General Discussion Amongst Modders

[Andrew]

I am creating this thread as an avenue to have general discussion amongst my fellow modders.
This could also be used as a space to resolve misconceptions, misunderstandings, or just general feedback that may not fit under the umbrella of any specific thread.

Admins feel free to lock this up, if it gets out of hand.




About the author of this thread:

Twitter: @TGsoGood
Youtube: The Goods on Youtube ( TGsoGood )
Steam: TGsoGood
NLSC: TGsoGood
OperationSports: TGsoGood

Donations: http://paypal.me/4TheGoods

[TGsoGood]

... continuing conversation from viewtopic.php?f=236&t=104816

Now I won't claim to know for sure but I have heard users saying their content is used in the "mod pack". That just seems like quite a large download for the amount of content that has been produced by the user Shaujota, alone.

From my undertstanding there is a team (which I am no part of) working on the DNA roster project as a whole. I am only going off of the info that has been presented in Shuajota's post. Are you saying that some of the work for this draft class is stolen? I am under the impression that Shuajota has created these cyberfaces and portraits which is why there are only a few. If you do not know for sure then you should encourage the users that are reporting stolen work to speak with administrators.

So if we're going to be all sunshine and rainbows about the community, don't you find it a little odd you're both participating in, and promoting in the blatant disregard this community you're so fond of? Certainly seems hypocritical to me.

I am not promoting the disregard of this community. I did not create any of the content in this roster or draft, I simply provided a link to another user's draft class formula's, whom I give full credit to in both the forum thread and video I made discussing the formulas.

You make videos about this roster ---> people go to download ---> ad money for downloading ---> content received is stolen from other members. It's not that hard to make the connections. If you support this user, you do not support the community. He has shown constant disregard for this community you claim to support. He has made fake accounts to bolster his own content, and this would be at least the second time I'm aware of him taking other's content and possibly monetizing it without their consent. But who am I kidding, nobody here cares about the community. This has become a place to collect revenue from ads and try to build a YouTube following.

The draft class is just an embodiment of the problem. The roster itself (which is a necessary addition apparently...hooray more ad revenue) is the biggest issue. The draft class being released in minuscule "updates", each with ads strewn all about is the problem I see.

It's very clear I operate differently than what the NBA 2k18 community has become. There's nothing wrong with that, I'm in the minority so I'll just excuse myself.

My response is in defense of myself no one else.
Please stop saying that I support stolen work. I make youtube videos as a hobby just like I mod as a hobby. I do monetize my videos but that is my choice, I cannot however control if others put downloads behind ad links.

Also there is nothing wrong with building a youtube following. I do not make daily videos, just what I see as entertaining or helpful. In the past I have even helped you and promoted your work on my channel as well as contributed to it.

What is wrong with my channel? I do not even monetize every video. Even if I did, I do not see any issue as I have not taken anything from anyone and I give credit whenever possible.

[bluejaybrandon]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with the Youtube thing, in general. Also, there is nothing wrong 99% of the time with your YouTube thing. Where I find fault is when you openly praise the community (which you do indeed dedicate a lot of time to giving back) and then promote the work of a user that is the embodiment of the toxic nature of the community. In my opinion, the last thing you should be doing is helping others to find his content. He is actively benefiting off of the work of others. His "special thanks" section doesn't mean that he is collaborating with those users, it means he blatantly stole their work, packaged it up with the little content he created, then slapped an adlink on the whole package. When you go an give hundreds to thousands of views to content like that, its just promoting a culture that I really think is counter intuitive. As for me specifically, yes you did promote my draft class last year. However, I had no adlinks on any of my content so ironically, the only revenue from that project came in the form of the views you garnered. As for your contributions to the project, I'm very thankful for that but if you recall there were specific donations for each contribution you made. I take pride in taking care of the creators and I don't intend to come across as taking advantage of them.

The entire Youtube phenomena is its own discussion and I won't get into it but basically to me it seems like users (again not you specifically) are more intent to steal content and get money than to actually create for the love of 2k or to generally benefit the community. That's why I don't use adlinks. I want the process to be as streamlined as possible and for as many users to get to enjoy the content as possible. However, there are users like Shaujota that seek 5,000 likes on Youtube before he releases content. Or take his "custom cyberface creations", where if you donate an undisclosed amount he'll make you a personal cyberface. To me, that's no different than selling mods and that leads to a slippery slope of concerns.

