NBA 2k23 PC to be Last-Gen for 3rd year in a row...

[diamenz]

The nagging concern that I have with the PC version remaining a PS4/X1 port is long term rather than short term. I have NBA 2K21 and NBA 2K22 on PlayStation 5, and in my view, the PC isn't missing out on much by not getting them. That's not to say there isn't stuff in the Next/New Gen version that would be great to have on PC - MyNBA for example - but both games left me rather unimpressed on the whole. Both are full of legacy issues that mean they aren't much better than the PC/PS4/X1 version, if at all. Short term, it's not like the PC is missing out on some transcendent virtual basketball experience.

Long term however, the PC remaining a PS4/X1 port is concerning. Obviously the PS5/XSX version may well improve in several areas (microtransactions obviously not being one of them), and it'd be a shame to miss out on those much better games. More to the point though, there's an assumption that we'll have to wait for the PS4 and X1 to be phased out before the PS5/XSX version comes to PC. My admittedly more pessimistic concern is that once that happens, a PC release simply disappears along with support for the previous console generation.

It's the worst case scenario, but it's not unfeasible. The PC version has a smaller userbase compared to both PlayStation and Xbox versions, and is already basically the lowest priority (or at least on par with the Switch in that regard). Ditching it when the PS4/X1 releases cease, whether that's next year or perhaps the year after, is something that could happen. Getting a PS5/XSX port ahead of that time not only ensures that the PC is on track to have same version that's the top priority, but that it'll continue to receive the game, period.

That's my concern; not that the PC is going to have to wait, not that it's already missing out on some of the best NBA 2Ks ever made, but that it could be on track to be phased out along with the PS4 and X1.

so what exactly does the pc version miss out on aside from graphics? do we get a lesser version of gameplay improvements? maybe we won't get the jordan challenges?

i wonder what the process is... if they work and solidify one base game and then branch it out to current and previous gen from there as far as graphics and features. if that's the case, i really don't mind missing out on the graphics as long as the fundamentals are fixed like the defense and we get a fundamentally solid game.

[Dmayne]

IGN made a very small article about PC version:
"NBA 2K23 On PC Is Still the Previous-Gen Version Despite years of player requests."

https://www.ign.com/articles/nba-2k23-o ... en-version

[Andrew]

so what exactly does the pc version miss out on aside from graphics? do we get a lesser version of gameplay improvements? maybe we won't get the jordan challenges?

i wonder what the process is... if they work and solidify one base game and then branch it out to current and previous gen from there as far as graphics and features. if that's the case, i really don't mind missing out on the graphics as long as the fundamentals are fixed like the defense and we get a fundamentally solid game.

Different builds, and last I read, developed by different teams/studios under the 2K umbrella. However, familiar design choices and assets have resulted in legacy issues on Next Gen, even if it is "built from the ground up" as originally advertised.

Additionally, some of the changes and potential improvements in Next Gen also make their way into Current Gen, but it's not a guarantee that they all will, or that they'll be implemented exactly the same. For example, if you go through the Current Gen and Next Gen patch notes for NBA 2K22, you'll see that they have made similar/identical changes to both versions where the mechanics have the same design (and subsequent flaw). MyTEAM is also identical across platforms, because there's cross-generation progression between PS4 and PS5, and X1/XSX|S. They are different builds and different engines, though.

To that end, it is possible that PC/PS4/X1 could miss out on a feature like the revamped Jordan Challenge. However, they haven't made a point of saying that it's Next Gen-exclusive yet. It's true that 2K has often avoided delivering bad news for as long as possible so as not to look bad (and ironically, ending up looking worse because of the lack of transparency), but at the same time they've also been forthcoming about anything that would sell the flagship version, such as exclusive content and features. Until it's confirmed to be otherwise, I'm assuming the new Jordan Challenge will be in both versions. That is an assumption based on what we currently have to go on though, and not a definitive declaration. I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not.

