Jamal Crawford to the Knicks

Wow... get ready for alot of quotes

it dont matter who plays with marbury anyway, they wont get the ball.

So he averaged 9.2 assists with the knicks by shooting airballs, and the other knicks alley ooped them in? Please.. Marbury does dominate the ball alot, butto say he never passes is a joke.

Would I rather have Marbury or Mohammed have the ball? That's not a fair question.

I think its a resonable question, becuase when Allan Houston was injured, who else was there to goto? To critisise Marbury for dominating the ball too much then say its an unfair question about who would you rather have the ball is a contradiction. Without Houston, last season there was no one else to goto for the knicks apart from marbury...

Of course I'd rather have Marbury with the ball. But the point is the keep the ball moving between all five players--yes, Nazr Mohammed, too--so that the defense has to focus on all five players as a scoring threat, not just one.

I dont. I wouldnt mind seeing Kurt Thomas and Tim Thomas getting some extra looks, but i would rather the bulk of the scoring being handled by Marbury and Houston. If they have to dominate the ball to do so, then so be it. These guys can carry a team, plus it will open things up for both thomas', which will also help their game. Good ball movement rarely works these days.

That's why basketball is the highest scoring team game by far

Um, no. AFL gets higher scores sometimes... (aussie rules, yes it is a sport). I think the 24 second shot clock has a big influence as to why basketball gets high scores as well..

and Marbury hasn't shown that ability yet. And there's a reason why players get traded (And by the way, Pippen played on three teams in 17 seasons and he never got traded, just signed as a free agent and that matters). I call it the Keith Van Horn Effect, where a player who has always put up good to decent numbers get traded because they wore out their welcome. For a brief span on their new team, they play very well, as if the change of scenery was all they needed. But the player got traded for a reason, and the same symptoms show up again (no intensity (i.e. Keith Van Horn) or too selfish, takes bad shots (like Antoine Walker, who just got traded, for the same reasons that got him kicked out of Boston in the first place)). If Marbury doesn't get it right this time, then he has the opportunity to redefine the KVH Effect for all time. I hope he does get it right this time, and doesn't redefine the KVH Effect.

As Andrew said, Pippen was traded. Marbury is not a team cancer however. Before the trade to the knicks, look at what teams had to give up to get him: Sam Cassel and Jason Kidd... thats right, two of the best point guards in the last 5 seasons. Phoenix also gave him a monster contract... he isn't a rubbish player.

Yes, with Marbury and the new players, they are a good playoff team, with maybe one piece away. But they are one good piece away, and the situation they're in right now, they have neither the cap space nor the trade assets to add that one piece.

They may already have that piece in Tim Thomas or Vin Baker.. and you never know who might become available. Who would've thought Tmac or shaq would be traded at the start of last season?

And maybe Allan Houston will be fully healed. And maybe Marbury will start playing like a true point. And maybe Tim Thomas will get his head on straight. And maybe Dampier and Crawford will play hard. And maybe (and this one's a big maybe) Vin Baker won't drink his way out of a career (although he's done that twice already). But that's a lot of maybe's and history's against the Knicks, so...

I'd rather see them at least attempt to get somthing done rather than be in almost the same cap situation, with no chance of making the playoffs, and getting the 10th pick in the draft. Who would they have gotten in this years draft? Luke Jackson?

I live in New York, so I'd like to see them do well. But the series of frustrating trades and signings... I mean, really. There's a difference between being cynical and realistic, and between optimistic and stupid. I'm probably closer to the cynical/realistic side on this one.

Well, great, i live in sydney but im also a knicks fan... but I dont think the situation is that bad. And adding Jamal Crawford isn't a bad move at all. I think he can play, is a good insurance to allan houston, and could even be used as trade bait in the future.

So, we can't trade, we can't sign marquee free agents, so we can't add any more players: we can't add that one more piece until at least 4 to 5 seasons from now.

You wouldn't have been able to sign marquee free agents anyway. I doubt there would have been any great players available for othella harrington and frank williams either.

he got Stephon Marbury and Jamal Crawford....the backcourt from hell (because we all know Houston will be injured). Not enough ball to go around. Craword is getting $55/7 (?)....that's a lot for an inconsistent player thant doesn't play defense and shoots 40%. All Thomas did was get the team to the playoffs and they seem stuck there.....congratulations your mediocre. Instead of getting a TEAM IT is stacking up on individuals. The froncourt is weak to say the least

Oh yeah the backcourt from hell... Marbury sure does suck doesnt he? I guess Iverson sucks, as does tmac, and kobe, and ray allen, and steve francis, and lebron, and carmelo... but darko rulllleezzz!!! ... you say the knicks seem stuck there? Thats without kurt thomas, allan houston and jamal crawford. Vin Baker wasnt active either. This knicks team has the chance to improve.

Nash IMO will be a much better fit with the young team than Marbury even could be. Nash makes that up tempo game even better and instead of having another scorer in there, you have a playmaker. If you've seen Team USA play this year when Marbury is on the court, you'll see why I think Nash will be better than Marbury ever could.

Yeah I'm going to judge a player off pre olympic trial matches, great logic . Just think back to the 2003 suns/spurs series and see how effective marbury was as a sun. He was their leader, not a cancer as some make out.

No Q isn't better than JJ, but he's a good player. He's more depth. Marion or JJ can be used to acquire a big man. If not, then I'm pretty Suns are very happy with Nash/Barbosa/Q/JJ/Marion/Zarko/Jacobsen at the 1,2, and 3. You also fail to forget that the Suns acquired two young Euros, in Maciej Lampe and Milos Vujanic, with both worth at least a future first. Vujanic is one of the top prospects in Europe and for good reason. Lampe is a huge project, but he was projected top 10-15 in the 2003 draft before his buyout got in the way. Not to mention the Suns received a 2004 1st rounder and a future first. If you don't call that ripping a team off, I don't know what is.

Marbury/jj/marion/ penny/ jacobson/ zarko > Nash/Barbosa/Q/JJ/Marion/Zarko/Jacobsen... the suns only got lampe and vujanic out of that deal, and a steve nash who is good at running a team, but not better than marbury. I'd probbaly take penny over quentin richardson as well. the 04 first rounder wont be worth much, the knicks will be in the playoffs. considering all the suns got was cap space which they pretty much wasted, and big project players who have as big a chance of being a bust as they do of being nothing for marbury, a top 5 point guard, then im going to say new york got the better of the deal.

Would you rather have a core of Marbury (who you even admitted is a ball-dominater and another reason why I feel Nash is a much better fit)/Marion/Amare/JJ/Barbosa (+ youngster in Zarko) or a core of Nash/Marion/Amare/JJ/Barbosa/Q, plus youngsters in Zarko, Lampe, Vujanic, 2 1st rounders next year, and a future first somewhere down the line? I think it's a no-brainer here.

Yes, I would. Marbury is alot better than Nash. Lampe and Vujanic might not do anything, and who knows what will happen next year? the pick they recieve from new york might not even be top 20... that for marbury? not good... and from new yorks perspective, its great! becuase they wouldnt have been able to get nash via free agency, so they got marbury for project players.

