Shaq: "I feel a sign of disrespect, I really do."

[Bang]

1) Yes I did stretch it a lot, but I don't see Oliver Miller being dominant. I mean Shaq has physical gifts, but that's still part of the game. I hate how they keep on saying Shaq has no skills, he's just fat. I mean, Yokozuna can play B-ball then? What about Shawn Kemp? He's fat as hell. A lot of people can be fat, tall and strong. But they aren't Shaq.
2) MJ is the best player ever. How many championships did Wilt win again? What? OH ok. Bill Russell? Oh c'mon, how many teams were there? There is no way Bill Russell or Wilt would have done so well in this day. Yes Wilt's STATISTICS ARE IMPRESSIVE. THEY'RE AMAZING. However, he still only won a few championships. (I forget.) I'd put Bill Russell over Wilt any day. Great players aren't winners. (Read: Webber, KG, TMac, etc.)
3) I never said Shaq was the best center ever. Bill Russell was. But Shaq sure is in the top 5 or something.

[RedTorro]

I've always find it hard to say greatest ever nowadays because if it wasn't for guys like Dr J then MJ wouldn't have modeled his game the way it was. Wilt, Kareem and others laid the groudwork for Shaq so to say one player of one era is better than another is tough to say. It takes innovators to make better players in the future. Shaq right now is raising the bar for tommorows centers like Yao. Mj raised the bar for todays modern shooting guards like Vince, Kobe, and Tmac. Lebron has a lil bit of Magic and Jordan in him. As far as KG who the hell knows, that guy is just a freak. I don't think they'll be too many players in the future that can will be compared to him.

[J@3]

I honestly believe it's impossible to determine who the best player in ANY position ever is. The game changes so much decade to decade that you cant measure the impact of say Oscar Robertson in todays game. I mean who's to say someone like Antawn Jamison wouldnt average 35ppg in the 60's? And if that was the case, then would people be claiming him as the best SF ever? Wilt was dominate in his time, and the stats reflect that strongly, but the fact remains that we'll never know if, had we taken his skills, and put them up against those of Shaq he'd turn out better. In all seriousness who's to say if Wilt went up against someone like Ben Wallace or (younger) Retardo he'd be scrape any points? The only way you can measure a players greatness is to rank them IN THAT ERA. I can't believe these people who say "oh Shaq is better than Wilt", how do you know? Did they ever play each other? It works both ways, if someone said Wilt was better than Shaq I'd have the same questions. You cant base how good a player is/was on stats alone. All of this applies to every player though, I mean I'm not going to now say "Oh except MJ, he's the best ever"... MJ was the most marketable ever, but as to whether he's the BEST ever it's impossible to say. The best of his era yes, the best in history who knows. We will never know, and I honestly dont know why people bother trying to compare players from 30-40 years ago to the players of today.

Anyway, everyone knows Acie Earl is the best player ever.

[HowAreYao?]

Shaq is the most dominant player ever. I recognize that, no problem.

He just has no skill.

Case in point: Shaq dribbles down the court and everybody shits a brick. Wow, imagine that...he can DRIBBLE A BASKETBALL!!! OMFG.

And before you say something about "he's 7'2", he shouldn't be able to do that!" then please consider that Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Hakeem Olajuwon, and even David Robinson actually cross/ed people over on a regular basis, and K.G. runs POINT GUARD for crying out loud!

Shaq is lucky he weighs 340lbs. Look what Olajuwon did to him when he was down around 300...WHIPPED HIM LIKE A RED-HEADED STEP CHILD!

So yeah...dominant, but not very talented at all in my opinion.

EDIT: for the guy a couple of posts above...Oliver Miller and Shawn Kemp aren't 7'0"+ and they are FAT, unlike Shaq who actually has muscle.

[Jackal]

No skill absotutelutley right, his footwork? What the fuck is that? Footwork? Pff..

His defence? He just bumps you aside...what defence? His boxing out? What boxing out? He just puts his big ass in your face, doesnt he Yao Boy?

Dude, seriously...Shaq was named to the NBA's fiftiest greatest players of all time before he actually ever won a ring. He has no skills, seriously do you watch basketball? Or have you ever watched basketball? Sure, he's aging and slowing down, but till today he has great footwork. Comparing him to guys like Duncan and Garnett is wrong, they are in a league of their own. Stuff Robinson could do, Shaq cant...stuff he can, Robinson couldnt. Heh, even your main man Hakeem has acknowledged the fact that Shaq is a good player, oh and by good player...they dont mean he doesnt have any skill.

Rebounds dont just fall into your hands, assists dont come just by throwing the ball here or there, points arent just scored by using body weight, rings arent won just because he's big.

