Shaq...

Shaq can make a contender out of any team, Kobe on the other hand, just does not have the power to do so[/b][/i][/color]

Well, no offence to any other Laker fans- but I think we all know this by now- everyone has got to admit that Kobe is sorta like the 80's Jordan (No matter if he is or he is trying to be) and the same fact that MJ only won with Pippen and all the other guys...Kobe can only win with Shaq...(Although I'm not saying Scottie is as good as Shaq)....I hope Yao can do this with the Franchise

(Although I'm not saying Scottie is as good as Shaq)

imo this would be a worthwhile discussion. if someone wants to discuss like an adult, i'd be more then happy to join in on it

As much as I'm a fan of scottie, shaq is better. imo, he is the greatest centre ever. His career has been incredible.. lets have a look at the stats:
27.2 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 2.6 bpg and 57% fg (these are his career averages).
Scottie's averages:
16.1 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.96 spg
It doesnt seem like much of a comparison, but is it fair to compare the two statiscally? I don't think so, becuase pippen has never been the number one option on his team, with the exception of the 93-94 season and half od the 94-95 season. His numbers for both those seasons:

93-94
22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, 5.6 apg, 2.93 spg and 49 % from the field
94-95
21.4 ppg, 8.1 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.94 spg and 48% fg shooting.

I think those lines are amongst the best in terms of overall completeness. During those seasons, he was a top 3 player in the nba, and the best perimeter player.
But do his numbers stack up to shaq's? No. But scottie was a role a player even when he was the top gun, much like kg today. Shaq is a superstar, and one that does carry a team on his back offensively.
It's a hard comparison to make. Shaq, a centre, Pip, a small forward. Shaq a great team leader, with 3 finals mvp's. Scottie, the ultimate role player who made MJ better.
What sets them apart in my books, is if scottie is replaceable? Could you have put say a Kevin Garnett in scotties position, and would the bulls had won 6? I'd say yes, after thinking about it. With the same question to shaq, could the lakers had won 3 rings without shaq? Put Kareem, Wilt, Hakeem in shaq's position.. and i cant say yes or no. But then ask yourself this: With MJ, would shaq had won six rings? I'd say fuck yes! Even more perhaps, The detroit championship era would've never happened imo. Then if you put scottie on the lakers.. and i doubt they wouldve won one title. Kobe is no where near mike's level.
Not taking anything away from Pip, he is one of my favourite players ever. But, and this is hard to say, but shaq is just that much better. Top 5 all time imo.
Who would you take if you could choose? Pippen or Shaq?

i'm not entirely sure, it's very difficult choosing between players who play different positions and entirely different styles of game.

shaq is one of the dominant forces ever to play the game. a game changer on the offensive end, mvp of championship teams.

pippen is one of the most complete players ever to play the game. one of the best on ball and help side defenders, the ultimate team player.

both have their weaknesses- shaq being the terrible free throw shooter, suspect defense, and the health issues

pippen's mental toughness and ability to hit clutch shots were always questioned


to get to what you said...
i question shaq's leadership abilities, at least the vocal side of it. it seems only in LA that players use the media to get their points through which finally lead to those closed door meetings. and then there's those well documented troubles with the other team's star.

while pippen did have his moments as well- the 1.8 incident or his threats of not returning for the '98 season if he didn't have his contract negotiated, pippen never had problems with teammates (during his stay in chicago) like shaq had/has.

as far as the replaceable thing...
i think it's easy for people to say that scottie's contributions are easily replaceable and shaq's aren't based on the fact the that pippen's a wing player (which there are far and plenty) and shaq's center (far and few in between). but is it really accurate?

the bulls were able to dominate the league on the shoulders of a shooting guard and small forward, something pretty much never done in the history of the nba. if you look in the past at the great nba champions, each of these respective teams had a dominant big man. this makes jordan's and pippen's accomplishments even more remarkable.

sure, both pip and shaq are replaceable, but you'd have to replace them with all time bests

probably a pip/bryant combo wouldn't be as successful a shaq/mj one, especially when you consider that the laker big men complimented a big man, not 2 superstar wing players.

i would also like to add that when pippen was handed over the reins, he lead an overachieving team that was one call away from possibly making the finals. that roster did include all stars bj armstrong and ho grant. but that talent never matched all nba penny hardaway, ho grant, nick anderson, 6th man scott or eddie jones, nve, elden campbell, blindfold ceballos, and a young kobe bryant.

anyway, it's a difficult decision. i could go either way. maybe if i grew up in the west coast i'd choose the big guy. but i didn't so...

