SLAM Top 50 Players

[jonthefon]

Maybe so, but he still hasn't proven anything. Excuses are like assholes...

Proven anything? How's 25/11 over 100 playoff games?! And he did carry a team to the NBA Finals, in an admittedly weak league, and only lost because certain things happened which shall not be mentioned ever again.

To say Dirk hasn't shown anything in the playoffs is the most inane basketball statement one could make.

[benji]

That sounds like a challenge.

[jonthefon]

Golly gosh.

[Laxation]

Maybe so, but he still hasn't proven anything. Excuses are like assholes...

Proven anything? How's 25/11 over 100 playoff games?! And he did carry a team to the NBA Finals, in an admittedly weak league, and only lost because certain things happened which shall not be mentioned ever again.

To say Dirk hasn't shown anything in the playoffs is the most inane basketball statement one could make.

Stats like 25/11 are very good and he should be proud of them.

But, theyre also useless - and I'm sure he would trade 20 ppg and 8rpg for a ring. I'm not going to be impressed by his stats until he can win a ring, and he has shown that he can't. Even if he was unlucky, or in a bad team, he still hasn't won one despite having chances. He hasn't proven anything.

[Lamrock]

Hell yes. Adam Morrison > 2004 Pistons.

[jonthefon]

Maybe so, but he still hasn't proven anything. Excuses are like assholes...

Proven anything? How's 25/11 over 100 playoff games?! And he did carry a team to the NBA Finals, in an admittedly weak league, and only lost because certain things happened which shall not be mentioned ever again.

To say Dirk hasn't shown anything in the playoffs is the most inane basketball statement one could make.

Stats like 25/11 are very good and he should be proud of them.

But, they're also useless - and I'm sure he would trade 20 ppg and 8rpg for a ring. I'm not going to be impressed by his stats until he can win a ring, and he has shown that he can't. Even if he was unlucky, or in a bad team, he still hasn't won one despite having chances. He hasn't proven anything.

So in your eyes, someone like Slava Medvedenko is more impressive to you than Dirk because he's "had chances" to win rings and he has? Oh lookie, he's been to the playoffs five times! And won twice!

[dare]

So Jason Kidd and Steve Nash hasn't prove anything too?

[Laxation]

So in your eyes, someone like Slava Medvedenko is more impressive to you than Dirk because he's "had chances" to win rings and he has? Oh lookie, he's been to the playoffs five times! And won twice!

Who were we comparing again? Dirk and the rest of the NBA or Tim and Dirk?

[benji]

Titles don't really matter even then. Dirk is a bit better offensively, but defensively it's not a question, Duncan is the best defensive player of his era.

[jonthefon]

So in your eyes, someone like Slava Medvedenko is more impressive to you than Dirk because he's "had chances" to win rings and he has? Oh lookie, he's been to the playoffs five times! And won twice!

Who were we comparing again? Dirk and the rest of the NBA or Tim and Dirk?

I'm saying it's stupid to base any player's performance in the playoffs or "go-to guy prowess" on the account of "they didn't win a ring despite many chances to do so".

[NovU]

But the playoffs is the real stage where great legends has made their names at. No matter how great Dirk has been, he somewhat deserves the tag especially having being one of the top players in the league for several years.

[NovU]

But the playoffs is the real stage where great legends has made their names at. No matter how great Dirk has been, he somewhat deserves the tag especially having being one of the top players in the league for several years.

[Lamrock]

Yeah, so because the 2006 finals were completely rigged, Dirk sucks, and has far more to prove than an Adam Morrison.

[deihatein]

Comes down to who is on the team. If it's your go to guy, then both ways I don't see the team winning. Neither of them are good enough, but in that situation I'd be more inclined to take Dirk. As a 2nd or 3rd banana, I'd still take Duncan.

And now it's time for me to needlessly defend Dirk!

Has he ever had a real 'Robin' since he became the guy after 03-04? I haven't seen it. An aging Mike Finley/Jerry Stackhouse combo? Josh Howard? Caron Butler? He's never had the chance.

