WHICH ALUMNI RULE?

[DR. P]

Just a quick question, often just before the college season begins, I create an alumni season in Live where I put players on team that represents their college affiliations. My question to you is which team do you think would have the best college team if you were to put all of them together?

E.g, Duke Alumni: G. Hill, Leattner, Brand, Avery, Maggette, Jay Williams, etc.

Kentucky Alumni: McCarty, Derek Anderson, Mercer, Padgett, etc.

Kansas: Gooden, Pollard, Jacque Vaughn, etc.

Or is there some other team that would be more dominant?

Best,

P

[Matthew]

I'd say North Carolina with Mike, Stackhouse, R. Wallace, Vince Carter, Antwain Jamison, Rick Fox and Brendon Haywood

[Nick]

Don't forget Twiggy Payne there, matt.

p.s. Let me explain who Twiggy is...
he's 6'8" and he plays the Point Guard SF...he weighs about 215 lbs or so...his strangths are...Three point shooting...dunking...amazingly athletic in the air...great leap...he's a ankle breaker...great ball handling skills...sort of a mix between Kobe and Rose... But BETTER!

[Matthew]

And of course he is from North Carolina! How could I forget him?!

BTW How about All time alumni... not just the current NBA players.

North Carolina: MJ, Worthy, Sheed, Vince, Antwain Jamison, Brad Dougherty

Feel free to post who you think would have a better one. Georgetowns would be good as well.

[Clinton]

Gotta be the Tar Heels. Just producing Jordan is enough.

[Nick]

Yeah, Jordan & Payne made the best lineup...little bit like the Pierce & Walker thing...Imagine if Payne was in the NBA...

[.]

What about Michigan?: Chris Webber, Juwon Howard, Jalen Rose, Maurice Taylor, Glen Rice

[DR. P]

Sorry,

I forgot to mention N.C. and Michigan. But if we're talking all-time alums, which I am, then what about UCLA?

Walton, Kareem, Gadzuric, Edney, Baron Davis, Toby Bailey, etc.?

I think N.C. gives them fits with their size and skill, but I like UCLA in a close one, with Wooden as the mythical coach. Remember, N.C. has plenty of scorers (M.J., Stack, Worthy) and a full roster [e.g., they'd probably have to redshirt guys like Foxx, Chilcutt, Haywood, and George Lynch], but they also have plenty of head cases (i.e., Wallace), so I question their chemistry. And for all those great players, they've only won a few NCAA championships when compared to some of those other teams I mentioned with considerably less talent man-for-man over the years. I also like the duke alumni team, if it comes down to coaching, since N.C. would have to try to figure out who's going to be their primary scorer. Is Jordan, Carter, Worthy, Wallace, or Stackhouse going to be the man? So I see even more problems in terms of chemistry when I factor that in.

Best,

P

[JuanDV]

Temple: pepe Sanches, Eddie jones, Mckie....

[mcbiggins]

If we go all-time, Kansas has to get recognized. Danny Manning with working knees and Wilt. Wow! They don't really need anything else.

And what about Cincy. You get al of the Bob Huggins era players with Oscar Robertson working the point.

Or Georgetown with Ewing, Morning, Mutumbo, JYD, and Iverson.

But I think UNC would still come out on top. I think a 80's/90's UNC team could beat anybody. That's ignoring the great players they had in the 70's and 60's. And Frank Maguirre wass the coach there in the late 50's/early 60's and had some great teams filled with the best playround stars of NYC at the time (who tended to be Jewish or Eastern European, which shows how basketball is foremost an urban game, not neccisarily a black one). But think fro the Jordan era on to today: Worthy, Perkins, Jordan, Reid, Dougherty, Wallce, Stackhouse, Montross, Carter, Jamison, McInnis, and I'm sure I've forgotten one or two very good players. I'm a Dookie at heart, but these guys would steamroll anybody.

