NBA 2K18 - Gameplay Discussion

[Dee4Three]

Hi all,

It's been 16 months since the release of NBA 2K17.

I feel like 2K17 was the breakthrough year for PC modding and gameplay discussion on this gen, and part of that is because it was the best 2K on this gen thus far (Or atleast up to that point, some prefer 2K18 now). I noticed a massive uptick in modding, and a lot of new modders came in to create work. The game itself while partially destroyed by patches, made many improvements over 2K16, making it a game that people put a lot of hours into playing and/or modding.

Since 2K18 came out, excitement around it among those who were prominent on the 2K17 modding scene has partially gone away. Many who were very active on 2K17 have disappeared (including myself), some may be for personal reasons; which is expected as we all have lives outside of modding, but some of it is (In my opinion) due to the lack of appeal of the new title. We expect modding to trail off slightly throughout the year, but not people to completely vanish. In NBA 2K17, I feel we were all active and modding up until the release of 2K18.

Great projects (Like the Euro league project) are happening on 2K18, and some amazing CF's are being made. However, so much emphasis has been placed on adfly links, youtube views, compensation/attention in general, that the NBA 2K18 modding sections seems more like advertising for personal gain more than helping out the community. I feel that in NBA 2K17, we had people pushing hard for improvements in modding and modding tools, but also pushing hard for eachother. It felt like an active, fun, engaged community.

Was 2K17 perfect? no, it was not. But did the community rally around that project for the right reasons? I absolutely believe so. I feel that in NBA 2K17 we had the perfect balance of modding and gameplay conversations. In NBA 2K18, I feel like outside of my defense thread, gameplay discussions have basically died out. Have we given up on trying to give feedback to improve products in favor of sporting some nifty looking screenshots for views, compensation, and attention?

Either way, I plan on attempting to come back strong for 2K19 as long as I like the product. However, from what I have seen, not enough people are talking about the gameplay issues surrounding 2K18, which makes me think the gameplay direction may continue on it's current path. Which worries me.

Here are the gameplay areas I would like to have an active discussion about:

1. Skating - Not only does it look unnatural, but it feels out of control. Stopping players while they are in skating animations is frustrating, and feels delayed. It makes the game not flow like a realistic basketball game. Additionally, it feels like we have less control because of it.

2. Delayed passing - They added many more animations to the passing, combining that with skating into passes causes a delay. I cant move the ball realistically, so many wind up animations cause delay.

3. One on one defense - My thread on this got a lot of reaction. The one on one defense in this game is abysmal, ratings/tendencies are thrown out the door with one on one defense. I can use Trevor Ariza and blow by Kawhi Leonard whenever I want. Why? Because the new motion system puts the defender on my side whenever I move forward. I don't need to use dribbling moves, strategy, or anything. I can just run to the hoop.

4. Ball physics/backboard physics - How many times have you gone up for a shot right around the basket and the ball ricochets hard off the glass (Hitting the front of the rim and missing)? How many times have you gone up for what you would consider a soft shot, and the ball goes up soft, but comes off hard off the glass for a miss? There is something wrong with the ball and backboard physics in this game.

5. Shooting - Shooting has a "Gumby" feel to it in this game, it doesn't flow. Animations seem faster, rushed, and less realistic. This also seems to be tied into the new motion system.

6. Dead atmosphere - Not only are the arenas unrealistically dark, but the crowd atmosphere is absolutely dead.


I won't go into any other graphical issues (Like the body types, oversized heads, etc). I am talking about strictly on court gameplay.

I want to hear your thoughts, we want NBA 2K19 to be the best 2K on this gen.

[Andrew]

The new motion engine doesn't feel quite right. That's why we're seeing and feeling a lot of skating, clipping, and what I'd call a general looseness or sloppiness. The controls are more responsive than NBA 2K17 which is nice, and there is a bit more fluidity as a result, but at the same time, it feels too fluid. The new tech even brought back zig zag cheese in a big way, and while one of the patches kind of nerfed it, it's still an issue that's readily exploited online.

