Wolves vs Spurs?

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Postby magius on Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:16 pm

the 4th is in fact true, i agree a great player does make his teammates better, but such a quality is fickle and intangible to judge even if you watch said player 82 times a year with the intensity of a hawk, not to mention almost impossible to prove with older players we may not have any real experience with due to innate bias. I think that the only feasible way one can prove a player can make his teammates better is by pointing to the before mentioned big three: title, title mvp, mvp. I don't think a player can achieve this pinnacle without being a player who makes those around him better.

We know that bryant and garnett don't excessively make their teammates better, one because they don't have the big 3, and 2 because for the most part they are surrounded by players who have had careers elsewhere and have not seen any individual statistical jumps. But we don't know if duncan does or doesnt considering that almost all of the parts around him have not had experience without him in the nba. I am inclined to say that duncan binds a couple of good individual talents (manu, parker) into a unit that can win (i dont think manu, parker would be in championship winning situations without td), and makes role players succesful, not in the manner of statistical succes, but rather he makes them looks good iin terms of others look upon them as good role players who contribute to a winning team which is exactly what kerr and the likes were, when people play with duncan, people conlcude that those people do the little things right because the spurs win, but maybe it is actually one of two things: they've always done the little things right, but no one noticed cuz they werent winning, or two duncan lets them concentrate their energies on the little while he does the big, and energizes their confidence in a winning enviroment created through himself (the energy level of a player in a winning situation and losing is leaps and bounds apart). I think the same could be said of many of the greats: mj had a couple of good talents who wouldve been statistically succesful elsewhere (pip, rod) and a bunch of rolies. hakeem had drex and cassell. duncan had robinson at first then manu, parker.

In the end I think the big 3 (championship, playoff mvp, mvp) is as solid a criteria as any in judging the great and the very good. It has yet be disproven, and I think that the obtaining of the three is an accumulation of a multiplude of intangibles into something tangible.
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Postby hmm on Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:28 pm

....................................
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Postby Sauru on Tue Aug 17, 2004 6:20 am

great post magius. now correct me if i am wrong but i dont think kobe has a finals MVP yet. if thats true then i dont see how anyone can even begin to compare him to jordan. like you said earlier its just insulting.
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Postby Riot on Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:34 am

I think if you have the "big 3" (playoff MVP, MVP and title) that means you are great. But I don't think it should limit you. It's a great thing to look at, if you have it then you're great but if you don't...that doesn't mean you aren't great.

Especially when their careers aren't over.

I think we are starting to see eye-to-eye more in this agrument. I think we both agree when I say you can't judge them until their careers are over. KG could win 3 rings and 3 MVPs and playoff mvps or duncan could.

You can't go wrong with either of them, duncan or kg.
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Postby Carlos Boozer on Tue Aug 17, 2004 8:15 am

Riot wrote:I think if you have the "big 3" (playoff MVP, MVP and title) that means you are great. But I don't think it should limit you. It's a great thing to look at, if you have it then you're great but if you don't...that doesn't mean you aren't great.

Especially when their careers aren't over.

I think we are starting to see eye-to-eye more in this agrument. I think we both agree when I say you can't judge them until their careers are over. KG could win 3 rings and 3 MVPs and playoff mvps or duncan could.

You can't go wrong with either of them, duncan or kg.

You are too obsessed with your MINNESOTA,minnsota this minnesota that..
:x :x
get over.
Btw Duncan is way better than KG. :)
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Postby Riot on Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:59 am

I'm a fan. That's what fans do.
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Postby Jackal on Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:01 am

Not really. You can be a fan & still be subjective. That's my only gripe with overly obsessed Kobe fans. There are also ones that can be neutral but seldom do you hear them voice their opinions.

Being a fan doesn't mean you say they have no faults, that's crap.
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Postby Sauru on Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:37 am

kobe fans are annoying simple cause kobe is not the best player in the league. hell he was not even the best player on his team until now. all these kobe fans think he is gonna carry that group deep in the playoffs? if they by some random chance make the playoffs they will be gone in 5 games tops.
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It's no use Riot...

Postby Hannibal on Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:43 am

... some Spurs fans simply won't admit that KG is on the same level as Duncan. They say us Minnesota fans keep making excuses for KG. Well if the facts supporting KG are now excuses, then all they are doing is making excuses for Duncan as well. Saying KG isn't on the same level as Duncan is absurd. Granted, Duncan is on another level when it comes to Championships and Finals MVPs, but that's about it. When it comes to overall ability, it's a different story.

