59 am

What is known is the inventor of volleyball, also a YMCA instructor, invented the sport 10 miles away and a couple of years after the sport of basketball was invented by James Naismith. It is know for certain that the inventor of that sport, William G. Morgan, was inspired by Naismith's creation. But does it transcend inspiration to being a derivation of basketball? Specifically, the original rules of basketball?

The second rule of the 13 original rules proposed by James Naismith was:

"2. The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands, but never with the fist."

It is assumed basketball was played like netball, with players, unable to dribble or move with the ball, lobbing passes to one another. But slapping the ball or even volleying the ball may have also been a part of the male version of the sport, an aspect that may have been deemed unwomanly when it was adapted to the womens game, especially when considering they were playing with a 13-15 ounce soccer (association football) ball. In fact, it was specified as the 2nd rule, rules which include such oversights as an out of bounds rule (probably because they played in small facilities that were walled off which probably later led to the sport using cages).

Naturally, there is no footage of these early games. And for clarification, you'd have to practically chance encounter a player from the era talking about this specific practice as it is unlikely volleyball was of sufficient popularity (it is said Wilt Chamberlain helped increase the popularity in the '70s, for which he later became a hall of famer in two sports*) to just spontaneously come up in inquiries. If this doesn't happen it basically just gets lost in time. But I find it extremely easy to imagine a certain percent of passes in the early game being slaps.

*Wilt Chamberlain is NOT in the volleyball hall of fame. The claims are that he was in the IVA hall of fame due to his role in promoting the sport as an owner. The IVA is a long defunked league and I can find no info on their hall of fame. The league only lasted 5 years, so it can't have been too hard to get into that hall of fame.

Another point in its favor is that size of the court and the fact that the first game had 9 players per team, or 18 players total. It is likely the YMCA facility where it was first played was tiny. It was played for several years with teams of varying size depending on the size of the playing area, but generally tended towards 9 per side. This probably meant passing had to be quick to try to find holes in the defense so catching and passing may not have been the only way to play. There is even evidence to suggest the game may have been more like a pinball machine with players making use of the walls, as it was said players were reluctant to abandon cages due to this ability (over time the metal cages where replaced by rope and this ability was lost).
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby Andrew on Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:52 pm

So, I'm not that familiar with the history of volleyball, but looking into it a bit, it seems there is some connection there. However, it also seems to be more inspired by badminton (originally having the name "Mintonette"), tennis, and handball, so if it's conceptually derivative of anything, I'd say it's those sports first and foremost. That being said, just as Dr Naismith took ideas from other sports in his invention of basketball, Morgan clearly borrowed a few ideas from him (and I suppose by proxy, those other sports as well).

It's funny. I know someone who is staunchly anti-basketball, whose argument boils down to the fact that it was cobbled together as an indoor game to keep students active on a rainy day. Considering that most sports also had humble beginnings before eventually evolving into their modern form (and are just as simplistic when you break them down), it's always struck me as a rather petty reason to dismiss basketball as a "bad" sport. It's basically just an attempt at rationalising a subjective opinion and preference with a seemingly objective and academic critique, not fulfilling some imaginary requirement in its conception to be a legitimate sport or game.
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:16 pm

This is how I am making my chronology of the sport look. I have done up more comprehensive chronologies, and am changing format. I will refer to the rules of basketball (general) but they will transform into the rules of basketball (NBA) after 1946. I will point out various non-NBA inventions outside the sport box. It is conceivably the format may need changing as it progresses.

There are indentations accompanying the -'s but if I use CODE tags the text becomes misaligned as I formatted it at more characters width than CODE here displays.

eg.

