NBA 2K18 - Gameplay Discussion

[Dee4Three]

So, we've identified some of the most pressing gameplay issues this year. Since we are compiling the Wishlist at the moment, what are some specific suggestions and solutions that we can offer?

Ways to improve atmosphere without hurting FPS:

1. Improve arena lighting, while keeping the crowd animations mostly the same.
2. Enhance court chatter, it brings life to the on floor action.
3. Have the crowd react more to big plays/dunks. Like, if a player makes a basket and foul while being hit, a slightly more boisterous reaction. When I say this, I'm not saying make the crowd jump out of seats, I mean more the sound effects of the crowd enhanced.
4. Players body types looking more like athletes, it absolutely improves the visual appeal.

Ways to improve defense:

1. Find the happy medium between brick wall defense and blow by defense. Make the attributes matter. This may mean tweaking the motion system to the point where you can be stopped when running in a straight line, but when stopped it doesn't create a long stagger. Maybe it makes your offensive player backup a tad, or something along those lines. Getting the defender on your side should happen sometimes, but not every time.

2. Stop making the defenders off the ball stick to one guy (Assignment) only. It's why we lack the help defense that happens in real life. Somehow make the AI smart enough to react to bodies moving towards the basket (Help). Not sure how that would be implemented, but it's a must. 2K was able to do that with past gen 2k's, so I don't see why they can't with this gen.

3. Stop forcing us into foul animations when we don't hit the steal button, or jump button. It's really frustrating to lose control like that. I get being penalized when someone is driving if we mash the steal button and we actually foul the guy, but not if we don't push a button at all. This was also a major problem with NBA 2K17.

Ways to improve offense:

1. Fix the motion system, and I mean... I almost think it should be scrapped. The skating is horrible, it doesn't feel like you are moving around with real basketball players. You need to implement real foot planting without making the players feel heavy (Which you succeeded with on NBA 2K17... until the patches after December 2016 ruined that). It's been achieved in the past, so you can do it again. With the new skating system, all the players kind of blend in together on the court, it looks messy and feels messy. So, implement foot planting without creating heavy players.

2. Because of the new motion system (Where EVERYTHING feels super sped up), jump shots and shooting in general feels unrealistic. Players elevate oddly. Get back to the shooting mechanics in 2K17 where you could enjoy going up for a shot with a player, enjoy the feel and look of the full motion.

3. The sizeups are unrealistically fast, they look ridiculous. Slow the sizeups down to a realistic pace, all you have to do is watch video of players isolating, and slow the animations down to that level. As simple as that sounds, that's really all it is. Create a difference between players like Lenny Wilkens and Allen Iverson, so many players at the guard position have the same dribbling/dribbling speed capabilities. Create some separation.

4. Get back to making the game authentic with the players, instead of everybody blending in together. It's a big turnoff as a user when I go into a game, and I can do so many things with a player that I shouldn't be able to do (Like blow by Leonard with Ariza every single time). Lets get back to that authentic NBA action with players playing like themselves. This goes with some of the points above, whether it be shooting forms looking and feeling right, ball handling, etc.

5. Get rid of the excessive animations passing the ball. In real life, NBA Players whip the ball around the perimeter, they don't stumble all over the place. Rarely will you see NBA players stumble making or receiving a pass.

Misc ways to improve the overall experience:

1. Vastly improve the CPU's smarts on offense. Players in real life don't take step back or off balance shots when they are wide open, NBA players do not routinely hit the bottom of the rim shooting under the basket, NBA players do not go up on 2 or 3 people all the time when they are near the basket. Mix the CPU's AI with finding the open man, but also isolating at times.

2. Body blocks/Body steals and clipping have got to go, or atleast be nerfed. Throwing an upfake is almost a moot point because the defender will still block the shot with there stomach or something. Body steals and body blocks RARELY ever happen in the NBA, but they happen all the time in NBA 2K the last couple years. Find a way to create a better barrier between bodies so people are not going through eachother, and the ball isn't hitting everything and being jarred all the time. Find a way to make the players hands on the ball actually matter, not like they are 5 years old and don't know how to/incapable of gripping a ball firmly.

3. Respect retro: The classic teams are so rushed... between copy and paste ratings, recycled faces, incomplete faces, faces that were updated that look horrible (Bird, Drexler), etc. Kareem being listed as 28 on the all time lakers, but looking 40, Kobe looking nothing like his primed self (Even though a haired Kobe DOES exist in the files..), you guys using the wrong Jerry Stackhouse face (looks nothing like him), the Kobe in 03-04 looking nothing like himself, etc etc. I could go on and on. The person who does the rosters rushes, and does not do a good job creating a realistic experience. The shooting forms are off most of the time, the attributes look copy and paste. For a company this big, you couldn't do better? How many people do you have working on rosters? I mean, I'd volunteer to help with the classic teams just so they get the respect they deserve. It seems that 2K is focused on the wrong things, or it makes updates to things that really don't need updating (and sometimes messing that up) while not improving on or working on the important things. The on court action is the most important thing, lets get back to that as the #1 priority.

4. The ball physics/backboard physics have gotten a lot worse in NBA 2K18. The ball bounces off the backboard hard even when the ball is put up soft, so many misses around the hoop that shouldn't happen. Go back to the ball physics of NBA 2K16 and 2K17, it was a lot more realistic.

I guess that's it for now, I'll add more if I can think of more items.

[StyxTx]

Ahh, gotcha. I see what you were getting at.

I'd rather have a sit still crowd with good lighting, than a sit still crowd with unrealistically dark lighting. They achieved that in NBA 2K17, and the FPS was perfectly fine. I don't see anybody stating that 2K18 is working better than 2K17 for them. So it's interesting.

I felt the lighting in 2K17 was a step in the right direction.

2k has a long history of breaking things that were working fine. Never have figured out why they insist on doing that.

[Uncle Drew]

The defense is putrid. Every CPU player that shoots behind a screen scores, it ain't even funny no more. No weakside defensive help whatsoever. It's too easy to get by the defender for a layup. All bigs aren't clumsy, and can't hang on to the ball. They are in 2K18. As soon as you pass the ball to a player in the post, if you don't shoot or pass, it's a 3 second violation, that seems more like 1 second. And the blown layups are ridiculous especially when the CPU makes them.

[Dee4Three]

my brother and I played a couple games yesterday, this game is dead to me.

