2K18 vs 2K17 gameplay question

[bowdown]

Hey guys I just want to know in your opinion which of these two games has better single player gameplay. I do not care about online. I just want to know about single player offline gameplay vs CPU. Thanks.

[Andrew]

I found myself enjoying NBA 2K17 a lot more. It had its issues with Brick Wall defense, but NBA 2K18 kind of has the opposite problem, and the new motion system is a bit loose and sloppy. Ideally, NBA 2K19 should strike a balance between the two; NBA 2K18 has clearly tried to resolve some of the issues with NBA 2K17, but went too far in the other direction.

[Dee4Three]

I only play offline, and I prefer NBA 2K17 ten fold. While yes, brick wall defense is a little much, and the game is not without its issues (too many body steal/body blocks, questionable defense by the CPU at times) it has far less gameplay issues than 2K18.

Andrew touched on it nicely, NBA 2K18s motion system is sloppy, the players skate all around the court, controlling your player (stopping him from skating) is tough. Strange ball physics, the worst one on defense in 2K history, the worst help defense as well.

I can't even get through a half of basketball on 2K18 without quitting because I am having no fun. Dribbling moves don't matter because you can just run to the hoop in a straight path on anybody and score which throws away the importance of player attributes or tendencies, you can drive on anybody with anybody. The game overall also looks and feels dead to me, even with mods. The AI is really, really bad.... on HOF the game is a breeze.

I've played thousands of hours on NBA 2k17 to date, and I am still not sick of it. Playing against my brothers is what I enjoy the most, but even playing the CPU is a decent time.

Check out my youtube gameplay videos, a few are against the AI but most are against my brothers. My Channel is Dee4Three, the link is in my signature.

They need to find the right balance for 2K19, 2K18 to me was a huge failure. They created so my gameplay issues, at the same time ruining the atmosphere and adding stupid things like balloons falling into the crowd, big heads all over the league, in arena blimps, and camera shaking when the crowd stamps the bleachers.

Just typing this is making me angry... I need to stop. Ha.

[Andrew]

Shooting mechanics also took a step back. The changes were supposed to eliminate cheese (mostly online), but in my experience they've only caused more problems, offline and online. Taking away the shot meter on layups but still requiring release timing was a mistake, and too many easy layups miss in general. Layups shouldn't be 100% effective even if they aren't blocked, but the amount of really easy layups that are blown is an artificial attempt to make scoring inside more difficult.

The effect of Badges is also exaggerated too much this year, and that contributes to problems like too many missed layups. Rim Protectors influence shot success even if they're several feet away from the shooter, and have their back turned to the play. This is particularly frustrating as one of the gameplay blogs mentioned that players who had their back turned to the play wouldn't have the same telepathic awareness as in years past. They absolutely do, whether it's affecting shots without facing the player and being too far away from them, or snatching a bunch of psychic interceptions. A lot of turnovers feel very cheap, and part of the recurring problem of canned moments.

In terms of physics, clipping, and warping, I think these videos sum up the issue. They're from 2K Pro-Am, but the same stuff happens offline. There are still a lot of body steals too, except when stuff like that happens. It's one extreme or the other.

phpBB [video]

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While I'm sharing videos, here's a very canned moment that's all too common as well.

phpBB [video]

So yeah, NBA 2K18 has some frustrating issues. I've made sure to mention them in our Wishlist thread, which I submitted earlier this week.

[Dee4Three]

I'm going to make a video that highlights all the problems with this game, it will have commentary. I could have shown about 10 different gameplay issues just from the first quarter of my game last night.

Again, so many gamebreaking issues.

[Andrew]

The issues with clipping and physics do surprise me. That's not to say it's easy to achieve perfection or anything, but it feels like its actually regressed on this generation, despite having better tech to work with. It's surprising for a series that has shown a lot of improvement and innovation over the past decade.

When it comes to the motion system, it feels like it was implemented a year early, before all the kinks were worked out. It's been done to improve the responsiveness and eliminate that feeling of running in mud that's been in previous NBA 2K games, which is a good idea. As noted above though, it's gone too far in the other direction to where it's a bit loose, and players end up skating.