The PC/PS4/X1 version will potentially be the weaker version regardless, because it's not the priority and may not get all of the improvements they implement on Next Gen. On the other hand, if those ideas on Next Gen fall short or actually make the game worse, Current Gen may not be significantly inferior, and in some ways even preferable. To some extent, it's a matter of taste. It's hard to say until we hear about what they've done, and then try it out for ourselves. With that being said, if there's a version of NBA 2K23 that proves to be a massive improvement, it's more likely going to be the PlayStation 5/Xbox Series X|S release. If so, it will be a shame for the PC to miss out on that.

Like I said though, my long term concern with the PC not getting a Next Gen port is that the platform gets phased out when the previous generation of consoles do. It's a shame not to get the Next Gen version in the short term - especially if NBA 2K23 turns out to be awesome - but the PC is still getting a game, and one that'll likely still be moddable with our existing tools and assets. Short term, PC is getting something. If it continues to be a PS4/X1 port until those consoles are no longer supported, then my concern is that at that point, rather than getting Next Gen, it gets nothing. It's pessimistic, but it's a possibility.

IGN made a very small article about PC version:
"NBA 2K23 On PC Is Still the Previous-Gen Version Despite years of player requests."

https://www.ign.com/articles/nba-2k23-o ... en-version

It's good to see it get some traction in the gaming press, and the plight of PC basketball gamers acknowledged. The comments do illustrate a couple of things, though. The surprise/scepticism people have that others play sports games on PC speaks to how it's a niche group within the overall userbase, which in turn is why it isn't a focus for developers. At the same time, other comments rightfully point out the Catch-22 with the PC version not receiving attention because it doesn't sell as many copies, but not selling as many copies because it doesn't receive adequate attention. That's the tough situation with PC basketball games, and has been since the sixth generation of consoles.

[jmmontoro]

To that end, it is possible that PC/PS4/X1 could miss out on a feature like the revamped Jordan Challenge.

The Jordan Challenge is on the Steam description.

[Andrew]

There you go. Unless it gets deleted and we're advised that it was an error, we can expect it in both versions of NBA 2K23.

[diamenz]

so what exactly does the pc version miss out on aside from graphics? do we get a lesser version of gameplay improvements? maybe we won't get the jordan challenges?

i wonder what the process is... if they work and solidify one base game and then branch it out to current and previous gen from there as far as graphics and features. if that's the case, i really don't mind missing out on the graphics as long as the fundamentals are fixed like the defense and we get a fundamentally solid game.

Different builds, and last I read, developed by different teams/studios under the 2K umbrella. However, familiar design choices and assets have resulted in legacy issues on Next Gen, even if it is "built from the ground up" as originally advertised.

Additionally, some of the changes and potential improvements in Next Gen also make their way into Current Gen, but it's not a guarantee that they all will, or that they'll be implemented exactly the same. For example, if you go through the Current Gen and Next Gen patch notes for NBA 2K22, you'll see that they have made similar/identical changes to both versions where the mechanics have the same design (and subsequent flaw). MyTEAM is also identical across platforms, because there's cross-generation progression between PS4 and PS5, and X1/XSX|S. They are different builds and different engines, though.

To that end, it is possible that PC/PS4/X1 could miss out on a feature like the revamped Jordan Challenge. However, they haven't made a point of saying that it's Next Gen-exclusive yet. It's true that 2K has often avoided delivering bad news for as long as possible so as not to look bad (and ironically, ending up looking worse because of the lack of transparency), but at the same time they've also been forthcoming about anything that would sell the flagship version, such as exclusive content and features. Until it's confirmed to be otherwise, I'm assuming the new Jordan Challenge will be in both versions. That is an assumption based on what we currently have to go on though, and not a definitive declaration. I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not.