Does anyone have that article where they ask a few guys about guarding Shaq? Someone said they tried the "pull the chair away" from under you method, you know what Malone kept doing to Duncan, since it's all mass and weight backing down, and no skill...thus no control of one's body...he should flop right to the floor, didnt that player say he was wrong? Didn't he say that Shaq is so aware that that method just doesnt work, he has enough wisdom to regain his lost balance. Actually, he doesnt lose his balance, he's usually in control thus the method fails. Would other people call that skill? Maybe, but since he's kicked out the Rockets, you probably wont.

It's all good...the Lakers still have the best Center playing for them, you guys can cry if you want to.

[DipSetVC]

^ Don't forget his passing and his ability to rise to the occasion. He makes his free throws when he has to.

[matmat8]

No skill absotutelutley right, his footwork? What the fuck is that? Footwork? Pff..

His defence? He just bumps you aside...what defence? His boxing out? What boxing out? He just puts his big ass in your face, doesnt he Yao Boy?

Dude, seriously...Shaq was named to the NBA's fiftiest greatest players of all time before he actually ever won a ring. He has no skills, seriously do you watch basketball? Or have you ever watched basketball? Sure, he's aging and slowing down, but till today he has great footwork. Comparing him to guys like Duncan and Garnett is wrong, they are in a league of their own. Stuff Robinson could do, Shaq cant...stuff he can, Robinson couldnt. Heh, even your main man Hakeem has acknowledged the fact that Shaq is a good player, oh and by good player...they dont mean he doesnt have any skill.

Rebounds dont just fall into your hands, assists dont come just by throwing the ball here or there, points arent just scored by using body weight, rings arent won just because he's big.

Does anyone have that article where they ask a few guys about guarding Shaq? Someone said they tried the "pull the chair away" from under you method, you know what Malone kept doing to Duncan, since it's all mass and weight backing down, and no skill...thus no control of one's body...he should flop right to the floor, didnt that player say he was wrong? Didn't he say that Shaq is so aware that that method just doesnt work, he has enough wisdom to regain his lost balance. Actually, he doesnt lose his balance, he's usually in control thus the method fails. Would other people call that skill? Maybe, but since he's kicked out the Rockets, you probably wont.

It's all good...the Lakers still have the best Center playing for them, you guys can cry if you want to.

True
Shaq uses his size and power to dominate the game just as MJ would use his athletic power. His skills and abilities were well said by psycho jackal so won't repeat them.
So no you won't see shaq doing crossovers, hitting 3's and fadeways but that doesn't mean you have no skill.
Im not a huge fan of him (he's too lazy and has a big ego ) but im tired of hearing that...
Shaq is a great player that has skills (how can you say he hasn't )

[Jackal]

Shaquille O'Neal vs the Wallace's. Note, Ben Wallace was a defensive player of the year cantidate.

Minutes: 45

FGM/A: 13-16, damn he sucks, he missed three whole attempts.

FTM/A: 8-12, say what? Someone who shot 29 percent...? Bah, he still missed 4.

Rebounds: 11, how'd he manage that, agh...those probably just fell into his hands.

Assists: 1, how'd he get that? The rest stunk it up yet he managed to get an assist? How's that possible?!?

Blocks: 1, meh...skills?

Points: 34...those just happened to fall through the net.

[Andrew]

I think one of the best ways to play Shaq these days is the same way a lot of teams played Michael Jordan in his prime. Let him get his points, try to slow him as much as possible, but make sure the rest of his team have a miserable night. Sure, Shaq will get his numbers, but without help the Lakers can't do it on his numbers alone. The problem is, his dominance often creates opportunities for his teammates, so this approach is easier said than done.

[MVP]

I have to say Shaq deserves respect for his skill has an NBA player...but I personally think he is damn arrogant. I would appreciate him more as a player if he was more humble of his skill. Players like MJ and Magic were humble in both victory and defeat.

[Jackal]

Now not everyone's perfect MVP.

MJ = picking up women...

Magic = Slept with so many woman has the HIV virus...

Lol, every player has his negative sides, Shaq's happens to his uncanny ability to put his foot in his mouth and be a smart ass.

[hmm]

.

[EGarrett]

This is the LAST warning I'm going to give about your need to flame Jackal. LAST one.

[magius]

bill russel said that if he had played shaq back in the old days under his rules he would've destroyed him, but if he played shaq today under todays rule shaq would destroy him. another interesting thing, way back when in the minny series shaq had played a certain number of playoff games, and an article had compared shaqs statistics with those of kareems at a point in his career when he had played the same amount of playoff games and they were almost identical. eery.

top 5 centres all time:

1. bill russell
2. wilt chamberlain
3. hakeem olajuwan
4. shaqille o'neal
5. kareem

[Jackal]

I switch 2 with 1 and that's my list too.

