NBA 2K20 WNBA Integration Trailer

[sticky-fingers]

I'm just here to watch sticky-fingers continue to be in well over his head.

We can't all be happy by 2K announcements.
I think I have expressed my opinion and stayed courteous to others members and on the subject.
So these kind of sentence, moreover by a team member, is something inappropriate in my opinion

[ThePointForward]

Wonder what that clapping emoji is supposed to mean... ( ) Is it supposed to be some "gotcha"?

You were explained in detail why these things matter and continued to die on a hill not worth dying on. Continued to make same vague talking points and not clear answer on what exactly should've been worked on like I asked.

[sticky-fingers]

Wonder what that clapping emoji is supposed to mean... ( ) Is it supposed to be some "gotcha"?

I applauded the very interesting and respectful intervention of bigh0rt.

Continued to make same vague talking points and not clear answer on what exactly should've been worked on like I asked.

perhaps you should read my previous post ?

Which ways ?
- AI & Gameplay
- Animations
- Rosters
- Graphics
- Retro content

Perhaps its not enough detailled, but I supposedly talked to smart people.
Or you think the NBA part is perfect, so ok, let's add WNBA.

I can live with bluejaybrandon argument, its a business decision.
But dont tell me that the ressources put on WNBA could have been used to improve the NBA modes.
Last example, retro faces (check legends screenshots) are the same for years, and still not perfect, by far.

[ThePointForward]

perhaps you should read my previous post ?

Which ways ?
- AI & Gameplay
- Animations
- Rosters
- Graphics
- Retro content

Perhaps its not enough detailled, but I supposedly talked to smart people.
Or you think the NBA part is perfect, so ok, let's add WNBA.

I can live with bluejaybrandon argument, its a business decision.
But dont tell me that the ressources put on WNBA could have been used to improve the NBA modes.
Last example, retro faces (check legends screenshots) are the same for years, and still not perfect, by far.

I did and you got answers for it too. But let's reiterate:

• AI & Gameplay - I fail to see how mostly art teams would improve AI or gameplay. Either way they did talk about WNBA gameplay being different and I'm sure those systems are of use in the NBA part as well.
• Animations - We get new animations every year. They just added whole bunch of them, again some of them should be usable across the board and for example they mentioned how they improved hair animation which would be useful or some male players too.
• Rosters - Again, mostly shouldn't be affected by this.
• Graphics - Not gonna happen on this gen, hardware limitations and we're literally 1 year before next-gen console release.
• Retro content - This did not age well, did it. They just announced more retro content.

Perhaps its not enough detailled, but I supposedly talked to smart people.

Sick burn. Lemme add this:

Or you think the NBA part is perfect, so ok, let's add WNBA.

I can live with bluejaybrandon argument, its a business decision.

I said literally the same, it's a business decision. On several fronts too. Also don't strawman me.

But dont tell me that the ressources put on WNBA could have been used to improve the NBA modes.
Last example, retro faces (check legends screenshots) are the same for years, and still not perfect, by far.

Diminishing returns. Most people will be fine with those faces and again business decisions come to play - you can spend time and money on a new selling point or you can tinker with something most players are fine with already.


Not to mention they might have it in their licensing agreement with NBA. NBA and Adam Silver are pushing on promotion of WNBA in past two ish years, which means they might've said "we'll give you 5 million per year discount on the licensing deal" if you include WNBA in your game.
This is a speculation, but not far fetched.

[sticky-fingers]

2K adds WNBA in the game, and of course, this is a business decision, we dont discuss about this point.
Indeed, I write in a candid way, hoping for a perfect game. But i'm not naive on their choices.

You like WNBA, you're happy that they add it. Okay.
But a large part of 2K community reacts and says : "waste of ressources for an unpolished game".

You mostly write here that WNBA developpement has no impact on NBA modes.
Of course it impacts NBA modes. Or you simply dont understand how project management works.

You talk about 2K toxic community, but this kind of reaction is toxic, justifying 2K's decision and hiding behind the "business decision" argument.

[bluejaybrandon]

2K adds WNBA in the game, and of course, this is a business decision, we dont discuss about this point.
Indeed, I write in a candid way, hoping for a perfect game. But i'm not naive on their choices.

You like WNBA, you're happy that they add it. Okay.
But a large part of 2K community reacts and says : "waste of ressources for an unpolished game".

You mostly write here that WNBA developpement has no impact on NBA modes.
Of course it impacts NBA modes. Or you simply dont understand how project management works.