[bongo88]

if you have a console, best thing to do is rent both from redbox and see which you like best. Steam has a 2 hour refund window so that you could try both.
Some people prefer 2k17 for a variety of reasons. Other people prefer 2k18 for a variety of reasons.

My personal view, if you look at 2k history as dev cycles, i would break down 2k14 - 2k17 as a dev cycle where they extracted as much as they could from the game engine & code that they were building upon. 2k17 was the pinnacle of that dev cycle where they were able to implement what gameplay ideas they had.

2k18, to me, it seems like the start of a new dev cycle where they implemented a new motion system and new AI system. It is something they want to build upon for future years.

Here is an example of how the AI is programmed in a simple fastbreak. https://youtu.be/yG0RlezcrhA?t=262 ... the example is showing you how they are building on these ideas for future years releases.

anyways, you are just going to try it yourself. 2k17 is an example of an old framework. 2k18, in my opinion, is the first implementation of ideas that leads the dev cycle for the next few years.

[Andrew]

You could be right there. Unfortunately, I'd say there are some teething problems this year.

[bongo88]

You could be right there. Unfortunately, I'd say there are some teething problems this year.

Not familiar with the phrase "teething problems." just not used in my neck of the woods, except for teething children.

The issues with clipping and physics do surprise me. That's not to say it's easy to achieve perfection or anything, but it feels like its actually regressed on this generation, despite having better tech to work with. It's surprising for a series that has shown a lot of improvement and innovation over the past decade.

When it comes to the motion system, it feels like it was implemented a year early, before all the kinks were worked out. It's been done to improve the responsiveness and eliminate that feeling of running in mud that's been in previous NBA 2K games, which is a good idea. As noted above though, it's gone too far in the other direction to where it's a bit loose, and players end up skating.

I agree with this statement. Which, when flushed out, means that we are using an early developer build. "alpha" perhaps. maybe "beta". The point is, this is the start of a new dev cycle where they are trying new things to reach a new goal. Should 2k hire 8,000 developers with the cash that they have acquired? that would definitely speed up game development. But there are publishers and shareholders and lots of stuff.

We can tell they are heading in a new direction because they implemented a new Motion System. But 2k18 does not have a perfectly new Avoidance System. Or a perfectly good Off Ball Colision System. Or who know what other systems are running in the background

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG0Rlez ... .be&t=1741

Quote from Da_Czar Video:
"The [inaudible] he thinks, ugh, they think, that the next big jump for AI will be the ability for it to recognize the other players strengths and weaknesses and not get in each others way while running. Uh, yeah, actually, those are like two different things. Our AI is smart enough to recognize the others person's ability, but the thing is that, right, now, we just put in that new Motion System, right. And it is in motion right now--It doesn't know how to handle these different situations of Avoidance, right, and Avoidance System is a completely different system than the Motion System, but it needs to work with it. And, ugh, that's not simple stuff to code. Right. So, conceptually you are right, that is the next level. Our AI can handle it. It's the rest of the systems in the game, can they handle it? Can they give us the movement we need once the AI recognizes that oh, yo, this guys at this, this is what he is gonna do, like, we can deduce that information. But, can we feed that to the motion system in time for it to make another decision to feed that into the Off-ball Collision System or the Avoidance System, and then once it comes out of that, it hands it back to the AI...."

Simply put, we are just beta testers for the new dev cycle.

I wrote the quote out from the video. Just because not sure if folks watch the video.
If i ever make it through the whole video (life inturruptions) i should make a post about it. Anyways, 2k is starting a new dev cycle that the will be more fully fleshed out in a few years. It is part of the reason why i find a 2k basketball i like, and stick with it for a few years.

They implemented the motion system. but the avoidance system doesn't seem flushed out yet. He also mentions an off ball collision system. the video continue on (havent made it much further, myself) but the AI base framework sounds quite sound. And they are working on motion systems and who knows what else.

In the end, it's an unfinished product that they are continually working on. The took 2k17 as far as they could within the goals of that dev cycle. Now they are working other aspects of their products. The hardware of consoles , while consoles are very nice for gaming due to more funding and exposure, the console hardware (limited cpu, limited ram, limited graphics) are a limiting factor of the limits of a dev cycle. If consoles were all supercomputers, then all games would look like Star Citizen or a Modded Skyrim. Also the personell.... how much code can they accurately publish.