The PC/PS4/X1 version will potentially be the weaker version regardless, because it's not the priority and may not get all of the improvements they implement on Next Gen. On the other hand, if those ideas on Next Gen fall short or actually make the game worse, Current Gen may not be significantly inferior, and in some ways even preferable. To some extent, it's a matter of taste. It's hard to say until we hear about what they've done, and then try it out for ourselves. With that being said, if there's a version of NBA 2K23 that proves to be a massive improvement, it's more likely going to be the PlayStation 5/Xbox Series X|S release. If so, it will be a shame for the PC to miss out on that.

Like I said though, my long term concern with the PC not getting a Next Gen port is that the platform gets phased out when the previous generation of consoles do. It's a shame not to get the Next Gen version in the short term - especially if NBA 2K23 turns out to be awesome - but the PC is still getting a game, and one that'll likely still be moddable with our existing tools and assets. Short term, PC is getting something. If it continues to be a PS4/X1 port until those consoles are no longer supported, then my concern is that at that point, rather than getting Next Gen, it gets nothing. It's pessimistic, but it's a possibility.

IGN made a very small article about PC version:
"NBA 2K23 On PC Is Still the Previous-Gen Version Despite years of player requests."

https://www.ign.com/articles/nba-2k23-o ... en-version

It's good to see it get some traction in the gaming press, and the plight of PC basketball gamers acknowledged. The comments do illustrate a couple of things, though. The surprise/scepticism people have that others play sports games on PC speaks to how it's a niche group within the overall userbase, which in turn is why it isn't a focus for developers. At the same time, other comments rightfully point out the Catch-22 with the PC version not receiving attention because it doesn't sell as many copies, but not selling as many copies because it doesn't receive adequate attention. That's the tough situation with PC basketball games, and has been since the sixth generation of consoles.

interesting. thanks for the info/insight.

i did notice that the preorder 2k23 steam page does indeed advertise the jordan challenges, so that's a good sign.

[BlazerGun1]

I know a lot of people want to see prettier graphics but me I'm just content with them putting some sort of effort into stopping the hackfest that is PC.

I don't think it's even that much about the graphics - it's about the content that Current Gen recieves which our Gen doesn't get. For years already we get the same modes without almost anything new.

[jmmontoro]

I know a lot of people want to see prettier graphics but me I'm just content with them putting some sort of effort into stopping the hackfest that is PC.

I don't think it's even that much about the graphics - it's about the content that Current Gen recieves which our Gen doesn't get. For years already we get the same modes without almost anything new.

The content is all there, we just choose to stay away because it's filled with hackers. Any effort into anti-cheat could go a long way for PC.

[pistonnation]

All I want is a great basketball game, with the best franchise modes, most up to date graphical and gameplay enhancements, with ZERO microtransactions. Is that so much to ask for on PC?

I am NOT an online player. I could care less about that crap. I play offline MyLeague and have the best time. I am literally being shut out of a new enhanced game because the 2K Devs are being Embarrassed by the NBA2K Modding Community and don't want to give us the next-gen port because of how much better the modders make the game on PC than the actual devs. 2K Devs are salty af about it.

Before you talk about hackers, I already stated, I do not play online. Viola! No hacker problem for me and all the other offline MyLeague/GM enthusiasts

[JBulls]

microtransactions are the big moneymaker though, the revenue difference between console vs PC is likely vast.

[bikerjimuk]

What annoys me massively is (unless I am very mistaken), both versions are built on PC, the new XBOX is just a PC in a console case and yet they won't give those people with PCs a choice of the 2 versions, like I can get for PS\Xbox!

[Cyber007x]

What annoys me massively is (unless I am very mistaken), both versions are built on PC, the new XBOX is just a PC in a console case and yet they won't give those people with PCs a choice of the 2 versions, like I can get for PS\Xbox!