A few things to add to my complaints/wishlist:

1. The CPU is really, really dumb. 99% of the time they are literally just running a play, and disregarding anything else that is happening on the floor. You can back off of a good three point shooter, and he will just stand there dribbling watching players come off screens, he will hardly ever shoot. And instead of finding an open man, he will pass to the person who the play is for (if he comes off the screen and isn't entirely open, he will pass it to him anyway because hes who the play is for, even though he is open himself to shoot, and he has someone else open on the floor). Playing the CPU offers no realism whatsoever.

2. Animations feel incomplete and rushed, shots at the rim are laughable and unrealistic. Some of the animations look like something out of the Playstation 1 era. You will push the shoot button within 15 feet of the basket, and your offensive player will rifle a shot at the rim that clanks off the backboard hard and off the front of the rim (It doesn't look like a floater or a shot, it's something odd in between. The skating and stumbling is just the icing on the cake.

3. The balloons are one of the most unrealistic, silly ideas ever. 2K should be ashamed of themselves for implementing those balloons (the falling ones into the crowd, the white and red ones) and the screen shaking when the crowd stamps the bleachers. So, instead of working on the lighting, or the court chatter, or making the players look more like athletes, you add ridiculous/unrealistic things like those? Is anybody else as frustrated and pissed as I am about this?

4. The players look like clay, and look silly. Close ups don't even look good, because of the players body types and textures that completely make you forget about how good some of the cyberfaces are.

5. Players running down the floor (Dribbling or not) and suddenly slowing down for no reason, and speeding up again. Broken speed in this game happens a lot, and for no reason.

I played 2K15 for a couple hours last night a well, what a huge step back. 2K15's gameplay felt much more authentic. What a major step back.....

Anybody else worried about the gameplay direction for 2K19?

[Andrew]

The focus on the NBA 2K League does have me feeling a little concerned that that's where the priority is going to be moving forward, rather than the general user base. Perhaps that's a bit of paranoid pessimism, but it does feel like a possibility.

I completely agree about the balloons. The camera shaking when the crowd is raucous isn't a great idea, either. I think it's OK for free throws - and even there, we have an option to turn it off - but it's overkill to add it to other gameplay situations.

[Dmayne]

@d43, i agree with everything you said in your last post. the players need to react instead of just running their scripted plays slowly... kind of a let down to see this in 2k18.
at this point i would feel better if you were in charge of 2k19~ gameplay instead of the current 2k team we have now. maybe you should contact 2k with your ideas and try to fix this mess for us?

not to get sidetracked but not only do we have to deal with the medicore gameplay, also simple updates from 2k that don't work with older rosters? simple things like this being broke for 2 years now?
it makes me wonder for the future of this game... we all hope for a major gameplay/graphics/texture improvement for 2k19, but let's be honest... why would they put the extra time in?
just copy paste 2k18, change the logos to 2k19, add in a anti-trump my player story with low vc gains to get you to spend money on more vc, update roster, pay money for good reviews, and done.

[bongo88]

I'm not gonna participate much in this thread. just casually glanced at it. Of course, i do like 2k18. I don't play Online Myplayer, just my league and mygm. regardless,

5. Shooting - Shooting has a "Gumby" feel to it in this game, it doesn't flow. Animations seem faster, rushed, and less realistic. This also seems to be tied into the new motion system.

I actually thought the default game was too slow animation and shooting wise, lol. i turned up game speed to 67, i believe. haha. I'm probably the only person who's done that. Of course i also tweaked the other movement sliders, so who knows what animation baseline i'm running now anyways.

not my video, looking at crowd atmosphere specifically:

phpBB [video]

somebody pointed out the 2k18 crows was more lively than the real- life crowd. haha
now, the lighting/graphics, motion, etc etc can be analyzed (for good or bad), but i prefer a more lively crowd than a zombie, crowd that only uses 1 synced animation for every 18,000 people in attendance. Not sure exactly what you expect 2k to do crowd wise- more than they have done. the video is to showcase crowd in 2k18. again, whether or not it is perfect, not sure exactly what more 2k can do. If you just want to highlight that the crowd is darker than the real life, then that is indeed true.

Anybody else worried about the gameplay direction for 2K19?

I'm concerned about gaming in the future. the micro transactions screw ups of battlefield, destiny 2, 2k18,forza 7, anthem (rumors), call of duty, middle earth: shadow of war. Not to mention the insanity of mobile/smartphone gaming lootboxes.
The publishers are just following the trends because people are buying lootboxes. Gaming has come mainstream and is no longer just the stereotypes of pc nerds of the 80/90s and the 12 year old console brats.
2k seems committed to the new motion system. Maybe in 3 or 4 years they will have it polished. But, by then, will micro transactions may completely overtake the whole game (pay extra for the newest team my city Jerseys!!!! 50% off!!! can be used offline as well as online!!!!).

Overall, there's a sloppiness to the gameplay that detracts from the fun and enjoyment this year. It really does seem like more time was spent on figuring out how to implement more microtransactions and build the game for the new NBA 2K League, rather than polish the game and address the myriad of legacy issues. The new motion engine, while it does have its benefits, feels unfinished. The most polished elements of NBA 2K18 are the systems that result in "recurrent revenue", and I think that's very telling.

This is the perfect summary of the current state of general gaming. not just 2k18 but lots of other games and genres of games. Because people are absolutely devouring micro transactions, then that shows in the development cycle. I've never bought a microtransactions for any game, but it seems that lots and lots of people buy them. If the future development of gaming contines like this, myself, i'm just gonna pick up a new hobby. wood working has always interested me. In the end, gaming is just entertainment. and i can entertain myself in other ways.
anyways, have a nice day y'all.

edit: just saw this on my rss feed. forgot to include tf2 and csgo about the micro transactions. $61,000 for a csgo skin. enjoy: http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-dragon-lore ... han-61000/

[Dee4Three]

I'm not gonna participate much in this thread. just casually glanced at it. Of course, i do like 2k18. I don't play Online Myplayer, just my league and mygm. regardless,

5. Shooting - Shooting has a "Gumby" feel to it in this game, it doesn't flow. Animations seem faster, rushed, and less realistic. This also seems to be tied into the new motion system.