Clipping actually seems to have gotten worse this year. The weird thing is, it affects the user more than the CPU. The CPU will get a lot of body steals, but will also clip right through my player and keep control of the ball more often than not. With some of the other technological advancements the game has made over the past five years, it's been really weird to see the physics and collisions get progressively worse.

Shooting mechanics are, frankly, broken. As discussed in another thread, it's been discovered that a Good release is basically a nerfed Excellent release, with a drastic drop in the likelihood of making the shot; in fact, it's actually worse than a Slightly Early or Slightly Late release. As NBA2KLab has pointed out, it's still worth trying for the best release possible because a perfectly timed release does go in automatically, but it's still silly that a Good release has the lowest odds. It's been done to try to make things less cheesy by making it more difficult to get Green after Green, but the result is artificial difficulty and a conceptually flawed approach.

I think it's the legacy issues that bother me the most. I've mentioned clipping and body steals above, but another one is cheesy interceptions by the AI. In a developer blog, Scott OG mentioned that players would have more realistic awareness, and miss things that happen outside their range of vision (especially if their back is turned). However, the AI will still perform psychic steals, always knowing to stick their hand out to intercept a pass, even if their back is turned. Even if you want to say that they're watching the defender's eyes and hands reaching out for a pass, the fact that they manage to deflect or successfully intercept passes so often is unrealistic and unbalanced.

Another legacy problem is canned moments. Still focusing on steals and interceptions for a moment, if you watch a lot of interceptions the CPU gets, you'll see that you actually pass right to them, even if you're using icon passing, and the direction of the pass should not allow for an easy interception (especially if the defender doesn't move). Now, some passes should go awry, but not that often. It's blatantly canned, a matter of the game deciding "you're going to get this turnover" rather than you actually making a risky pass. A lot of long but easy passes into the frontcourt end up being turnovers, because they're either off target, or players just don't catch them when they clearly could. Most of the turnovers in NBA 2K18 feel incredibly cheap and canned.

The same goes for trying to steal the ball. Instead of being physics based, the game randomly decides when you'll poke the ball loose, fail to get the steal, or get a reach-in foul. Reach-in fouls are also horribly canned. You can tap the button once, and thanks to the aforementioned random chance, your player will suddenly start hacking and grabbing at the ballhandler, resulting in the obvious foul call. That should happen if you spam the steal button, but a single well-timed press should not result in this canned scenario as often as it does.

There's also the familiar issue of getting stuck in bad animations: players leaping (or even warping) out of bounds for no reason, bad catches just because, stumbling and fumbling for no apparent reason, and so on. In order to make the game more organic, players should mess up, there should be catches that aren't clean, and the more difficult/lower percentage plays should have a certain amount of risk. The problem is, stuff like that happens too often, and too many simple plays/passes are treated as if they're difficult. These issues are accentuated in MyCAREER and the connected modes, where Archetypes have some weird ratings and unrealistic/unbalanced weaknesses. There are a lot of situations where it feels like you messed up because the game decided you would, and not because you made a bad or risky decision.

Overall, there's a sloppiness to the gameplay that detracts from the fun and enjoyment this year. It really does seem like more time was spent on figuring out how to implement more microtransactions and build the game for the new NBA 2K League, rather than polish the game and address the myriad of legacy issues. The new motion engine, while it does have its benefits, feels unfinished. The most polished elements of NBA 2K18 are the systems that result in "recurrent revenue", and I think that's very telling.

[StyxTx]

A son of one of my friends has the game and the first thing I noticed was how dark the arenas are. If for no other reason than safety, arenas would never come close to being that dark. Part of what I did like about previous versions was the ability to look around the arenas when I was on the bench to see the uniqueness of each building. In 18 all you're looking at is one huge shadow. I think they tried this same lighting, or lack thereof, in a previous version.

BTW, he went back to 17 and says that if they continue to go down the path they are going with VC, he will not buy any more versions.

