Jordan at 38-40 guarding the best players

[Dee4Three]

Triple-doubles have also become the standard for measuring all-around play now.

That's been the case even in the past though.
Magic, Bird, Grant Hill, Jason Kidd, all can drop a tripdub any given night and were considered all-around players despite the lack of defense or shooting range.

I agree with this to an extent.

I am talking about LeBron literally guarding the worst player on the floor in pretty much every game this season, and the lazy aspect of his defense as well. I am also trying to point out the blind fan base that laments him as a top tier defender (still), and the best player in the world, when he clearly does not play both sides of the ball at an above average level. His defense this year, seems below average.

[Jackal]

Calling Lebron the most overrated player in history is a bit of a hyperbole. At least it is to me. I'm by no means a fan, but the things he's done, the dominance he's displayed over the game for one and a half decade is pretty damn amazing. I agree with you that he's extremely arrogant and pretty unlikable because he seems very calculated/fake, but most overrated in the history of the game? Eh.

I'll admit I tend to watch Laker games mostly given my schedule these last few years but I think Miami Lebron guarded a lot of the opposing teams better players at the time.

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Also it's pretty amazing he could pretty much guard 1-5. Some plays he was on Tony Parker and a few on Tim Duncan.

[Dee4Three]

I agree that he took better players when he was with the Heat,I watched a game the other night where they played the Knicks and he guarded Melo most of the game.

But the last few years, it's been pretty bad. He needs to take more pride in his defense, even if it's just showing more effort.

But as long as he keeps putting up the stats, I don't think he really cares.

[Andrew]

Jokic just got a triple-double in 14 minutes, 33 seconds. His numbers were even bigger by the end of the night, which further demonstrates how today's game is facilitating big numbers, in particular triple-doubles. Still impressive, but it's being an overrated stat.

[benji]

lost a more detailed post, not going to rewrite it

but this is beyond silly, foolish jordon guarded those guys because the wizards didn't have anyone else

and it's beyond silly to try and use it to "point out a flaw in the perception of LeBron" that he's somehow overrated and not the most dominant player of his era, and has been so on both ends, because he's wisely conserved and yet still completely dominates, much as the other dominant monsters like Foolish Jordon or Shaq (who still to this day has never guarded a pick and roll, by anyone, not even children) or whoever else, were spared excess possessions when they could be and yet still dominated games because that's just smart allocation

LeBron's last three playoff runs have been historic by defensive metrics, someone playing 700+ minutes with a DPM of 4+ is super rare, less than twenty players have done it since the merger, and LeBron did it each of the last three playoffs. 800+ minutes and DPM of 5+ is even more rare and LeBron did it in back to back years, something only one other player has ever done also in a Finals split, Ben Wallace in 2004 and 2005.

Jordan's 1991, Duncan's 2003 and LeBron's 2016 are the three main choices for arguably the greatest playoff runs in post-merger history.

[benji]

you're pretty much revisiting the Skip Bayless argument from this classic:

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only after five further straight years of LeBron leading his teams into the NBA Finals, and with a bundle of rings to show for it, and even more absurd seasons and playoffs by every metric than he had abused to 2012's point in history

[Dee4Three]

lost a more detailed post, not going to rewrite it

but this is beyond silly, foolish jordon guarded those guys because the wizards didn't have anyone else

and it's beyond silly to try and use it to "point out a flaw in the perception of LeBron" that he's somehow overrated and not the most dominant player of his era, and has been so on both ends, because he's wisely conserved and yet still completely dominates, much as the other dominant monsters like Foolish Jordon or Shaq (who still to this day has never guarded a pick and roll, by anyone, not even children) or whoever else, were spared excess possessions when they could be and yet still dominated games because that's just smart allocation

LeBron's last three playoff runs have been historic by defensive metrics, someone playing 700+ minutes with a DPM of 4+ is super rare, less than twenty players have done it since the merger, and LeBron did it each of the last three playoffs. 800+ minutes and DPM of 5+ is even more rare and LeBron did it in back to back years, something only one other player has ever done also in a Finals split, Ben Wallace in 2004 and 2005.