Anyways, the video is quite interesting for me. Sounds like the Motion System is adequate, but the Avoidance System is lacking. and whatever other systems they have running.

To excessively criticize failures in the games systems is, in effect, to not realize exactly what product you have. 2k18 is an alpha build or beta build of a long term goal. Exaclty how 2k14-15 (next gen, ps4) in my opinion were alpha builds of that development cycle.

my analysis of gameplay between 2k17 and 2k18 shows that they were developing AI responsivness (given the new console hardware that was available) and now they are working on motion systems. To say the have problems is true. But it is not a "step back" in any direciton, it is just a focus on other aspects of their game, and those implementations are just alpha/beta builds.

Whether a person finds any game enjoyable (basketball, football, rpg, moba, etc etc) is completely subjective. Best thing for this person to do is try a bunch of the 2k basketball games and find which one is most enjoyable to him/her.

[Dee4Three]

Bongo, that doesnt make any sense.

So because NBA Live decided to start a new development cycle (change gameplay direction) after Live 2010, the games since are not steps back, but years of gameplay testing/improvements with the an ultimate goal of a better product? No... NBA Lives gameplay was a major step back after 2010, the changes made and the focus were not on the right areas. That is clearly a step back, by stating that they are starting a new development cycle and are focused on other things so it can't be a step back, doesn't make any sense at all.

The skating is absolutely a step backwards, just because someone implements a new gameplay direction doesn't mean they are somehow forgiven in the early stages even though they released a FINISHED PRODUCT that garnered the company billions. The shooting with the new motion system also feels flimsy and off, the one of one defense is a giant step backwards and needs to be fixed in 2K19. The ball physics/shot physics around the rim also are a step backwards from 2K17.

The other problem with your statement is, it makes no mention of the other created problems in this new "dev cycle" which once again were step backwards. Like an overabundance of oversized heads in the league, that was a created problem and a step backwards. It's called the game was released with all these issues, and people paid the same amount or more this year than they did last year. 2K is asking for more and more money out of the people, while giving them a product that has an over the top amount of gameplay issues as well as graphical problems.

Gameplay enjoyment is subjective, but when the majority of a population coniders all of it or most of it crap, what happened to NBA live happens. So no, I don't agree with the notion of just find a game you enjoy. Consumer feedback is the ultimate feedback, I enjoy live 18 more than 2K18, I think it's a better game, but that won't stop me from giving feedback on how I feel about 2K18. They have gotten away with A LOT with 2K18, just based on who they are. They get away with it because 2K is such a huge name now. If they continue along this path, they could lose a great deal of supporters.

The point is: they don't get a free pass on criticism because they are trying something new. Consumers are spending millions of dollars in total on these games, I've pointed to the metacritic user score compared to the reviewer score. Clearly a large portion of the population thinks that they didn't get there money's worth with this game, and the majority of the people I see commenting about the game feels that 2K is greedy, and that rushed the release of this product while trying to get more money out of the consumer.

[bongo88]

Bongo, that doesnt make any sense.
The skating is absolutely a step backwards, just because someone implements a new gameplay direction doesn't mean they are somehow forgiven in the early stages even though they released a FINISHED PRODUCT that garnered the company billions. The shooting with the new motion system also feels flimsy and off, the one of one defense is a giant step backwards and needs to be fixed in 2K19. The ball physics/shot physics around the rim also are a step backwards from 2K17.

Did you watch the video from the dev? Please watch the video and write an essay about it.

Like an overabundance of oversized heads in the league, that was a created problem and a step backwards.

Was this covered in the Dev video? I do not know. I haven't had time to finish the video. What i do know from 2 decades of modding video games is that skeleton changes are required to make motion changes. I extrapolate nothing to the process of 2k basketball engine development, but perhaps you should assume that skeleton/mesh changes were indeed required for the new motion system and perhaps they had to hand adapt most player meshes.

they released a FINISHED PRODUCT that garnered the company billions. It's called the game was released with all these issues, and people paid the same amount or more this year than they did last year. 2K is asking for more and more money out of the people, while giving them a product that has an over the top amount of gameplay issues as well as graphical problems.