Shaq off the courts leadership could be questioned I guess. But on the court he is a leader. Think back to game 1 of the 2001 finals for example. Kobe and Fisher were struggling, Iverson and the sixers were right at the lakers throat and Shaquille almost single handedly carried his team by dominating the then dpoy dikembe mutumbo.

while pippen did have his moments as well- the 1.8 incident or his threats of not returning for the '98 season if he didn't have his contract negotiated, pippen never had problems with teammates (during his stay in chicago) like shaq had/has.

Didn't Pippen dislike Kukoc?I thought there was alot of jealousy there, but that could be just overhyped rumours. Pippen to me wasn't as mature on the court as shaq.. which was clear with the chicago-new york game where he sat out the final shot. Pippen during the title years never had to take the brunt of the defenisve pressure, becuase of mj. However, he did make mj better.
I think you misunderstood my replaceable statment. What I meant was becuase Pippen was a role player (the best in nba history so far) the question needed to be asked, could another superstar (like kevin garnett) take over pippens role in chicago and would they have enjoyed the same success. I think so, but only with a very select few players. Garnett is one of them, becuase his overall game is very complete. Shaq on the other hand is totally irreplaceable. And not becuase he plays centre, its just that no one has been this dominant and won the way he has.

I'd agree that pip/kobe wouldnt be as successfull as mj/shaq. But pip/kobe wouldnt be as succesfull as pip/mj either.

It's very true what you said about Pippen leading an overachieveing team, and Shaq not able to lead somewhat an underachieveing ballclub. But that was before shaq really learnt how to become a leader. Once he did, it was 3 titles. But Pippen couldnt get the job done in portland with even more talent around him! Thats not a knock on Pippen, but it does bring up the main reason why i would choose shaq over him:
Pippen was a great great role player. The best the league has ever seen imo. But Shaq has been able to lead him team for a 3 year period as the best, in a way pretty much only jordan did in terms of dominance and winning. Could Pippen ever lead a team to the championship? It would have been interesting but i dont think he could. Shaq however did that 3 times. Not to take anything from Scottie, he was the best at what he did ever. But Shaq played at another level, a superstar level, thats why ill take him.

But I still am more of a fan of Scottie than Shaqs

yep, early on pip was a bastard to kukoc. same with jordan and phil who were getting pip's back. kukoc was making more money then pip and was krause's boy. phil was so hard on him that kukoc was on the verge of a mental breakdown.

i give shaq a lot of credit for finally 'getting it'. i remember he was receiving heavy criticism earlier in his career for not doing so.

anyway, you bring up some very good points...

i don't anyone fault anyone for choosing the diesel over no tippin' pippen. in fact, i'm probably alone on this one in choosing pip.

u guys are questioning shaq's leadership???
c'mon ... the guy won 3 back 2 back 2 back nba titles!
do u know how hard it is to win repeat championships???? not to mention a 3-peat????
think about it ... only 3 teams in history have been able to do it.
plus, he should have been the league mvp those 3 years .... instead of AI and TD (with the exception of 2002-2003 season).
shaq was and still is invinsible ... he totally dominates the game everytime he steps on the floor. he changes the way the game is played around him. nobody else does that.
people talk about AI as if he gets a beating night in and night out. and i agree with that.
but think about what shaq goes thru every game. People jump on him, they grab him, they foul him hard, they just pulverise and sandwich him .... and yet, he still goes about and does his business without complaining. if other players got fouled like he does, then there would be so many flagrant fouls.
the man has been consistent since he came into the league night in and night out. he's done what so many other greats couldnt do.
so dont question shaq's leadership.

i dont understand one more thing .... how do u compare shaq to pippen???
c'mon!!!! pippen???
has he been as consistent as shaq???
could he change how the game is played like shaq???
does he take a beating night in and night out like shaq????

what is this nonsense???
shaq should be compared with the ranks of jordan, wilt, hakeem and all those guys .... not pippen!!

seems to me like u guys are comparing the best years pippen had with shaq of this year. if u want to talk shaq's best years .... 99 - 2000, where he won almost unanimous mvp votes (where some dumbass gave one vote for iverson). 2000 - 2001 ... where he should've won mvp also and same for 2001 - 2002.

u guys are questioning shaq's leadership???

In his early years in the league??

c'mon ... the guy won 3 back 2 back 2 back nba titles!

No, only 1 back to back to back NBA titles.

plus, he should have been the league mvp those 3 years .... instead of AI and TD (with the exception of 2002-2003 season).