1) Payroll, that's pretty self-explanatory when the NBA cap is at 43 million and you're over 100 million. 2) Prospects. Whether they develop or not, you're looking into the future. Sorry, I don't see it for either team, thus why I would keep the prospects so maybe the Knicks can compete for the future. You're giving up as I said earlier, at least 4 1st rounders. So what are the Knicks left with? No future (no prospects except for Sweetney, no draft picks, no salary, except for the MLE). They're a win right now team. Do you really think they're going to win it all with Marbury/Crawford/Houston (see a problem there already)/TT (another problem)/KT (now that's a stud)/Nazr/and Mike Sweetney, not to mention Lenny as coach?

Their hands were tied with the cap anyway, so trading for marbury wasnt bad at all. I don't think they will win it all, but at least they are progressing. With the projects they traded for marbury, there is absolutely no gaurantee they will amount to anything... at least with marbury you get an allstar. if lampe and that other guy become superstars, ill admit the knicks did wrong.. but if they dont, i think new york did great in getting marbury.

I've already mentioned the Marbury trade. That's a big one. I thought he made a terrible move by trading KVH and Doleac for TT and Nazr. I like Nazr, but Doleac was Marbury's best pick and pop partner, with KT a close second. Doleac isn't the best player, but for a good 15-20 minutes if utilized correctly, there's a big problem for the defense. Secondly, Marbury needs spot up shooters to pass to off the pick and roll. KVH was one. TT is not. Marbury getting a pick from Doleac can either pass to Doleac for an 18 footer, take the jumper, or drive the basket, where he has a few options, among them go for the layup, or drive-and-dish. What did Nazr do? Upgrade the defense and rebounding, take away some offense. What did TT do? Add to the fast break, another creator, but his defense is as bad as KVH's and Marbury no longer has that solid spot up shooter to pass to. However, if he never traded for Marbury, I wouldn't have a problem with this trade.

So you think Doleac is a good shooter that extends the defense, but tt isnt? lol ok... . Kurt Thomas can be Marbury's pick and pop partner... thomas has a nice shot from either baseline. And if you think allan houston isnt a good spot up shooter, then i suggest you watch some gametape. He is as good a shooter as there is in the nba.

Finally, I'm not sold on this JC trade. Again, if Marbury was never acquired, this trade wouldn't be all that bad. For starters, there go your expiring contracts. Ok, you're in the biggest market for pratically anything, but that still doesn't justify being 50 million over the cap. Heck, in 3 years, they'll be over the cap even with only 6 players under guaranteed contract. Is some of this IT's fault? No. He didn't sign Anderson or Houston, but is it his job to lower that salary figure? Yes. If I'm Dolan, I would be losing sleep over the player salaries when compared to the quality. Secondly, I don't see a Marbury/JC or JC/Houston backcourt working, especially not with Tim Thomas there. I'll reiterate that Marbury needs spot up shooters to pass to, especially off the pick and roll. JC and TT are at their best creating their own shots (while forgetting about teammates). They're mediocre spot-up shooters. I can also see a major problem with sharing the ball, knowing the rep of the players.

Crawford won't be starting... and he isnt going to be the superstar new york needs.. however, he doesnt hurt them. Trading for marbury doesnt hurt them becuase even with the expiring contracts, they would still be over the cap. and im not dolan, so i dont care about how much money it costs him..

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he got Stephon Marbury and Jamal Crawford....the backcourt from hell (because we all know Houston will be injured). Not enough ball to go around. Craword is getting $55/7 (?)....that's a lot for an inconsistent player thant doesn't play defense and shoots 40%. All Thomas did was get the team to the playoffs and they seem stuck there.....congratulations your mediocre. Instead of getting a TEAM IT is stacking up on individuals. The froncourt is weak to say the least

Oh yeah the backcourt from hell... Marbury sure does suck doesnt he? I guess Iverson sucks, as does tmac, and kobe, and ray allen, and steve francis, and lebron, and carmelo... but darko rulllleezzz!!! ... you say the knicks seem stuck there? Thats without kurt thomas, allan houston and jamal crawford. Vin Baker wasnt active either. This knicks team has the chance to improve.

Marbury doesn't suck...in fact, he's a very good player (as the playoff series against the Spurs proved) All i'm saying is that if he ever wants success (NBA Title) he's gonna have to make big sacrifices....hold on to less of the ball and shoot less. Crawford will have to do the same and improve his D. Until then the Knicks are merely a playoff team, they might go deep if lucky but i doubt anyone will take them seriously.

ok i can admit that marbury is a good player(still think he is a hog but thats a later topic) but if anyone thinks that the signing of vin baker is a good thing is a fool. vin baker is god awful. i would be that he starts this season with a bang and everyone in NY is bragging how they got him so cheap then by the all star break they are ready to string him up by his toes and shake him til they get thier money back. i am from boston, i saw how good he was for us at the start. hell i actually was singing his praise but then he turned south just like always. the only reason i see them takeing baker and forgetting about dampier is they didnt think they could actually get him.

Nash IMO will be a much better fit with the young team than Marbury even could be. Nash makes that up tempo game even better and instead of having another scorer in there, you have a playmaker. If you've seen Team USA play this year when Marbury is on the court, you'll see why I think Nash will be better than Marbury ever could.

Yeah I'm going to judge a player off pre olympic trial matches, great logic . Just think back to the 2003 suns/spurs series and see how effective marbury was as a sun. He was their leader, not a cancer as some make out.

You're obviously missing my point. Nash is as good of a glue for a talented out there as you can you get, only 2nd to Kidd. Marbury needs to be on a team where he is the clear cut star and he can do his own thing.

No Q isn't better than JJ, but he's a good player. He's more depth. Marion or JJ can be used to acquire a big man. If not, then I'm pretty Suns are very happy with Nash/Barbosa/Q/JJ/Marion/Zarko/Jacobsen at the 1,2, and 3. You also fail to forget that the Suns acquired two young Euros, in Maciej Lampe and Milos Vujanic, with both worth at least a future first. Vujanic is one of the top prospects in Europe and for good reason. Lampe is a huge project, but he was projected top 10-15 in the 2003 draft before his buyout got in the way. Not to mention the Suns received a 2004 1st rounder and a future first. If you don't call that ripping a team off, I don't know what is.

Marbury/jj/marion/ penny/ jacobson/ zarko > Nash/Barbosa/Q/JJ/Marion/Zarko/Jacobsen... the suns only got lampe and vujanic out of that deal, and a steve nash who is good at running a team, but not better than marbury. I'd probbaly take penny over quentin richardson as well. the 04 first rounder wont be worth much, the knicks will be in the playoffs. considering all the suns got was cap space which they pretty much wasted, and big project players who have as big a chance of being a bust as they do of being nothing for marbury, a top 5 point guard, then im going to say new york got the better of the deal.

Wow, just wow. "Only got Lampe and Vujanic." Only. Marbury is the better player easily, but Nash is the better point guard and floor general. Easily. I don't see how this is being questioned at all. Penny over Q? Not only Q younger, the better scorer now, better rebounder, the far more dynamic player, the player with more potential, the better post scorer, Penny has a bigger contract money wise for 2 years, although Q's contract is longer. The 04 first rounder already happened, I don't know how it "wont be worth much." The Suns cleared up cap space by dealing it and have Q and Nash as a result. I don't see how the Suns wasted cap space when they got Quentin Richardson and Steve Nash with it. How is that wasting it? If each breaks a knee tomorrow, I'll admit they wasted it. Lampe and Vujanic might be "project" players (although Vujanic is hardly a project), but they are worth a ton right now. Vujanic probably at least a 1st rounder, if not 2, and Lampe around 1. That's smart management.