[Andrew]

Something about the atmosphere does feel off, and that does affect the general gameplay vibe. I can put up with that, but the issues with the mechanics have been a major problem for me this year.

[Dee4Three]

It blows my mind that the developers of a game so big, that reaches so many people, can drop the ball so bad on something as simple as atmosphere. Even if the crowd wasn't as animated as in real life, atleast give us realistic lighting for the arenas. But the combination of dark arenas and an inactive crowd just give the game a dead atmosphere, it's bland. It's not NBA Action. And I'm not saying this is the case, but it also seems like it could be intentional in order to have something to improve on visually in the newer titles. I wouldn't be surprised to see a complete overhaul in atmosphere for 2K19 or 2K20. If it's not intentional for that reason, I would venture to say it's a complete disconnect with the atmosphere of a real NBA game, and the user base.

I agree with Andrew (and have stated this before), gameplay trumps all. I could handle the poor atmosphere and graphical mishaps if the game felt right, was fun to play, and was a good overall NBA simulation. But that is not the case in NBA 2K18.

I'll say again, I can't believe more people are not talking about the skating in this game.

[PeacemanNOT]

I mean I prefer 2K18 over 2K17. I can't really explain why since I haven't played the game in awhile but I remember when I picked up the game I felt an improvement (other than that whole drive to the basket thing which could be done so easily). I won't be playing 2K19 no matter how good it is if the whole VC bullshit happens again (which it definitely will because of Take-Two and their new microtransactions plan). I can't stand VC... it just ruins the game and it's getting worse year by year. Obviously people are going to have different opinions. In terms of modding, I don't have the time to dedicate to the full scale modding like I said I wouldn't. It has nothing do with the fact I don't like the game.

[Dee4Three]

I mean I prefer 2K18 over 2K17. I can't really explain why since I haven't played the game in awhile but I remember when I picked up the game I felt an improvement (other than that whole drive to the basket thing which could be done so easily). I won't be playing 2K19 no matter how good it is if the whole VC bullshit happens again (which it definitely will because of Take-Two and their new microtransactions plan). I can't stand VC... it just ruins the game and it's getting worse year by year. Obviously people are going to have different opinions. In terms of modding, I don't have the time to dedicate to the full scale modding like I said I wouldn't. It has nothing do with the fact I don't like the game.

Yeah I wasn't including you in that comment. But it's nice to see you around.

It looks like they may be continuing that VC approach in 2K19. Which makes me sad.

[Andrew]

VC isn't going anywhere, but the approach could still be more user-friendly, and less intrusive to the overall experience. It has been successful for Take Two in NBA 2K18 though, what with the increase in "recurrent revenue", so my concern is that the instructions are going to keep going from above to stay the course.

[StyxTx]

It blows my mind that the developers of a game so big, that reaches so many people, can drop the ball so bad on something as simple as atmosphere. Even if the crowd wasn't as animated as in real life, atleast give us realistic lighting for the arenas. But the combination of dark arenas and an inactive crowd just give the game a dead atmosphere, it's bland. It's not NBA Action. And I'm not saying this is the case, but it also seems like it could be intentional in order to have something to improve on visually in the newer titles. I wouldn't be surprised to see a complete overhaul in atmosphere for 2K19 or 2K20. If it's not intentional for that reason, I would venture to say it's a complete disconnect with the atmosphere of a real NBA game, and the user base.

I agree with Andrew (and have stated this before), gameplay trumps all. I could handle the poor atmosphere and graphical mishaps if the game felt right, was fun to play, and was a good overall NBA simulation. But that is not the case in NBA 2K18.

I'll say again, I can't believe more people are not talking about the skating in this game.

The lighting probably was done to help graphics cards that had problems with full lighting.