Jordan's 1991, Duncan's 2003 and LeBron's 2016 are the three main choices for arguably the greatest playoff runs in post-merger history.

This comment has so many flaws, I'm not even touching it.

In regards to being overrated, he absolutley is. And my friend, you have fallen for the stat padding. Not only is it obvious that his defense is abysmal the last few years.

Overrated? Absolutely. Do the majority of people fall for his stat padding? Of course.

No comment on him guarding the worst player on each team almost every night? Or the rest on the times he literally shows no effort at all?

[benji]

If he's being overrated (by whom?) then what's his accurate "rating"?

How in the fuck is he supposed to be able to "stat-pad" his defensive metrics playing as many minutes as he does? How is he supposed to "stat-pad" his way to historic performances on that end? At his minutes where's he leaching the defensive "stat-padding" from if it's so obviously abysmal? Where's he "stat-padding" his all-around efficiency from at his usage rates and minutes?

What player has dictated the game year after year more in this era than LeBron? It's his to control as much as it was Foolish Jordon's and Shaq's in their primes. The only other player within the same solar system as those three during this quarter century is Duncan.

Considering he's led his teams to seven straight NBA Finals with a decade of all-time level performance, I can't see the argument that he's a modern version of Anthony Mason only with extra "stat-padding" that doesn't count on account of it being from extra efficiency and unmatched on-court dominance on both ends.

I did comment on your Skip Bayless tier argument in both posts. air gordon already took it as seriously at it needed to be considering it's based around highlight clips. Please reread, revise and resubmit, thanks.

[NovU]

Jokic just got a triple-double in 14 minutes, 33 seconds. His numbers were even bigger by the end of the night, which further demonstrates how today's game is facilitating big numbers, in particular triple-doubles. Still impressive, but it's being an overrated stat.

This is why I prefer metrics over raw stats. Possession based is way to go.


Today's ball game is played in completely different manner, no doubt. It's weird to see guards in top 10 rebounding category.



On topic anyone that actually know bball 101 should realize LBJ always been a great defender, both eye test and metrics obviously tell the same story. This is not an argument this is a fact. A very basic ball science.

Playing defense has become a much harder task to pull off these days. Pace is faster, no hand checking, more strict refereeing, teams playing more team plays, no more 1 on 1s, etc. This is why teams score more and more efficiently these days. And in Jordan's days, defenders could throat punch and get away, in today's league, 10 game suspension is guaranteed. LBJ's been a very successful team defensive anchor at more defensively significant position, and his teams have been defensively stellar throughout his career. Numbers back this up. benji's right regardless what other guy says(couldn't read, foe listed), on his knees licking Jordumb's balls.

[shadowgrin]

My favorite Jordan defensive work was when he let Ron Harper guard and tire out Gary Payton in the 96 Finals and Jordan just switched on Payton late in games or end of quarters. Amazing hustle and smarts from Jordan that LeBron could only dream of.

[hova-]

Jokic just got a triple-double in 14 minutes, 33 seconds. His numbers were even bigger by the end of the night, which further demonstrates how today's game is facilitating big numbers, in particular triple-doubles. Still impressive, but it's being an overrated stat.

This is why I prefer metrics over raw stats. Possession based is way to go.

Definitely. For teams/players you cannot watch every night (and most of us cannot watch every match of our favorite team and/or other teams, the metric stats are the way to go.

But what I really noticed: I was watching every of the first ~30 matches of the Mavs and it really gives you a feeling and sense of what a player does well or not. But then sometimes it is not even backed up by the stats ... which makes me doubt some stats as they are a bit general and rarely account helping out on defensive mistakes by other guys.

Another example is playing good denial defense or even playing lockdown D so that the player will just pass the ball instead of creating himself. Stuff like these is hard to see in stats and I wonder how else you could measure it except by eye test.

@Dee

"LeBron being most overrated ever" is just a simple thesis that

a) is too general (by whom? in which regard? only on D? how do accomplishments and expectations correlate? how do you measure 'being overrated'? How do you compare that to other players ?)

b) is very controversial (given his accolades and his 'peak' assumingly being only two years ago in the Finals)

c) somehow seems biased as you usually have been known as a "generation 80ies 90ies > nowadays" rider.