I actually thought the default game was too slow animation and shooting wise, lol. i turned up game speed to 67, i believe. haha. I'm probably the only person who's done that. Of course i also tweaked the other movement sliders, so who knows what animation baseline i'm running now anyways.

not my video, looking at crowd atmosphere specifically:

phpBB [video]

somebody pointed out the 2k18 crows was more lively than the real- life crowd. haha
now, the lighting/graphics, motion, etc etc can be analyzed (for good or bad), but i prefer a more lively crowd than a zombie, crowd that only uses 1 synced animation for every 18,000 people in attendance. Not sure exactly what you expect 2k to do crowd wise- more than they have done. the video is to showcase crowd in 2k18. again, whether or not it is perfect, not sure exactly what more 2k can do. If you just want to highlight that the crowd is darker than the real life, then that is indeed true.

Anybody else worried about the gameplay direction for 2K19?

I'm concerned about gaming in the future. the micro transactions screw ups of battlefield, destiny 2, 2k18,forza 7, anthem (rumors), call of duty, middle earth: shadow of war. Not to mention the insanity of mobile/smartphone gaming lootboxes.
The publishers are just following the trends because people are buying lootboxes. Gaming has come mainstream and is no longer just the stereotypes of pc nerds of the 80/90s and the 12 year old console brats.
2k seems committed to the new motion system. Maybe in 3 or 4 years they will have it polished. But, by then, will micro transactions may completely overtake the whole game (pay extra for the newest team my city Jerseys!!!! 50% off!!! can be used offline as well as online!!!!).

Overall, there's a sloppiness to the gameplay that detracts from the fun and enjoyment this year. It really does seem like more time was spent on figuring out how to implement more microtransactions and build the game for the new NBA 2K League, rather than polish the game and address the myriad of legacy issues. The new motion engine, while it does have its benefits, feels unfinished. The most polished elements of NBA 2K18 are the systems that result in "recurrent revenue", and I think that's very telling.

This is the perfect summary of the current state of general gaming. not just 2k18 but lots of other games and genres of games. Because people are absolutely devouring micro transactions, then that shows in the development cycle. I've never bought a microtransactions for any game, but it seems that lots and lots of people buy them. If the future development of gaming contines like this, myself, i'm just gonna pick up a new hobby. wood working has always interested me. In the end, gaming is just entertainment. and i can entertain myself in other ways.
anyways, have a nice day y'all.

edit: just saw this on my rss feed. forgot to include tf2 and csgo about the micro transactions. $61,000 for a csgo skin. enjoy: http://www.pcgamer.com/csgo-dragon-lore ... han-61000/

Thanks for your input.

The lighting in the video comparison is an example of what I am talking about actually. The lighting on 2K18 is too dark and the graphics look overall dead. The comparison is video from 2K18 is a promo video made by Shady who does videos for 2K (He did the intro video from 2K17), and the crowd reactions on last second shots are very good in both 2K17 and 2K18. I was talking about the overall lack of sound or reaction during the game. The game feels, looks, and sounds dead in my opinion. Watch the crowd and listen during the actual game (Not just a last second shot). I never contested the crowd reactions to daggers (last second shots)

Example of lighting on 2K18 and in real life

76ers at home in real life, and in 2K18. Also, keep in mind that the NBA game isn't even in it's highest quality, and it's still much brighter.

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

Blazers at home in the game and in real life.... it's not even close.

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

Now look at the lighting in NBA 2K17. Look at the difference. Yes, the colors are slightly off, but the arena feels alive, the game looks alive. The gameplay on most stadiums for 2K17 )Minus the classic teams) is almost what it would look like lighting wise if you were physically at the game. I don't even know what NBA 2K18 is supposed to look like.

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

It's obvious that the lighting is far to dark in comparison to real life. The game is not only missing reflections, but it's missing a shader or two it seems, and they made the arenas and floor so dark.... nobody can say that is close.

In regards to shooting, it just doesn't feel right. And some of that might have to do with the new motion system. It also doesn't look smooth to me on a lot of players shots. And, you clearly did more than glance at the thread, and that's a good thing. More gameplay discussion is an absolute must.

Glad you like the game, but I'm also glad that you are concerned with the future of gaming. More people need to speak up about said concerns.

I also want to note, and I've stated this prior. I can handle graphical flaws, and some atmosphere flaws, as long as the gameplay is good. This isn't the case to me with 2K18. 2K15 had iffy atmosphere and unrealistic lighting, but I like 2K15. I like the gameplay.

My biggest complaint with the game is the skating of the players. Second biggest is the blow by defense. Watch the players moving around (and feel it when you are using players), and watch when players move around in real life. 2K18 looks crazy, and it feels crazy to me. Because of the lack of any foot planting, the game feels chaotic and doesn't resemble real life. It's a basketball simulation, meaning they are trying to get as close to the real thing as possible. They didn't even get close in 2K18.

[StyxTx]

not to get sidetracked but not only do we have to deal with the medicore gameplay, also simple updates from 2k that don't work with older rosters? simple things like this being broke for 2 years now?
it makes me wonder for the future of this game... we all hope for a major gameplay/graphics/texture improvement for 2k19, but let's be honest... why would they put the extra time in?
just copy paste 2k18, change the logos to 2k19, add in a anti-trump my player story with low vc gains to get you to spend money on more vc, update roster, pay money for good reviews, and done.

I like that!

[sticky-fingers]

About lighting : the more hilarious thing is that on TV cam, 2K18 is closer to reality than 2K17.

But 2K18 has a slight grey fog and is a too dark specially after the first crowd rows. 2K17 is too bright everywhere, to cartoony (you're welcome Andrew )

About the crowd atmosphere, both games are pretty dead comparing to old gen, there isnt a big difference between 2K17 and 2K18.
And in fact I also think it's pretty close to the real NBA ; in regular season, NBA crowd is pretty dead. i dont really appreciate Euroleague, or Euro Basketball, but NBA atmoshpere is dead in comparison.

There's a lot of talk about 2K15, i played it again just before 2K18 release. I have the feeling that 2K18 is some kind of 2K15 reboot : dark stadiums, cameras'angles etc...

[Dee4Three]

[ Image ]

About lighting : the more hilarious thing is that on TV cam, 2K18 is closer to reality than 2K17.
[ Image ]
But 2K18 has a slight grey fog and is a too dark specially after the first crowd rows. 2K17 is too bright everywhere, to cartoony (you're welcome Andrew )

About the crowd atmosphere, both games are pretty dead comparing to old gen, there isnt a big difference between 2K17 and 2K18.
And in fact I also think it's pretty close to the real NBA ; in regular season, NBA crowd is pretty dead. i dont really appreciate Euroleague, or Euro Basketball, but NBA atmoshpere is dead in comparison.