Saying Duncan is better than Garnett because he has more rings is simply ridiculous. That is not how you gauge a player being better than the other. Last time I checked, championships are won by teams, NOT by individuals. And as much as some Spurs fans want to believe Duncan won all those rings by himself, that is simply not the case.

Oh and another thing, if Duncan was truly better than Garnett, then why did Garnett win last season's MVP BY A LANDSLIDE? Duncan didn't even get any first place votes if I remember correctly. If he was that much better than Garnett, wouldn't he have won the MVP again last year?

Oh but I'm sure they'll find an excuse for Duncan on this one.
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Postby Hannibal on Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:47 am

Riot wrote:You are too obsessed with your MINNESOTA,minnsota this minnesota that..
:x :x
get over.
Btw Duncan is way better than KG. :)


Take this response for example. Talk about being obsessed with something. I bet you can't make a decent case for Duncan being WAY BETTER than KG.

If you can, I'd like to hear it.
Last edited by Hannibal on Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sauru on Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:48 pm

you know, in the nba nowadays its usually the teams star player who will win mvp honors, with a team like the pistons being the exception simple cause they truely play as a team. the reason for this is simple. then are going to constantly keep giveing thier star the ball which will basicly hand him the mvp award if they win the title. before the 90's it could have been a number of different people who could win the mvp not just the best player. if the spurs make the finals and win duncan will be mvp. if the wolves make the finals and win then kg is going to be finals mvp.
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That's the point...

Postby Hannibal on Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:55 pm

... sadly, some people don't understand that. In many ways, Duncan and Garnett are equals. Duncan can be better in some aspects, but the same is true with Garnett.

In no way is one far superior than the other.
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No, it is not near-impossible...

Postby Hannibal on Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:13 pm

... given that you already have the 2003-2004 season. You said it yourself. One can also argue the season before that, where Duncan narrowly beat out Garnett for MVP. Keep in mind that Duncan has been consistent every year. Garnett isn't. The reason why he is not consistent is because he keeps improving his game every year. That is something even better than consistency. That is also something I do not see in Duncan.
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Postby FanOfAll on Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:00 pm

I wonder what's debated more, Duncan vs KG or Kobe vs T-Mac. I'd bet on the latter but both do go in many, many circles. You guys are beating a dead horse. Or should I say eating a stale cracker. Maybe drinking rotten milk.
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Re: It's no use Riot...

Postby magius on Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:57 pm

hannibal, if you havent already please read pages 1-1.5 before you post. i dont feel like posting all the stuff again :wink:
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Re: No, it is not near-impossible...

Postby Andrew on Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:01 am

Hannibal wrote:Keep in mind that Duncan has been consistent every year. Garnett isn't. The reason why he is not consistent is because he keeps improving his game every year. That is something even better than consistency. That is also something I do not see in Duncan.


I apologise in advance for my pedantic streak, but KG is actually showing consistency himself by constantly improving. ;)
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Postby twolvezfanfoever on Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:17 am

The man is special.Most don't improve all there stats when they have 2 stars on the teams.T'Wolves can beat Spurs no matter what they add.This is our year!!
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Postby Jackal on Thu Aug 19, 2004 12:43 am

We'll see... :cool:
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Re: It's no use Riot...

Postby Hannibal on Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:47 am

magius wrote:hannibal, if you havent already please read pages 1-1.5 before you post. i dont feel like posting all the stuff again :wink:


Magius, I have read the posts from page 1 onwards and I still haven't seen a good argument as to why TD is WAY BETTER than KG. If you truly believe that TD is WAY BETTER than KG, i'd like to see you prove your point.

And no, the big 3 just doesn't cut it. KG is a victim of bad circumstances here, while TD was not.

I was simple responding to Punisher's post about TD being WAY BETTER than KG - something I definitely do NOT agree with.
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Postby Sauru on Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:31 am

a cookie?
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Postby Carlos Boozer on Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:35 am

Sauru wrote:a cookie?
No its a dookie :roll:
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Postby Sauru on Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:57 am

wouldnt say no to some nookie either.
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Postby Riot on Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:57 am

Has has higher efficency rating. 9 times out of 10, if not 10 out of 10.
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Postby Carlos Boozer on Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:17 am

Riot wrote:Has has higher efficency rating. 9 times out of 10, if not 10 out of 10.

had had :roll:
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Postby Jackal on Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:40 am

Riot wrote:Has has higher efficency rating. 9 times out of 10, if not 10 out of 10.


Every season? Please. Just the previous season. As I noted earlier, Duncan could've been just behind KG had he had a WHOLE summer of vacation opposed to qualifying games of the US whilst KG was taking a break.

I think this discussion is closed, now all that's left is your incoherent & useless mumblings. :)
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