Take away Vujanic and Lampe, and I would still take a Nash led squad over a Marbury lead squad. Especially when you have Q. And Marion, JJ, and Amare, all qualified scorers, 2 of whom can easily be your #1 option.

Would you rather have a core of Marbury (who you even admitted is a ball-dominater and another reason why I feel Nash is a much better fit)/Marion/Amare/JJ/Barbosa (+ youngster in Zarko) or a core of Nash/Marion/Amare/JJ/Barbosa/Q, plus youngsters in Zarko, Lampe, Vujanic, 2 1st rounders next year, and a future first somewhere down the line? I think it's a no-brainer here.

Yes, I would. Marbury is alot better than Nash. Lampe and Vujanic might not do anything, and who knows what will happen next year? the pick they recieve from new york might not even be top 20... that for marbury? not good... and from new yorks perspective, its great! becuase they wouldnt have been able to get nash via free agency, so they got marbury for project players.

Again, Marbury is the better player and scorer than Nash, but Nash is by far the better passer, floor general, and leader. Here, I'll take a page out of your book. If you don't agree, "i suggest you watch some gametape."

"the pick they recieve from new york might not even be top 20... that for marbury?"
You keep breaking each part of the deal up as if that was the only thing the Knicks got in return for Marbury. Let's see what the Suns received: Eisley, Ward, McDyess, Lampe, Vujanic, 04 1st rounder, future conditional 1st rounder, plus cap space the cap space that resulted. What did they use the cap space on? Q and Nash. So it's a Marbury, Penny, Cezary for Eisley, Lampe, Vujanic, 04 1st rounder, future conditional, Q, and Nash. I would take Q and Nash over Marbury easy. For a young, dynamic team like the Suns. Add at least the value of 4 future 1st rounders? I'm pretty sure the conditional first rounder will go for a few years, with each year the condition growing smaller and smaller. Standard NBA stuff. Plus, it's not just "that for marbury."

1) Payroll, that's pretty self-explanatory when the NBA cap is at 43 million and you're over 100 million. 2) Prospects. Whether they develop or not, you're looking into the future. Sorry, I don't see it for either team, thus why I would keep the prospects so maybe the Knicks can compete for the future. You're giving up as I said earlier, at least 4 1st rounders. So what are the Knicks left with? No future (no prospects except for Sweetney, no draft picks, no salary, except for the MLE). They're a win right now team. Do you really think they're going to win it all with Marbury/Crawford/Houston (see a problem there already)/TT (another problem)/KT (now that's a stud)/Nazr/and Mike Sweetney, not to mention Lenny as coach?

Their hands were tied with the cap anyway, so trading for marbury wasnt bad at all. I don't think they will win it all, but at least they are progressing. With the projects they traded for marbury, there is absolutely no gaurantee they will amount to anything... at least with marbury you get an allstar. if lampe and that other guy become superstars, ill admit the knicks did wrong.. but if they dont, i think new york did great in getting marbury.

That's not entirely true. Let's just say they don't make the trade, cut Ward, let Dice walk, kept Eisley (since he has 3 more years). So that means instead of having Marbury and Penny's huge contracts, they have Lampe's and Eisley's. They would be done a whopping 21 million dollars. Would they still be over the luxury tax threshold? Yes. However, instead of already having more salary booked next year, than this year, which is unheard of, they would have saved 24 million for the next year. Are they still over the cap? Yep, thanks to Houston's contract. However, let's look 3 years in the future. Right now, they're over the luxury tax threshold 3 years from now, and that too, is unheard of in the NBA. Let's take a look at where they would stand without this trade. Since Eisley has a team option that year and no team in the right mind would want to keep overpaying the vet at a 7.4 million dollars, I doubt the team would pick it up. Lampe's contract also expires, but that's so small it's pretty insignificant. Well, if they didn't make the trade, in 2006-07 their salary cap would stand at almost 49 million. That's under the luxury tax threshold. When compared to 68 million, which is what is right now. And they would have a top 3 prospect from Europe and the #1 PG over there, in Milos Vujanic come over. I'm not sold on Lampe, but he can be dealt for at least a 1st rounder. Same with Milos if IT wants to rid the team all the white players.

I've already mentioned the Marbury trade. That's a big one. I thought he made a terrible move by trading KVH and Doleac for TT and Nazr. I like Nazr, but Doleac was Marbury's best pick and pop partner, with KT a close second. Doleac isn't the best player, but for a good 15-20 minutes if utilized correctly, there's a big problem for the defense. Secondly, Marbury needs spot up shooters to pass to off the pick and roll. KVH was one. TT is not. Marbury getting a pick from Doleac can either pass to Doleac for an 18 footer, take the jumper, or drive the basket, where he has a few options, among them go for the layup, or drive-and-dish. What did Nazr do? Upgrade the defense and rebounding, take away some offense. What did TT do? Add to the fast break, another creator, but his defense is as bad as KVH's and Marbury no longer has that solid spot up shooter to pass to. However, if he never traded for Marbury, I wouldn't have a problem with this trade.

So you think Doleac is a good shooter that extends the defense, but tt isnt? lol ok... . Kurt Thomas can be Marbury's pick and pop partner... thomas has a nice shot from either baseline. And if you think allan houston isnt a good spot up shooter, then i suggest you watch some gametape. He is as good a shooter as there is in the nba.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I was talking about spot up shooters. Catch and shoot. Can Houston do that? Yes he can. Is that his strength? No. I'd rather ISO him and let him create his own shot, draw double teams, create mismatches for other teammates. I would much rather utilize TT's size and athletic ability by allowing him to create for himself, thus playing to yet another one of his bigger strengths, than having him stand on the baseline and wait for a pass. You can point at what he can, but what are his strengths? You gotta mold your team around what your players do best (check the championship teams), and that's not what the Knicks are doing. It's not about hording all the top players and athletes. Which is again, why I feel Nash is a far better fit than Marbury on the Suns.

Finally, I'm not sold on this JC trade. Again, if Marbury was never acquired, this trade wouldn't be all that bad. For starters, there go your expiring contracts. Ok, you're in the biggest market for pratically anything, but that still doesn't justify being 50 million over the cap. Heck, in 3 years, they'll be over the cap even with only 6 players under guaranteed contract. Is some of this IT's fault? No. He didn't sign Anderson or Houston, but is it his job to lower that salary figure? Yes. If I'm Dolan, I would be losing sleep over the player salaries when compared to the quality. Secondly, I don't see a Marbury/JC or JC/Houston backcourt working, especially not with Tim Thomas there. I'll reiterate that Marbury needs spot up shooters to pass to, especially off the pick and roll. JC and TT are at their best creating their own shots (while forgetting about teammates). They're mediocre spot-up shooters. I can also see a major problem with sharing the ball, knowing the rep of the players.

Crawford won't be starting... and he isnt going to be the superstar new york needs.. however, he doesnt hurt them. Trading for marbury doesnt hurt them becuase even with the expiring contracts, they would still be over the cap. and im not dolan, so i dont care about how much money it costs him..