[TGsoGood]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with the Youtube thing, in general. Also, there is nothing wrong 99% of the time with your YouTube thing. Where I find fault is when you openly praise the community (which you do indeed dedicate a lot of time to giving back) and then promoting the work of a user that is the embodiment of the toxic nature of the community. In my opinion, the last thing you should be doing is helping others to find his content.

This is the first time I am seeing someone say that the 2K18 DNA roster is stolen work of others, you said you did not know for sure yourself.

He is actively benefiting off of the work of others. His "special thanks" section doesn't mean that he is collaborating with those users, it means he blatantly stole their work, packaged it up with the little content he created, then slapped an adlink on the whole package.

You said you didn't know for sure if it was stolen, but states the work is "blatantly stolen". I am not going to defend because I don't know, but I can say that I myself have never seen the stolen claims for the 2K18 DNA roster. As I stated before I was under the impression that this was the work of a team.

When you go an give hundreds to thousands of views to content like that, its just promoting a culture that I really think is counter intuitive. As for me specifically, yes you did promote my draft class last year.

I have promoted the DNA roster once and that video is not even monetized.
The other 2 videos promoting DNA draft also contained info about other draft classes such as your project and a 2K14 Draft class for 2018.



As shown above those videos don't come close to "hundreds of thousands of views"

However, I had no adlinks on any of my content so ironically, the only revenue from that project came in the form of the views you garnered.

1. My videos started out as a way to showcase my own cyberface creations.
2. I honestly wish you would have also made a channel showing off your draft class.
3.Other channels were also able to garner some attention by integrating your draft class, but I looked at it as a big promotion for the PC community

phpBB [video]

phpBB [video]

As for your contributions to the project, I'm very thankful for that but if you recall there were specific donations for each contribution you made. I take pride in taking care of the creators and I don't intend to come across as taking advantage of them.

You have been one of my favorite creators, which is why I look forward to your draft work. I know the effort you put in. Also I do recall you making donations. I do not want it to appear as though I am a money scheming modder. Those donations were used to ensure that I could have a specific block of time and space to create those cyberfaces. This is the number one reason why I have not created faces this year, because I do not have a dedicated space / block of time that will allow me to sit and spend several hours just working on faces. I have a very demanding schedule, a wife, and two kids. It sometimes takes a temporary workspace (such as rentable spaces at the library) to dial in for a few hours to do some of the work I was able to do at home in past years. That is why monetizing youtube videos can be helpful. But in no way am I just "raking in the cash".

The entire Youtube phenomena is its own discussion and I won't get into it but basically to me it seems like users (again not you specifically) are more intent to steal content and get money than to actually create for the love of 2k or to generally benefit the community. That's why I don't use adlinks. I want the process to be as streamlined as possible and for as many users to get to enjoy the content as possible. However, there are users like Shaujota that seek 5,000 likes on Youtube before he releases content. Or take his "custom cyberface creations", where if you donate an undisclosed amount he'll make you a personal cyberface. To me, that's no different than selling mods and that leads to a slippery slope of concerns.

As far as creating for the love of modding/ 2K, I will not speak for Shuajota, but I have been modding 2K since 2K10. I was one of the first people to say my work was "open-source". I encourage everyone to use my work because I do love modding and want to see how others build on my work. At the end of the day I respect other people's decisions to not openly share work or even sell work.

As far as youtube goes, you almost have to use youtube to promote your own work in this day and age.
In the past I have experienced people building on my work and then selling it or releasing to exclusive groups but the refusing to share with me even though I was original creator. I even helped people with step by step processes and then they were unwilling to share their finished works.
I have experienced multiple journalist or video outlets doing pieces about my works and not giving credit to me but crediting others who had nothing to do with the work (WNBA Mod, Lamelo Ball, Hoodie Melo). I mean to see Bleacher Report and Forbes completely forget to mention me and credit random people is a messed up feeling. And I know for a fact they made money, because those articles were a part of their job.

I say all that to say, I know what it feels like to have work stolen. I genuinely support the modding community through videos, shoutouts, donations, helping out, etc.

-- backing away from defending myself

The only thing I have to say in regards to DNA roster stuff is that even if the mods don't always get completed, I still support people putting in the effort to at least try.