Consumers are spending millions of dollars in total on these games, I've pointed to the metacritic user score compared to the reviewer score. Clearly a large portion of the population thinks that they didn't get there money's worth with this game, and the majority of the people I see commenting about the game feels that 2K is greedy, and that rushed the release of this product while trying to get more money out of the consumer.

Perhaps gamers shouldn't pre-order. Perhaps they should try a game before purchasing. Perhaps they should be a knowledgable consumer base.

So because NBA Live decided to start a new development cycle (change gameplay direction) after Live 2010, the games since are not steps back, but years of gameplay testing/improvements with the an ultimate goal of a better product? No... NBA Lives gameplay was a major step back after 2010, the changes made and the focus were not on the right areas.

Gameplay enjoyment is subjective, but when the majority of a population coniders all of it or most of it crap, what happened to NBA live happens.

Has NBA Live recovered from their new development cycle which started with Live 2010? You say you enjoy Live 2018. What about live 2011 - 2017? what were wrong with those games. Sounds like they embarked on new development goals in 2010.... and they recovered in 8 years?

I never said 2k18 was the start of a good or bad dev cycle. What i said is that 2ksports has laid framework in 2k18 that will carry the game for the next few years. Why twist my words?

Again, Please watch Da_Czar Video on youtube about the changes that were made in 2k18 then write an essay on it i haven't had time to finish the video

besides, most of your complaints fall under the "new motion system" not interacting correctly with an under-developed "Avoidance system" or an under-developed "off ball collision system" or who knows what is running. If a game is not completely developed, then it is an alpha/beta build. Doesn't matter what marketing calls it. Call it for what it is. an alpha system that needs more time to be developed.

like i said, i haven't finished the video.

game feels that 2K is greedy, and that rushed the release of this product while trying to get more money out of the consumer.

I do agree with this I have brought this point up many times.... 2k is owned by take two publishing. please do some reading about take two publishing and the games that they are responsible
here's two articles to start:
https://www.pcgamesn.com/take-two-service-games-only
https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/8/16623 ... gta-online

anyways, was a nice chat. feel free to quote me when replying to me. Even better, watch the developer video and write an essay about it. it could be therapeutic.

[Dee4Three]

Live didn't recover yet, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't want 2k to continue down the wrong path. I enjoy Live MORE than 2K this year, but they still havn't recovered the gameplay, and I barely played Live 18. Live still isn't even close to taking enough Market Share to actually compete, they are still in major recovery.

Bongo, I don't care what it says in the dev blog. I'm talking about the hands on experience. It was boasted in the dev blogs before the games release about improved AI on offense and defense, it hasn't shown that at all. In fact, the opposite.

With all due respect (I think you are a great guy btw) your talking in circles defending them but without actually saying anything. Your comment about Lives 8 year development cycle shows that. My point makes sense, live started down the wrong path with a new dev cycle, and look what happened? They took STEPS BACKWARDS. That is the point Bongo.

They are not applauded for creating many new gameplay issues just because they are trying something new. Consumers deserve a more polished product in 2018, the gameplay and the art is simply all over the place.

They increased the demand for VC so they could take more money from the consumer, and at the same time implementing silly gameplay additions, and creating more gameplay issues and art issues. They don't get applauded for that result Bongo.

[bongo88]

Bongo, that doesnt make any sense.

So because NBA Live decided to start a new development cycle (change gameplay direction) after Live 2010, the games since are not steps back, but years of gameplay testing/improvements with the an ultimate goal of a better product? No... NBA Lives gameplay was a major step back after 2010, the changes made and the focus were not on the right areas. That is clearly a step back, by stating that they are starting a new development cycle and are focused on other things so it can't be a step back, doesn't make any sense at all.
Consumer feedback is the ultimate feedback, I enjoy live 18 more than 2K18,

Live didn't recover yet, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I don't want 2k to continue down the wrong path. I enjoy Live MORE than 2K this year, but they still havn't recovered the gameplay, and I barely played Live 18. Live still isn't even close to taking enough Market Share to actually compete, they are still in major recovery.

this is what you said about LIVE. if you wanted to say live development cycle never recovered.... then say live development cycle never recovered. Your first post is wordy and filled with anger. The second comment is clear and concise. I most definitly agree with you about NBA LIVE. they was awesome from about 2000 to 2009 or so. didn't play it much after the mid 2000s. Hopefully 2k has a good plan for the next few years and doesn't parallel LIVE money-grubby actions.