When did I say JC will start? Teams still sub right? Thus why I said "Marbury/JC" "JC/Houston" and left out Marbury/Houston since everything I've read indicates the starting lineup and JC will backup both the 1 and 2, so he will only come in off the bench. They would still be over the cap for the next 2 years, but not for the 3rd year. Instead, they're over the cap significantly for 3 years now. And yes, of course, 1 season makes the world's difference. I think you will care how much money Dolan spends if and when the Knicks don't win the Finals, have no almost no draft picks, can't re-sign FA's (unless they have Bird's rights) and can't sign FA's unless they use the MLE, which would make the cap situation even worse, and thus, helping my argument even more.

Good debate we have going though .

every post seems to have 3 or 4 quotes in it, then a lengthy reply for each lengthy quote. oh well keep it up, i enjoy reading

Yeah it is good

Marbury needs to be on a team where he is the clear cut star and he can do his own thing.

Thats what he is on the knicks.. and what he was on phoenix. It's not as if Amare or Marion were being suffocating by marbury's play. He made them better, and in turn, they also helped his game.

Wow, just wow. "Only got Lampe and Vujanic." Only. Marbury is the better player easily, but Nash is the better point guard and floor general. Easily. I don't see how this is being questioned at all

Marbury is the better defender, scorer, leader. Playmaking is about equal... i will say this about nash tho: he is better at running a team without scoring, so that does open up more shots for other players... but would you trade ray allen for kirk hinrich? It would open up more shots for rashard lewis and flip murray...

Penny over Q? Not only Q younger, the better scorer now, better rebounder, the far more dynamic player, the player with more potential, the better post scorer, Penny has a bigger contract money wise for 2 years, although Q's contract is longer.

Some of this is true.. but how true? Look at Penny's stats from the playoffs when he was a starter: 16.5 ppg, 5.8 apg, 4.5 rpg.... and thats in the playoffs, when the level of play is at a much higher level. q. will be in a similar role to what penny had in phoenix last season before he was traded, but he isnt as good of a defensive player.. he might hit a few threes, but will it help the suns that much? penny could contribute without the ball.. with limited options for richardson, i dont think he will be as good as penny... i know in the long run richardson will be a better player, but with that longer contract, and nash also aging... the cap room they gave up for marbury might not even be starting in two years.

Lampe and Vujanic might be "project" players (although Vujanic is hardly a project), but they are worth a ton right now. Vujanic probably at least a 1st rounder, if not 2, and Lampe around 1. That's smart management.

Like i said, if they both turn out to be gun players, ill admit that phoenix didnt get ripped in this trade. But as of right now, the only winner i see is new york.

Take away Vujanic and Lampe, and I would still take a Nash led squad over a Marbury lead squad. Especially when you have Q. And Marion, JJ, and Amare, all qualified scorers, 2 of whom can easily be your #1 option.

I wouldn't... Nash can run a team, but so can marbury.. plus marbury can take over a game when he needs too... not many players can do that anymore. I'd take marbury over any point guard in todays nba, except for a healthy kidd, or a healthy cassell... even with cassell i'd have to think about it.. becuase cassell is older.

Again, Marbury is the better player and scorer than Nash, but Nash is by far the better passer, floor general, and leader. Here, I'll take a page out of your book. If you don't agree, "i suggest you watch some gametape."

Nash from 2 seasons ago, compared to this marbury is comparible in terms of leadership. But nash is slipping... if nash was as good as marbury, why do you think dallas just let him walk? mark cuban isnt an idiot. Marbury has the edge in scoring and leadership, as well as defense. Nash is better at running a team without scoring...

btw, i dont hate nash. i get compared to him alot when i play, becuase im white and shoot floaters alot as well. i think he is a good player, but not on marburys level. no way.

Let's see what the Suns received: Eisley, Ward, McDyess, Lampe, Vujanic, 04 1st rounder, future conditional 1st rounder, plus cap space the cap space that resulted. What did they use the cap space on? Q and Nash. So it's a Marbury, Penny, Cezary for Eisley, Lampe, Vujanic, 04 1st rounder, future conditional, Q, and Nash. I would take Q and Nash over Marbury easy.

I said before why i think q and nash arent the same as penny and marbury, plus.. those picks and rookies havent done anything yet. if they do turn out to be good players, phoenix and new york were both winners. if they dont, it comes down to penny/marbury for richardson/nash... and i cant buy into nash being a better player than marbury, especially at this stage of both of their careers.

That's not entirely true. Let's just say they don't make the trade, cut Ward, let Dice walk, kept Eisley (since he has 3 more years).

Imagine if they did let mcydess walk.. after trading nene for him on draft day... imagine the backlash.

So that means instead of having Marbury and Penny's huge contracts, they have Lampe's and Eisley's. They would be done a whopping 21 million dollars. Would they still be over the luxury tax threshold? Yes. However, instead of already having more salary booked next year, than this year, which is unheard of, they would have saved 24 million for the next year. Are they still over the cap? Yep, thanks to Houston's contract. However, let's look 3 years in the future. Right now, they're over the luxury tax threshold 3 years from now, and that too, is unheard of in the NBA. Let's take a look at where they would stand without this trade. Since Eisley has a team option that year and no team in the right mind would want to keep overpaying the vet at a 7.4 million dollars, I doubt the team would pick it up. Lampe's contract also expires, but that's so small it's pretty insignificant. Well, if they didn't make the trade, in 2006-07 their salary cap would stand at almost 49 million. That's under the luxury tax threshold. When compared to 68 million, which is what is right now. And they would have a top 3 prospect from Europe and the #1 PG over there, in Milos Vujanic come over. I'm not sold on Lampe, but he can be dealt for at least a 1st rounder. Same with Milos if IT wants to rid the team all the white players.

Like you said, they would be still over the damn cap... what would they do? they wouldnt have marbury, nothing to show for the traded pick of nene, and for what?vujanic instead of marbury... i love prospects, but to say the knicks would be in better shape with vujanic than marbury is ridiculous..

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I was talking about spot up shooters. Catch and shoot. Can Houston do that? Yes he can. Is that his strength? No. I'd rather ISO him and let him create his own shot, draw double teams, create mismatches for other teammates. I would much rather utilize TT's size and athletic ability by allowing him to create for himself, thus playing to yet another one of his bigger strengths, than having him stand on the baseline and wait for a pass. You can point at what he can, but what are his strengths? You gotta mold your team around what your players do best (check the championship teams), and that's not what the Knicks are doing. It's not about hording all the top players and athletes. Which is again, why I feel Nash is a far better fit than Marbury on the Suns.

But marbury is a much better creater than tt and allan houston. Tim Thomas was a really good shooter in milwalkee, plus he could defend ok. i remember he gave iverson some problems in game 7 for a few possesions, but iverson was crazy in that game and he still managed to score alot. You can say "allan houston and tim thomas are better when they create" but how is this possible? there is only one ball to go around that team, and not everyone can create their own shot... and even if (im not admitting he is, but hypothetically) nash is a better fit then marbury, new york never had the chance to get nash, so theres no way new york got ripped off by landing marbury for what they gave up.

i'll stay out of the battle of the matts...

andrew... maybe this is a moot point since the trade is done but i'll extend the courtesy of replying- i don't think at any point the bulls were in danger of losing crawford for nothing. all the teams except for atl couldn't offer more then the MLE.