[DR. P]

McBig,

I agree UNC all-time is indeed formidable, but you can only play 5 guys at a time. In a way, their depth (though freakish), could be to their own detriment and cause problems. I agree, they'd be tough to handle especially at the perimeter positions (SG-SF). But they clearly don't have size like G-town who could have the following starting 5:

Mutumbo
Ewing/Jahidi White
Morning/Othella Harrington
Reggie Williams/Victor Page/
Iverson

and factor that in with the Coaching of John Thompson and maybe even Georgetown causes them fits. I agree Kansas has size with the likes of

Wilt/Chenowith/Ostertag
Pollard
Gooden
Pierce
Vaughn

But, they lack speed and perimeter play which is why I think a team like NC would have an easier time with them. Stopping wilt would be impossible, but they could lock up some of the other players.

I too like Duke, but acknowledge that NC would eat them up. The same would go for Michigan, who boasts

Webber/Tarpley/
Howard/Glen Rice/Robert Traylor
King/Maurice Taylor
Jackson
Rose

and some Cagey vets, but I too like NC. But I still maintain that a UNC vs. UCLA all-time match-up would go in UCLA's favor.

Size wise UCLA would boast:

Walton/Kareem/Gadzuric/McCoy/

And perimeter wize they boast
Reggie Miller/Baron Davis/Tyus Edney/Toby Bailey/Kapono

and a host of others I haven't even mentioned I like their size, shooting, versatility, and of course coaching which I why I believe they'd prevail.

I'd also give consideration to Arizona as well, who I've yet to acknowledge. But again I don't think they'd be on either UCLA or UNC's level.

I'll have to simulate a season and get back to you on this one. But I welcome some other views as well.

Best,

P

[Brave Sir Rubin]

George Town, defenatly George Town....the school that produced the best D players out there...plus...IVERSON...

[:digerati:]

LSU...

Shaq...Stanley Roberts...Stromile Swift...Pete Maravich...Chris Jackson...Randy Livingston...Jabari Smith...

they may not look like much...but I bet they'd give your "all-time" UNC team, a run for it's money...

[DR. P]

The reason I like the UCLA team is because they too have great depth and size, and in many ways comparable to UNC. Pavel you noted that G-town indeep has size that can go with anyone. I give you know qualms there. And yes, electro, LSU is good up to about the 6th man, unless of course you allow neighboring schools like Louisana tech (Karl Malone, P. J. Brown) to help out. But seriously, and objectively take a look at the full UCLA roster as I see it:


Starting 5:

Kareem
Walton
Kiki Vandewhe
Reggie Miller
Baron Davis
____________

6th Man: Henry Bibby
____________
The next wave of 9:

Marques Johnson
Jamal wilkes
Mark Eaton
Goodrich
D. Maclean
Tracy Murray
W. Naullis
E. Obannon
C. Obannon
_________________
The rest of the best:

Jarrod Rush
Gadzuric
Jason Kapono
Mitchell Butler
Sidney Wicks
Pooh Richardson
Tyus Edney
Toby Bailey
McCoy
J.R. Henderson
G. Zidek
Darrick Martin [ben this is for you]
Jack Haley [ben this one's for you also]
Jerome Moiso

Head Coach: John Wooden

Now you tell me whether that team could give UNC a run for its money.

Side note:

I also like UConn's chances against UNC with:

Cliff Robinson
Donyell Marshall
Scott burrell
Rip Hamilton
Ray Allen
____________
Travis Knight
Donny Marshall
Kevin Freeman
Chris Smith
Kevin Ollie
Riki Moore
Khalid El-Amin

and Alabama's with this Awesome team [you talk about athleticism]:

Antonio Mcdyess
Robert Horry
Derrick Mckey
David Benoit
L. Spreewell
_____________
Roy Rogers
Jason Caffey
J. Robinson
Ennis Whatley
Eric Washington
Keith Askins

And finally don't forget UNLV [talk about defense]:

Arman Gilliam
Larry Johnson
Stacey Augmon
Reggie Theus
Shawn Marion
_________
Isiah Rider
Keon Clark
Greg Anthony
Everic Gray
Elmore Spencer
Anderson Hunt
Tyrone Nesby

Let me know your views,

Best,

P

[mcbiggins]

I forgot all about LSU. When you get abut 70 ppg out of Shaq and Pistol Pete, does it really matter who else you run?