[Dee4Three]

It blows my mind that the developers of a game so big, that reaches so many people, can drop the ball so bad on something as simple as atmosphere. Even if the crowd wasn't as animated as in real life, atleast give us realistic lighting for the arenas. But the combination of dark arenas and an inactive crowd just give the game a dead atmosphere, it's bland. It's not NBA Action. And I'm not saying this is the case, but it also seems like it could be intentional in order to have something to improve on visually in the newer titles. I wouldn't be surprised to see a complete overhaul in atmosphere for 2K19 or 2K20. If it's not intentional for that reason, I would venture to say it's a complete disconnect with the atmosphere of a real NBA game, and the user base.

I agree with Andrew (and have stated this before), gameplay trumps all. I could handle the poor atmosphere and graphical mishaps if the game felt right, was fun to play, and was a good overall NBA simulation. But that is not the case in NBA 2K18.

I'll say again, I can't believe more people are not talking about the skating in this game.

The lighting probably was done to help graphics cards that had problems with full lighting.

It's more the animations (like crowd animations). From what I gather, the lighting itself doesn't cause a FPS hit. Ambient Occlusion does, but that's different.

[Daex]

I strongly agree on broken gameplay, I'd like to add some of the issues which are personally bugging me the most too, that would be (in addition to issues mentioned by others):

• Blocking - suddenly, this year is more beneficial to jump like a moron on every fake because it's something like 50% pump fake will be blocked anyway. I call this mechanic "ass-blocking".
• Passing the ball to roller in pick and roller always causes them to fumble and drop the ball. While it's true that in today's NBA, most likely inside pass will lead to D collapsing and probably doubling the player, the fumble animation is so frequent that it's ridiculous.

[Andrew]

Yeah, the fumbling animations need to be tuned. I like the idea of making the game more organic and having those kinds of mishaps, but the frequency and likelihood seems off. It also doesn't happen to the CPU nearly as often, so it feels like a cheap way to make the game more challenging, rather than adding realism to the gameplay.

This, for example. It happens too often. I didn't go out of bounds on this occasion (somehow) but often you'll leap, stumble, or even warp out of bounds on a strange animation selection.

phpBB [video]

[sticky-fingers]

I never saw this animation

[Daex]

Yeah, that one is very unrealistic even when we are talking below NBA level.

[Andrew]

It should feasibly happen sometimes, but it feels so random and canned when it does. I'm all for Shaqtin' a Fool-type moments to make the game more organic, but like I said, it needs to be tuned better.

Speaking of moments that are supposed to be more lifelike but end up feeling canned:

phpBB [video]

My player doesn't even try to catch that easy pass.

[Dee4Three]

Those fumbling animations happen all the time. And, it goes with the clunky passing mechanics I was talking about. Whether it be the passer, or the received. Stumbling into passes, stumbling when receiving. Drawn out passing animations in general.

What you call "ass blocking", I've been calling "Body Blocks" for three years. Body steals happen a lot as well. They can't seem to get rid of it, or don't see it as a big deal like we do.

[Andrew]

The annoying thing is that the CPU tends to be able to clip and dribble through you with ease, but often gets body steals from you. Obviously there should ideally be as little clipping as possible, and proper physicality on the perimeter, but it feels like the CPU has a deliberate advantage, which makes it seem like it's by design.

[Dee4Three]

The annoying thing is that the CPU tends to be able to clip and dribble through you with ease, but often gets body steals from you. Obviously there should ideally be as little clipping as possible, and proper physicality on the perimeter, but it feels like the CPU has a deliberate advantage, which makes it seem like it's by design.

I agree, but overall I would say the CPU is the easiest on this gen for 2K games. I mean, they are not bright. And, they are extremely predictable. I've held teams to like 2 for 18 shooting (that type of shooting percentage) numerous times in games.

The CPU takes numerous off balance shots for no reason, they also go up in traffic constantly. And it doesn't matter if you are right in there shorts, I will hold the joystick up and towards the offensive player, and he will still go up with the shot. And he will miss almost all the time.

Not to mention the lack of help defense when we get by the first defender. The CPU is lost.

[Daex]

What you call "ass blocking", I've been calling "Body Blocks" for three years. Body steals happen a lot as well. They can't seem to get rid of it, or don't see it as a big deal like we do.