I dont know if that's saying much. i hate to break it to you but ALL games are made on PCs. so not much is going to be different in that regard. i do share your overall frustration thou. I'll admit, for me its mostly about the graphics and enhancements. i'm a graphics whore

[ThaLiveKing]

2K probably doesn't want to invest in Cross play. EA SPORTS NHL is going through the same issue. 4 different platforms can't play with each other, so playing online is a struggle.

[voidjointx]

EA just announced FIFA23 will be next-gen on PC hehehehehehehehehe
and it has crossplay 2K receiving another fat L... i mean 2K players

[jmmontoro]

EA just announced FIFA23 will be next-gen on PC hehehehehehehehehe
and it has crossplay 2K receiving another fat L... i mean 2K players

Can't believe I'm going to praise EA, but they always cared about cheating and actually do something about it to the point where it's safe for them to bring next gen and cross play to PC. It all starts with wanting to do something about it.

[ThaLiveKing]

EA just announced FIFA23 will be next-gen on PC hehehehehehehehehe
and it has crossplay 2K receiving another fat L... i mean 2K players

Can't believe I'm going to praise EA, but they always cared about cheating and actually do something about it to the point where it's safe for them to bring next gen and cross play to PC. It all starts with wanting to do something about it.

They did a FIFA 22 test for cross-play, in some ways it wasn't a surprise. I'm hoping Madden hits PC because people can do scripts to make the camera angles better lol.

[ThePointForward]

I have a feeling that VC may be actually understaffed and unfortunately making a game run "on PC" is a bit more work than people seem to acknowledge, because you need to make it works for giant amount of combinations of hardware and software.

Just looking at the Steam HW survey for July 2022:

Operating System: 73 % people are on Windows 10, 21 % on Windows 11 and 2 % on Windows 7.
That means you need to take into account Windows 10 and Windows 11. When it comes to Windows 7.

GPUs: The Steam survey is dominated by various nVidia GPUs (76.19 %), mostly mid-range ones. AMD's first card is at 17th spot.
CPUs: 68.45 % for Intel, 31.55 % for AMD.

Now the fun problem is that consoles use AMD chips. Now you have to make it work for completely different machines.

All of this takes time and we all know that Take Two's focus in development for it's studios is clearly in monetization. If VC is understaffed like I think, I'm sadly not surprised they're not able to make the game run on PC.
Kinda brings me back to somethign I've been saying for a while: NBA 2K should release like twice per console gen.

[sticky-fingers]

I think you're totally right.
Best exemple is that they have one guy to work on the AI offense and defence (2 before)... One for retro CFs etc...

While the credits are 20 minutes long, the core dev team seems understaffed and to me, they try to reassemble countless pieces provided by various teams with various quality.

Thats why it pissed and still pisses me off when 2K announced WNBA.
They spent a lot of time and resource to work on this mode while they could and should fixed A LOT of thing since a long time, specially the retro CFs they use now for 2 or 3 gen. you can also rely this to arenas art in very low resolution, very old animation files etc...

[Hadley88]

I have a feeling that VC may be actually understaffed and unfortunately making a game run "on PC" is a bit more work than people seem to acknowledge, because you need to make it works for giant amount of combinations of hardware and software.

Just looking at the Steam HW survey for July 2022:

Operating System: 73 % people are on Windows 10, 21 % on Windows 11 and 2 % on Windows 7.
That means you need to take into account Windows 10 and Windows 11. When it comes to Windows 7.

GPUs: The Steam survey is dominated by various nVidia GPUs (76.19 %), mostly mid-range ones. AMD's first card is at 17th spot.
CPUs: 68.45 % for Intel, 31.55 % for AMD.

Now the fun problem is that consoles use AMD chips. Now you have to make it work for completely different machines.

All of this takes time and we all know that Take Two's focus in development for it's studios is clearly in monetization. If VC is understaffed like I think, I'm sadly not surprised they're not able to make the game run on PC.
Kinda brings me back to somethign I've been saying for a while: NBA 2K should release like twice per console gen.