There's a lot of talk about 2K15, i played it again just before 2K18 release. I have the feeling that 2K18 is some kind of 2K15 reboot : dark stadiums, cameras'angles etc...

Yes. We are talking about lighting. I brought up a ton of gameplay points, and even stated that I could deal with it as long as the gameplay was sound.

And I don't think 2K18 is closer to real life.

And I talked about lighting again because it was brought up by Bongo.

I never said that 2K17 crowd was stellar, I said the lighting was better giving the game a more lively look.

The point stands, NBA 2K18 is far too dark, unrealistically dark, the atmosphere sucks. NBA 2k15 had better textures in my opinion, and far better gameplay (not even close in my opinion). The game also looked better to me.

[Dee4Three]

@d43, i agree with everything you said in your last post. the players need to react instead of just running their scripted plays slowly... kind of a let down to see this in 2k18.
at this point i would feel better if you were in charge of 2k19~ gameplay instead of the current 2k team we have now. maybe you should contact 2k with your ideas and try to fix this mess for us?

Thank you! I wish my input actually accomplished something. With how much I disagree with the direction, I doubt that anybody from 2K would want me helping out with 2K19. In fact, I have been very critical of 2K on these forums, they would probably see me as a negative addition to the team.

With that being said, I keep posting on here hoping someone from 2K/Visual Concepts sees the feedback. But, I am only one person. I just want to know who at 2K allowed the balloons, camera shake, etc be placed into the game, and which of the staff actually approved that... I mean... it doesn't resemble a real basketball experience with those two part implemented, they make no sense. I'd like to know who chose the arena/floor lighting, because in no way does it resemble a broadcast or a "at game" look. I'd like to know who got all jazzed up about (and bragged about) the new motion system, and how this motion system made it into production, even though the players are clearly skating all over the place and out of control. I'd like to know who decided on the clay looking body types, and how those body types actually made it into production. I'd like to know how a company feels good about promoting not only the new motion system, but boasting new defense mechanics, while releasing a product that has nothing of the sort, and some of the worst defense (Especially one on one) in NBA video game history. Id also like to know who does the rosters (I think he was on one of the video sit downs that Andrew shared), because frankly he does a terrible job. Not only is copy/paste rampant amongst players, but he knows little to nothing about the classic NBA teams, and he makes numerous mistakes (Forgetting badges, making players all over the league get 0 blocks and like 1 steal for a whole season, etc), I'd like to know how the last few years these mistakes make it into the final release. I'd like to know why 2K will disrespect the classic teams by adding faces that are not even close to the real life counterpart, or completely disregarding year specific faces (numerous examples of this). I'd like to know who created large heads throughout the entire roster, I'd like to know who let this through to the final product. I'd like to know who butchered the authenticity of the series, making all the players seemingly blend in together on the court (Oh, you mean I can drive to the hoop with Michael Kidd-Gilchrist on Kawhi Leonard and score over 100 points in a game? who would have thought). I'd like to know who decided that all the stumbling animations were a good idea, disregarding the fact that real NBA players can catch most passes/make most passes without stumbling at all. I'd like to know who allowed body steals/body blocks to happen so often, and floaty passes (past two 2k's), disregarding the fact that NBA Players learn from a very young age that one of the most important things is to hang onto the ball tight, and secure. I'd like to know why 2K boasted a smarter AI, when they are actually one of the worst in 2K history (They do not react to the surroundings hardly at all, it looks and feels scripted). I'd like to know who allowed the ball physics to take such a major step backwards, and who approved all the hard off the backboard misses right under the hoop (And who approved the constant hitting the bottom of the rim with shots under the hoop). I'd like to know who continues to approve of and implement the VC take-over, and who could possibly think that this is a way to retain the user base, or gain new followers of the series.

2K is focused on mostly the wrong things, and its really disappointing/frustrating.

[bongo88]

And I talked about lighting again because it was brought up by Bongo.
I never said that 2K17 crowd was stellar, I said the lighting was better giving the game a more lively look.
The point stands, NBA 2K18 is far too dark, unrealistically dark, the atmosphere sucks.

Haha, i'm always de-railing topics lool Your critique makes more sense now. i do agree with you on these points. The lighting was better in 2k17, and 2k18 is a tad dark. It also amazing me how lighting in 2k18 varies from stadium to stadium, and yet many or just slightly off. Personally, it'd be cool if they had a lighting gradient slider or something when it comes to lighting. options to turn off led's/change stadium led colors, overall darkness/shader lighting, etc etc. i guess we can turn off floor reflections I do that sometimes, just to psych myself out
The lighting being slightly off reminds me of how the default basketball is just slightly off. everybody in the world knows what an nba basketball color looks like, but 2k has it slightly darker. It's almost like nba tells 2k to not make it perfectly on color or something. I mean, the game revolves around the basketball, and 2k comes out with a brownish color basketball? strange. also some jerseys (cavs mostly) are just slightly off, too. especially when true rgb can be pulled from a simple photograph.

With that being said, I keep posting on here hoping someone from 2K/Visual Concepts sees the feedback. .....I'd like to know who continues to approve of and implement the VC take-over, and who could possibly think that this is a way to retain the user base, or gain new followers of the series.
2K is focused on mostly the wrong things, and its really disappointing/frustrating.

This is a very good post. and i agree. (didn't want to quote the whole thing and clog up the forum) but the whole post is spot on. I'm glad for 2k18 & 2k17 for the mods and 2 different flavors of gameplay, and mostly because the future of 2k, for me, seams to be headed in bad direction. i'll be hanging out on 2k17/2k18 for a long time, personally.

Anyways, sorry for diverting the thread, lol. Back on topic everybody, haha
Have a good day.

[Dee4Three]

And I talked about lighting again because it was brought up by Bongo.
I never said that 2K17 crowd was stellar, I said the lighting was better giving the game a more lively look.
The point stands, NBA 2K18 is far too dark, unrealistically dark, the atmosphere sucks.