Yes it does, but they'd sure be fun to watch.

[Matthew]

First of all I'd like to say this is a great thread, good work P

Secondly, I think Mike would be able to keep Rasheed in check. You saw in the second Bulls three peat how Jordan controlled Rodman, so I have no doubts he could contain Wallace.

Also, don't forget the coaching of Dean Smith and Bill Guthridge, they were second to none.

This would be fun to watch, but we can't. But hey, it's fun to imagine too 8)

BTW I voted for UNC

[DR. P]

Thanks for the props, NBA fan. As for your take, I agree that MJ probably could "somewhat" handle sheed, but if I recall correctly even Dean Smith himself had tough times controlling Wallace. And Guthridge had a tough time controlling even lesser players [Haywood]. But I think Mike certainly would be an asset for the UNC team.

SOME POTENTIAL CHALLENGES FOR UNC

By the way, I voted for UCLA [although I'm admittedly a Duke fan] since I just think the Bruins had too many skilled big men for UNC to handle. If they got UNC in a half court game I think they could get their bigs in trouble and perhaps pull out a close one in regulation. Also remember that UCLA has excellent free throw guys (e.g., Miller, Tracy Murray) so they can make you pay at the charity stripe. Plus factor in arguably the best coach of all-time in Wooden and I think that team has what it takes to get by an extremely tough UNC team. Again, I also think G-Town, UCONN, Kansas, and perhaps Duke Alums [if its in Cameron, although that's like a home away from home game for UNC] have a shot. I think the UNC team kills Michigan and other ACC teams like UVA, NC state, and Even Maryland, but I believe they'd have tougher than expected times against the likes of Alabama and UNLV.

Keep the ideas coming,

Best,

P

[Matthew]

UCLA defintaley have some really good big guys, but UNC rips them with swingmen. Mike, Vince, Worthy and Stack would penetrate with ease and challange those big men, thus picking up fouls. Also imagine UNC picking up UCLA full court, pressuring the ball, that would create havoc for UCLA.

[DR. P]

RESPONDING TO PRESSURE

Also imagine UNC picking up UCLA full court, pressuring the ball, that would create havoc for UCLA.

I agree NBA fan, pressure could cause UCLA to falter, but I'd counter with asking who better to dribble end to end in crunch time situaitons than Baron Davis, Henry Bibby, and Tyus Edney and who better in the Clutch than Reggie Miller, KiKi Vandewhe, Goodrich, or Ed O'bannon when you need a big bucket. They've also got shot blocking and back-up size in Eaton, although he's not the most agile person on the planet, but he's "5" tough fouls [college rules] and he gets you a host of block and changed shots on Carolina's offense. Fator in the toughness of Wilkes and Johnson, and I think if the half-court game prevails UCLA wins it. By the way, I don't remember Carolina doing much trapping over the years, they tend to pressure/harass the ball handler when he crosses half-court but that may not be that much of an impediment for UCLA to overcome.

THE GLARING WEAKNESS FOR UNC

Defensively, I'd say Carolina has some big Holes that I see which I believe UCLA could readily exploit. Though talented offensively, the Guys we named [save probably Wallace, Lynch, Dougherty, and maybe the new version of Rick Foxx] are probably their best defenders man to man. Jordan does have good D, of course that's when pippen normally guards the opposing teams best player, but Worthy, Stackhouse, Phil Ford, Perkins, Jamison, and Carter are all defensive liabilities. Factor in that UCLA has its share of Bigs and I believe they could hurt UNC on the defensive end.

ANOTHER STRATEGY TO CARVE UP UNC

Also, UCLA could spare itself defensively if it fell back on a 2-3 zone and forced UNC to beat them from the outside. If UNC tried to use such a strategy against UCLA, they be playing right into their hands with Shooters like Vandewe, Miller, Murray, Davis, and Kapono. UCLA could play Inside-out and rip UNC apart. But again, I'd love to see it.