You talk about 2K toxic community, but this kind of reaction is toxic, justifying 2K's decision and hiding behind the "business decision" argument.

Nobody is hiding behind anything. Just because it’s a business decision doesn’t mean I have to agree it’s great. I know WHY they did it and if you watch the gameplay it’s pretty clear they made major strides in other departments at the same time. I don’t know how you can be so irrationally upset that they added the WNBA. It’s not like 2k did literally nothing else but add this. I’m not blindly agreeing that 2k is without fault, I’m just saying good on them to include the WNBA which will hopefully allow it to grow and bring new eyes (and in 2k’s case, checkbooks) to NBA2k20.

[sticky-fingers]

I'm not upset, we saw it coming, TGsoGood dug into the subject weeks ago.

I just said that i dont care about WNBA, and I would have preferred that 2K works on NBA modes.
Then you both jumped on me "it's a business decision"...
Well, and then ? Me and other people -more or less measured and respectful- who dont care about this new mode have the right to tell it.
That doest mean we dont understand the strategy behind, but we do not support it, even if we'll buy the game another time... until we stop.

There's also a positive aspect of this new mode : more slots for roster edit...

[bluejaybrandon]

I'm not upset, we saw it coming, TGsoGood dug into the subject weeks ago.

I just said that i dont care about WNBA, and I would have preferred that 2K works on NBA modes.
Then you both jumped on me "it's a business decision"...
Well, and then ? Me and other people -more or less measured and respectful- who dont care about this new mode have the right to tell it.
That doest mean we dont understand the strategy behind, but we do not support it, even if we'll buy the game another time... until we stop.

There's also a positive aspect of this new mode : more slots for roster edit...

But then why comment or point it out in the first place? I don’t care for MyTeam so I avoid MyTeam threads. I don’t actively go in there and complain that the time spent there could be utilized to improve MyCareer or MyLeague. It’s another aspect of an evolving game.

Your argument essentially boils down to, they made the WNBA and wasted time and resources doing it when they could make the NBA part better. But that could be refined even further...they could eliminate all game modes and spend all their time on a Play Now only version that is the most realistic, entertaining basketball game available. But they don’t do that because other modes bring in revenue and interest. Additionally, the people working on all the different modes don’t necessarily handle the production of other aspects of the gameplay, graphics, etc and therefore there’s not a waste of resources.

My point is this, you came into the thread solely to lambast the inclusion of the WNBA. I get it, it’s popular to claim it isn’t real basketball. But there are people out there that will buy it solely for this inclusion and that justifies its inclusion.

[sticky-fingers]

But then why comment or point it out in the first place?

Because it's a sub-forum about NBA2K20, there's this new feature, so you and i can post our opinion.

But that could be refined even further..
...
.they could eliminate all game modes and spend all their time on a Play Now only version that is the most realistic, entertaining basketball game available.

Of course, it's their product and they always add or remove modes over the years.

Additionally, the people working on all the different modes don’t necessarily handle the production of other aspects of the gameplay, graphics, etc and therefore there’s not a waste of resources.

Here, you're totally wrong and proove that you dont know how managing a project works.
- If they hire people, this budget could have been allocated elsewhere. For example, buying one or two (...) other online servers and/or hiring real devs to optimize netcode, to hire some guys to update rosters every day/week, to hire art team to update 2K9~11 textures still in the game, to hire a trainee to clean all the useless files of the old games etc...
- If they dont hire people and allocate NBA resources on WNBA, then, the NBA part has been neglected compared to other years. And from my point of view, it's not a good move.

My point is this, you came into the thread solely to lambast the inclusion of the WNBA.

Of course, but i explained why...

I get it, it’s popular to claim it isn’t real basketball.

No, it's real basketball. Same for Euroleague on previous 2K.
But it's not NBA.

[[Q]]

Who says that if they didn't spend money making WNBA that it would have been spent on something else? Companies love pocketing money, especially since it increases profit numbers and the bottom line.

[bluejaybrandon]

But then why comment or point it out in the first place?

Because it's a sub-forum about NBA2K20, there's this new feature, so you and i can post our opinion.

But that could be refined even further..
...
.they could eliminate all game modes and spend all their time on a Play Now only version that is the most realistic, entertaining basketball game available.

Of course, it's their product and they always add or remove modes over the years.

Additionally, the people working on all the different modes don’t necessarily handle the production of other aspects of the gameplay, graphics, etc and therefore there’s not a waste of resources.

