NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Talk about NBA Live 20 here.

Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby [Q] on Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:30 am

Pdub wrote:How many times will EA make the same mistake? They upgraded Live 06 for next-gen, fans complained, they rebooted again, more complaints, more shortcomings. Elite 11 reboot cancelled and failed, reboot to Live 12/13 cancelled, launch title 14 was really bad, 15 and 16 were pretty good, and they "skip" 17 to make 18 which was really 17 because it didn't have such a big jump that we expected, but was still solid.

What did you all think of 19 compared to 18? I didn't play it. Any solid forward progression?

18 was a lot of fun and I was really hyped for 19 after announcements of new modes but court battles wasn't that fun after I unlocked what I wanted. Having 3 different xp bars turned the one into a grind fest especially at the higher levels. Turning Live Run into a full game experience killed it for me as I didn't want to play full length games with randoms online. Ultimate Team was overhauled and took a huge step back. The game was also broken with a patch during the season much like 18. Overall a big disappointment. I'm definitely not pre ordering 20, may just wait for a killer sale if I even get it at all
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby kingpnp on Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:44 am

Andrew wrote:The heavy focus on The One came at the expense of other modes, with Ultimate Team taking several steps backwards. The NBA side of gameplay was also neglected in favour of The Streets and LIVE Events, though the controls were a bit more fluid and responsive. Not enough of a jump forward in my opinion though, and arguably a bit of a step back. It's certainly not where or what it needs to be as of NBA Live 19.

The reason they focused some much on "THE ONE" and that utlimately put all other modes to the back there were offline/team modes. Is because they know what the stats show about 2k. Mycareer is by far the most popular mode. the only thing that comes close is Ultimate team. So for live to be different in the same genre(nba basketball game). they chose to go more with the personal mode (my career aka The one).

I'm actually glad they did that. because its my favorite mode by far and again we know its MOST people's favorite mode. lastly, if you ever perfect the movement and play off user vs users with the one mode. It will leak into the other modes for a much better experience. It's a lot easier to force CPU players to play a certain way with certain animations. But to clean up all the user controlled player issues is something else. so if they ever fixed that stuff. The game would pretty much be fixed for all modes.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby [Q] on Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:11 am

That's easier said than done. I think there's such a big difference between online PvP and offline play they seriously need two different sets of sliders and have them play differently in order for it to be fun
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:43 pm

The career modes and connected experiences are the most popular, no doubt. However, it's not as though nobody plays franchise modes anymore, and one of NBA 2K's strengths is that there's depth across all of its modes. Conversely, depth is one of NBA Live's weaknesses, as modes not only lack basic functionality and features that are standard in 2019, but also things that were present in NBA Live more than fifteen years ago. A focus on The One is understandable, but it's also been to the detriment of the overall experience, especially as it still isn't as deep as MyCAREER anyway. If nothing else, the focus on The Streets has negatively affected the quality of NBA gameplay, be it The League, Franchise, Ultimate Team, or Play Now.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Pdub on Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:03 pm

I wonder what the difference in budget is for the two games.
Everything is a copy of a copy. Eventually, it distorts enough to look original.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:29 pm

Significant, I would imagine. NBA 2K20 just set records for the most copies sold in the history of the series, and "recurrent revenue" is up 140%.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby kingpnp on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:34 am

Andrew wrote:The career modes and connected experiences are the most popular, no doubt. However, it's not as though nobody plays franchise modes anymore, and one of NBA 2K's strengths is that there's depth across all of its modes. Conversely, depth is one of NBA Live's weaknesses, as modes not only lack basic functionality and features that are standard in 2019, but also things that were present in NBA Live more than fifteen years ago. A focus on The One is understandable, but it's also been to the detriment of the overall experience, especially as it still isn't as deep as MyCAREER anyway. If nothing else, the focus on The Streets has negatively affected the quality of NBA gameplay, be it The League, Franchise, Ultimate Team, or Play Now.