I remember when you yourself left a few mods unfinished.
viewtopic.php?f=225&t=103524&hilit=nlsc+realistic+community&start=450#p1896489
viewtopic.php?f=236&t=104100
viewtopic.php?f=225&t=103872&p=1899699#p1896455

or when you took down all previews and links to one of your best works
viewtopic.php?f=225&t=103234&start=250#p1916255

I even defended you.

viewtopic.php?f=225&t=103872&p=1899699#p1896455



--EDIT (additional)---

This was not intended to attempt to bash you, your work here at NLSC has made my gameplay experience more fun. I wanted to clear my own name from any accusations of shadiness towards this community. I just hope to see fruitful relationships and constructive discourse take place here at NLSC to keep the community growing. I have been coming to this website for about 15+ years, I definitely do hate when things get ugly among community members because this is a great place.

[Shuajota]

I am not going to create unnecessary discussions, but seeing that I am being mentioned and talking about stolen works, I think it is convenient to pronounce myself.
I also have followers of my own web that asked me for a 2018 draft, even if I did not have faces. Therefore I do not see the problem of release my own version when all the players are created, although not all of them have cyberfaces.
And since I want to create an NCAA roster with AmaroWaade I need to create my own faces so I do not "steal" your work.
This is not a competitiom, simply here each modder performs his own work from his own point of view. and I still remember when I started talking about that I was going to create DNA Roster for 2K18 and bluejaybrandon gave me congratulations and recommended my roster.
I have also helped many users in the community and I have always respected all of them. As for paid links, many users here use them. And I've only included advertising links when in the rar there are files created by me. Because it is a support to my work. I do not live from it.
Now I just need to read that ACB is also a stolen job after 3-4 months of work ....

[Dee4Three]

This is an interesting topic.

The last 3 years I'd like to say that I have had a sizeable role in modding and on NLSC in general, and it felt good that many wanted me as a contributor. I am not starting this off like this to brag, but I am stating it as an introduction because it has to do with what I will say next.

During those 3 years, I have not asked for any donations, despite the fact that I have had numerous people on my Youtube, on my PM, and in regular forum posts ask me if they can donate. I agree with open source, I am not part of any private groups, I've never paid for a mod, etc. I believe that modding can be independent and individually enjoyed for selfish reasons, and that's perfectly fine. However, if you are on a forum teasing work (I won't name names, but many through the years have done this), you are flaunting, selfish, and looking for profit (if you indeed only share with monetization, or within a small group). If you are stealing other people's mods to claim as your own, you are a special kind of selfish, and you are not someone that I would want to associate with on here or in real life. It tells alot about your character.

With that being said, if a mod is made completely from scratch, and you have a small group that you want to sell to eachother in, and it's not something that you place on youtube or on the NLSC to flaunt, I really don't care. I mean, it doesn't impact anybody here in a negative way, doesn't impact me, etc. But, it never seems to work that way.

I spent thousands of hours on 2K17 (not an exaggeration). A ton of it modding my rosters, and also a big portion playing it. Same with 2K16 and 2K14. I continue to make videos for my YT channel, and while I have 850 subscribers, I have lost many and continue to not gain a lot more because I refuse to play NBA 2K18. I believe in being true to yourself (christ, I sound like Kyrie Irving), I believe in not doing things for attention, or playing something new because of pressure, or modding something I'm not a fan of, or doing things I don't want to do for compensation (like many people who go nuts with a YouTube channel, sell mods, etc). I am happy with that decision.

In closing, I still contribute to the community when I can, and I still prefer this community over other gaming websites. This is still my home away from home. My hope is; that people here make all of the works open source if they choose to share screenshots, and that nobody here is trying to up YT views and likes by promising a release of something by the time they get to those likes. Your likes and views should be genuine, related to the quality of the content you share, not by pressuring people to do things just so you can get more.

[bluejaybrandon]

This is an interesting topic.

The last 3 years I'd like to say that I have had a sizeable role in modding and on NLSC in general, and it felt good that many wanted me as a contributor. I am not starting this off like this to brag, but I am stating it as an introduction because it has to do with what I will say next.