Code: Select all
GAME: "Basket Ball" (general)
- GENERAL
 - PLAYERS: 9 per side.
 - LENGTH: 30 minutes.
 - POINTS PER GOAL: 1.
- COURT
 - INCEPTION
  - Boundaries.
- RULES
 - INCEPTION
   - The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.
   - The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands.
   - A player cannot run with the ball. The player must throw it from the spot on which he catches it, allowance to be made for a man who
     catches the ball when running at a good speed if he tries to stop.
   - The ball must be held in or between the hands; the arms or body must not be used for holding it.
   - No shouldering, holding, striking, pushing, or tripping in any way of an opponent. The first infringement of this rule by any person
     shall count as a foul; the second shall disqualify him until the next basket is made or, if there was evident intent to injure the
     person, for the whole of the game. No substitution shall be allowed.
   - A foul is striking at the ball with the fist, violation of rules three and four and such described in rule five.
   - If either side makes three consecutive fouls, it shall count a goal for the opponents (consecutive means without the opponents in the
     mean time making a foul).
   - A goal shall be made when the ball is thrown or batted from the grounds into the basket and stays there (without falling), providing
     those defending the goal do not touch or disturb the goal. If the ball rests on the edges, and the opponent moves the basket, it shall
     count as a goal.
   - When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play and played by the first person touching it. In case of
     dispute the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds. If he holds it longer, it shall go
     to the opponent. If any side persists in delaying the game, the umpire shall call a foul on that side.
   - The umpire shall be the judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive fouls have been made.
     He shall have power to disqualify people according to Rule 5.
   - The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it belongs, and shall keep
     the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made and keep account of the baskets, with any other duties that are usually performed
     by a scorekeeper.
   - The time shall be two fifteen-minute halves, with five minutes rest between.
   - The side making the most points in that time is declared the winner.
   - The game was started with a jump ball.
 - EQUIPMENT
  - INCEPTION
   - Peach baskets
    - Possibly around 18 inches in diameter (56.5 inch circumference).
    - Bottom intact trapping ball.
   - Elevated track
    - Basket affixed to a 10 foot (3.0 m) high track.
   - Associated Football (soccer) ball
    - Inflatable rubber bladder (1862).
    - 27 to 28 inches (68.6 cm to 71.1 cm) circumference (1872).
    - 13-15 ounces (1872).
 - CHANGE
  - Rings of woven wire
    - Replaced peach baskets sometime in 1892.
    - Nets were first used with the change in rings, cupped at the bottom so as to trap the ball.


1872?

?
- Childhood game played by James Naismith called "Duck on a Rock" (at about the age of 11).

GAME: "Duck on a Rock"
- RULES
- A player (the 'guard') places a small rock on a large rock.
- Other players attempt to dislodge the small rock by throwing another rock.
- If the rock misses the other rock, the thrower must run to get the stone and avoid being tagged by the defender (the 'guard').

1891/1892

December 21, 1891
- The first game of basketball is played between two teams of 9 players.

January 15, 1892
- The first 13 rules of basketball is published.

January 20, 1892
- The first official basketball game is played in the YMCA gynasium in Sprinfield, Massachusetts.

March 6, 1892
- No later than this date and possibly sooner Senda Berenson Abbott adapted the rules for women and began featuring the game in her classes
giving rise to womens basketball.

March 11, 1892
- The first basketball game is played in public between students and faculty at the Springfield YMCA infront of 200 spectators with the
students winning 5-1.

GAME: "Basket Ball" (general)
- GENERAL
- PLAYERS: 9 per side.
- LENGTH: 30 minutes.
- POINTS PER GOAL: 1.
- COURT
- INCEPTION
- Boundaries.
- RULES
- INCEPTION
- The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.
- The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands.
- A player cannot run with the ball. The player must throw it from the spot on which he catches it, allowance to be made for a man who
catches the ball when running at a good speed if he tries to stop.
- The ball must be held in or between the hands; the arms or body must not be used for holding it.
- No shouldering, holding, striking, pushing, or tripping in any way of an opponent. The first infringement of this rule by any person
shall count as a foul; the second shall disqualify him until the next basket is made or, if there was evident intent to injure the
person, for the whole of the game. No substitution shall be allowed.
- A foul is striking at the ball with the fist, violation of rules three and four and such described in rule five.
- If either side makes three consecutive fouls, it shall count a goal for the opponents (consecutive means without the opponents in the
mean time making a foul).
- A goal shall be made when the ball is thrown or batted from the grounds into the basket and stays there (without falling), providing
those defending the goal do not touch or disturb the goal. If the ball rests on the edges, and the opponent moves the basket, it shall
count as a goal.
- When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play and played by the first person touching it. In case of
dispute the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds. If he holds it longer, it shall go
to the opponent. If any side persists in delaying the game, the umpire shall call a foul on that side.
- The umpire shall be the judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive fouls have been made.
He shall have power to disqualify people according to Rule 5.
- The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it belongs, and shall keep
the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made and keep account of the baskets, with any other duties that are usually performed
by a scorekeeper.
- The time shall be two fifteen-minute halves, with five minutes rest between.
- The side making the most points in that time is declared the winner.
- The game was started with a jump ball.
- EQUIPMENT
- INCEPTION
- Peach baskets
- Possibly around 18 inches in diameter (56.5 inch circumference).
- Bottom intact trapping ball.
- Elevated track
- Basket affixed to a 10 foot (3.0 m) high track.
- Associated Football (soccer) ball
- Inflatable rubber bladder (1862).
- 27 to 28 inches (68.6 cm to 71.1 cm) circumference (1872).
- 13-15 ounces (1872).
- CHANGE
- Rings of woven wire
- Replaced peach baskets sometime in 1892.
- Nets were first used with the change in rings, cupped at the bottom so as to trap the ball.