eugene...
-jason kidd has had his fair share of changing uniforms and way more then his fair share of head coaches
-what exactly were you expecting out of crawford? the bulls didn't exactly do a great job developing him: didn't play his rookie year, tore his ACL (and returned early to finish off the season strong) his 2nd year. the bulls in the following year named him the teams starting pg heading into camp and promptly drafted jay williams. then came hinrich this year and the trade that left the bulls with no offense but crawford...
(also this response is for those who say he is a ballhog and team cancer) it's easy to point the finger, and/or look at the numbers and come to the conclusion that the team's leading scorer is to blame here. but you need to factor in that eddy curry, who was supposed to be the #1 option, took half a season to get in shape, skiles inconsistent player rotations and grade school offense schemes, and with the exception of hinrich, no perimeter help. 5.1apg is pretty good considering he shared the pg duties w/hinrich, played on the offensively challenged bulls, and that antonio davis is the worst finisher underneath the basket
-as far as crawford's defense, i will say that he could be doing a better job. but he did have his moments defending a position where he had no previous experience (i.e- lebron james). also i'd like to add that the bulls were pretty poor defending every position on the court, including PG's, despite the God-like treatment hinrich gets from skiles
-what quality FA will come to chicago with this money they saved in this trade? the best they've done since the rebuilding started was donyell marshall, who at the time no one wanted to take a chance on. besides, as mentioned by someone earlier, the supposed franchise players contracts are up.
-about duhon, i agree w/fan of all here. duhon has been crap since jay went nba (and highly rumored to have a problem with the bottle). paxson could have at least not be redundant and actually make a pick that fills a need (a legit sized sg) or take a gamble on a high risk/reward type of player with 2nd round pick
-i don't buy this character business either. you still need the talent to win. or at least not to be a frequent guest at the lottery selection. the bulls before this trade had enough character guys with little or no talent. did antonio davis make eddy curry a better defender in the post/stay in shape all year? did linton johnson keep chandler's back healthy? and what about super character jay williams and his motorcycle tragedy? or ben gordon hitting his girlfriend when he was still at uconn? crawford no character/team attitude? what about those times he tied or lead the team with trenton hassel in offseason workouts or coming back early from ACL injury?

stack... want to see an overpaid 6th man? look at brian cardinal who dreams to be that high on the depth chart or go see steve nash in a few years.


on the trade...
the more i think about it, the more shitty it looks. the bulls give up their leading scorer for "cap space"? JYD's contract is ~18mil for the next 3yrs. The shit contracts are AD and ERob, who are owed ~38mil over the next years.

Pax could have at least kept crawford for one more year so gordon can get his feet wet before taking on such a big scoring load. (can you say fantasy sleeper, gentle ben?)

the bulls biggest needs heading into the offseason was SG, SF, big men depth. i'll give props to pax for addressing 2 of those.

but 3/4 of last season, a draft, and a big trade later, still no legit sized SG. gordo is nice, but with the exception of the 89 &90 detroit pistons, no other team in recent nba history has won the championship or seriously contended for the championship with a small backcourt.

what's left out there? calbert chaney? rodney white? and do they even want to come here for minimum salary

i'll stay out of the battle of the matts...

andrew... maybe this is a moot point since the trade is done but i'll extend the courtesy of replying- i don't think at any point the bulls were in danger of losing crawford for nothing. all the teams except for atl couldn't offer more then the MLE.

eugene...
-jason kidd has had his fair share of changing uniforms and way more then his fair share of head coaches
-what exactly were you expecting out of crawford? the bulls didn't exactly do a great job developing him: didn't play his rookie year, tore his ACL (and returned early to finish off the season strong) his 2nd year. the bulls in the following year named him the teams starting pg heading into camp and promptly drafted jay williams. then came hinrich this year and the trade that left the bulls with no offense but crawford...
(also this response is for those who say he is a ballhog and team cancer) it's easy to point the finger, and/or look at the numbers and come to the conclusion that the team's leading scorer is to blame here. but you need to factor in that eddy curry, who was supposed to be the #1 option, took half a season to get in shape, skiles inconsistent player rotations and grade school offense schemes, and with the exception of hinrich, no perimeter help. 5.1apg is pretty good considering he shared the pg duties w/hinrich, played on the offensively challenged bulls, and that antonio davis is the worst finisher underneath the basket
-as far as crawford's defense, i will say that he could be doing a better job. but he did have his moments defending a position where he had no previous experience (i.e- lebron james). also i'd like to add that the bulls were pretty poor defending every position on the court, including PG's, despite the God-like treatment hinrich gets from skiles
-what quality FA will come to chicago with this money they saved in this trade? the best they've done since the rebuilding started was donyell marshall, who at the time no one wanted to take a chance on. besides, as mentioned by someone earlier, the supposed franchise players contracts are up.
-about duhon, i agree w/fan of all here. duhon has been crap since jay went nba (and highly rumored to have a problem with the bottle). paxson could have at least not be redundant and actually make a pick that fills a need (a legit sized sg) or take a gamble on a high risk/reward type of player with 2nd round pick
-i don't buy this character business either. you still need the talent to win. or at least not to be a frequent guest at the lottery selection. the bulls before this trade had enough character guys with little or no talent. did antonio davis make eddy curry a better defender in the post/stay in shape all year? did linton johnson keep chandler's back healthy? and what about super character jay williams and his motorcycle tragedy? or ben gordon hitting his girlfriend when he was still at uconn? crawford no character/team attitude? what about those times he tied or lead the team with trenton hassel in offseason workouts or coming back early from ACL injury?

stack... want to see an overpaid 6th man? look at brian cardinal who dreams to be that high on the depth chart or go see steve nash in a few years.


on the trade...
the more i think about it, the more shitty it looks. the bulls give up their leading scorer for "cap space"? JYD's contract is ~18mil for the next 3yrs. The shit contracts are AD and ERob, who are owed ~38mil over the next years.

Pax could have at least kept crawford for one more year so gordon can get his feet wet before taking on such a big scoring load. (can you say fantasy sleeper, gentle ben?)

the bulls biggest needs heading into the offseason was SG, SF, big men depth. i'll give props to pax for addressing 2 of those.

but 3/4 of last season, a draft, and a big trade later, still no legit sized SG. gordo is nice, but with the exception of the 89 &90 detroit pistons, no other team in recent nba history has won the championship or seriously contended for the championship with a small backcourt.

what's left out there? calbert chaney? rodney white? and do they even want to come here for minimum salary

Marbury needs to be on a team where he is the clear cut star and he can do his own thing.

Thats what he is on the knicks.. and what he was on phoenix. It's not as if Amare or Marion were being suffocating by marbury's play. He made them better, and in turn, they also helped his game.

He was only sorta of his own clear cut star in PHO. And yes, he was suffocating the two (and JJ) a little. Marbury was traded in January and that was when JJ exploded.

Wow, just wow. "Only got Lampe and Vujanic." Only. Marbury is the better player easily, but Nash is the better point guard and floor general. Easily. I don't see how this is being questioned at all

Marbury is the better defender, scorer, leader. Playmaking is about equal... i will say this about nash tho: he is better at running a team without scoring, so that does open up more shots for other players... but would you trade ray allen for kirk hinrich? It would open up more shots for rashard lewis and flip murray...

Honestly, I believe Nash is the better leader. Who has Marbury clashed with in the past? KG, KVH...I'm blanking here. You said it yourself, Nash is better at running a team without scoring, which is exactly, IMO, what the Suns need. I prefer a pure point over a scoring point for the young Suns. BTW, that Allen for Hinrich trade doesn't work under the CBA (sorry had to point that out ). However, would I make that trade? No because Allen is a very good playmaker himself. Secondly, the Sonics don't need a point guard (with Daniels who played excellent last season, best perimeter defender too, and Ridnour), as well as Flip who can get by for some minutes. Plus, if I was in control of that team, Lewis and Radmanovic would be on the market. Pity some wannabe Kings/Mavs FO people are in control of it.