During those 3 years, I have not asked for any donations, despite the fact that I have had numerous people on my Youtube, on my PM, and in regular forum posts ask me if they can donate. I agree with open source, I am not part of any private groups, I've never paid for a mod, etc. I believe that modding can be independent and individually enjoyed for selfish reasons, and that's perfectly fine. However, if you are on a forum teasing work (I won't name names, but many through the years have done this), you are flaunting, selfish, and looking for profit (if you indeed only share with monetization, or within a small group). If you are stealing other people's mods to claim as your own, you are a special kind of selfish, and you are not someone that I would want to associate with on here or in real life. It tells alot about your character.

With that being said, if a mod is made completely from scratch, and you have a small group that you want to sell to eachother in, and it's not something that you place on youtube or on the NLSC to flaunt, I really don't care. I mean, it doesn't impact anybody here in a negative way, doesn't impact me, etc. But, it never seems to work that way.

I spent thousands of hours on 2K17 (not an exaggeration). A ton of it modding my rosters, and also a big portion playing it. Same with 2K16 and 2K14. I continue to make videos for my YT channel, and while I have 850 subscribers, I have lost many and continue to not gain a lot more because I refuse to play NBA 2K18. I believe in being true to yourself (christ, I sound like Kyrie Irving), I believe in not doing things for attention, or playing something new because of pressure, or modding something I'm not a fan of, or doing things I don't want to do for compensation (like many people who go nuts with a YouTube channel, sell mods, etc). I am happy with that decision.

In closing, I still contribute to the community when I can, and I still prefer this community over other gaming websites. This is still my home away from home. My hope is; that people here make all of the works open source if they choose to share screenshots, and that nobody here is trying to up YT views and likes by promising a release of something by the time they get to those likes. Your likes and views should be genuine, related to the quality of the content you share, not by pressuring people to do things just so you can get more.

Couldn't have said it better myself. You're truly an inspirational member of the community.

All I'm saying is that this place has devolved into a community of "what's in it for me" mentally. All my issues stem from that problem. Whether its the comment asking for releases or specific content, or the slippery slope of Shaujota seeking 5,000 likes on his LaMelo face before release, these kinds of behavior don't reflect a "community", they reflect a "marketplace". This is why I have such a problem with sporadic and incomplete releases. Each "mod pack" is another download that can be full of ads. Not to mention, the fact that ads are even necessary blows my mind. The point of a community is to produce content, encourage each other, give feedback, and enjoy the game. Does $2.50 per mod really represent the make or break between whether a creator has the passion to continue working? If that's the case then perhaps modding is not the true intention and its better to forgo it altogether. I very much wish that ads would be purged from the site. The people with the actual passion to create will continue and those in it for money would fade away. Income for modding should be a luxury not a necessity.

As for myself, I have ended a fair number of projects because of a lack of time but I've always been straightforward about it. If I don't think a project can be completed in full and up to the standard of other members of the community, I won't pursue it. I don't make sweeping promises, release a small fraction of what is promised and then let it sit on the forum unattended. I've pulled many mods from this site for that reason including rosters and player updates, nothing unfinished is released. I personally don't want to see this site littered with low effort content slapped with ads to make a quick buck. Again, I've only been lurking here since about 2k13 but recently I just think this forum "NBA 2k18 Modding" is becoming less about community involvement and more about personal profit.

[zetsuboushta]

If I don't think a project can be completed in full and up to the standard of other members of the community, I won't pursue it. I don't make sweeping promises, release a small fraction of what is promised and then let it sit on the forum unattended. I've pulled many mods from this site for that reason including rosters and player updates, nothing unfinished is released.

Actually, there is another point about these words. It's your personal views and i don't want to offend you in any way, but i think that unfinished projects could be uploaded. It can help another modders in developing those own skills and it can satisfy some of your fans to some extent. Really, it could be great for novice modders like me to see your unfinished work and learn to create something by using this(I'm talking about your Real Roster Project, actually i'm trying to do roster like yours, you inspired me, but it's hard to do it from scratch). Someone expect more than just unfinished roster, surely, but also someone actually wants to see the process and intermediate results. In the end, it's your personal preference, but i hope you'll hear my words.
I understand that your discussion has nothing to do with this aspect, but i believe this is the right place to raise this question which i wanted to raise in your topic. Hopefully i could explain myself correctly in sense of grammar.