If Rick Carlisle were smart enough, he would stop loving/playing that Puerto Rican dude, make Jason Terry role a little less, play Roddy B more and start using that 3 guard lineup.

Fixed.

[benji]

And Dirk has delivered, playing as well as or better than he had during the regular season.

We really need to get away from this stupid notion that everything falls on a teams best player. The Lakers threw out four hall of famers, all of which were all-star caliber AT LEAST the year before, and one of whom was arguably the best player in the league, and they couldn't bring down a perfectly constructed team with depth. Instead they got basically vaporized off the planet.

Michael Jordan didn't "step up" in the playoffs when you examine his career, he instead delivered exactly as he did in the regular season, which was far above anyone else. Dirk has basically done the same (and in some respects done better and indeed stepped it up) and thus holding HIS TEAMS failures against HIM is irrational. Don't make me YET AGAIN bring up Jordan's various complete implosions in the deciding games of series.

Indeed, in the actual biggest game of Dirk's life, he delivered a 37/15 to take down the Spurs. (A game after going for 26/21. He also went for 29/15 in game six of the Finals.)

See more here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=56307&start=0

[Laxation]

I'm saying it's stupid to base any player's performance in the playoffs or "go-to guy prowess" on the account of "they didn't win a ring despite many chances to do so".

Stupid to base a players performance based on winning titles?

You can go and base a player's performance based on ESPN dunking reels and how many points you score in a season til the cows come home. But when when deciding who to pick for a team, a HUGE factor is their ability to win in big games. So I would pick Duncan over Dirk.

Either you didn't phrase this last argument properly, or you're a fucking moron. Player's performance in playoffs is directly proven by winning a ring. The better you play, more chance of winning a ring.

[benji]

Will Perdue > Charles Barkley + Karl Malone combined?

[jonthefon]

I'm saying it's stupid to base any player's performance in the playoffs or "go-to guy prowess" on the account of "they didn't win a ring despite many chances to do so".

Stupid to base a players performance based on winning titles?

You can go and base a player's performance based on ESPN dunking reels and how many points you score in a season til the cows come home. But when when deciding who to pick for a team, a HUGE factor is their ability to win in big games. So I would pick Duncan over Dirk.

Either you didn't phrase this last argument properly, or you're a fucking moron. Player's performance in playoffs is directly proven by winning a ring. The better you play, more chance of winning a ring.

Oh boy. Let's not turn this into a slanging match.

You CANNOT judge a player's entire body of work in the playoffs on whether they win a ring. That's beyond ridiculous. And it's not like Dirk's reduced his chances of winning a ring through his play: I just told you, 25/11 over 100 games is a pretty useable sample size. Does Reggie Miller's failure to win a ring kill his status as a playoff performer? It really shouldn't.

I mean Dirk has obviously had his bad playoff series - well, I can count that 05 Phoenix series, Golden State series, and maybe the second half of the Finals. Elsewhere, he's been pretty darn good. But even Kobe took a shit in the 2004 Finals (he tied the game in Game 2? Even Dirk rescued Game 2 against the Warriors, and he produced three scores late in Game 5 of the Finals before Wade was 'fouled'.) and obviously he didn't exactly do things in Game 7 last season, and people continue lauding him.

Dirk measures up pretty nicely on advanced stats for the playoffs, but I'm not using them - I'm not certain about how they apply with what tend to be very small sample sizes. But I just don't see how he could be considered as a impotent, ultimately a 'failure' in the playoffs, just because he hasn't won one.

Now, if you told me to pick between the past ten years of Duncan and the past ten of Dirk, I'd pick Duncan in an instant. He's the best player of this generation - though I'd take Dirk for this season.

[NovU]

Yeah, so because the 2006 finals were completely rigged, Dirk sucks, and has far more to prove than an Adam Morrison.

How many FTs did Dirk shoot in the Finals anyways? People saying was rigged but the rest of Heat team took pretty much no FTs. Dirk fans should stop crying like bitches, I tell ya.