1893

GAME: Basketball (general)
- EQUIPMENT
- INCEPTION
- Backboards were first used probably towards the start of the year, originally made of chicken wire. They were invented to stop fans
from the balconies interfering with shots.
- CHANGE
- Rings of woven wire were replaced by cast iron rings and (as they were previously) accompanied by nets that were cupped at the bottom
which did not allow the ball to fall through.

1894

GAME: Basketball (general)
- EQUIPMENT
- CHANGE
- First purpose made basketball
- 32 inch circumference.
- 20 ounces.

1895

?
- Inspired by basketball, volleyball (Mintonette) is invented by William G. Morgan in Holyoke, Massachusetts 10 miles (16 kilometres) from
where basketball was invented.

PERSONAL THEORY: Original basketball is typically thought of as a male version of todays netball. I believe as the game was evolving it
may have been played in unique ways. One of the ways which might have captivated young men at the time was the possibility that you did
not need to catch and pass the ball. The second rule of basketball was that the ball could be swatted in either direction. Combined with
the fact that the gymnasium was probably rather small and there were 9 players a side, and there were walls just outside the boundaries
and out of bounds was awarded to whoever retrieved it, and finally that the ball was a lighter association football, it is possible
swatting the ball instead of catching and passing (including off the gymnasium walls like a game of pinball (which itself hadn't evolved from bagatelle yet): there is evidence of this in accounts when cages were later used and it may explain why they seemingly illogically retained the original out of bounds rule for the first decade because the walls were used as strategy) was used to outsmart the defense. In this way, basketball may have served more than just inspiration for volleyball but volleyball may have drawn from aspects of the way
basketball was actually originally played just as it drew from a variety of more familiar raquet net games.

GAME: Basketball (general)
- COURT
- CHANGE
- Free throw line

The preserved spacing but wrongly aligned lines format:

Code: Select all
1872?

?
- Childhood game played by James Naismith called "Duck on a Rock" (at about the age of 11).

GAME: "Duck on a Rock"
- RULES
 - A player (the 'guard') places a small rock on a large rock.
 - Other players attempt to dislodge the small rock by throwing another rock.
 - If the rock misses the other rock, the thrower must run to get the stone and avoid being tagged by the defender (the 'guard').

1891/1892

December 21, 1891
- The first game of basketball is played between two teams of 9 players.

January 15, 1892
- The first 13 rules of basketball is published.

January 20, 1892
- The first official basketball game is played in the YMCA gynasium in Sprinfield, Massachusetts.

March 6, 1892
- No later than this date and possibly sooner Senda Berenson Abbott adapted the rules for women and began featuring the game in her classes
  giving rise to womens basketball.

March 11, 1892
- The first basketball game is played in public between students and faculty at the Springfield YMCA infront of 200 spectators with the
  students winning 5-1.