AI was the leader of the Sixers. He was doing everything he could do to the team to win. That team featured the COTY, DPOY and RPOY. I think he deserved that trophy.
And there's TD...how many players could win with that team ??

shaq was and still is invinsible ... he totally dominates the game everytime he steps on the floor. he changes the way the game is played around him. nobody else does that.

Agree with the first part. When he's motivated, nobody can stop him.

people talk about AI as if he gets a beating night in and night out. and i agree with that.
but think about what shaq goes thru every game. People jump on him, they grab him, they foul him hard, they just pulverise and sandwich him .... and yet, he still goes about and does his business without complaining. if other players got fouled like he does, then there would be so many flagrant fouls.

Agree also, but, he's 7'1 and 350 lbs., with amazing skills. That's why the other players jump on him, grab his jersey, etc. AI is barely 6'0 165 lbs., and he penetrates with no fear against anybody.

lol u got me with that back to back finals part

but other than that ... i'm not questioning how AI is getting pounded every night. I'm just saying that just because shaq is 7'1", 350 lbs .... the refs just treat him different from other players. For instance, if someone smacked shaq's head on accident ... then it would just be a personal foul. But if shaq did that to anybody else, then they would call a fragrant.
anyways, my point is that shaq can easily get frustrated becuz of the unfair abuse he gets. but he just goes about his business and doesnt complain about it.

and about the mvp business ... i agree that iverson did a lot in 2000-2001 season ... and yes he was well deserving of the mvp trophy. but my point is that shaq is the type of player that should get the mvp every year (maybe not this year or last year). i mean he just dominates the game like nobody else can. the game changes around him. he's been one of the top 2 players in the league evey year.

anyways, i dont really care whether he wins the mvp or not ... but i was just pissed off about the part when someone said shaq doesnt have leadership. he's put mvp type numbers every year and he's won 3 titles (back to back). it sure takes a leader like shaq to accomplish that feat.

i heard someone interviewing shaq's highschool coach and he said back then shaq was lean and could shoot threes... do ya believe that?

but i was just pissed off about the part when someone said shaq doesnt have leadership. he's put mvp type numbers

i question shaq's leadership abilities, at least the vocal side of it. it seems only in LA that players use the media to get their points through which finally lead to those closed door meetings. and then there's those well documented troubles with the other team's star.

and yet, he still goes about and does his business without complaining.

are you sure about that?

could he change how the game is played like shaq???

yes on defense

does he take a beating night in and night out like shaq????

no, but he has had his fair share of incidents where he sacrificed his body for the better of the team


btw, you sound like someone's twisting your tit

if i were building a team from scratch and wanted someone to build around id choose shaq. if i already had a go to player i'd pick pippen. in my opinion mj and pippen is preferable to mj and shaq because you forget that a major reason chicago won was because of pips defense on the likes of magic and stockton. i dont think mj couldve done the same job, and even if he couldve, it wouldve expended a lot of the energy hed use on the offensive end.

so basically, i pick shaq if i want a go to player, pip if i already have one. that doesnt mean shaq is better, each is better in their own right, some would even say players of pippen's caliber and talents are even rarer.

if i were picking top 3 all time shooting guards/small forwards i'd pick mj, pippen, bird.

interesting sidenote: Shaq's 31 points, 26 rebounds and seven blocked shots made him just the fourth player in the past three decades to rumble for at least 30-25-5 in the same game

btw, you sound like someone's twisting your tit

c'mon man, u dont have to insult me ... i never said anything to u.

and yet, he still goes about and does his business without complaining.

are you sure about that?

yeah i'm sure about that ... i watch the lakers night in and night out. and he takes a damn beating every day ... but never says a word about it.
however, there are times where he does get agitated when he's not in a good mood. like the incident with brad miller in chicago.

but if rasheed wallace was grabbed and they dont call a foul ... then think about what he would do???? he'd get T'd up.

Quote:
could he change how the game is played like shaq???

yes on defense

yeah that's true ... but shaq does it on offense and defense. when shaq is on the floor ... nobody dares to take the ball inside at him. that's why teams usually shoot such a low percentage against the lakers.

btw i'm not sayin pippen sucks. i'm just saying that shaq is a lot better and a lot more dominating than pippen ever was.