Haha, i'm always de-railing topics lool Your critique makes more sense now. i do agree with you on these points. The lighting was better in 2k17, and 2k18 is a tad dark. It also amazing me how lighting in 2k18 varies from stadium to stadium, and yet many or just slightly off. Personally, it'd be cool if they had a lighting gradient slider or something when it comes to lighting. options to turn off led's/change stadium led colors, overall darkness/shader lighting, etc etc. i guess we can turn off floor reflections I do that sometimes, just to psych myself out
The lighting being slightly off reminds me of how the default basketball is just slightly off. everybody in the world knows what an nba basketball color looks like, but 2k has it slightly darker. It's almost like nba tells 2k to not make it perfectly on color or something. I mean, the game revolves around the basketball, and 2k comes out with a brownish color basketball? strange.

With that being said, I keep posting on here hoping someone from 2K/Visual Concepts sees the feedback. .....I'd like to know who continues to approve of and implement the VC take-over, and who could possibly think that this is a way to retain the user base, or gain new followers of the series.
2K is focused on mostly the wrong things, and its really disappointing/frustrating.

This is a very good post. and i agree. (didn't want to quote the whole thing and clog up the forum) but the whole post is spot on. I'm glad for 2k18 & 2k17 for the mods and 2 different flavors of gameplay, and mostly because the future of 2k, for me, seams to be headed in bad direction. i'll be hanging out on 2k17/2k18 for a long time, personally.

Anyways, sorry for diverting the thread, lol. Back on topic everybody, haha
Have a good day.

No worries, thanks for your input (and you scoreboards, ha)

[bongo88]

No worries, thanks for your input (and you scoreboards, ha)

ooooh, to de-rail the topic again, lol. scoreboards. anyways, i use hex editing for scoreboards, mostly because blender and me produce, well, ugly scoreboards and ugly faces haha. anyways, i've released my hex editing scoreboard info, but the process is very tedious. but it'd be nice if looyh could produce a tutorial about his blender scoreboard method. he does amazing stuff with a blender method, i just never got good at it, lol. anyways, if y'all ask him, maybe he'll make a tutorial.

bah, now, back on topic everybody, lol

[Dee4Three]

Note: Some of the issues I mentioned were also in 2K17, Like: Body blocks/body steals, slow/lobbed passes, roster issues, poor AI defense. The difference however is not only did they not improve on any of the 2K17 issues, they created more issues for 2K18.

[Andrew]

In terms of areas of focus for NBA 2K19, I've covered that in this week's Friday Five: http://www.nba-live.com/tff-5-things-nba-2k19-needs/

We've got the Wishlist topic we need to be making better use of in general so we can send in a comprehensive list of ideas, but I'd like to keep identifying gameplay issues and suggesting solutions in here as well, to continue the productive discussion we've been having.

SHOOTING

I'm going to bring up this video again:

phpBB [video]

The gist of it is, this year there's a 50% chance that a Perfect/Excellent release will be Green, which is an automatic basket. The other 50% of the time, it becomes a Good release, which has a 5% chance of being made. This essentially gives you a 55% chance of making the shot, because 100% of the Green releases (which happen 50% of the time) will go in, while only 5% of the White releases (or let's say full bar/Good releases, since you can change the colour this year) will be successful. Badges will affect the percentages on non-Green releases. Early and Late releases

This has been done to curb cheesy shooting, by ensuring that players aren't regularly shooting 70-80% (especially on threes) by mastering the timing. There's basically a dice roll so that you can't always hit Green. A good idea, but I don't think it's worked out well in practice.

For a start, online players are still shooting really high percentages once they master their timing, with the help of Badges, hot zones, and perfectly tuned custom jumpshots. At the same time, it also feels like the Good to Excellent/Perfect ratio isn't exactly 50-50. Furthermore, dropping the make percentage to 5% on what is essentially a nerfed Excellent release (or very close to it) is conceptually flawed. Slightly Early and Slightly Late releases still feel safer than aiming for the best release possible, and that's not right.

My suggestion would be to adopt a system similar to NBA 2K17, but leave out the stick aiming bonus that was definitely making things too easy. Make it difficult to get a Green release for a guaranteed basket without precise timing on the button/stick, but give Good releases a better percentage, ideally scaling with the player's ratings. A player with good three-point ratings who has ten attempts with Good releases should probably knock down around 50% of them, maybe around 75% when wide open and with Badges that boost the odds. Likewise, defense (and defensive Badges) should affect percentages as well.

BADGES

Speaking of Badges, the main problem is that they're too vital to performing basic plays. In NBA 2K18, it feels like you can't even throw easy alley-oops with good passers and have them caught by good finishers, unless the players have Lob City Passer and Lob City Finisher Badges. Even then, too many easy lobs go awry, even though the timing and the angle should result in a high rate of success.

As I've mentioned, there's a Catch-22 at work here when it comes to MyCAREER and the connected experience. To be successful, you need to get Badges. To get the Badges, you need to succeed at doing what it is they help you to do. Sticking with the same example as above, to throw or catch alley-oops with any kind of accuracy, even really easy ones, you need to to have the Lob City Passer or Lob City Finisher Badge. To get the Lob City Passer or Lob City Finisher Badges, you need to successfully complete a lot of alley-oops as either the passer or the recipient. Add in the XP requirements, and it is a grrrriiiiiiiiinnnnnd.

My suggestion would be to make the Badges a little less significant when trying to make the simple play. The Badges should help and enhance the ability, but not be the ability. Another good example of this is Free Throw Ace, which has replaced the free throw rating for MyPLAYERs. That one's an even worse idea, especially with how long it takes to grind for Badges. Badges should provide small boosts and corrections/compensations, particularly on shooting. A lot of this does revolve around MyCAREER, but it goes for the implementation and effect of Badges in general, too.

CAMERAS

This one's another MyCAREER/connected modes-specific one, but there's a really strange design choice this year with the free shootarounds in 2K Pro-Am, team practice, and pre-game. Instead of using a fixed camera as in a MyCOURT shootaround, or regular gameplay, it utilises the camera and interface from The Neighborhood. This means that you can't jump for a rebound during shootaround (it brings up the menu), you're practising from an unfamiliar angle that doesn't match regular gameplay, and the controls just don't feel right as a result. It defeats the purpose of being able to practice in a free shootaround situation when it's so different from the regular experience. Also, who brings their phone onto the court with them?

CANNED MOMENTS

The addition of realistic elements such as fumbling passes, losing your balance and stumbling, and passes having bad aim, don't feel nearly as realistic when they seemingly happen at random. Those moments shouldn't happen "just because"; they should make sense in the context of the action, and according to the quality of your decision. A few examples...