Here, you're totally wrong and proove that you dont know how managing a project works.
- If they hire people, this budget could have been allocated elsewhere. For example, buying one or two (...) other online servers and/or hiring real devs to optimize netcode, to hire some guys to update rosters every day/week, to hire art team to update 2K9~11 textures still in the game, to hire a trainee to clean all the useless files of the old games etc...
- If they dont hire people and allocate NBA resources on WNBA, then, the NBA part has been neglected compared to other years. And from my point of view, it's not a good move.

My point is this, you came into the thread solely to lambast the inclusion of the WNBA.

Of course, but i explained why...

I get it, it’s popular to claim it isn’t real basketball.

No, it's real basketball. Same for Euroleague on previous 2K.
But it's not NBA.

I’m genuinely curious as to what management experience you have? You claim no one knows, but if you actually managed employees or ran a small company you’d know that is in no way how it works. You don’t just reallocate funds each year in ways that are totally different from the previous year. You build off each year. Salaried employees stay and work in similar capacities. This isn’t a video game where you put 3 points into A WNBA mode and take two out of graphics and one from gameplay.

2k didn’t hire a WNBA team this year. They had the same employees who worked on the game last year work on this new aspect. You don’t just reallocate a complete budget, and even if they did they surely wouldn’t waste it on the nonsense you pointed out.

Adding servers isn’t a problem, it’s clear they can handle the capacity 99.9% of the time.

Who needs the roster updated daily? There aren’t even transactions that often. And it would be miserable if they overacted to each individual game a player played just for a reason to update. 2k isn’t gonna pour money down the drain for some intern to adjust ratings all day.

They don’t need an art team, they have one. Idk what textures you’re referring to but the majority are fine and those that aren’t are likely that way to allow the game to run smoothly on console. They aren’t looking for 4K everything, it would melt an Xbox.

Again, in no way did 2k hire a team specifically for the WNBA. The art team did the art, the gameplay guys did the motion, etc just like base 2k. You’re irrationally attacking the WNBA inclusion like it detracts from NBA 2k20 in any appreciable way.

[ThePointForward]

You talk about 2K toxic community, but this kind of reaction is toxic, justifying 2K's decision and hiding behind the "business decision" argument.

I don't think you know what 'toxic' means. Of course they added WNBA as a result of a business decision. Why exactly is up to people in charge and they're unlikely to share.
Like I said, it could've been a licensing discount or maybe good PR, etc.

Here, you're totally wrong and proove that you dont know how managing a project works.
- If they hire people, this budget could have been allocated elsewhere. For example, buying one or two (...) other online servers and/or hiring real devs to optimize netcode, to hire some guys to update rosters every day/week, to hire art team to update 2K9~11 textures still in the game, to hire a trainee to clean all the useless files of the old games etc...
- If they dont hire people and allocate NBA resources on WNBA, then, the NBA part has been neglected compared to other years. And from my point of view, it's not a good move.

I don't think you realize that most people are hired already for years now. They have salaried employees.
The art team is gonna be there for let's say 40 hours a week browsing cute cat pictures if you don't give them anything to work on. Firing them would be managerial suicide, because like I said - you have 1 year before next-gen consoles are released.
So you can either have them work on a new feature that can bring in new people to the game or you can have them update some obscure old texture that 99% of players didn't even notice. You imply you know about management, so which option is better?

And as far as "NBA part being neglected". We got bunch of news about gameplay and the movement from leaked footage seems visibly improved. It's almost like the multi-year side project that is the WNBA modes didn't affect them much and that some of the stuff they're doing is shared between NBA and WNBA.

Furthermore I did some educated guessing and 10 new devs could cost north of 2 million USD the first year (and/or take away time and resources from current devs). And they probably wouldn't be able to improve much of the game in first 6 months.

But then why comment or point it out in the first place?

Because it's a sub-forum about NBA2K20, there's this new feature, so you and i can post our opinion.

However you seem to be surprised when people criticize your opinion on its merits.


You call yourself "courteous", "measured" and "respectful" yet you go for low-key insults when called out.
You were asked repeatedly for specific improvements you'd want them to work on instead of WNBA and provided only vague list of two words at most per line, which either was irrelevant to the discussion (artists are not magicians, they are not gonna improve vague 'graphics' when the hardware is already being pushed as it is) or backfired immediately due to 2K already having announced changes in that regard or they were announced shortly after.