It's like an overall theme isn't it, just general lack of attention to detail?

There's another minor thing that irks me, I mean maybe it can be mitigated by messing up with rosters, but I'm really little tired of dealing with issues through editing rosters & sliders... I swear, like 50% of the historic star players (most guards and wings) have LeBron's contact dunk animations (maybe layups too). Like he has this weird body twist thing, that a) nobody else does, b) nobody else ever did. It annoys me to no end to see Magic or Kobe do this LeBron type dunk. Maybe I'll try recording and uploading a video to show you guys if it's not clear what it is.

[Daex]

Not to mention the lack of help defense when we get by the first defender. The CPU is lost.

Friend an I were talking about this the other day, it's insane how much it ruins games, I mean games where you try to have simulation type gameplay.

It's like, if 1 screen works, AI's mind is blown and suddenly 2-3 players are open.

[Dee4Three]

Not to mention the lack of help defense when we get by the first defender. The CPU is lost.

Friend an I were talking about this the other day, it's insane how much it ruins games, I mean games where you try to have simulation type gameplay.

It's like, if 1 screen works, AI's mind is blown and suddenly 2-3 players are open.

Yeah, the problem is, it's not even a screen or something special that happens that makes them lose there minds. I can literally just run by my first defender and go straight to the rim with no help.

But you are right, one thing can also happen and the whole defense of the CPU flat out breaks down. This happened in 2K17 sometimes as well, but in the halfcourt it feels even worse in 2K18. The defense is abysmal.

[Andrew]

CPU teammates laying it up into the bottom of the backboard is also still a problem, even though one of the patches was meant to address it. Again, it's something that should be able to happen - we've seen some very ugly blown layups over the years - but not as often as it does.

I've had games in MyCAREER where Robin Lopez has blown almost every layup by sending it into the bottom of the board after a pick and roll. The timing on the pass was absolutely fine, too. The fact that a patch was intended to address it basically confirms it's an issue with the game and not me or any other user, but it's still happening.

[StyxTx]

It blows my mind that the developers of a game so big, that reaches so many people, can drop the ball so bad on something as simple as atmosphere. Even if the crowd wasn't as animated as in real life, atleast give us realistic lighting for the arenas. But the combination of dark arenas and an inactive crowd just give the game a dead atmosphere, it's bland. It's not NBA Action. And I'm not saying this is the case, but it also seems like it could be intentional in order to have something to improve on visually in the newer titles. I wouldn't be surprised to see a complete overhaul in atmosphere for 2K19 or 2K20. If it's not intentional for that reason, I would venture to say it's a complete disconnect with the atmosphere of a real NBA game, and the user base.

I agree with Andrew (and have stated this before), gameplay trumps all. I could handle the poor atmosphere and graphical mishaps if the game felt right, was fun to play, and was a good overall NBA simulation. But that is not the case in NBA 2K18.

I'll say again, I can't believe more people are not talking about the skating in this game.

The lighting probably was done to help graphics cards that had problems with full lighting.

It's more the animations (like crowd animations). From what I gather, the lighting itself doesn't cause a FPS hit. Ambient Occlusion does, but that's different.

Yeah. That's what I was kinda shooting at. I noticed with my older graphic card, in one of the previous versions, if I turned the crowd down to medium or less, the stuttering went away. So the lighting pretty much cuts out the crowd. But the big drawback is the lack of crowd participation or activity making the games kinda boring. As you said, a dead crowd.

[Dee4Three]

Ahh, gotcha. I see what you were getting at.

I'd rather have a sit still crowd with good lighting, than a sit still crowd with unrealistically dark lighting. They achieved that in NBA 2K17, and the FPS was perfectly fine. I don't see anybody stating that 2K18 is working better than 2K17 for them. So it's interesting.

I felt the lighting in 2K17 was a step in the right direction.

[Andrew]

So, we've identified some of the most pressing gameplay issues this year. Since we are compiling the Wishlist at the moment, what are some specific suggestions and solutions that we can offer?