That is clearly a step back, by stating that they are starting a new development cycle and are focused on other things so it can't be a step back, doesn't make any sense at all.

Once again, back to your original comment. You are twisting my words. I never said a new development cycle can or can not be a step back. I said 2k18 is the start of a development cycle. Just like 2k14 nextgen, in my opinion, was the start of a development cycle to flush out the AI. The old console hardware was very limiting with its process power. It was a positive thing that 2k used the new consoles to process better gameplay and develop AI Framework.

Bongo, I don't care what it says in the dev blog.

Your loss. it's a video about programming and 2k18 game development. for instance, anytime the movement is adjusted they have to hand- implement all plays again. there is not auto adjust or auto fix button. also talked about the main three programming transition routes. the interaction between ingame programming, etc etc. again, haven't finished the video.

With all due respect (I think you are a great guy btw) your talking in circles defending them but without actually saying anything.

i'm hardly defending anything. stating that i think (and I have no access to 2k board room talk) that 2k18 is starting a new development cycle after 2k14-2k17 is hardly defending anybody. stating that the motion system is developed, but the Avoidance System is under-developed is a fact. straight from the dev. Stating that 2k18 is an alpha build for a long development cycle is my opinion (and most likely a fact). How is any of that defending anybody. In my eyes it's equivalant stating that i'm having chicken for dinner tonight and possibly enchiladas tomorrow.

Your comment about Lives 8 year development cycle shows that. My point makes sense, live started down the wrong path with a new dev cycle, and look what happened? They took STEPS BACKWARDS. That is the point Bongo.

Yes, a new development cycle can be steps backwards. or it can be steps forward. I have never understood LIVE because EA has lots of monies to produce a good nba game -- if they wanted to. But, just like nba live 2010, you cannot see if a development cycle is good or bad until the goals are reached and the product is delivered.

The difference between Witcher 1(released in 2008) and Witcher 3 is amazing (released in 2015). 8 years for CDProjekt to devote time, energy, implement ideas, and finally improve their products and give the consumers an amazing game. LIVE (backed by EA) has not improved much in with their game in the past 8 years. and we cant blame funding because EA is a very very large company.

now, 2k18 (my opinion) is starting a new development cycle. The first step was to implement a new motion system.... is that motion system perfectly polished? i don't know. will they improve it? i don't know. Does it interact properly with the Avoidance System? it most certainly does not. So what does that tell us? simply, we recieve the alpha build Whether these design changes are good or bad will only be known when the development cycle is finished. that is only my point. CDProjekt improved over the course of 8 years...... Live, it seems, did not. what will 2k do with this development cycle? we will wait to see.

But it is rather dramatic to claim that they are moving in the wrong direction when 1) this is an alpha build... the motion and avoidance system don't even interect well and 2) we have no idea what the cohesive system is going to be like when it is all finished. we have a slightly working motion system, and an excellent AI Framework that took 3 years to develop, in my opinion (2k14-2k17) combined with other aspects that are very very under-developed.

Consumers deserve a more polished product in 2018, the gameplay and the art is simply all over the place.

Consumers are just that ---- consumers. If people do not like the product, they will not consume. I hardly buy mcdonalds because i do not like their product. But they still sell lots of hamburgers to somebodies out there. they seem to be doing well. whether or not we deserve a more polished product will be determined by whether or not people consume the product. The future will tell if consumers can speak with their wallet, and not buy the next 2k game. Or if they continue to pre-order, day 1 sales, microtransactions, etc etc. From what i have read... 2k18 has done extremely well. Thus, we can assume that the consumer is happy. article: https://venturebeat.com/2017/11/07/nba- ... from-2016/

for the record.... 2k18 for ps4 metacritic has 585 rating. hardly a drop in the bucket compared to the millions of 2kplayers on ps4. 585 bad ratings out of 1million people is a rather small sample size. You bringing it up made me think it was a much larger number. For instance, No Man's Sky ( a horrible video game) has 81,000 mostly negative reviews on steam.