GAME: "Basket Ball" (general)
- GENERAL
 - PLAYERS: 9 per side.
 - LENGTH: 30 minutes.
 - POINTS PER GOAL: 1.
- COURT
 - INCEPTION
  - Boundaries.
- RULES
 - INCEPTION
   - The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.
   - The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands.
   - A player cannot run with the ball. The player must throw it from the spot on which he catches it, allowance to be made for a man who
     catches the ball when running at a good speed if he tries to stop.
   - The ball must be held in or between the hands; the arms or body must not be used for holding it.
   - No shouldering, holding, striking, pushing, or tripping in any way of an opponent. The first infringement of this rule by any person
     shall count as a foul; the second shall disqualify him until the next basket is made or, if there was evident intent to injure the
     person, for the whole of the game. No substitution shall be allowed.
   - A foul is striking at the ball with the fist, violation of rules three and four and such described in rule five.
   - If either side makes three consecutive fouls, it shall count a goal for the opponents (consecutive means without the opponents in the
     mean time making a foul).
   - A goal shall be made when the ball is thrown or batted from the grounds into the basket and stays there (without falling), providing
     those defending the goal do not touch or disturb the goal. If the ball rests on the edges, and the opponent moves the basket, it shall
     count as a goal.
   - When the ball goes out of bounds, it shall be thrown into the field of play and played by the first person touching it. In case of
     dispute the umpire shall throw it straight into the field. The thrower-in is allowed five seconds. If he holds it longer, it shall go
     to the opponent. If any side persists in delaying the game, the umpire shall call a foul on that side.
   - The umpire shall be the judge of the men and shall note the fouls and notify the referee when three consecutive fouls have been made.
     He shall have power to disqualify people according to Rule 5.
   - The referee shall be judge of the ball and shall decide when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which side it belongs, and shall keep
     the time. He shall decide when a goal has been made and keep account of the baskets, with any other duties that are usually performed
     by a scorekeeper.
   - The time shall be two fifteen-minute halves, with five minutes rest between.
   - The side making the most points in that time is declared the winner.
   - The game was started with a jump ball.
 - EQUIPMENT
  - INCEPTION
   - Peach baskets
    - Possibly around 18 inches in diameter (56.5 inch circumference).
    - Bottom intact trapping ball.
   - Elevated track
    - Basket affixed to a 10 foot (3.0 m) high track.
   - Associated Football (soccer) ball
    - Inflatable rubber bladder (1862).
    - 27 to 28 inches (68.6 cm to 71.1 cm) circumference (1872).
    - 13-15 ounces (1872).
 - CHANGE
  - Rings of woven wire
    - Replaced peach baskets sometime in 1892.
    - Nets were first used with the change in rings, cupped at the bottom so as to trap the ball.

1893

GAME: Basketball (general)
- EQUIPMENT
 - INCEPTION
  - Backboards were first used probably towards the start of the year, originally made of chicken wire. They were invented to stop fans
    from the balconies interfering with shots.
 - CHANGE
  - Rings of woven wire were replaced by cast iron rings and (as they were previously) accompanied by nets that were cupped at the bottom
    which did not allow the ball to fall through.

1894

GAME: Basketball (general)
- EQUIPMENT
 - CHANGE
  - First purpose made basketball
   - 32 inch circumference.
   - 20 ounces.

1895

?
- Inspired by basketball, volleyball (Mintonette) is invented by William G. Morgan in Holyoke, Massachusetts 10 miles (16 kilometres) from
  where basketball was invented.

  PERSONAL THEORY: Original basketball is typically thought of as a male version of todays netball. I believe as the game was evolving it
  may have been played in unique ways. One of the ways which might have captivated young men at the time was the possibility that you did
  not need to catch and pass the ball. The second rule of basketball was that the ball could be swatted in either direction. Combined with
  the fact that the gymnasium was probably rather small and there were 9 players a side, and there were walls just outside the boundaries 
  and out of bounds was awarded to whoever retrieved it, and finally that the ball was a lighter association football, it is possible
  swatting the ball instead of catching and passing (including off the gymnasium walls like a game of pinball (which itself hadn't evolved    from bagatelle yet): there is evidence of this in accounts when cages were later used and it may explain why they seemingly illogically   retained the original out of bounds rule for the first decade because the walls were used as strategy) was used to outsmart the defense.    In this way, basketball may have served more than just inspiration for volleyball but volleyball may have drawn from aspects of the way
  basketball was actually originally played just as it drew from a variety of more familiar raquet net games.

GAME: Basketball (general)
- COURT
 - CHANGE
  - Free throw line
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:44 pm

Evidence for the claims that original basketball may have used the walls strategically to get around players in a congested playing area, like pinball (I know this is all wacky to comprehend, but apparently the early game was wackier than we tend to think):

https://www.si.com/vault/1991/11/11/125 ... m-the-fans

"The out-of-bounds rule was changed in 1902 to eliminate sideline scrimmages, but by that time the early pros were wedded to the cage. The thinking was that the game was faster and more entertaining in a cage because there were no delays to return the ball to play, and because the ball and the players could bounce off the wire mesh."