Penny over Q? Not only Q younger, the better scorer now, better rebounder, the far more dynamic player, the player with more potential, the better post scorer, Penny has a bigger contract money wise for 2 years, although Q's contract is longer.

Some of this is true.. but how true? Look at Penny's stats from the playoffs when he was a starter: 16.5 ppg, 5.8 apg, 4.5 rpg.... and thats in the playoffs, when the level of play is at a much higher level. q. will be in a similar role to what penny had in phoenix last season before he was traded, but he isnt as good of a defensive player.. he might hit a few threes, but will it help the suns that much? penny could contribute without the ball.. with limited options for richardson, i dont think he will be as good as penny... i know in the long run richardson will be a better player, but with that longer contract, and nash also aging... the cap room they gave up for marbury might not even be starting in two years.

Yes, Penny had some nice stats, but let's take a look at his regular season stats with the Knicks. 9.6 ppg (on 39% FG shooting), 4.5 boards, 1.9 assists, and 1.6 TO's in 29 mpg. Not very impressive. You make the playoffs by winning in the regular season and while you certainly don't want a choker, you do want someone who can contribute to his 14-15 million dollar contract for more than just one series. The other problem with Penny? Durability.
Honestly, from a Suns' standpoint, I am drooling over the idea of Q on the floor with Nash, Amare, and JJ or the Matrix. That is the epitome of dynamic. Q isn't the same defender Penny is, but he's a younger, more explosive, dynamic scorer, and he can do it everywhere (like Penny in the younger days). Top 3 post up guards in the league. One of the best rebounding guards in the league as well.

Lampe and Vujanic might be "project" players (although Vujanic is hardly a project), but they are worth a ton right now. Vujanic probably at least a 1st rounder, if not 2, and Lampe around 1. That's smart management.

Like i said, if they both turn out to be gun players, ill admit that phoenix didnt get ripped in this trade. But as of right now, the only winner i see is new york.

That's cool. That's your take. Honestly, I feel pairing Nash and Q with the lineup is significantly better than Marbury and Penny. Even without the picks and the value the youngsters have.

Take away Vujanic and Lampe, and I would still take a Nash led squad over a Marbury lead squad. Especially when you have Q. And Marion, JJ, and Amare, all qualified scorers, 2 of whom can easily be your #1 option.

I wouldn't... Nash can run a team, but so can marbury.. plus marbury can take over a game when he needs too... not many players can do that anymore. I'd take marbury over any point guard in todays nba, except for a healthy kidd, or a healthy cassell... even with cassell i'd have to think about it.. becuase cassell is older.

Another difference of opinon. IMO Nash runs a team far better than Marbury. Not to mention you don't need a PG to be taking over the way JJ and Amare played last season. Marbury's an awesome player, but not one if I were building a team.

Again, Marbury is the better player and scorer than Nash, but Nash is by far the better passer, floor general, and leader. Here, I'll take a page out of your book. If you don't agree, "i suggest you watch some gametape."

Nash from 2 seasons ago, compared to this marbury is comparible in terms of leadership. But nash is slipping... if nash was as good as marbury, why do you think dallas just let him walk? mark cuban isnt an idiot. Marbury has the edge in scoring and leadership, as well as defense. Nash is better at running a team without scoring...

Nope Cuban isn't an idiot. He wanted Nash back. However, he has a huge payroll, standing at $87 million. He's another strange case in the NBA where you don't see a team over the salary cap when you look 3 years into the future. He spends a lot of money already and matching the contract the Suns offered Nash would be crazy from his standpoint. He just can't do it.

btw, i dont hate nash. i get compared to him alot when i play, becuase im white and shoot floaters alot as well. i think he is a good player, but not on marburys level. no way.

Lol, that's funny. Nash isn't on Marbury's level, I agree, but making trades in the NBA isn't all about key player vs key player. It's about how the new acquisitions fit on your team (and how the ones you say bye to didn't or did) and also the other pieces you receive in the trade. When I look at the entire chalupa, I see a better fit, more talent (including Q, prospects, draft picks), and no salary cap hell. That basically sums up why I feel the Suns robbed the bank here.

Let's see what the Suns received: Eisley, Ward, McDyess, Lampe, Vujanic, 04 1st rounder, future conditional 1st rounder, plus cap space the cap space that resulted. What did they use the cap space on? Q and Nash. So it's a Marbury, Penny, Cezary for Eisley, Lampe, Vujanic, 04 1st rounder, future conditional, Q, and Nash. I would take Q and Nash over Marbury easy.

I said before why i think q and nash arent the same as penny and marbury, plus.. those picks and rookies havent done anything yet. if they do turn out to be good players, phoenix and new york were both winners. if they dont, it comes down to penny/marbury for richardson/nash... and i cant buy into nash being a better player than marbury, especially at this stage of both of their careers.

I have never cared if Vujanic, Lampe and the 2 first rounders amount to anything. I feel Q and Nash not only outweigh Marbury and Penny as players (Marbury > Nash, Q > Penny, bigger difference in the 2nd comparison), but they are far better fits. Plus, guys like Lampe with a skillset like his, will hold a lot of value for a long time. Even if he's on the bench for the 3 years, playing 5 mpg, I wouldn't doubt he could still get a 1st rounders.

That's not entirely true. Let's just say they don't make the trade, cut Ward, let Dice walk, kept Eisley (since he has 3 more years).

Imagine if they did let mcydess walk.. after trading nene for him on draft day... imagine the backlash.

Would he have stayed to start with? They didn't have his Bird's rights IIRC and as a team already in salary cap hell, would you really match the offer Detroit gave? Probably have to exceed as well. So the chances of keeping him weren't exactly high. Plus, I calculated Dice leaving because that is what the Suns did.

So that means instead of having Marbury and Penny's huge contracts, they have Lampe's and Eisley's. They would be done a whopping 21 million dollars. Would they still be over the luxury tax threshold? Yes. However, instead of already having more salary booked next year, than this year, which is unheard of, they would have saved 24 million for the next year. Are they still over the cap? Yep, thanks to Houston's contract. However, let's look 3 years in the future. Right now, they're over the luxury tax threshold 3 years from now, and that too, is unheard of in the NBA. Let's take a look at where they would stand without this trade. Since Eisley has a team option that year and no team in the right mind would want to keep overpaying the vet at a 7.4 million dollars, I doubt the team would pick it up. Lampe's contract also expires, but that's so small it's pretty insignificant. Well, if they didn't make the trade, in 2006-07 their salary cap would stand at almost 49 million. That's under the luxury tax threshold. When compared to 68 million, which is what is right now. And they would have a top 3 prospect from Europe and the #1 PG over there, in Milos Vujanic come over. I'm not sold on Lampe, but he can be dealt for at least a 1st rounder. Same with Milos if IT wants to rid the team all the white players.

Like you said, they would be still over the damn cap... what would they do? they wouldnt have marbury, nothing to show for the traded pick of nene, and for what?vujanic instead of marbury... i love prospects, but to say the knicks would be in better shape with vujanic than marbury is ridiculous..