Best,

P

P.S., NBA_fan what's up with the Avatars? Are they not working for everyone? I can't seem to get the thing to work for me. Any advice?

[Matthew]

True true, UCLA do have some good ball handlers in Baron Davis and Tyrus Edney. However I can see (a younger Mike) picking up full court along with Vince (he is a pure athlete who could press really well too imo).
I don't think UNC would struggle ina half court offense against UCLA. A simple pick and roll with Jordan/ Dougherty would draw Eaton away from the hoop. And don't forget UCLA would more than likely have to man to man against a UNC lineup of Jordan, Vince, Jamison, Sheed and Dougherty becuase all of thos players can shoot pretty good.

I disagree about their defense. You say "Jordan does have good D, of course that's when pippen normally guards the opposing teams best player" But remember Jordan was defensive player of the year in Pippens rookie season, which we all know Pip didn't get many minutes. If North Carolina was to have a major problem, I think it would be ball handling and possibly consistant outside shooting.

Oh, and as for this comment; "who better in the Clutch than Reggie Miller, KiKi Vandewhe, Goodrich, or Ed O'bannon when you need a big bucket." I can think of one guy in particular who is better to get the ball to for a big basket


P.S. As for Avatars, is it possible your picture is too big? Maybe check out the dimmensions and see if it is. I hope it works for you

Displays a small graphic image below your details in posts. Only one image can be displayed at a time, its width can be no greater than 80 pixels, a height no greater than 80 pixels and a file size no more than 6kB

[DR. P]

"I don't think UNC would struggle ina half court offense against UCLA. A simple pick and roll with Jordan/ Dougherty would draw Eaton away from the hoop....If North Carolina was to have a major problem, I think it would be ball handling and possibly consistant outside shooting."

REMEMBER ITS NOT ABOUT EATON

Remember though, the question wouldn't be could they draw Eaton away from the middle, it would be could they instead draw Abdul-Jabbar [Alcindor] and Walton away from the middle. I'd argue against that given the disciple of these two Hall of Famers. Eaton, maybe, no....probably. But, getting Kareem and Walton out of their game would indeed be a challenge.

NO BALL HANDLER, IN-ABILTIY TO DOUBLE, AND NO POSITION VARIABILITY = DISASTER

As to the second statement, that's precisely why I like UCLA in this match-up. Because I feel UNC has no definitive ball handler, virtually a team full of SG/SF's, and that if their slashing ability was taken away I think their well would dry up rather quickly. Plus, it'll be harder for guys like Perkins and Dougherty to get help from the guards and forwards in double-teams since Jordan, Carter, Worthy, Jamison, etc. will have to respect the outside shot of guys like Vandewe, Miller, Davis, Bibby, and Murray. Moreover, if the ball gets inside to Kareem [or Lew] or Walton, I find it hard to believe that Dougherty, Wallace, Worthy, or Jamison could do much about it. Kareem definitely gets the lions share of points in the paint, and you don't loose size when you bring Eaton or Gadzuric off the bench. That's why I'd believe Wooden would zone the entire game and force UNC to beat him from the outside.

I can think of one guy in particular who is better to get the ball to for a big basket...But remember Jordan was defensive player of the year in Pippens rookie season, which we all know Pip didn't get many minutes.

POINT WELL TAKEN...BUT HOW ABOUT A COUNTER-POINT ON MJ's D

Touche to the first statement! You do have a point there. Jordan is indeed clutch. But, Reggie Miller isn't too shabby himself. As for the latter statement, Jordan may have won the DMVP in Pip's rookie year, but I'm sure "we all know" that Jordan won it several more times, when Pip was probably more deserving. I even think in his heart of hearts, MJ knows this.

THANKS

Also, thanks for the Avatar info. But can we upload pics from our own hard drive?