[Andrew]

Some great points have been raised here. I've noticed the trends and have been considering writing a Monday Tip-Off article about it. I expect I will indeed end up doing that, but for now, I would like to share some thoughts.

There definitely has been a different vibe in the community in recent years. For legal reasons - as much as ethical ones - we can't charge directly for mods. We have come to allow tip jars and ad links, but it is starting to get out of hand. I'm finding that I'm having to remove a lot of files from the database because they've been uploaded to temporary file sharing services behind ad links, and they're getting deleted after a certain time. It seems a lot of people are modding for the purpose of making a few bucks, to the point where you have to go through multiple ad links to finally get to the download link in some egregious cases.

That's not all. We're also seeing competitiveness that's bordering on being toxic, as well as unfriendly interactions in general. I'm definitely bothered by the practice of asking people for Likes before release, as that's just a few steps removed from putting files behind a paywall. The same goes for password protecting archives, which is pointless if you're posting the password publicly anyway. And if the password isn't being posted publicly, "message me for the password" can easily lead to "send me a few bucks/make a donation for the password", which may seem like you're not actually charging for mods - wink, wink - but at that point, it's exactly what you're doing.

The community was founded on the concept of making cool mods for video games (originally NBA Live, now mostly NBA 2K and some retro modding for Live) and openly sharing them with our fellow gamers. I know things have changed with the Internet. There's ways of monetising content and utilising advertising (we obviously do it to fund our hosting costs), so if people create, they are looking to get some kind of compensation for their time beyond creative satisfaction and whatnot. I understand it, but it's become too much of a focus. I think it also contributes to some degree of hostility and ego.

I know there are groups off-site, on Facebook for example, where people share mods exclusively, and money changes hands. Obviously there's nothing we can do about that, it's outside our jurisdiction so to speak, but it's still a shame it's come to that. The worst part, as TGsoGood noted in another topic, is that those people will get help here, or take open source mods, and then turn them into their own exclusive releases after working on them further (again, sometimes charging money for them), which is a slap in the face to the original creators, and people who create tutorials and otherwise help them out. Again, not much we can do, but it's a sign of how attitudes have changed, and not for the better.

We can try and change the culture here, of course. Outside of taking a hard line stance against ad links and so forth - which is difficult at this point - it's a matter of leading by example in terms of releasing work so that it's freely available and easy to download, without any strings attached or asking people to jump through hoops, embracing open source and collaborative work wherever possible, being respectful in our conversations with each other, and helpful towards those who need assistance. If that's what the prominent modders are doing, then that will set the tone for the community. That's what I'd suggest, and what I'd like to see happen.

If I don't think a project can be completed in full and up to the standard of other members of the community, I won't pursue it. I don't make sweeping promises, release a small fraction of what is promised and then let it sit on the forum unattended. I've pulled many mods from this site for that reason including rosters and player updates, nothing unfinished is released.

Actually, there is another point about these words. It's your personal views and i don't want to offend you in any way, but i think that unfinished projects could be uploaded. It can help another modders in developing those own skills and it can satisfy some of your fans to some extent. Really, it could be great for novice modders like me to see your unfinished work and learn to create something by using this(I'm talking about your Real Roster Project, actually i'm trying to do roster like yours, you inspired me, but it's hard to do it from scratch). Someone expect more than just unfinished roster, surely, but also someone actually wants to see the process and intermediate results. In the end, it's your personal preference, but i hope you'll hear my words.
I understand that your discussion has nothing to do with this aspect, but i believe this is the right place to raise this question which i wanted to raise in your topic. Hopefully i could explain myself correctly in sense of grammar.

This is another interesting point. It's a good idea in theory, but in practice, it can be difficult handing your work over to someone to finish or continue in your stead. As much as we all need to keep our ego in check when it comes to modding, when you've put a lot of time into something, even if it's still basically a beta or demo release, we all feel we deserve some credit that sometimes gets lost when someone else takes over a project, and that's only natural. I think it could be really beneficial if people do that, and there's merit in beta/demo releases and an open source approach, or even just putting out something as a proof of concept that people could learn from, but not everyone is going to be on board with that. It's something to consider, at least.

[Andrew]

I've expanded on my thoughts with some succinct advice in this week's Monday Tip-Off: http://www.nba-live.com/mto-advice-modding-community/

I think I'll also move this to the Modding section, where might be able to get some more traction on a productive discussion.