I also don't see how it is LeBrons fault when he is not guarding the best player on the opposing team - even if it is his decision, why should he not try to rest on defense in order to make plays on offense?

Further I feel like guarding Durant (an example that has been brought up quite often here) is not really something that it is worth to waste energy - with his lenght, shooting touch and overall skill, Durant will hit the same impossible shots, no matter if JR Smith or LeBron or Michael Jordan in his prime is defending him. So I rather let him do his thing and spend my energy on offense.

That 1:40 video example: dude, this is ONE play. I will certainly find a play on youtube where Michael Jordan does not look good on D. Further nobody picked up KD (LeBrons fault at first, but no one helped out - bad communication) and when KD is on a free lane around the three point line, coming with speed, it is too late (except you want to send him on the hardwood).

All in all, I can accept the thought of LeBron being a worse defender than Jordan and being a lazy defender (especially during regular season)

I cannot accept the whole "overrated" thing and the (sorry to say that) totally biased perception you have of LeBron in comparison to legends from back in the days.

[Dee4Three]

Haha, YES. This is what I wanted.

While we will disagree about him being overrated, I appreciate all the people that jumped on this.

About stat padding, it was rumored that his own teammates were accusing him of it. And, it's pretty obvious when you watch him play that he's doing it. I consider a lot of his stats empty.

Even in the finals, the commentators mentioned that he was doing it. He was feverishly getting layups in the final minute or so, even when the game was decided.

I think his taking the worst offensive player on defense, and always looking for the assist pass (by holding the ball so long), absolutely helps him acheive his desired numbers.

The stat padding/overrated comments stand, but again I appreciate all the people that jumped in on this one.


The comment above about "One Play" in regards to the 1:40 mark.

Seriously... who guards a man like this on an inbounds pass from the opposite side of the floor. Here, have a free basket.

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LOL to the 1:00 min mark, when he tries to yell at Jr Smith and Smith doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

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The play before he goes off on his team, he just stands there and doesn't help.

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So many plays in this series. The 0:53 mark is more of that lovely "just stand there" defense he plays.

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Here is LeBron getting torched by the Jet.

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More goodies from the Mavericks series. At 2:04, Bosh yells at LeBron for making him cover the corner three.

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Here is LeBron taking Paul George (Good), but getting beat not only to the hoop, but George getting wide open shots.

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Here is a complete lie:

Postby shadowgrin on Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:12 am

My favorite Jordan defensive work was when he let Ron Harper guard and tire out Gary Payton in the 96 Finals and Jordan just switched on Payton late in games or end of quarters. Amazing hustle and smarts from Jordan that LeBron could only dream of.

Right, because Jordan only covered Payton in the 4th quarter, or after he was tired out. Not that he started the game off on him in the finals... that couldn't have happened! Wait... Game 2 he was on him right from the start, Game 3 he was... wait...Game 5? no way.... Did you also forget that Ron Harper was also an elite defender? Him being on Payton also makes sense, both could take him. And both did.

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Stop acting like it's one or two plays here and there. Wherever he thinks he can take a play off, he will. And, a lot of his defensive effort issues (And incapabalilites) show up in the playoffs.

[air gordon]

My favorite Jordan defensive work was when he let Ron Harper guard and tire out Gary Payton in the 96 Finals and Jordan just switched on Payton late in games or end of quarters. Amazing hustle and smarts from Jordan that LeBron could only dream of.

don't you dare discredit, Jordan. i don't care if some bum named labradford smith dropped 37 on him either. i.. want... to.. be.. like.. Mike

while i'm a fan of millsap, i'd prefer to see Denver roll with the Jokic and 4 wing players lineup. while bum Zeller was getting freebies on them, it's fun watching Denver play

[NovU]

Calling LBJ an 'overrated' defender goes to show how a fan can be blinded by pure ignorance and hatred. What if I said Jordan's the manufactured hero on defense just because it's a common practice for media to hype up anything Jordan. He wasn't even the best defender on his team many years especially in his old days when he made the all nba defensive team.