[magius]

*gasp* we dont agree with each other!!!??? this is historical, people. historical.

why bill russel numero uno? remember the season wilt averaged 50 and 26 (easily his best)...... guess who the mvp that season was? bill russell. Guess who has more championships? Bill Russell. Bill Russel for president!!!

[Jackal]

Yeah, I know he was the season MVP, he was more of a team player, I dont know, I just prefer Chamberlain to Russel, probably a Laker thing.

[Amphatoast]

I guess it's how you few this comparison...by the numbers, Wilt was better than Bill, but when it came down to rings ( you neeed teammates!) Bill had it...

I say Wilt was the best all time...averaging 50 is just nuts, not to mention 100 in a game

[Andrew]

Wilt attempted about 40 shots per game that season though, with a few games with 60+ shot attempts. He had the opportunity to average 50 ppg and score 100. Obviously it's still a great feat, but no one else has ever been given such an opportunity to score 100 or average 50 per contest.

The rebounding numbers are also off the charts, but I cannot see how the nature of the game and his tremendous size advantage are considered to be so irrelevant. People will find all sorts of excuses to downplay the accomplishments of the last couple of generations of players - expansion being one of them - but any suggestion of other factors that resulted in some of the records set in the first couple of decades of the NBA are almost always immediately dismissed.

Wilt was a 7 foot centre when 6'5" was a good height for a forward, teams attempted more shots per game, and double teams were virtually non-existant. These are very important factors, I cannot see how they are irrelevant.

It's like the 13 year old playing basketball at the junior level who has hit puberty and started his growth spurt before everyone else; the kid who has to bring his birth certificate to every game just so that he's allowed to play. He's dominating everyone else, but is it because he's so much better than everyone else, or is it because everyone else barely comes up to his shoulder?

Obviously Wilt's opponents were better than 13 year olds and much bigger, but the concept remains the same. It's the same with Oscar Robertson. Would he average double digits in rebounds were he a 6'5" guard playing in the last 20 years? I think it would have been much more difficult. Sure, height isn't everything when it comes to rebounding - look at Charles Barkley and Dennis Rodman - but it is a great advantage. Most of the players who are always among the league leaders in rebounding are taller than the average NBA player (6'7").

The other reason I don't consider Chamberlain to be the greatest of all-time is his career playoff numbers. His rebounds are higher (24.5 rpg in the playoffs compared to 22.9 rpg in the regular season), but his assists are down (4.2 apg in the playoffs compared to 4.4 apg in the regular season) and his free throw shooting drops below 50% (46.5% in the postseason compared to 51.1% in the regular season).

But most significant is his scoring average. His 30.1 ppg in the post season drops to 22.5 ppg in the playoffs - nearly eight points fewer per game. That is significant, because he is often referred to as being unstoppable. However, the difference in his scoring averages in the regular season and playoffs suggests otherwise. Either he perennially choked in the playoffs, or he was shut down. Either way, when it mattered the most, he couldn't be his usual self on offense. Does this sound like a player who was "unstoppable", the "greatest of all-time"?

The excuse may be made that Chamberlain ran into Russell's Celtics too often, but does it really matter? If he's such an unstoppable force, no one should be able to stop him no matter who they are; that's kind of what the term "unstoppable" implies. Also, what does it say about Russell if it was his teams that prevented Wilt from putting up incredible numbers and winning more than two NBA championships? The 1961 Celtics featured nine Hall of Famers. Considering the help he had, does winning 11 titles make Russell the greatest of all-time?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or completely downplay their accomplishments, don't get me wrong. But like I said, people will find any reason to downplay the accomplishments of players in the last 20 years, while ignoring all other contributing factors in the accomplishments of the first couple of generations of NBA players.

I guess it will continue to be that way, though. People will keep making the same double standards. Wilt can score 100 points and average 50.4 ppg and be a dominant offensive player, while Michael Jordan can score 69 and average 37.1 and be labelled a one dimensional ballhog. Kareem, MJ and Magic can win 5 or more rings and have that dismissed as a personal accomplishment since teams win championships, not players, while some consider Russell the greatest of all-time as he won 11 titles in 13 years.

All I'm saying is that it's pretty easy to hold one player's accomplishments above another when you use double-standards and choose to ignore certain factors that contributed to certain feats. Claiming certain facts are completely irrelevant is an effective way of making your point, but it's not very convincing. You might as well stick your fingers in your ear and yell "LA-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!" at the top of your voice so the other person can't get a word in.

That's just my two cents, and I realise that I am biased as I wasn't around in Wilt's time and I am a Michael Jordan fan, but I think a lot of people underestimate the accomplishments of not only Michael Jordan and the Bulls of the 90s, but other players from the late 70s/early 80s onwards, too.