• Risky passes should stand a chance at being intercepted. It feels fake if the pass goes directly to the defender without them having to move or make an effort, though. Good passers shouldn't have their passes picked off because the game has decided "this is going to be a turnover", and instead of the pass going where it should - even when using icon passing - it just conveniently goes straight to the defender.
  
  
• Reach-in fouls should be based on timing and whether or not your spamming the button, not random chance. Your player shouldn't start wildly hacking and grabbing at the ballhandler on a single press. A badly timed press may result in a foul if there's too much contact, but the canned fouls need to go.
  
  
• CPU players should not be able to make blind steals with regularity. AI players shouldn't all be able to play the passing lanes and pick of passes like MJ in his prime.
  
  
• Players with good ballhandling/passing and finishing/catching abilities shouldn't fail to connect on easy passes. If nothing else, plays with slick, well-timed passing shouldn't be ruined by players randomly bobbling passes or getting stuck in a stumbling animation, even though they catch the ball in stride. Despite assurances in pre-release blogs, players are getting stuck in animations, and screwed over by bad animation selection.

PHYSICS & MOTION

As I've said, I like the fluidity in NBA 2K18, but not the skating and looseness. I feel like it needs to be tightened up so that it's somewhere between NBA 2K17 and NBA 2K18 - precise like NBA 2K17, but responsive like NBA 2K18. That's how I'd sum up my desired result.

Players need to have a physical presence, especially outside the paint. No more blatantly dribbling through players and randomly having the body steal take place, or indeed, just allow it to happen as if the defender wasn't there. Contact with the ball on steals should knock it loose, while contact with the arm and body due to a badly timed press/spamming the steal button should be what determines a foul, not random chance and the aforementioned canned moments.

STRATEGY, AI, AND PLAYER DIFFERENTIATION

Despite the fact that this is an area of focus with guys like OG and Da_Czar heading up playcalling and AI, it feels like it got dumber in NBA 2K18. We've got players who shouldn't be taking threes launching from range, weird shot selection in general, and a lack of strategy that has been there in previous games. The AI players just don't feel as smart this year.

As noted, there needs to be more differentiation between player abilities and play styles. Not everyone can drive into the paint with ease, not everyone steps back to take a three, and some ratings just seem really off. It feels like overall ratings have become higher over the years, perhaps to avoid causing offense to players who are themselves now really into video games and vocal about it on social media, and that's probably led to some players being overrated. I think the ratings need more attention, players might need to be rated a little fairer (and harsher when appropriate), and there needs to be more work on having teams run the proper plays and players making smarter decisions, or at least having more awareness of what's going on. Again, this was something that was promised in the blogs, but it feels like it's been the opposite.

I'd also agree that help defense needs to be quicker and smarter, and there should be better balance between players being able to blow by their defenders and having their drive cut off.

I'm sure there's more to add, but I feel those are some of the most pressing issues, and desirable solutions and direction.

[sticky-fingers]

Great post, but it also summarizes NBA2K franchise main problem : too many modes, and all of them are unfinished.
For Shooting, as an offline player, i'm alright with the shooting dice of 2K18.
But I understand that an online player will try to improve his shooting success by using all the tricks.
How can 2K satisfy both sides ? Is it possible ? Is the gameplay should be the same between online and offline modes ?


About STRATEGY, AI, AND PLAYER DIFFERENTIATION :

I'm totally agree about that some movements and skills should be limited to fewer players.

Offense :
- the biggest problem this year is when CPU with some players will keep the ball 'till the end of the 24sec, without moving, and try an awful shoot. It happens regularly with the same players, so I guess it's related to players attributes.
- game plan : all the teams have the same

Defense
- individual CPU defense : 2K should find the good mix between brick wall defense (pre 2k18) and everyone can drive to the basket (2K18).
- help defense : it seems that 2K forgot to activate some options on CPU side, never adjust the strategy, never trap a hot player. On 2K18, I had shared this few months again, it helps, A LOT :

phpBB [video]

Again, unfinished business.

The saddest things in our verdicts, is that, year after year, 2K/VC seems to regress, to work as an indie developper, not in a project mode. And the final product dont really improve (to be kind).
There's ton of things that shouldnt be allowed to be released in production : partially broken sliders, disabled autodefense, big heads, (2K17) bodies ...
(re)Launch 2K9/10/11, there's so many times where you can say "why they drop that ?"
We talked previously on dead atmoshphere on 2K18 vs 2K17 ... but try 2K.... 9

phpBB [video]

[Andrew]

I don't know that I'd call the modes unfinished as such, because the depth is there (inevitable bugs aside). It's more the design choices, particularly the decision to go for flashy, gimmicky features over addressing core issues. As I said in my Friday Five article today, those flashy new gimmicks may dazzle us at first - if we find them appealing, of course - but after a while, the shine wears off and we're being frustrated by the problems that haven't been fixed.

I feel like NBA 2K19 should be about focusing on the core experience, and fixing and honing what's already in the game in terms of modes, instead of trying to innovate with a Big New Feature. I guess there needs to be something new, some kind of hook to sell the game beyond "it's better than last year", but it can't come at the expense of addressing long-standing issues.

Striking a good balance between online and offline play is certainly a challenge they'll have to figure out. I think NBA 2K17 worked pretty well in that regard, though. The main issue there was that right stick aiming provided too much of a boost, though I did like it for free throws.

[Daex]

The gist of it is, this year there's a 50% chance that a Perfect/Excellent release will be Green, which is an automatic basket. The other 50% of the time, it becomes a Good release, which has a 5% chance of being made. This essentially gives you a 55% chance of making the shot, because 100% of the Green releases (which happen 50% of the time) will go in, while only 5% of the White releases (or let's say full bar/Good releases, since you can change the colour this year) will be successful. Badges will affect the percentages on non-Green releases. Early and Late releases

This has been done to curb cheesy shooting, by ensuring that players aren't regularly shooting 70-80% (especially on threes) by mastering the timing. There's basically a dice roll so that you can't always hit Green. A good idea, but I don't think it's worked out well in practice.

For a start, online players are still shooting really high percentages once they master their timing, with the help of Badges, hot zones, and perfectly tuned custom jumpshots. At the same time, it also feels like the Good to Excellent/Perfect ratio isn't exactly 50-50. Furthermore, dropping the make percentage to 5% on what is essentially a nerfed Excellent release (or very close to it) is conceptually flawed. Slightly Early and Slightly Late releases still feel safer than aiming for the best release possible, and that's not right.