Thats all bullshit. In the end its a simple numbers Game. They never put any effort into the PC Versions, never! I played 2K9-2019 all on PC and it was always only bare minimum effort.

The problem is since they never put any effort in, every year the reviews got worse and less people bought the next-years Game. And that spiral just means that PC became less and less important. Now PC is on the same level was the Nintendo which just gets yearly Database Updates.

Also Console-Kids make them way more money. I bet most PC Players are Sim-Players who mostly play MyLeague only, which is the only mode that isn't monetized.

At the end the Devs dont make these decisions, its some fucking accountant who never played a fucking NBA Game in his life that just ran it through a Spreadsheet and came to the conclusion that putting effort and money into a PC Version does not make financial sense.

[ThePointForward]

Thats all bullshit. In the end its a simple numbers Game. They never put any effort into the PC Versions, never! I played 2K9-2019 all on PC and it was always only bare minimum effort.

The problem is since they never put any effort in, every year the reviews got worse and less people bought the next-years Game. And that spiral just means that PC became less and less important. Now PC is on the same level was the Nintendo which just gets yearly Database Updates.

Also Console-Kids make them way more money. I bet most PC Players are Sim-Players who mostly play MyLeague only, which is the only mode that isn't monetized.

At the end the Devs dont make these decisions, its some fucking accountant who never played a fucking NBA Game in his life that just ran it through a Spreadsheet and came to the conclusion that putting effort and money into a PC Version does not make financial sense.

Sorry, I know you want to do your yearly rant, but you pretty much agree with half my post, so calling it "all bullshit" tells me you probably haven't read it past the first sentence.

[jmmontoro]

The problem with PC is not with hardware, it's anticheat, and in that department it's not minimum effort, it's actually zero effort. It all starts with cheating, why would any PC player waste time online or money in microtransactions for a game that's completely unfair? And it's not just anticheat, 2K doesn't even invest in antipiracy, these games are always cracked minutes after release. Of course their metrics for PC are all poor, what is mindblowing is how they don't figure out why, because if they do realize why then it's worse that they don't even care.

[ThePointForward]

The problem with PC is not with hardware, it's anticheat, and in that department it's not minimum effort, it's actually zero effort. It all starts with cheating, why would any PC player waste time online or money in microtransactions for a game that's completely unfair? And it's not just anticheat, 2K doesn't even invest in antipiracy, these games are always cracked minutes after release. Of course their metrics for PC are all poor, what is mindblowing is how they don't figure out why, because if they do realize why then it's worse that they don't even care.

That's Take Two, not just 2K. The same approach is across their companies like 2K, but also Rockstar. GTA Online on PC was an insufferable mess for several years until most cheaters actually simply lost interest. The only thing that gets focused on in this regard is stuff that interferes with microtransactions.


But honestly why would they care. The NBA 2K on PC has been growing slowly but steadily over the years. So why would they care...
Concurrent peak players by year:
2K9 - 750
2K10 - 229
2K11 - 375
2K12 - 703
2K13 - 1769
2K14 - 2315

Up until this point I think the games were available outside of Steam as well, so these numbers above are pretty much worthless.
---

2K15 - 8203 (next-gen back then), game was only on Steam on PC I think
2K16 - 9322
2K17 - 14905
2K18 - 25432
2K19 - 29202
2K20 - 48375
2K21 - 31826 (current gen disappointment)
2K22 - 46661 (presumably covid)

2K21 was also released on EGS though I suspect it didn't work out too much and some games were also on MS Store IIRC.

Anyway, people clearly buy the game, there is a clear dip because of lack of next-gen, but still solid numbers. To compare, that's similar all time peaks to Shadow of Mordor, Rimworld, Rise of the Tomb Raider, Subnautica or the Hitman reboot. And we're talking about the all time peak, meaning their top popularity.