I agree with you there totally mate. Shaq is and always will be more dominate than Pip, and I'm like one of Pip's biggest fans, or should I say, he's on of my biggest fans!!
Anyway, Pippen is known more for his defence than offense, becasue of his long arms. He gets more steals, blocks than most 6'8 SF's, but still he's averaging 18ppg, 8rpg 5apg and so on (well not lately, few years ago now.) He's an all round swingman, but is not as dominate as Shaq!!
Shaq just bangs it in there, and he gets results. He has 3 rings to show for it. Pip did have a helping hand in the championships, but whatabout all the other guys who hardly get any recognition. Jordan was the star, I don't doubt that.
As far as Shaq goes, his defence will improve, and he's probably in the zone of his prime, has been and will continue to be in the zone. If anyone steps in the key with Shaq around, look out, he goona take you down town on a bus ride. That's my 4cents, 2 more than I expected to pay,

Macca

I agree with you there totally mate. Shaq is and always will be more dominate than Pip, and I'm like one of Pip's biggest fans, or should I say, he's on of my biggest fans!!
Anyway, Pippen is known more for his defence than offense, becasue of his long arms. He gets more steals, blocks than most 6'8 SF's, but still he's averaging 18ppg, 8rpg 5apg and so on (well not lately, few years ago now.) He's an all round swingman, but is not as dominate as Shaq!!
Shaq just bangs it in there, and he gets results. He has 3 rings to show for it. Pip did have a helping hand in the championships, but whatabout all the other guys who hardly get any recognition. Jordan was the star, I don't doubt that.
As far as Shaq goes, his defence will improve, and he's probably in the zone of his prime, has been and will continue to be in the zone. If anyone steps in the key with Shaq around, look out, he goona take you down town on a bus ride. That's my 4cents, 2 more than I expected to pay,

Macca

very well said

Thanks, but it's pretty much fact, I think. Nobody was very dominate like Wilt was, no one could match that in the whole league until Shaq came along. They had to change the rules for Wilt, maybe to make it easier on other centres, they should change some rules becuase of Shaq. It's just my thoughts, and on that note, I need a toilet break.

EDIT: Wasn't supposed to write that last bit...

Macca

Ok, not to throw you guys off of your discussion or anything but here's something I found on the net:

"After signing his new contract, Shaq asked me if I wanted to go with him to shop for Rolexes (for players and coaches)," Madsen said. "But he told me we had some stops to make, and we stopped by a car dealership. I had been trying to lease a Chevy Tahoe at home (in the Bay Area), but no one would lease to me because I had no credit. But when you're with Shaq, there are no questions about your credit."

I couldve made a new topic, but it also falls under Shaq, so I just posted it in here. I didnt know Shaq was that generous.

Madsen & Shaq

oh yeah that's right .... i remember shaq bought madsen a SUVwhen he was a rook.

i don't mean to insult, sorry, it just seems from your response that you were upset, almost insulted from what i said. i think ive brought up some legit facts, both good and bad about both players. it's not meant to piss off anyone...

yeah i'm sure about that ... i watch the lakers night in and night out. and he takes a damn beating every day ... but never says a word about it.

NEVER?
you don't stop a 7ft, 400 pound man from shooting a basketball by tapping him on the shoulder... so what if he's takes a beating all day? it comes with the territory if he's going to bowl over people or take most of his shots in the paint. he's amongst the league leaders in fta's and in all likelihood will retire with the all time fta's record. it's good defense for his opponents to foul him anyway- he's a poor throw shooter. and most defenses would rather foul their opponent then give up an easy basket. he is the most difficult person to officiate...

but shaq does it on offense and defense. when shaq is on the floor ... nobody dares to take the ball inside at him. that's why teams usually shoot such a low percentage against the lakers.

don't tell me nobody takes the ball inside after at him- i've seen players like ginobili drive to the paint time after time. and i've seen teams constantly employ the pick and roll on shaq since he is very poor at it. shaq may at times be dominant on defense, but it's nowhere near pippen's or the consistency at which pippen did it

no offense taken man ... don't worry about it

don't tell me nobody takes the ball inside after at him- i've seen players like ginobili drive to the paint time after time. and i've seen teams constantly employ the pick and roll on shaq since he is very poor at it. shaq may at times be dominant on defense, but it's nowhere near pippen's or the consistency at which pippen did it

yes players do take the ball at him from time to time, but very rarely. however, that was not my point. i was trying to say that the presense of shaq in the paint changes the offenses of the opponents. just look at the stats. when he's in the game, opponent's inside field goal percentage is low. when he's on the bench, then the opponent's inside field goal percentage goes up. therefore, when shaq is in the game, he forces opponents to take outside shots.

and btw, shaq rarely goes out to play against the pick and roll. he's usually guarding the paint. however, if the other team has a center that can shoot from the outside (there are not many of them), then that's a different story.

Man- I never knew Shaq was good mates with Madsen...I know him and Brian Shaw were good friends though