My suggestion would be to adopt a system similar to NBA 2K17, but leave out the stick aiming bonus that was definitely making things too easy. Make it difficult to get a Green release for a guaranteed basket without precise timing on the button/stick, but give Good releases a better percentage, ideally scaling with the player's ratings. A player with good three-point ratings who has ten attempts with Good releases should probably knock down around 50% of them, maybe around 75% when wide open and with Badges that boost the odds. Likewise, defense (and defensive Badges) should affect percentages as well.

I'm just going to copy my stuff from the other post I didn't notice this discussion.

Hi Andrew. I have trouble understanding why are you jumping on a bandwagon with incorrect facts about Good release. The issue at hand is recognized widely among people who actually understand how the system works to be visual only. Good releases are NOT worse than slightly late/early. It is NOT beneficial to aim for slightly early/late to reach higher %. The confusion stems from the fact that "Good" releases are more or less "Excellent" releases that game decided you will miss. Detailed analysis is provided by 2k Labs, where this is proven by the fact when you have absolutely perfect timing every single time, number of "Good" shots that will go in is 0. If you in fact try to aim for slightly early/late, you will hit significantly less shots than if you were aiming for good/perfect.

I honestly don't see how can anyone who understands the mechanic think that there is something wrong with it. If there weren't such mechanic in place, theoretically you could learn Ben Wallace's release perfectly and shoot 100% from 3pt line with him. Game prevents this, by saying on some of your "Excellent" shots - "Sorry, you can't hit all your 3pt shots" and tells you "Good".

The problem is in perception and communication, I personally believe best resolution is to remove "Excellent" release altogether (or "Good" ones, it's all the same). If all "Excellent" shots were simply called "Good" too, you wouldn't notice this perceived "problem".

Now there's a separate argument to be had about competitive skill floor/ceiling versus simulation, but I don't think outside of deeply competitive modes such as this e-league thing (and maybe not even there) that we will ever see all perfectly timed shots going in again.

[Andrew]

Hi Andrew. I have trouble understanding why are you jumping on a bandwagon with incorrect facts about Good release. The issue at hand is recognized widely among people who actually understand how the system works to be visual only. Good releases are NOT worse than slightly late/early. It is NOT beneficial to aim for slightly early/late to reach higher %. The confusion stems from the fact that "Good" releases are more or less "Excellent" releases that game decided you will miss. Detailed analysis is provided by 2k Labs, where this is proven by the fact when you have absolutely perfect timing every single time, number of "Good" shots that will go in is 0. If you in fact try to aim for slightly early/late, you will hit significantly less shots than if you were aiming for good/perfect.

I honestly don't see how can anyone who understands the mechanic think that there is something wrong with it. If there weren't such mechanic in place, theoretically you could learn Ben Wallace's release perfectly and shoot 100% from 3pt line with him. Game prevents this, by saying on some of your "Excellent" shots - "Sorry, you can't hit all your 3pt shots" and tells you "Good".

Indeed. That's why I quoted NBA2KLabs' findings in my post, and included the video. I understand the system, and why it's been done. I don't think it's the best approach to curb the cheese, at least as long as there is a Green release that hits 100% of the time.

[StyxTx]

I keep reading about the same issues from version to version that aren't being fixed. As I've said numerous times over the past few years, I firmly believe they don't know how to fix them. I haven't been impressed with 2k's basketball development team for quite some time.

[Dee4Three]

Great post, but it also summarizes NBA2K franchise main problem : too many modes, and all of them are unfinished.
For Shooting, as an offline player, i'm alright with the shooting dice of 2K18.
But I understand that an online player will try to improve his shooting success by using all the tricks.
How can 2K satisfy both sides ? Is it possible ? Is the gameplay should be the same between online and offline modes ?


About STRATEGY, AI, AND PLAYER DIFFERENTIATION :

I'm totally agree about that some movements and skills should be limited to fewer players.

Offense :
- the biggest problem this year is when CPU with some players will keep the ball 'till the end of the 24sec, without moving, and try an awful shoot. It happens regularly with the same players, so I guess it's related to players attributes.
- game plan : all the teams have the same

Defense
- individual CPU defense : 2K should find the good mix between brick wall defense (pre 2k18) and everyone can drive to the basket (2K18).
- help defense : it seems that 2K forgot to activate some options on CPU side, never adjust the strategy, never trap a hot player. On 2K18, I had shared this few months again, it helps, A LOT :

phpBB [video]

Again, unfinished business.

The saddest things in our verdicts, is that, year after year, 2K/VC seems to regress, to work as an indie developper, not in a project mode. And the final product dont really improve (to be kind).
There's ton of things that shouldnt be allowed to be released in production : partially broken sliders, disabled autodefense, big heads, (2K17) bodies ...
(re)Launch 2K9/10/11, there's so many times where you can say "why they drop that ?"
We talked previously on dead atmoshphere on 2K18 vs 2K17 ... but try 2K.... 9

phpBB [video]

You are being an apologist for them, and numerous times using the excuse that 2k has had certain issues for awhile, or that other games had issues as well. That's not a solution. The more apologists we have, the more 2K is encouraged to continue on this route. Example here:

The saddest things in our verdicts, is that, year after year, 2K/VC seems to regress, to work as an indie developper, not in a project mode. And the final product dont really improve (to be kind).
There's ton of things that shouldnt be allowed to be released in production : partially broken sliders, disabled autodefense, big heads, (2K17) bodies ...
(re)Launch 2K9/10/11, there's so many times where you can say "why they drop that ?"
We talked previously on dead atmoshphere on 2K18 vs 2K17 ... but try 2K.... 9

It's not a "Stop complaining about 2K18, because the games had issues prior, some even worse", it's "Lets talk about what we need to fix for NBA 2K19". The problems with NBA 2K18 have hardly anything to do with the modes or depth of modes, it is an elite title in regards to depth of modes (Talking about modes outside of the vc gauge of MC, but even that is a deep mode). The problem is with the core gameplay, the fact that the development team (And the production team) continue to implement silly things into the game instead of working on obvious/unrealistic gameplay issues, some of these issues which are completely gamebreaking.