This is true. I mean how many people are on 2k's team vs how many people have EA allotted to nba Live's team for the entire time it takes to build and release a game +updates during the year? I bet its night and day where 2k probably has 3 times if not more people working on the game. this affords 2k the ability to push more content. In addition 2k has always be super content heavy. Well before they blew up and took the #1 spot. What 2k has done recently is take away things they have already had for a couple of seasons, then bring it back under a new name with new colors and call it brand new. The reason is because they were so content heavy from the jump trying to beat out live with content. So now they are on top and they no longer have to fill up the box score. lol. So they choose to go that sneaky route i just suggested. It's apart of their nba contract, same for EA. they have to have add something NEW every season. This is something stern put into the contracts back in the day. This is why on both games people would get ticked when they are touting this new thing and most are like dude..just fix your servers, or "dude..just fix the game play."

Since live did multiple full on reboots. they have basically wiped the slate clean each time and started from the ground up. I mean this is basically a new IP. With a name we remember. If another studio developed live 18 and 19 then called it something else we would be a lot more patient. Think about it.....

So what I'm saying is, since we know the team is much smaller. There's no reason in begging for all of these modes that we agree they SHOULD have in the game, then saying all of the modes they do have, should be super in depth. which we also agree on. When they still have basic game play issues to deal with. Fix the game play issues in the mode you're sinking the most money into and the mode people play the most which is THE ONE(my career for 2k). FIX the basic gameplay flaws. If you do that, then these other modes are just that modes. You wont have to worry nearly as much about gameplay issues and modes once you get the gameplay stuff down to a really nice place. remember this game is about playing video game basketball. Sure messing with trading cards in ultimate team is cute and all. but that aint playing actual basketball. Sure playing in franchise mode, changing your teams colors/jersey's etc is great, moving rosters around, adding accessories, the salary cap, substitutions, etc, etc. is all fun and need to be correct. but if the basic game play isnt on point.whats the point? Since we know they have a smaller team they need to focus on basic gameplay. get that right. then start tightening up the modes you do have and making sure the things you do have work properly. THEN...start pushing for more modes or more features within each mode.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby kingpnp on Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:46 am

Andrew wrote:Significant, I would imagine. NBA 2K20 just set records for the most copies sold in the history of the series, and "recurrent revenue" is up 140%.

exactly. lol. its not even up for discussion. Yao ming to early boykins. its literally that big of a gap.

And because of social media and just a different mentality due to the internets. everyone follows everyone else these days. So there is almost no incentive to try something new unless everyone leaves to try something new. very few people are willing to be the guinea pigs. but you have to in order for new things to spawn and get better.

2k is more entrenched in the minds of more people than NBA live was in its prime. Thats due to the internet, social media, and the fact that the video game industry has blown all the way up to the point where we have kids winning millions of dollars playing a video game. where we have people playing in professional basketball video game leagues sponsored by the real nba and real nba teams, where they are paying for salaries and the roofs over the heads of these players. its a Mt Everest climb for Nba live. The only way to climb that mountain is to have a team larger than 2ks. like much larger. and have a much larger budget for devs, etc. You would have to do that for 3 or 4 years straight. grind, grind, grind. Then just maybe you could climb that mountain with a game that is on par or better than 2k. Then after all that, you need to double the marketing team of 2k on and offline. then and only then could EA scale the team back to something some what normal. And dont think 2k would just be stupid and stand pat not trying new things once the fire is lit under their butts.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:10 am

The thing is, they have to put some effort into the modes, especially a few years into the latest reboot. The modes are where the appeal and replay value comes from. I'm not disputing the importance of gameplay, but here's the thing: I would've played NBA Live 19 a lot more this year, even with its flaws, if I'd been able to get hooked on any of the modes. The fact that LUT took a few steps backwards was very disappointing, as I really enjoyed it for what it was in NBA Live 18 (and again, despite issues with the gameplay). I couldn't get into it at all in NBA Live 19.