[sticky-fingers]

If they hired no one and fired no one, so last two years it was basicly the same team.
If I follow your logic, they must have seen a lot of cute cat pictures.
Again, it doesnt work like that...
btw, 2K works in parallel on "next" next gen version, so their schedule must be busy this year.
And again, if they dont hire people, so they allocate NBA resources on WNBA, then, the NBA part has been neglected compared to other years, or their team have seen fewer cute cat pictures...
That doesn't mean they haven't made any changes on NBA modes (yeah, i read their announcements), but there are inevitably fewer of them due to inclusion of WNBA.

When I give you quick examples your answer was systematically "business decision" or improvement not needed.
But if the scan team, art team worked 40 hours on females cyberfaces, they could have worked on current and retro faces. Why ? Because the job is mostly AVERAGE (even on WNBA faces btw...).
You need detailled examples ? Go on 2k17/18/19 modding sections, read CF threads and compare default faces with modded faces, even on superstars and cover athletes.
It's even worse for arenas. Some textures are related to an era where FHD wasnt even the norm. Now, on upgraded consoles (PS4 Pro) and even more on PC, you can play at 4K with 60fps.
You judge that these improvements arent necessary, it's your choice. But check forums, twitter, reddit, and check if these threads have more or less posts than this one.
And 2K is aware of it, last year for example, they finally update Larry Bird face, because his previous CF looked like Angela Merkel...
So i judge that WNBA in the game is not necessary.

You call yourself "courteous", "measured" and "respectful" yet you go for low-key insults when called out.

I mean, about WNBA inclusion, in comparizon to this type of comments
Tell me when I insulted you ?

[BronBron06]

So are the overalls for women of NBA 2k20 in the 50s?
Dont worry it will be rated in 70s by NBA 2k30 when the women are totally replaced by trannies.

[sticky-fingers]

No, 2K rate them in the same way they rate Legends.



The second part of your comments is what i consider a toxic comment.

[ThePointForward]

If they hired no one and fired no one, so last two years, so it was basicly the same team.
If I follow your logic, they must have seen a lot of cute cat pictures.
Again, it doesnt work like that...

Or maybe you just don't see or don't acknowledge changes under the hood. You keep repeating "it doesnt work like that" but don't say how you think it does.
Every year 2K brings new textures, faces or animations. Those things are not a 5 minute work.
You know what else artists work on? MyCareer story. And now MyGM story too. Those things aren't trivial either.

btw, 2K works in parallel on "next" next gen version, so their schedule must be busy this year.

Uh... yeah. I might have mentioned it once or twice.
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments ... _for_2k20/ and pretty sure I posted about it here on the forums too. It's a public knowledge.

And again, if they dont hire people, so they allocate NBA resources on WNBA, then, the NBA part has been neglected compared to other years, or their team have seen fewer cute cat pictures...
That doesn't mean they haven't made any changes on NBA modes (yeah, i read their announcements), but there are inevitably fewer of them due to inclusion of WNBA.

And again, some of the stuff is between NBA and WNBA. You think they'd add 3-5 thousand animations (Mike Wang's words) just for a Play Now and single Season modes? Or do you think it's possible they'll add these animation to MyCareer and CAP? Maybe preparing themselves for possible female MyPlayers next year.
You're saying the NBA part is being neglected, but you are not saying how, besides few generic terms.

When I give you quick examples your answer was systematically "business decision" or improvement not needed.

Because... it's a business decision. 2K is a business. Their goal is to make money, they don't care if the product is perfect as long as it makes money and grows.
Devs on the other hand generally care about quality of their games, but they also have management doing... business decisions. telling them what to work on.
That's how management works. It's their job. Why do you think they added all these minigames and dances to Park? Because people left after 2 months and went to Fortnite. There was a survey in 2K18 and that was first answer to "why did you stop playing?" - they were definitely seeing it as a competition so they added literal Battle Royale mode etc.
And do you know what that was? Business. Decision.

But if the scan team, art team worked 40 hours on females cyberfaces, they could have worked on current and retro faces. Why ? Because the job is mostly AVERAGE.
You need detailled examples ? Go on 2k17/18/19 modding sections, read CF threads and compare default faces with modded faces, even on superstars and cover athletes.
It's even worst for arenas. Some textures are related to an era where FHD wasnt even the norm. Now, on upgraded consoles (PS4 Pro) and even more on PC, you can play at 4K with 60fps.
You judge that these improvements arent necessary, it's your choice. But check forums, twitter, reddit, and check if these threads have more or less posts than this one.
And 2K is aware of it, last year for example, they finally update Larry Bird face, because his previous CF looked like Angela Merkel...