They increased the demand for VC so they could take more money from the consumer, and at the same time implementing silly gameplay additions, and creating more gameplay issues and art issues. They don't get applauded for that result Bongo.

once again, creating more gameplay issues... this is an alpha/beta build. whether it culminates into something wonderful is yet to be seen. I am not sure when i have applauded 2k for anything they have done. i have simply stated the facts.

With all due respect (I think you are a great guy btw)

the feeling is mutual. i always enjoy talking basketball with you. But listening to the youtube video, and realizing that they put in a motion system that does not interact well with their current system made me realize that they are setting the framework for future gameplay. Whether it is good or bad is yet to be seen. (on a side note, rumors are that the next madden will come to PC this summer. Hopefully it is true for once--modded Madden08 is fun, but i'd like something new.)
anyways, have a good evening

[Dee4Three]

To say the have problems is true. But it is not a "step back" in any direciton, it is just a focus on other aspects of their game, and those implementations are just alpha/beta builds.

You DID say that it was not a step back in any direction, that is you who said that. That isn't twisting your words Bongo, those are your exact words.

this is what you said about LIVE. if you wanted to say live development cycle never recovered.... then say live development cycle never recovered.

I was pretty clear in what i said. I was talking about development cycles (2k's) and mentioned Live as an example of a new development cycle that took a turn for the worst. Not wordy, not anger filled, pretty cut and dry.

for instance, anytime the movement is adjusted they have to hand- implement all plays again. there is not auto adjust or auto fix button.

Not once did I say these things were easy to fix. in fact, I have said in numerous other critiquing threads that I understand that a lot of work goes into any fix. This has nothing to do with the release of the game that looks unprepared and sloppy. I never said that they would be able to fix 2K18. I am hoping for improvement in 2K19.

It was also never debated that this wasn't a new development cycle, I said they are going down the wrong path. And, 2K18 feels like a very poor release

In regards to metacritic, yes it's a small sample. But it still shows a disconnect from the reviews and the consumers. Also, have you looked at the consumer reviews on Steam? its horrible.

Yes, a new development cycle can be steps backwards. or it can be steps forward.

I know, like I said above.... This was a step backwards.

But it is rather dramatic to claim that they are moving in the wrong direction when 1) this is an alpha build... the motion and avoidance system don't even interect well and 2) we have no idea what the cohesive system is going to be like when it is all finished. we have a slightly working motion system, and an excellent AI Framework that took 3 years to develop, in my opinion (2k14-2k17) combined with other aspects that are very very under-developed.

It's not dramatic at all, Bongo. You are veen stating that right now it's basically broken, how could that not concern me? The entirety of the motion system isn't working well, not just the interactions between players, but thats also horrible).

Have you played 2K14 and 2K15? They are fantastic gameplay wise. 2K15 feels much more polished than 2K18, by a mile. 2K14 for X1 and PS4 was mostly based off of last gens cycle of gameplay, and it was a blast. it was the perfect combination of gameplay and graphics.

Consumers are just that ---- consumers. If people do not like the product, they will not consume.

This comment is pointless in a gameplay/game critique section. It's also blatantly obvious. My point was: Look what happened to Live. My point about consumer feedback is vital in ensuring 2K stays at the top. All it takes is one down year, and another companies up year to make the tides turn. Consumers are everything, we are what keeps these games coming out.


We can agree to disagree here about the gameplay direction and how we view it, im cool with that. While supremely disappointed in 2K18 and the direction they went, I am looking forward to Live 19 AND what 2K19 can improve upon.

[Andrew]

The term "teething problems" is indeed an analogy based on children teething.

It's worth noting that NBA Live has not had an eight year development cycle. Our interviews with Sean O'Brien have gone into more detail about that, but there were lots of changes in direction, overhauling of the team a couple of times following the cancellation of NBA Elite 11, and starting over again, which has further contributed to its setbacks. But that's a discussion for elsewhere and another time.

[bongo88]

To say the have problems is true. But it is not a "step back" in any direciton, it is just a focus on other aspects of their game, and those implementations are just alpha/beta builds.

You DID say that it was not a step back in any direction, that is you who said that. That isn't twisting your words Bongo, those are your exact words.