As said, I believe early basketball was played in a more confined in area that had balconies and walls at playing level. So these players who used the 'cage' may be coming from a background of having used the walls before the court became opened up at ground level. And the out of bounds rule was always nonsense unless it was an intrinsic part of the game. Why not penalize the last player to touch it for the first decade unless deliberately throwing it out of bounds (eg. to bounce it off a wall) was a strategical part of the game. Allegedly, it was only changed to stop scrimmages.

And in much the same way, the second rule of basketball (that it can be slapped in any direction) might not just be blocks or interceptions as we think. The game may have involved volleyball like slaps to keep the game fast and get an advantage in getting the ball to players in a tightly congested playing area, at least until the ball increased in weight 150%. The theoretical need to slap a ball to beat a defender in a tightly congested playing area with 9 aside basketball would have diminished as the courts became larger and the game progressed to 5 aside before the end of the 19th century.

The second rule of basketball literally says there might be an inspiration in the way basketball was played and the way volleyball is played. And we know that one was inspired by the invention of the other. And indeed, it was created as an alternate.
Last edited by dwayne2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:05 pm

The earliest surviving basketball court in the world, a Paris YMCA:

Image

While the wall which the ball would be theoretically bounced off of is quite visible from that perspective, I am under the impression from other photos there is a more significant empty space on the other side. I couldn't get link addresses for other pictures (https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/wor ... ball-court), but the overall court was not much bigger than that. So 9 aside would have to be crammed into that area.

EDIT: That's not the URL I had. I must've closed it off. This shows the full size of the court:

Image

It also shows that the accounts of fans interfering with baskets resulting in backboards was likely true. Minus the backboards, you can see how easy it'd have been for fans on the balconies to stop the ball going in.
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:26 am

Moreover still, we have this conceptualization via netball that players basically stand still and catch the ball and lob it to the next player with outstretched arms. In the context of a slapping game, the male players were presumably jumping higher and slapping the ball in mid-air like a jump ball, which is volleyball like. In fact, as far as I understand the jump ball was a part of the game from day #1 and for a long, long time every successful basket was followed by a jump ball, not change in possession.

So what you have I think is a tightly congested playing area of 18 men jumping up trying to swat the ball in mid air to other players because coming down with it would create a disadvantage since you couldn't move and you've got people surrounding you. Much of the game may have been played like continually engaing in jump balls.

Would this theoretical swatting of the ball to one another not resemble swatting the ball in volleyball? (Granted, none of these swats is probably a volley.)
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:59 am

Found this when I was trying to see what ball was originally used in volleyball:

http://www.volleyball.org/history.html

1895, William G. Morgan, an instructor at the Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) in Holyoke, Mass., decided to blend elements of basketball, baseball, tennis, and handball to create a game for his classes of businessmen which would demand less physical contact than basketball. He created the game of Volleyball (at that time called mintonette). Morgan borrowed the net from tennis, and raised it 6 feet 6 inches above the floor, just above the average man's head.

During a demonstration game, someone remarked to Morgan that the players seemed to be volleying the ball back and forth over the net, and perhaps "volleyball" would be a more descriptive name for the sport.


Don't know the sources, but I presume he had some source for the claim that it blended elements of basketball. Does baseball make sense? There's no bat, no bases, no slapping, no net, no... what the hell did it blend from baseball?
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby shadowgrin on Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:58 pm

Outfield players waiting to catch the ball similar to how volleyball players wait for the ball to return it.
Can't let the ball hit the ground if you want an out similar to volleyball not letting the ball hit the ground.
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Re: Was volleyball derived from original basketball?

Postby dwayne2005 on Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:27 am

Don't know about either of those, like the alleged basketball connections I have to try and conceptualize it. I think the second one may be more related to badminton (an apparent indisputable inspiration since the game was originally named Mintonette which somehow links back to badminton... haven't confirmed how).

Incidentally, while many sports have beach variants (proper beach variants, you play on a sand pitch not some other surface like beach basketball that just happens to be set up on a beach setting) korfball makes a lot more sense to me than something like beach soccer, since the sand isn't interfering with the ball which sounds to me like a frustration (it sounds like an unhappy union to be honest). Since the ball is always aloft and there's no dribbling, beach korfball isn't a mile away from volleyball IMO. I wish I could figure out the magic formula for making that sport good or appealing. I remember playing it in primary school and even then I thought it was weird. As you grow older, you see there are babes in it and then you begin to appreciate the sport more like a mature adult.

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