But I said more than that they'd be over the cap. They'd get off it sooner. And with two other offseasons between now and when they get under the cap, I wouldn't be surprised if they use that MLE again and end up over the salary cap for another 4 seasons, considering the spend-friendly person IT is. No Marbury, nothing to show for trading Nene, but at least there's a future! One big stumbling block IT has come up in sign and trade deals (notably w/the Warriors) is who is he going to trade? If the player is above average, he probably has a huge contract or is untouchable. If the player sucks, he also has a huge contract. Whose fault is that? Not Zeke's. However, he traded away 2 prospects and 2 future 1sts, so he can't trade any more prospects or future 1sts away. Sweetney (because he's black? ) is another untouchable that doesn't really fall anywhere. IT wants Dampier (after finally producing instead of underachieving), but he can't. Why? Because he handicapped himself. Traded away most of his expiring contracts to the Bulls, the prospects and draft picks to the Suns. Why would you want Dampier when you have Mohammed and Thomas anyways. Sheesh.
And when did I say the part that was bolded? I don't think I a) implied it at all and if I did b) of course it wasn't just Vujanic considering the entire paragraph was concerning the salary cap.

Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I was talking about spot up shooters. Catch and shoot. Can Houston do that? Yes he can. Is that his strength? No. I'd rather ISO him and let him create his own shot, draw double teams, create mismatches for other teammates. I would much rather utilize TT's size and athletic ability by allowing him to create for himself, thus playing to yet another one of his bigger strengths, than having him stand on the baseline and wait for a pass. You can point at what he can, but what are his strengths? You gotta mold your team around what your players do best (check the championship teams), and that's not what the Knicks are doing. It's not about hording all the top players and athletes. Which is again, why I feel Nash is a far better fit than Marbury on the Suns.

But marbury is a much better creater than tt and allan houston. Tim Thomas was a really good shooter in milwalkee, plus he could defend ok. i remember he gave iverson some problems in game 7 for a few possesions, but iverson was crazy in that game and he still managed to score alot. You can say "allan houston and tim thomas are better when they create" but how is this possible? there is only one ball to go around that team, and not everyone can create their own shot... and even if (im not admitting he is, but hypothetically) nash is a better fit then marbury, new york never had the chance to get nash, so theres no way new york got ripped off by landing marbury for what they gave up.

Of course Marbury is the better creator than TT and Houston. Which is why the ball is in his hands most of the time regardless of positions. I don't know which point you were rebutting, but I have a guess and I'll get back to that. If by "defend ok" you mean just barely average, then ok I have nothing wrong with that. TT is nothing special on defense...it's also nothing special to give someone fits for a few possessions. Heck, Tyronn Lue did that to AI, and how's his defense today? Total crap, until JVG gets to him. Ok, back to my guess...I don't believe you fully understand my point (or likely I didn't word if very well), not too sure, but let's see:

You can say "allan houston and tim thomas are better when they create" but how is this possible? there is only one ball to go around that team, and not everyone can create their own shot...

I think you misinterpret my meaning. Houston and Thomas are better when they get to create their own shot. Instead of having Marbury, the better creator, create for them. On the other hand, someone KVH thrives with Marbury because he just catches the ball and shoots. Houston and TT's strengths are not the catch and shoot, but using whatever they have (for Houston his intelligence, ability to create space btwn himself and the defender; for Thomas, his athletic ability, size, length, first step) to make their own shot. I don't precisely remember the root of this argument, but I believe it was the KVH + Doleac for Thomas and Mohammed. No arguments between Mohammed and Doleac on defense and rebounding, but KVH is simply the superior fit with Marbury because he's the better spot up shooter. He's not really someone you want to ISO with the clock ticking and have him try to score. You want Marbury (or Kidd) to be creating then pass to him for an open jumper as the clock expires. That's what he's good at. TT, on the other hand, is someone you want to put the ball in the hands of, if he's your star player (if so, man, I feel sorry, ditto to KVH). Get my drift? There is only one basketball, but that's another story. I'm talking about how the players mesh with each other on the court. JC has the same problem. He's a good shooter when he creates his own shot.

and even if (im not admitting he is, but hypothetically) nash is a better fit then marbury, new york never had the chance to get nash, so theres no way new york got ripped off by landing marbury for what they gave up.

That last comment I made "Which is again, why I feel Nash is a far better fit than Marbury on the Suns." not directed at Nash or Marbury in NY. I can see why you rebutted at that, and I apologize for making that confusing. That comment was just my mind drifting because I mentioned "You gotta mold your team around what your players do best (check the championship teams), and that's not what the Knicks are doing. It's not about hording all the top players and athletes." and so in my mind I thought "And that's why Nash is better than Marbury in PHO." So I typed it . Nothing at all to do with NY's situation. Just goes back to the PHO-NYK trade/the way the players fit.

Meh, too lazy to edit my post. Apologies to anyone who is anal and minds (usually that's me).

i'll stay out of the battle of the matts...

Eh? Whose name is Matt? Not mine

on the trade...
the more i think about it, the more shitty it looks. the bulls give up their leading scorer for "cap space"? JYD's contract is ~18mil for the next 3yrs. The shit contracts are AD and ERob, who are owed ~38mil over the next years.

JYD's contract is worse than E-Rob. E-Rob makes more, but the simple fact that JYD has one more year makes it worse (two more if you can't the team option but no one in the right mind would pick that up).

the bulls biggest needs heading into the offseason was SG, SF, big men depth. i'll give props to pax for addressing 2 of those.

I don't know if Pax really addressed the SG position or not. Is Gordon the answer? 6'2 and 1/2 or was it 3/4? Either way, that's some bad mismatches we're going to be seeing. Also, whose behind him? E-Rob, who gets put into Skiles' doghouse for 3 months, let out for 1 day, then put back in for 6 weeks? I do feel Deng can play there for 10 mpg, depending on who he's matched up against. However, against a lot of teams, that's not going to work very well. Neither he nor Nocioni are laterally quick enough to be guarding a good bunch of the 2's in the league.

Also, has big man depth really been improved? The status of Deke right now is unknown (both the will to play in Chicago and the possible trade for Pike), other than that, the only new faces are Harrington (not all that great) and Cezary (scrub). Mario Austin signed in Europe as well...

calbert chaney? rodney white? and do they even want to come here for minimum salary

Cheaney is one name I've heard floating around...White is interested in the Kings and Pacers. I would welcome Cheaney.