Oh, i apologize, it was not fleshed out properly. What i meant is that nobody can tell if something new is a step back or a step forward until that idea is fully developed. 2k has fleshed out the motion system they want to use in the future. They now focusing on other systems within the game. to call the whole direction a bad direction is premature. If a game developer decides to add a feature or take away a feature, then how can a person immediately tell if it is a step backwards or a step forward? This direction 2k is taking will not be fully developed for a few years. then we can tell if it is a set back or a step forward.

It was also never debated that this wasn't a new development cycle, I said they are going down the wrong path. And, 2K18 feels like a very poor release

In regards to metacritic, yes it's a small sample.

Yes, a new development cycle can be steps backwards. or it can be steps forward.

I know, like I said above.... This was a step backwards.

Again, that is your opinion. which is fine. no problem with that. But for you to say that it is a step backwards makes you a prophet or very opinionated. To accuratly describe this as a step backwards would require technical knowledge of the games systems as well was knowledge of the future projects and goals. It is premature to call this a step backwards when we have no idea what the end goal is. An accurate desctiption is that the game is not finished. thus the alpha/beta description that i have been using. A game in alpha or beta is neither step back in development or step forward in development because all systems have not yet been developed.

In regards to metacritic, yes it's a small sample. But it still shows a disconnect from the reviews and the consumers. Also, have you looked at the consumer reviews on Steam? its horrible.

8,000 bad review on steam.... 500 bad review on metacritic... millions still enjoying the game. and many, many people still purchasing microtransactions. still too small a sample size to say that the consumer base is disgusted with this release. The only thing that shows is if 2k has a bad selling year. 2k18 has been a good selling year. if 2k19 is a bad selling year, then we can assume that the consumer base has spurned the game.

Consumers are just that ---- consumers. If people do not like the product, they will not consume.

This comment is pointless in a gameplay/game critique section. It's also blatantly obvious. My point was: Look what happened to Live. My point about consumer feedback is vital in ensuring 2K stays at the top. All it takes is one down year, and another companies up year to make the tides turn. Consumers are everything, we are what keeps these games coming out.


We can agree to disagree here about the gameplay direction and how we view it, im cool with that. While supremely disappointed in 2K18 and the direction they went, I am looking forward to Live 19 AND what 2K19 can improve upon.

It takes more than a year for consumers to impact sales of a buisness unless the vast majority leaves a product. 2k18 was not a down year for 2ksports or take two publisher. You do not speak for the millions of people playing 2k18. You do not speak for the many many people buying VC. There has not been mass outrage akin to battlefront 2 where a consumer base turned on the company. To extrapolate your small data to all of 2k18 console and pc users it the only issue that i have. Unless we have numbers and surveys from the company, until 2k19 and 2k20 lose many customers, we must assume the majority of consumers are happy with the direction of the game. to extrapolate statistics is to paint an ugly caricature of the userbase. just like other badly developed games, we must wait to see how the consumers vote with their wallets. due to our statistical samples sizes being so small.

Again, this is a new development cycle. there wouldn't be 2k18 if they did not do yearly releases. because the game is obviously not finished. it's an alpha/beta stage. For internal programming systems to not interact properly with each other shows an under-developed game. In the end, consumers can speak with their wallets. We will see how people react to 2k19. But, gaming has hit the masses and gone mainstream. Personally, i have no idea how anybody buys any microtransaction. but each person can spend their disposable money on whatever they want. I don't understand $5,000 for a rolex watch either.

The topic of this thread is a user wondering about 2k18/2k17 gameplay. i shall quote myself:

if you have a console, best thing to do is rent both from redbox and see which you like best. Steam has a 2 hour refund window so that you could try both.
Some people prefer 2k17 for a variety of reasons. Other people prefer 2k18 for a variety of reasons.

Whether a person finds any game enjoyable (basketball, football, rpg, moba, etc etc) is completely subjective. Best thing for this person to do is try a bunch of the 2k basketball games and find which one is most enjoyable to him/her.