[magius]

whoa, where did that come from? we were talking about top 5 centres, andrew! please keep on topic

mj would be my number 1 shooting guard though.

[Andrew]

My apologies, I've been saving those sentiments for the next time a "Wilt is the best" topic (or tangent) comes up. At least I have something to quote now.

[magius]

well i dont think a lot of people are understimating the jordan bulls, in fact i think everyone holds them in high esteem...... dont they? Anyway, i think people underestimate the earlier players such as wilt and oscar and bill, etc.. even MORE than mj for the exact same reasons you say people underestimate mj. These guys also had to invent new theories and develop a game and change concepts to pave the way for jordan and bird and magic. looking at the basics i used to think wilt better than mj, but now i dont think him better than russell. i dont think you can really label any player the GREATEST ever, you can just label players who are contesting for that label and be content with the company they are in, because their are so many intangibles you can throw in any argument and come out with no solid conclusion.

In my thinking the easiest way to compare franchise players is the number of championships they have...... notice i only say franchise because franchise players are more oft than not the playoff mvp and most important piece of a championship winning team, so the response of i guess steve kerr is better than kobe has no merit. Its not a completely accuracate forumala (you can say so and so had a better team, i can say so and so made that team better or so and so also had to face deeper teams, etc, etc.), but it is easily the most accurate.

wilt and mj are great in their own rights. who is to say who is definitely better than whom when everyone has so many different opinions. Its just fun to rank them in our own little inconsequential lists

[Andrew]

well i dont think a lot of people are understimating the jordan bulls, in fact i think everyone holds them in high esteem...... dont they?

There are some who claim the Bulls' titles and accomplishments aren't all that great, citing that expansion left the league watered down and the NBA made rule changes that allowed Michael Jordan to be dominant.

Anyway, i think people underestimate the earlier players such as wilt and oscar and bill, etc.. even MORE than mj for the exact same reasons you say people underestimate mj. These guys also had to invent new theories and develop a game and change concepts to pave the way for jordan and bird and magic.

That's true, but some of their greatest accomplishments are the result of opportunities that today's players no longer have. No one else apart from Wilt has scored 100 points in a single, but no one else has been given a chance. No one else has been allowed to take 63 shot attempts in one game.

Of course, the fact remains that Wilt had legitimate skills as well as a height advantage, something that players such as Shawn Bradley and Gheorge Muresan have lacked. His height advantage over other players is not the only reason for his accomplishments. But it is often dismissed as being irrelevant when it was such an obvious factor in his ability to dominate.

All the great players are probably underrated in certain ways, but it just seems to me that players in recent history aren't held in as high esteem as players such as Wilt, Russell and Robertson. Their accomplishments are held up while today's players are often described as playing in a weaker league (weakness usually attributed to league expansion), or some other standard or yardstick that downplays their records and accomplishments.

People often argue why MJ isn't the greatest, or Magic isn't the greatest or Bird isn't the greatest, but arguments against the earlier greats such as Wilt, Russell and Robertson are always dismissed and double-standards are used. Perhaps it's just a matter of time; a few more years need to pass before everyone can truly appreciate the more recent legends of the game.

i dont think you can really label any player the GREATEST ever, you can just label players who are contesting for that label and be content with the company they are in, because their are so many intangibles you can throw in any argument and come out with no solid conclusion.

True, we cannot conclusively select a greatest of all-time, or greatest we've seen so far, or whatever label we want to attach to the honour. And you're right, the best we can do is to name candidates for the honour and consider them players who could all be named as the greatest in history. As much as some people don't believe there were any great players before the 70s, there are plenty of others who don't give enough credit to the players who have come along since then.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents about the whole "Greatest Ever" debate and on Wilt Chamberlain, since his name came up in this thread and Amphatoast referred to him as the greatest. It's just my opinion, I know I can't conclusively prove who is the greatest player in NBA history.

But the whole thing does give me an idea for another topic.

[Andre]

Getting back on top 5 centers...I think Shaq will be remember for many decades and will be consider a legend of this game.

First of all, the NBA is now a global show, much more then even only 10 years ago (not to talk about the time of Wilt, Russell), thus, many more people have been exposed to his dominance.

Shaq is legendary, not only for what he does on the court, but for the person he is, for whet he says to media, for his interests, for how is huge...

I mean..Shaq is Shaq, you gotta love him!

[fish23]

i think the reason why shaq is in a hurry to get his extension is because right now he can still say he's the best center in the league. he better hurry cause once yao learns to be more physical and adds to his repertoire of moves, shaq can't say that no more.

yao is less like shaq and more like olajuwan, only taller.