Defense btw is largely a team activity especially in modern era where hero ball is often avoided in order to favor transition and set plays. Teams run faster and shoot faster, it's harder to be a defender especially with less tools(hand chack, soft calls) available nowadays.

While I also think LBJ as he got older has become a sleeper on defensive end during regular season, he was a step up great for the playoffs. Same thing with Kawhi. The Spurs were a better defensive team with Kawhi on bench. But we'd go remember only the great defender Kawhi on selective memory.

[Dee4Three]

Calling LBJ an 'overrated' defender goes to show how a fan can be blinded by pure ignorance and hatred. What if I said Jordan's the manufactured hero on defense just because it's a common practice for media to hype up anything Jordan. He wasn't even the best defender on his team many years especially in his old days when he made the all nba defensive team.




Defense btw is largely a team activity especially in modern era where hero ball is often avoided in order to favor transition and set plays. Teams run faster and shoot faster, it's harder to be a defender especially with less tools(hand chack, soft calls) available nowadays.

While I also think LBJ as he got older has become a sleeper on defensive end during regular season, he was a step up great for the playoffs. Same thing with Kawhi. The Spurs were a better defensive team with Kawhi on bench. But we'd go remember only the great defender Kawhi on selective memory.

In what way did he step up great in the playoffs last year? He got torched by Durant when he was on him, Durant shot something crazy like 65% with him covering him.

And it's not "pure ignorance and hatred". Watching both of them on defense, I see Jordan as a far superior defender not only effort wise, but smarts wise. In vice versa, I can say that you are being biased towards LeBron (and ignorant) by not only standing up for his defensive deficiency. but downplaying it as much as possible in order to keep your POV about him.

While it's easy to see when you are watching him play over the years, it's nice that Youtube has videos breaking down some of it.

[air gordon]

If he's being overrated (by whom?) then what's his accurate "rating"?

How in the fuck is he supposed to be able to "stat-pad" his defensive metrics playing as many minutes as he does? How is he supposed to "stat-pad" his way to historic performances on that end? At his minutes where's he leaching the defensive "stat-padding" from if it's so obviously abysmal? Where's he "stat-padding" his all-around efficiency from at his usage rates and minutes?

What player has dictated the game year after year more in this era than LeBron? It's his to control as much as it was Foolish Jordon's and Shaq's in their primes. The only other player within the same solar system as those three during this quarter century is Duncan.

Considering he's led his teams to seven straight NBA Finals with a decade of all-time level performance, I can't see the argument that he's a modern version of Anthony Mason only with extra "stat-padding" that doesn't count on account of it being from extra efficiency and unmatched on-court dominance on both ends.

I did comment on your Skip Bayless tier argument in both posts. air gordon already took it as seriously at it needed to be considering it's based around highlight clips. Please reread, revise and resubmit, thanks.

[Dee4Three]

[/quote]

Great movie. I appreciate this.

[air gordon]

really? that's terrific. now go ahead an answer benji's post..or not and just lose more credibility and gain more troll status. at least we have a few youtube vids to watch now

If he's being overrated (by whom?) then what's his accurate "rating"?

How in the fuck is he supposed to be able to "stat-pad" his defensive metrics playing as many minutes as he does? How is he supposed to "stat-pad" his way to historic performances on that end? At his minutes where's he leaching the defensive "stat-padding" from if it's so obviously abysmal? Where's he "stat-padding" his all-around efficiency from at his usage rates and minutes?

What player has dictated the game year after year more in this era than LeBron? It's his to control as much as it was Foolish Jordon's and Shaq's in their primes. The only other player within the same solar system as those three during this quarter century is Duncan.

Considering he's led his teams to seven straight NBA Finals with a decade of all-time level performance, I can't see the argument that he's a modern version of Anthony Mason only with extra "stat-padding" that doesn't count on account of it being from extra efficiency and unmatched on-court dominance on both ends.

I did comment on your Skip Bayless tier argument in both posts. air gordon already took it as seriously at it needed to be considering it's based around highlight clips. Please reread, revise and resubmit, thanks.