Best [and thanks for the thoughtful responses in this thread],

DR. P

[air gordon]

i agree this is a great thread also. i think some publication, maybe SLAM?, had an article on it with UCLA defeating UNC in the finals. i think it's a toss up between those 2 teams for best alumni team

[Matthew]

It's not about Eaton, true, but I would love to see how UCLA would try and defend such a lethal pick and roll duo or Jordan/ Dougherty or Jordan/ Wallace, especially if Bill Walton's feet restrict his lateral movement.

You're definately right about the possible defense problems UNC would have against Kareem. And they could struggle with no real big name point gaurd that can run the show, but I can't really see UCLA being able to press that well. Maybe have Davis gaurding the inbound pass and some pressure? Half court UCLA could pose some problems, but would you who would be on sheed? Walton or Kareem? I doubt either of them would have the lateral quickness to stay in front of him, and Rasheed could draw one out of the middle to respect his jumper, and that could open up a pick and roll on the other side of the court for Jordan/ Dougherty, and if that play is effective, UCLA's defense could collapse totally.

Reggie Miller is great in the clutch, we can agree on that.

Mike only won the DPOY award once, but he made the all defense team numerous occasions, along with Pippen, who I think made it 8 times if I'm not mistaken.


Unfortunately I think you need to upload the picture onto your own webspace, or just rort the link from nba.com or wherever. you can email me the picture if you need, and ill upload it and see if it works on my site (assuming msn allows remote linking)

All the best P

Matthew

[DR. P]

It's not about Eaton, true, but I would love to see how UCLA would try and defend such a lethal pick and roll duo or Jordan/ Dougherty or Jordan/ Wallace, especially if Bill Walton's feet restrict his lateral movement.

A ZONE WOULD HAVE TO BE WHAT THE DOCTOR ORDERS

Again, solid point. The notion of a Pick and roll with MJ/Dougherty [and not Matt Dougherty I hope ] or MJ/Wallce would indeed be scary. And your exactly right, if Walton was guarding that play man-to-man, given Walton being somewhat slow afoot, that could indeed spell trouble for UCLA. I was under the impression though, that they'd zone UNC and force them into a perimeter game where I think UCLA'd have a legit shot to pull off a mild upset. I will conceed though, if UCLA try'd to play that team man-to-man, then UNC probably would get the best of UCLA.

Half court UCLA could pose some problems, but would you who would be on sheed? Walton or Kareem?

Thats just it. I'd say Zone sheed and the rest of the Heels for the majority of the game. Since Kareem was rather mobile in his hay day [a la Tim Duncan now] I'd say you could even relax a bit with a lead and fall back on some half court pressure if necessary. But even in the zone, I'd play an aggressive one with constant pressure on the PG since there is no definitive ball handler for UNC. If MJ is the point, then that's clearly going to limit his shot attempts. The same thing goes for Vince or Stack, who are probably more likely to turn it over if pressured. The real scary thing for UNC is there versitility on the perimeter. From the 1 to the 3 spots there as good as anyone in history. That's why UCLA has to get the most from its low post tandem.

CLEARING UP THE DMVP ISSUE

Mike only won the DPOY award once, but he made the all defense team numerous occasions, along with Pippen, who I think made it 8 times if I'm not mistaken.

Your totally right and I stand corrected. But, the 8 (+/- 1 or 2) times that MJ did make the all defensive team, didn't always seem as if it was deserving in my view. For instance, there was several times that he won that I thought others like Payton, Kidd, Nate McMillan, or even Mitch Richmond should have received the nod. And once pip was a starter, he was often matched up against the other teams best player, not MJ who often times was matched against a considerably smaller guard in most cases, even when he played SF. So, I have some reservations about MJ's D which appeared to be given alittle "yeast" from his overall popularity.

Also, thanks for the Avatar pointers they were very appreciated. I have a bit of webspace that I'll upload my pics too and see if I can get this thing to work. I just thought the function was disabled or something for some posters and perhaps not others, but clearly that's not the case.

Thanks for your insight,

Best,

P