I'm not saying the gameplay shouldn't receive attention because it absolutely should, but the modes need to offer a little bit more to keep us hooked. There are only so many exhibition games I can play before that gets boring.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby kingpnp on Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:04 am

Andrew wrote:The thing is, they have to put some effort into the modes, especially a few years into the latest reboot. The modes are where the appeal and replay value comes from. I'm not disputing the importance of gameplay, but here's the thing: I would've played NBA Live 19 a lot more this year, even with its flaws, if I'd been able to get hooked on any of the modes. The fact that LUT took a few steps backwards was very disappointing, as I really enjoyed it for what it was in NBA Live 18 (and again, despite issues with the gameplay). I couldn't get into it at all in NBA Live 19.

I'm not saying the gameplay shouldn't receive attention because it absolutely should, but the modes need to offer a little bit more to keep us hooked. There are only so many exhibition games I can play before that gets boring.

I hear you in theory. Lets say in some dream world. They made by far the best basketball video game by far. Lets say it was suuuuper realistic on both ends (offense and defense), control, etc.

Do you realize if that were the case, you would rarely get board with the game even if all you could play was exhibition?

At the end of the day Ultimate Team, Franchise mode, its all the same the moment the ball is tipped. It's basketball. This is why with a super small team you can't focus on multiple things at once and get anything right. It just wont happen. So it means you have to make choices on what you should use most of your man power on. And since at the bottom line, this is a basketball game. Lets focus on the actual basket...ball. I promise you, if they fixed that part. every single mode they made thereafter would play 10X better.

what you're saying is you would prefer this:

basketball basics: 6/10
Other modes: 5/10

vs

Basketball basics:9/10
Other modes:2/10


^^and remember the later would only last until they got to the point where we could all agree the basics is at a 9/10. so the following season the "Other modes" would go way up because they could focus 70% of their attention on modes.

Do you realize how easy it is to create extra modes. well not easy but much easier than the actual gameplay.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:52 pm

I'm not necessarily suggesting those ratios, and I do understand the challenges of having a smaller team with fewer resources. With that being said, I do think that the modes are missing some incremental improvements that would at least have them on par with modes from the previous generation, or in the case of LUT, a couple of games ago. LUT would've been better if it remained basically untouched from 18 to 19 (save for getting rid of contracts, which was a great move), but it actually went backwards.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby [Q] on Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:43 pm

But you're implying that making basketball basics 9/10 is possible. They can't even decide how they want the game to be and for the last two years have teetered back and forth based off of fan complaints on Reddit. Hell they could even release a game with basketball basics at 9/10 but fans will complain about something and based on their history they'll break the game
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:11 pm

That's also definitely a problem. It's been an issue with 2K as well, but they have a higher margin for error.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby kingpnp on Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:26 am

[Q] wrote:But you're implying that making basketball basics 9/10 is possible. They can't even decide how they want the game to be and for the last two years have teetered back and forth based off of fan complaints on Reddit. Hell they could even release a game with basketball basics at 9/10 but fans will complain about something and based on their history they'll break the game

good point. but obviously i was some what exaggerating. But there is a thing to say 9/10 is just a more realistic basketball game. And that people will initially complain. until you allow them the time to play the game, cry, play again, cry, rage quit 100 times, cry some more, go play 2k instead. and a select few of us stay playing live and keep telling the masses, "mannnn, you guys need to check this game out. it is by far the most realistic sports game by far. It's as close to the real thing you can get on a console/pc. Eventually people will give it a try and a lot will start to come around after practice. to do this, you will have to stick to your guns and literally ignore the crybabies which is a large portion of your $$$$. thats the problem. You almost have to just ignore them for now and take the hits until you can prove to them this is a much better path. Til this day i truly believe in my heart of hearts if EA even with a smaller team would've stuck with the direction they were going in from nba Elite til now. Their game would be a 9/10 basketball basics. because they would've have figured out how to properly transition the animations while also giving people the ability to chain and stop animations mid animation(if its realistically feasible.)