Back on the topic, playoffs is about adjusting and Dirk hasn't been able to deliver it yet on that account no matter what. I agree that everything shouldn't be judged from the playoffs, but it's understandable why there is much criticism just like Karl Malone's case. Besides, having Dirk compared to Duncan is laughable. Duncan is the best ever at PF and was much much easier to build the team around in prime. That is why he has many rings while Dirk has none. I am not even a Dirk hater, and recognize that his performance hasn't really been that bad in the playoffs, but still him as the centerpiece, each year was disappointing in exception of 2006. It's not like Dirk as an individual has been a failure in the playoffs, but him as the leader/centerpiece, it was a bit disaster for the Mavericks. It'd be stupid to say he doesn't hold any responsibility in that.

[koberulz]

Wait, what? He played well, but the rest of the team sucked, so it's clearly his fault? Wow.

[deihatein]

See more here: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=56307&start=0

Reading that thread somehow makes me shed a tear. Also benji

[NovU]

Wait, what? He played well, but the rest of the team sucked, so it's clearly his fault? Wow.

Everything you say is false because you always miss a point.

Perhaps, you should consider stop quoting out of context.

[benji]

Dirk measures up pretty nicely on advanced stats for the playoffs, but I'm not using them - I'm not certain about how they apply with what tend to be very small sample sizes.

It's not a small sample size, you yourself noted it's more than a full season, and my link backed that up.

How many FTs did Dirk shoot in the Finals anyways? People saying was rigged but the rest of Heat team took pretty much no FTs.

But Wade took at least as many as the entire Mavericks team. I'm sure you see nothing wrong with the Lakers taking more FTs in the fourth quarter of Game Six than they had in any other game in the series or the playoffs or the season.

Back on the topic, playoffs is about adjusting and Dirk hasn't been able to deliver it yet on that account no matter what.

So Dirk playing better than he had during the regular season isn't enough? Is he the only one we should hold to this standard or should I start looking for others?

I agree that everything shouldn't be judged from the playoffs, but it's understandable why there is much criticism just like Karl Malone's case.

Oh, so it's laughable.

Besides, having Dirk compared to Duncan is laughable. Duncan is the best ever at PF and was much much easier to build the team around in prime. That is why he has many rings while Dirk has none.

And why?

It's not like Dirk as an individual has been a failure in the playoffs, but him as the leader/centerpiece, it was a bit disaster for the Mavericks.

Disaster? Really?

It'd be stupid to say he doesn't hold any responsibility in that.

Actually it'd be stupid to claim he holds all the responsibility for it. He delivered. He put up better than expected, he showed up in major games and stuck daggers into teams hearts. But nobody else bothered to show up. Avery Johnson coached himself into tangles ruining 2007 and didn't help the 2006 implosion as Dirk kept it up.

People have this myth in their heads that the great players are never weak. They ignore Jordan failing time and time again, but his team persevering. Jordan was brilliant, the best perimeter player of all time, the best player of his era, but even he bombed at times. It happens because players are human. He self-destructed down the stretch against the Sonics defense in 1996, if Jordan did anyone would have, that defense was incredible, suffocating, constructed brilliantly. Jordan fell apart, but the Bulls, they survived. Something they had done against teams that also threw it all against Jordan like the Heat.

Basketball is a team sport.

I mean we aren't going to bash Wade for not winning titles from 2007-2010 are we?

[jonthefon]

Back on the topic, playoffs is about adjusting and Dirk hasn't been able to deliver it yet on that account no matter what.

Oh my oh my oh my oh my oh my.

What the fuck does that fucking mean?!

So now the playoffs are all about 'adjusting'? I thought it was all about "stepping up"? Or "making it count"? Jesus Christ, my entire basketball ideology has been shattered.

[deihatein]

Back on the topic, playoffs is about adjusting and Dirk hasn't been able to deliver it yet on that account no matter what.

Hmm..

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