Playing NBA 2K15 a lot the last couple days, that is the perfect combination for one on one defense. Body steals also don't happen nearly as much. I would like to see 2K19 go back to that type of defense. The beauty of that in 2K15 is if a weaker defender (or a big) is switched out onto you on the perimeter, you can break him down much easier than a Kawhi Leonard. But, if you are being guarded by Leonard, it's tough to break him down. The handles in that game are tighter, cross overs more pronounced. If I had to choose a direction for feel in NBA 2K19, I would make it closer to NBA 2K15. The defense in 2K15 is stronger than 2K17 as well.

The one on one defense is literally a game breaker in NBA 2K18, if a game has a gamebreaker for a gameplay issue.... that is a huge alarm. Forcing yourself to play sim is silly, because the whole point of a sports game is to compete, its a competition. I am not going to just not drive to the hoop because the game allows me to every time and I want the game to look more realistic.... think about that. Of course, the skating is a head scratcher and mind boggling in itself, the fact that the dev team implemented that when clearly visually it looks like a mess, it also feels like one.

Andrew:

The addition of realistic elements such as fumbling passes, losing your balance and stumbling, and passes having bad aim, don't feel nearly as realistic when they seemingly happen at random. Those moments shouldn't happen "just because"; they should make sense in the context of the action, and according to the quality of your decision. A few examples...
• Risky passes should stand a chance at being intercepted. It feels fake if the pass goes directly to the defender without them having to move or make an effort, though. Good passers shouldn't have their passes picked off because the game has decided "this is going to be a turnover", and instead of the pass going where it should - even when using icon passing - it just conveniently goes straight to the defender.

• Players with good ballhandling/passing and finishing/catching abilities shouldn't fail to connect on easy passes. If nothing else, plays with slick, well-timed passing shouldn't be ruined by players randomly bobbling passes or getting stuck in a stumbling animation, even though they catch the ball in stride. Despite assurances in pre-release blogs, players are getting stuck in animations, and screwed over by bad animation selection.

I talked about stumbling prior, and you nailed this right on the head in regards to passing. You will literally make a good entry pass to the post, and the ball will go right to the defenders outstretched hand, the game basically saying "This WILL be a turnover no matter what". It also happens with shot making... I understand momentum is a real thing in the NBA. But you will go almost entire quarters with hardly hitting a shot, even though you took the exact same shots for the most part in another quarter an shot 55% from the floor. This was also a HUGE problem in 2K17, and it still exists in NBA 2K18. The developers who deny that the system does these things are lying... that is my opinion.

Andrew:
As I've said, I like the fluidity in NBA 2K18, but not the skating and looseness. I feel like it needs to be tightened up so that it's somewhere between NBA 2K17 and NBA 2K18 - precise like NBA 2K17, but responsive like NBA 2K18. That's how I'd sum up my desired result.

This is where we have a difference in opinion. I do not agree that 2K18 is more fluid, in fact with all the stumbling and the way the players feel when they make moves, I would say that it's far less fluid feeling. The added animations to passing (over-exaggerating creating a delay) is also something that make it's less fluid. The way the CPU plays also hurts that aspect as well. When I think of fluid, I think of flow. How does it feel and how does it look. NBA 2K17 feels better on the controllers to me by a lot, so does 2K15. I don't consider the skating all around the court "Fluid", I consider that unrealistic and "chaotic". If NBA 2K17 had some input lag, or excessive passing animations, or more stumbling, I would agree with this statement. But, feel isn't even close in my opinion. Now, this is also subjective based on the users gameplay preference and style, or sometimes even the persons rig. I had a worse graphics card when NBA 2K15 came out, and the game had a bit of input lag, but when I upgraded my graphics card the game because 100% reactive and smooth.

That is not being an apologist for NBA 2K17, either. As I have harped on the many issues with that game as well. I'm just stating why I prefer the control of 2K17.

[Andrew]

Expanding on my previous remarks about the shooting. Again, I understand the approach. Perhaps the wording of my initial post wasn't clear, but I get why it's done. As I said though, I don't think it's the ideal approach.

Part of that is indeed the nomenclature they're using. It leads to unclear feedback about the attempt, and the mechanics in general. However, that certainly is a legitimate problem. Logically, a Good release should indicate an attempt that has a better chance than being slightly early or late on your timing, but not a guaranteed bucket, which is reserved for a Perfect/Excellent/Green release. That it's taken research to determine how the mechanics actually work and how it relates to the feedback isn't ideal. Nor is a 5% success rate on Good releases.

This is painfully apparent online, where lag makes Green releases even more difficult to achieve. Most well-timed releases online, in my experience, tend to end up being Good releases; that is to say, Excellent releases that the game has decided you'll very likely miss, in theory to keep percentages more realistic. The ratio of this is definitely not 50/50 in my experience, however, which means you can end up missing five straight wide open threes with a Good release (i.e. a wide open, well-timed release that the game has decided you've only got a 5% chance of making) with a high three-point rating. Even playing offline where Greens are a little easier, it feels a little false or canned, a way for the AI to screw you over to create artificial balance and challenge.

Again, I understand why it's done, but I don't think it's the right approach. Aside from returning to similar mechanics to NBA 2K17, there's the possibility of adopting a system similar to NBA Live 16, where the ideal release point provides the highest chance of making the basket (according to ratings, tendencies, and sliders), with the percentage falling the further you fall short of, or overshoot, the ideal release point. Badges and defensive pressure would also impact the percentages. There are no guaranteed buckets, only very likely ones if you have a good shooter and hit the ideal release point for the best possible chance.

What I'd like are mechanics that balance skill (nailing the timing) with player attributes, defensive pressure, and realistic percentages. What they've done in NBA 2K18 aims for that, but the results feel forced and contrived. Beluba has indicated a desire to wean gamers off Green releases, which isn't a bad idea in and of itself. An approach like NBA Live 16's might be a better method of doing what this year's mechanics were attempting.

The other issue that I touched on but meant to say more about is free throws. It's not uncommon to miss back-to-back free throws that apparently had an 85% chance (or better) of going in. Now, there's obviously also a 15% chance of those shots missing, but free throws with high chances of going in seem to miss a little too much, especially in pairs. It doesn't help that free throws in MyCAREER are dependent on grinding the Free Throw Ace Badge either, but the mechanics are still problematic in other modes as well. While right stick aiming made jumpshots too easy, I thought it was a great mechanic for free throws. I'd like to see it return. It also gives us the ability to aim free throws left or right, if we need to intentionally miss them for the offensive rebound attempt.