The sales estimates for 2K22 on Steam are between 260k on the low end to 2 million copies on the high end. That's nothing to scoff about. And the shotcallers prbably see that they do not need to invest too much for the game to be relative success (low maintenance yearly update still brings in nice amount of money - if I take that lowball estimate of 260k and multiply it by 20 dollars per sale (and that figure is gonna be much higher), I'm over 5 million dollars just like that and like I said, I would be surprised if it was this low both in sales and amount of money per sale when including microtransactions).

[jmmontoro]

Even on a rough guess PC vs console metrics are very console favoured. I still stand that it's because of a lack of anticheat and antipiracy effort.
You used GTA V as an example but Rockstar actually put a lot of effort into antipiracy to the point that GTA V was one of the hardest games to crack forcing a lot of people into buying the game and thus empowering GTA Online. Now online had a few issues with cheaters at the beginning but that has changed they're always working on closing exploits and if you go crazy with cheats like with NBA 2K you will get banned fast.

[Andrew]

I have a feeling that VC may be actually understaffed and unfortunately making a game run "on PC" is a bit more work than people seem to acknowledge, because you need to make it works for giant amount of combinations of hardware and software.

Just looking at the Steam HW survey for July 2022:

Operating System: 73 % people are on Windows 10, 21 % on Windows 11 and 2 % on Windows 7.
That means you need to take into account Windows 10 and Windows 11. When it comes to Windows 7.

GPUs: The Steam survey is dominated by various nVidia GPUs (76.19 %), mostly mid-range ones. AMD's first card is at 17th spot.
CPUs: 68.45 % for Intel, 31.55 % for AMD.

Now the fun problem is that consoles use AMD chips. Now you have to make it work for completely different machines.

All of this takes time and we all know that Take Two's focus in development for it's studios is clearly in monetization. If VC is understaffed like I think, I'm sadly not surprised they're not able to make the game run on PC.
Kinda brings me back to somethign I've been saying for a while: NBA 2K should release like twice per console gen.

Well said, those are some illuminating numbers. The technical challenges are often overlooked when it comes to PC gaming. Dedicated PC gamers know their stuff and likely have great rigs, but the annual "Can I run this?" posts and the survey results demonstrate that a lot of people are getting by with specs that just scrape by the minimum requirements, or still fall well short of the recommended ones. That's not even getting into needing to support different hardware configurations.

As far as staffing goes, when I spoke to some former NBA Live developers for our 25th Anniversary content, including Rod Roddekopp, they mentioned that the team was much smaller shortly after NBA Live 2000, which contributed to the PC port being delayed, its potential patch being scrapped, and NBA Live 2002 being a console exclusive. I'd definitely agree that understaffing is likely a factor with NBA 2K PC as well, on top of not being the focus to begin with.

[ThePointForward]

As far as staffing goes, when I spoke to some former NBA Live developers for our 25th Anniversary content, including Rod Roddekopp, they mentioned that the team was much smaller shortly after NBA Live 2000, which contributed to the PC port being delayed, its potential patch being scrapped, and NBA Live 2002 being a console exclusive. I'd definitely agree that understaffing is likely a factor with NBA 2K PC as well, on top of not being the focus to begin with.

Well, it is unfortunately well known that game development is one of the worst part of software development industry. I hope that's changing as there seems to be a push both social from the public and workers in some places unionizing.

Not to mention that it's often the devs, who love their games and can probably be disgruntled themselves with the decisions made by shot callers who are much higher in the food chain, can be often target of the flak from gamers instead of the anonymous shot callers. We have seen high profile game devs decide to GTFO from social media after receiving hate and even death threats. And I don't blame them, because dealing with that is simply not something I'd want to do either.
And honestly, even NLSC's very own Leftos did pull back from both forums and social media at least for some time, even though he used to try and help people on PC as much as he could, gather reports, etc when he got his job at VC. Maybe it's a company policy to prevent unintentional leaks, maybe he just doesn't have the time anymore, maybe it's the above, or maybe all of it in part.