JYD's contract is worse than E-Rob. E-Rob makes more, but the simple fact that JYD has one more year makes it worse (two more if you can't the team option but no one in the right mind would pick that up).

i'm not sure if i can agree there. erob as you said is doghouse bound while at least JYD is contributing and more importantly giving effort- a resume must in pax and skiles book. even if JYD is still wearing toronto shorts under whatever team he plays for, i'd rather have him then ERob and his splintered ass

I don't know if Pax really addressed the SG position or not.

i wasn't implying that. hinrich/gordo backcourt with curry in the middle should have opposing guards drooling

Also, has big man depth really been improved? The status of Deke right now is unknown (both the will to play in Chicago and the possible trade for Pike), other than that, the only new faces are Harrington (not all that great) and Cezary (scrub). Mario Austin signed in Europe as well

imo:
curry, chandler, davis, harrington, nocioni, t smith? > curry, davis, jyd, doghouse fizer, injured chandler, shirley, whoever

at least harrington breaks up the cycle of pf who can't score off the bench

Cheaney is one name I've heard floating around...White is interested in the Kings and Pacers. I would welcome Cheaney.

thanks for the update. missed a lot while on the nba news while on vacation this past weekend

JYD's contract is worse than E-Rob. E-Rob makes more, but the simple fact that JYD has one more year makes it worse (two more if you can't the team option but no one in the right mind would pick that up).

i'm not sure if i can agree there. erob as you said is doghouse bound while at least JYD is contributing and more importantly giving effort- a resume must in pax and skiles book. even if JYD is still wearing toronto shorts under whatever team he plays for, i'd rather have him then ERob and his splintered ass

I was only talking about their contracts straight up, but JYD does have a better production:$$$ ratio, that's true. Honestly, I think E-Rob plays ok. I hope he gets more play time. He's so talented, just a terrible head on those two shoulders.

i wasn't implying that. hinrich/gordo backcourt with curry in the middle should have opposing guards drooling

Ah my fault. But that is very true...especially if Curry doesn't get to the 285 they want him at.

imo:
curry, chandler, davis, harrington, nocioni, t smith? > curry, davis, jyd, doghouse fizer, injured chandler, shirley, whoever

at least harrington breaks up the cycle of pf who can't score off the bench

Fizer couldn't score off the bench? He was just a black hole...well "just" lol. He could score, another talented player I wish had some more chances. I'm not a big fan of either Fizer or E-Rob, but there's a reason Fizer was drafted 4th and E-Rob given his fat contract.

T Smith? Theron Smith the ex-Grizz present Bobcat?? I don't think Nocioini is really a 30 mpg PF. He is a SF/PF combo but I don't think he can handle PF's for a long duration, at least not most of them.

I still don't feel the big man depth has improved all that much, if at all, very minorly. We lose an energy guy, get a post scorer who has some brain matter, but if Deke stays and plays 10-15 mpg, then I would consider an upgrade.

thanks for the update. missed a lot while on the nba news while on vacation this past weekend

Not a problem .

andrew... maybe this is a moot point since the trade is done but i'll extend the courtesy of replying- i don't think at any point the bulls were in danger of losing crawford for nothing. all the teams except for atl couldn't offer more then the MLE.

That's true. I guess any danger of losing Crawford for nothing was more a case of Pax being unwilling to work a sign-and-trade or/and then match any offer made by another team.

stack... want to see an overpaid 6th man? look at brian cardinal who dreams to be that high on the depth chart or go see steve nash in a few years.

No doubt both are overpaid. Nash however will do good in Phoenix for about 3 or so years and Cardinals worth ethic IMO was worth the risk of such a contract

Fizer couldn't score off the bench? He was just a black hole...well "just" lol. He could score, another talented player I wish had some more chances. I'm not a big fan of either Fizer or E-Rob, but there's a reason Fizer was drafted 4th and E-Rob given his fat contract.

T Smith? Theron Smith the ex-Grizz present Bobcat?? I don't think Nocioini is really a 30 mpg PF. He is a SF/PF combo but I don't think he can handle PF's for a long duration, at least not most of them.

I still don't feel the big man depth has improved all that much, if at all, very minorly. We lose an energy guy, get a post scorer who has some brain matter, but if Deke stays and plays 10-15 mpg, then I would consider an upgrade.

fizer could score but never got consistent mintues under skiles. imo he isn't fully recovered from his knee injury. sure he was the 4th pick, but i think the bulls ruined him. i really don't want to open this discussion up, but i will say that the bulls were the only team that gave eRob such a lucrative deal.

tsmith= tommy smith. showed some good defensive instincts and athelticsim in SL

i don't think nocioni is a full time pf either. i just think he can give some quality minutes there.

overall i think there's improvement in big men depth based solely on the fact that chandler is healthy. last year it was JYD-linton johnson-dupree coming in off the bench at the power positions

now davis gets to return to the role he was brought in to do- come off the bench at either pf or c. harrington is decent (nice career fg%) and from what i've heard, noci gets after it big time so that should offset jyd's departure.

No doubt both are overpaid. Nash however will do good in Phoenix for about 3 or so years and Cardinals worth ethic IMO was worth the risk of such a contract

ok i hear you on both accounts. just a risky proposition for suns management since they will be stuck with nash's immovable, expensive contract... cardinal had one good year and gets a 7yr contract!.

tsmith= tommy smith. showed some good defensive instincts and athelticsim in SL

I'm pretty sure he's going to play in Europe.

overall i think there's improvement in big men depth based solely on the fact that chandler is healthy. last year it was JYD-linton johnson-dupree coming in off the bench at the power positions

You consider the 3 a power position? That's where LJ3 and Dupree mostly played, JYD played thee as well.

now davis gets to return to the role he was brought in to do- come off the bench at either pf or c. harrington is decent (nice career fg%) and from what i've heard, noci gets after it big time so that should offset jyd's departure.

Will Davis come off the bench? We don't know yet though. Chandler + Curry historically is shied away from coaches due to lack of experience especially on the defensive end and the inability for Chandler to complement Curry on offense. At least Davis can hit the jumper better than TC can.

I do believe Nocioni is our new hustle guy though.

I'm pretty sure he's going to play in Europe.

yep probably now since even austin went to europe

You consider the 3 a power position? That's where LJ3 and Dupree mostly played, JYD played thee as well.

overall no. but for the bulls yes. if you watched the games, you'd see that the first substitution would be JYD coming in at PF, AD sliding over to C. and since at some point AD had to rest and fat ass curry was either in foul trouble or was just fatass out of shape, you'd see JYD slide over to C and the nbdl stars fill in the rest of the frontcourt positions.

Will Davis come off the bench? We don't know yet though. Chandler + Curry historically is shied away from coaches due to lack of experience especially on the defensive end and the inability for Chandler to complement Curry on offense. At least Davis can hit the jumper better than TC can..

i would think TC would be starting and davis off the bench. don't take it as gospel but i would think bulls management and the players themselves think it's time for the 'franchises' to both be starting heading into their contract year. i agree they don't mesh well offensively but i don't think it matters anyway since chandler is just a garbage man. btw chandler has shown he has better then average passing instincts from the high post. lol i heard he had a nice touch from the perimeter back when he was in high school. still waiting to see that in nba.


i hope noci has some talent to go along with that hustle...

You consider the 3 a power position? That's where LJ3 and Dupree mostly played, JYD played thee as well.

overall no. but for the bulls yes. if you watched the games, you'd see that the first substitution would be JYD coming in at PF, AD sliding over to C. and since at some point AD had to rest and fat ass curry was either in foul trouble or was just fatass out of shape, you'd see JYD slide over to C and the nbdl stars fill in the rest of the frontcourt positions.

That's true...although I was thinking and intended starting positions.

i would think TC would be starting and davis off the bench. don't take it as gospel but i would think bulls management and the players themselves think it's time for the 'franchises' to both be starting heading into their contract year. i agree they don't mesh well offensively but i don't think it matters anyway since chandler is just a garbage man. btw chandler has shown he has better then average passing instincts from the high post. lol i heard he had a nice touch from the perimeter back when he was in high school. still waiting to see that in nba.

I do hope TC starts. And finally develops that jump shot he's been working on for forever so he can complement Curry better. The chances of that though...

i hope noci has some talent to go along with that hustle...

Not as much as Macas...he's more intensity and hustle than talent. Shot's not bad, but not like Macas either.