But they got scared. and came back, then got scared again, came back, got scared again, came back.

You have to stick to your guns especially when its clear you're on to something. There is no reason to make 2k. it's already made. Yes you can clean up some of the broken things they have, but just make your own game and make it close to realistic as possible. Let that be your lane.

The trick is this. You can always make a game less Sim/less realistic with sliders and settings after the fact. But its very very difficult to make a non sim/much less realistic foundation into a more realistic game with sliders/settings/and extra animations. Thats 2ks problem right now. You're trying to fix something that is broken in its foundation "if you're trying to now make the game more realistic."
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:52 am

Agreed. Start with a game that's capable of being a realistic sim, and allow people to tinker as they like. You can also perhaps make street-based modes a little less sim as well, since it fits the tone. If nothing else, it's a good idea to have it stand out from regular NBA gameplay.

I don't think NBA Live should copy NBA 2K in every way, but as the latter is the brand leader, it wouldn't hurt to take some ideas from it. NBA Live should certainly be doing some of the same things conceptually, if not necessarily identically in execution. It needs to hit on the same staple features and strive for the same goal as far as providing a sim experience, different modes, etc.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby kingpnp on Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:14 am

Andrew wrote:Agreed. Start with a game that's capable of being a realistic sim, and allow people to tinker as they like. You can also perhaps make street-based modes a little less sim as well, since it fits the tone. If nothing else, it's a good idea to have it stand out from regular NBA gameplay.

I don't think NBA Live should copy NBA 2K in every way, but as the latter is the brand leader, it wouldn't hurt to take some ideas from it. NBA Live should certainly be doing some of the same things conceptually, if not necessarily identically in execution. It needs to hit on the same staple features and strive for the same goal as far as providing a sim experience, different modes, etc.

correct.
Should live do a franchise mode? probably.
But if you reallllly wanted to be different. and since you already have chosen to go the route of more online (the one) vs offline (franchise modes, etc) then go all the way with it.
Flip it.

Franchise Mode online with the One. Allow people that literally just want to be GM's, be GM's. they control the team, the contracts, the rosters. Friends and Randoms can join the player pool of free agents before draft day and during the season and during the off season post draft. these are all "the one" players. real life people with their own characters. joining your franchise. real 82 games or shorter your choice. real playoffs, real championships. real player awards. real injuries.

imagine some team GM is cheap on the training staff and you keep asking for load management. they keep trotting you out there because you're the start and you start breaking down and the year progresses. imagine how you would feel about that team. imagine trying to request a trade mid season cause you feel as if you're not being taken care of. sound familiar? thats real life Kawhi from the spurs to the raptors. That could be a real life narrative in that game mode.

This ^^could easily become an Esports thing. More drama would be involved since its more than just viewers watching other people control video game characters. its the drama of having a real GM. running the team properly or improperly. Its players not doing this or that and getting traded or dropped to the gleague for awhile.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:06 am

That's an interesting idea. I do think they still need to cater to the traditional crowd a little more, though. As I said, I know resources and the size of the team itself are limited, but there are some incremental additions (or indeed, re-additions) that are overdue. It's one of those situations where they need to cover the staples as well as innovate. Easier said than done, especially within one development cycle, but a whole generation has passed without a few necessities. In the long run, they need to flesh out those modes while also looking for new approaches, and hooks that set them apart from 2K. Once again, easier said than done, but it needs to be on the road map at least.
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby yxk001 on Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:46 am

they want wishlist this Friday
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Re: NBA Live 20 Delayed, Not Yet Cancelled (Polygon)

Postby Andrew on Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:18 am

They're holding an AMA, though it's been specifically stated it's not going to have anything to do with NBA Live 20.
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