And yet most players will not notice. Modding community is a niche audience. Or people will notice, complain and still buy the new game.
Like I said, that's diminishing returns. Occasionally they rework some faces, especially when NBA players themselves are like "WTF 2K", but again, they had to choose between new feature with positive PR trying to bring new players or updating bunch of content that is already in the game that will not bring new players because like I said... it's in the game already.
Also Larry Bird looked like Michael Rapaport in previous games. Of course they had to fix him when they brought in actual Michael Rapaport to the game. \s

So i judge that WNBA in the game is not necessary.

Many things in the game aren't necessary. But if they bring money they become necessary for managers.
Also I'm pretty sure if this was Create-a-Legend announcement it suddenly wouldn't be waste of time.
Overall most people care about 2 things: MyCareer (Park) and MyTeam. Adding WNBA has potential to draw new customers to both in the upcoming games.



Also agreed that the BronBron06 is a daft git. Saying he'll use nude mods and then this... Like c'mon. Also you're on the internet, just go watch some porn ffs.

[Andrew]

So are the overalls for women of NBA 2k20 in the 50s?
Dont worry it will be rated in 70s by NBA 2k30 when the women are totally replaced by trannies.

Yeah, enough of that. See the fifth point under Rule #1.

[Stildo33]

Which ways ?
- AI & Gameplay
- Animations
- Rosters
- Graphics
- Retro content

From the trailer, you can already say that the lighting is mostly the same, and that old gen arenas textures in low res are still there.

IMO 2K had the best sport game, and by far, in early 10's. But now, it's not even questionnable.
Perhaps really working on above-mentioned points would help.

So, wasting time to capture WNBA players animations, and scanning their face, yeah, it's annoying for me.

Do you really think that WNBA take the game to another level of exposure ?! I dont think WNBA helped a lot Live 19...

How many people REALLY played all that Euro stuff from a couple of years ago? I'm sure some did and it was great for them. Was it in 2k18? Nope. What about 2k19? Nope. Hmmmmmm. It's more popular, globally, than the WNBA. So here, is a great idea.......Lets ADD the WNBA as a new feature to the game because that will "drive revenue". Total BS. It's a political movement by 2k, which I am fine with adding WNBA to the game, but let's not over-hype this either. I think that is Sticky's frustration? I think the point is, those time resources and dollars could've been better spent on improving things that have needed help over the years.

Adding more classic teams to the 80s/90s that most people on here grew up watching along with improving performances year over year on AI/graphics, etc., would be a better use of time/talent/HD space, IMO, and thats all it is...my opinion.

Sticky-fingers makes a great point....the TV ratings all sucked and always have. It's been a yawn fest for 22 years and counting......it will NEVER be as popular as the NBA so let's not compare apples vs. green beans.

If 2k wanted to drive revenue, they would go make a college game with generic faces/players and let our community make it accurate. That would be time/talent/money reinvested well. Not the WNBA.

******yawn****** I am already bored talking about WNBA for this long.

[Dee4Three]

The WNBA done right, is a welcome addition. And, the ladies deserve it.

Glad to see them integrating the WNBA. Whether you like it or not, it brings positive attention to the league and the women who play in it, attention they deserve. The WNBA has been around for a couple decades now, and this will be the first time its appropriately represented in a video game.

2K will do what they always do. They will keep it now in future games and build on it. Obviously, I am frustrated with legacy issues that plague the game and continue to be in it year after year, and the player movement issues (which some are still in it after playing the demo), but the WNBA being in the game is a positive regardless.

[Andrew]

It's also worth noting that the Euroleague license is known to be quite expensive. The WNBA licensing would no doubt be part and parcel with the NBA license 2K already has.

[ThePointForward]

And considering how Adam Silver has been pushing for WNBA it might've even been a discount on the whole package for implementing it. For NBA it would've been investment, for 2K discount.

Also keep in mind Euroleague was kinda half-arsed. Or was it national teams? Probably both.

[Stildo33]

And considering how Adam Silver has been pushing for WNBA it might've even been a discount on the whole package for implementing it. For NBA it would've been investment, for 2K discount.

Also keep in mind Euroleague was kinda half-arsed. Or was it national teams? Probably both.

Fair point on the Euroleague. That license is probably a fortune and I am sure the WNBA license was nothing/lumped in with the NBA licensing to promote it. Obviously, EuroLeague isn't going to be nearly as popular in the US as it is in Europe or even globally, even if it was half-arsed (agree it was).

Like I said, it's great the WNBA is there, just hate seeing resources dedicated to it when there are so many other things that need fixed first.