[bluejaybrandon]

I've expanded on my thoughts with some succinct advice in this week's Monday Tip-Off: http://www.nba-live.com/mto-advice-modding-community/

I think I'll also move this to the Modding section, where might be able to get some more traction on a productive discussion.

Really enjoyed the write up. Lots of good stuff the community can take to heart, myself included. Really like the points about ad links. They have become almost a primary form of income from modding for some and that’s concerning. I strongly urge members of the community to donate to users they appreciate. I’ve made amazing connections on here because I was willing to help those that helped me. One $5 donation goes farther than any ad link. It’s a simple gesture for you, but goes so far for the creators.

[Andrew]

Glad you enjoyed it, I hope it can be a useful guide to modding community etiquette and culture. As I said, I was originally thinking of doing a more in-depth column discussing the concerns, but it occurred to me that it would be better to address the issues more succinctly, and offer some direct, unambiguous advice that I could put in bold.

[TGsoGood]

Good article.

[Andrew]

Thanks!

A specific suggestion I'd put out there in regards to tip jars is to put links to them underneath the description in the Downloads section. Obviously some people already do that, and I think it's preferable to ad links; especially running people through multiple ad links for one file, which is something I'd like to curb,

[Dee4Three]

Well done.

[Andrew]

Appreciate it!

[TGsoGood]

I guess there are still some people that missed that Monday Tip Off article.
Hopefully we can continue to get people to be supportive of each other more and more.
Modding is fun but when you have that support and positive interaction it makes modding even more fulfilling.

[Andrew]

I'm happy to keep referring back to it as a general guide to modding etiquette and culture. That's why I decided on point form, rather than a more analytical op-ed style for this one. (Also, because I've always intended MTO to have a less rigid format, it's just often easier to write a straightforward column).

[bluejaybrandon]

I guess there are still some people that missed that Monday Tip Off article.
Hopefully we can continue to get people to be supportive of each other more and more.
Modding is fun but when you have that support and positive interaction it makes modding even more fulfilling.

I’m sure this is a passive-aggressive jab at me. That’s fine, I’ll confront it. When there is a member so blatantly anti-community I’m going to continue to call them out. If I get banned for it so be it but I am tired of the deception and greed with no repercussions. Perhaps other parts of this site are different but the NBA 2k18 forum is less and less of a community because of these practices.

[TGsoGood]

I’m sure this is a passive-aggressive jab at me.

Fill me in...how is my comment directed at you?

Edit----

I am tired of the deception and greed with no repercussions.

I don't think you and I are talking about the same things.

[RKJ2k]

Nice discussion.
I'm guilty with that ad links sorry for that it give us a few bucks at list it help me to upgrade my Unit, I usually put one in my works. With donation i release it with the direct link.
Me and some of my modder friends decided to keep quiet in some community issues to avoid misunderstanding. I'll just speak once for us. Some modders take it as mod competition they even make dummy accounts to criticize others work and uplift theirs which i don't understand in their part.

[[Q]]

Some modders take it as mod competition they even make dummy accounts to criticize others work and uplift theirs which i don't understand in their part.

This is clearly against forum rules, and we can tell if someone is using more than one account so I would not recommend risking a ban for something as silly as your ego

[RKJ2k]

okay thanks sir... if that would be the consequence i'll take it. it's my fault by the way.

[Andrew]

That's the kind of stuff I was talking about when I mentioned how competition can be very toxic for the modding community. It's not the principle that we were founded upon. It doesn't cultivate an atmosphere of being helpful or cooperative. It just leads to bad blood and drama that we don't want. It's why we don't have modding competitions, or awards. Anything that's come close to that in years past has always ended up with people being nasty to one another, which doesn't make the community a friendlier, more productive, or overall better place.

Sock puppet accounts are, as Q noted, strictly against the rules. Action will be taken if we discover people doing that. If that's the kind of community you want to have, by all means feel free to start your own site, or keep it to one of those Facebook groups. But we're not going to devolve into petty bickering here, nor let people blatantly flaunt the rules without consequences. We've been around too long, and worked too hard to create a good thing, to turn into a place like that.

[RKJ2k]

thank you sir.
not in this site. i just notice in the other site. comments in others works