[Dee4Three]

I think you can absolutely stat pad your defense. I've stated the way he pumped up his offensive stats by the way he plays defense as well. Just watching him play defense is all you need to do.

And by the way, don't be a tool Air Gordon. if there is anybody who is best at not answering questions, it's probably you. Numerous times you will ask questions, and someone will answer and ask an additional question, which you turn into another question instead of answering.

What are your thoughts on LeBron's defense the last few years, specifically his effort? What do you think about his own teammates accusing him of stat padding, and commentators also noticing it and mentioning it (In the NBA Finals)? What are your thoughts about him taking the worst player on the opposing team each night this season? What are your thoughts about Shadowgrin stating Jordan only took Payton in the 4th or at the end of quarters when he was tired out, when in reality Jordan started 3 of the 6 finals games on Payton right at the start of the game? What do you think of NovU calling me biased and blinded by hate, when he could certainly be being biased himself with his comments about LeBron?

Yes, the videos are there for your enjoyment. Hopefully you watched them all.

[Dee4Three]

Rondo is another example of someone who stat padded his defense. Rondo was always an overrated defender, in my opinion.

Also, I never said LeBron was a shit defender. I said he was an overrated defender, I believe he has been his whole career. I stated that he is taking basically the worst player on every team every night now, that is not inaccurate. I stated that I was impressed with Jordan through the ages of 38-40 taking some of the best players in the league, that's also not innacurate.

You Lebron fans... are you going to be alright? Be realistic about who he is as a defender today, and how he's been exploited in the past (sometimes in the biggest moments in the playoffs). It's okay to admit that the man has flaws, and it's okay for someone (me) to not only consider him overrated, but not the best player in the world.

It will be okay guys.

[air gordon]

I think you can absolutely stat pad your defense. I've stated the way he pumped up his offensive stats by the way he plays defense as well. Just watching him play defense is all you need to do.

And by the way, don't be a tool Air Gordon. if there is anybody who is best at not answering questions, it's probably you. Numerous times you will ask questions, and someone will answer and ask an additional question, which you turn into another question instead of answering.

What are your thoughts on LeBron's defense the last few years, specifically his effort? What do you think about his own teammates accusing him of stat padding, and commentators also noticing it and mentioning it (In the NBA Finals)? What are your thoughts about him taking the worst player on the opposing team each night this season? What are your thoughts about Shadowgrin stating Jordan only took Payton in the 4th or at the end of quarters when he was tired out, when in reality Jordan started 3 of the 6 finals games on Payton right at the start of the game? What do you think of NovU calling me biased and blinded by hate, when he could certainly be being biased himself with his comments about LeBron?

Yes, the videos are there for your enjoyment. Hopefully you watched them all.

i'll do you a solid this time. i don't answer your questions because the discussion turns into a hyperbolic longwinded one man ego filled circle jerk. did the ball go in the basket? you respond with the Homer's Iliad plus some youtube vids.

i honestly don't give a shit about your mind blowing questions & thoughts or your happenings with other forum users. i posted in the thread because i thought andrew's comment of jordan being underrated was preposterous. its like we need to have a pre recorded message listing all of his great accomplishments to make sure he doesn't get shorthanded.

the forums have had this stuff come and go and quite honestly i should resist from even engaging. i should know better. i should just be like benji and go hibernate.

[Dee4Three]

Well it was a pleasure to have you join the discussion, even if it was just briefly.

You are welcome any time.

[hova-]

Well it was a pleasure to have you join the discussion, even if it was just briefly.

You are welcome any time.

Some of your comments are liking spitting from the top of an ivory tower. I don't like it at all.

[Dee4Three]

Well it was a pleasure to have you join the discussion, even if it was just briefly.

You are welcome any time.

Some of your comments are liking spitting from the top of an ivory tower. I don't like it at all.

Nobody said you had to like my comments, and if I am treated a certain way I will also deal out some of my own sarcasm/remarks.

[Jackal]

You're not really dealing out sarcasm or remarks though, you're just coming off as someone who likes the smell of their own farts so much they have to thank others for farting around him but subtly try to remind them that yours ultimately smells better.

But I don't care enough to be bothered so carry on.