Enjoyment from a game is completely subjective. My brother loves League of Legends gameplay. Me, i can't stand it. He doesn't like tf2. i love it. the only answer to these 2k17/2k18 gameplay questions is for a person to try the game. They have options to try both games. What they like is completely subjective to them. Whether 2k is headed in a bad direction or not is yet to be seen. Unless you have access to a Delorean and high grade plutonium, of course

i apologize for de-railing this thread. I have a tendancy to do that, lol. Anyways, i do wish LIVE would get their stuff together and put together a good game. It will be interesting to see where 2k goes in the next few years with their game development. of course, i only buy games every three or four years, so it'll be fun to watch.

anyways, if take two has their choice, microtransactions are gonna be rampart for the next few years. It reminded me of this reddit thread about the battlefield 2 outrage Source for Gif listed below. They made this amazing HighQualityGif that reminded me of 2k18 online and the VC direction it seems to be going.
enjoy and a pleasure chatting
https://i.imgur.com/5lKYfh6.gifv

[bongo88]

The term "teething problems" is indeed an analogy based on children teething.

It's worth noting that NBA Live has not had an eight year development cycle. Our interviews with Sean O'Brien have gone into more detail about that, but there were lots of changes in direction, overhauling of the team a couple of times following the cancellation of NBA Elite 11, and starting over again, which has further contributed to its setbacks. But that's a discussion for elsewhere and another time.

that's interesting about the Live development. and makes sense given their struggles.
I still don't understand the teething problems analogy context. I understand teething children, just not the analogy. oh well, if your'e bored perhaps you can explain it.

[Andrew]

This explanation is pretty straightforward, so I'll just borrow it:

Problems encountered during the initial part of a process. Likened to the discomfort experienced by babies when they are getting their first teeth (i.e. when they are "teething").

[bongo88]

This explanation is pretty straightforward, so I'll just borrow it:

Problems encountered during the initial part of a process. Likened to the discomfort experienced by babies when they are getting their first teeth (i.e. when they are "teething").

Oh, haha. That's a funny analogy. It works on the assumption that a baby teething is a horrible/bad experience. That's why i've never heard it in conversation and also why i had a personal disconnect from the analogy. Anyways, ima go on a tangent real quick. I grew up in utah from about ages 4 - 25 or so. Moved a bunch around the counrty since then. Anyways, growing up i did attend Mormon church. With most of the mothers in the 80s and 90s seem to have between 5-10 kids. (broad generalization, obviously, based off my experiences.) Anyways, anytime baby teething is brought up it is always described as "hit or miss." personally, my 3 kids, 1 child had pain/discomfort when teething. the other 2 kids had no discomfort at all. tooth just pops in one day. Anyways, it probably has something to do with genetics (most utah mormons originate from probably 300 - 500 families from england/scandanavia).
Anyways, all purely anecdotal. If i had run into the analogy in any vocal conversations i most definitely would've asked. because teething, to me, is simply, "hit or miss". anyways, sorry about the tangent. yes, i still think it an odd analogy.

[Dee4Three]

Again, that is your opinion. which is fine. no problem with that. But for you to say that it is a step backwards makes you a prophet or very opinionated. To accuratly describe this as a step backwards would require technical knowledge of the games systems as well was knowledge of the future projects and goals

This might be the most ridiculous statement yet, sorry for being blunt.

First off, this is the definition of Prophet

Definition of prophet



1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such as

a often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible

b capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will ·Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah



2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet


3 : one who foretells future events : predictor


4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group


5 Christian Science

a : a spiritual seer

b : disappearance of material sense before the conscious facts of spiritual Truth

Nowhere does that fit in here.


Number two, to say that I need to have the technical background in order to call 2K18 steps backwards is absurd. So if I went to a restaurant and had great service for a year, and went the following year and they changed the layout and the service was not on par from what I had before, I can't state that the service has regressed or taken a step back because I don't have a degree in hospitality?

I had to get my own medical records to diagnose myself with something because the hospital on three different occasions A) Didn't tell me that my body was creating anti-bodies that was trying to fight off something that was attacking my healthy skin B) I switched doctors three times, each doctor did the same blood tests, all didn't tell me about those blood test results. They said they all came back negative C) I had to go get my medical records myself, make an appointment with a 4th doctor, and I put those red flags that showed up on my records right in his face, and it took all of that in order for them to say "Something is definitely wrong" and review my results with a rheumatologist.

Now, I don't have a medical degree of any sort, Im just a regular guy who was able to diagnose myself. If I went by your example of not having the confidence in myself to form an educated opinion in a field that I am not a specialist in, I'd still be sitting here believing that everything came back negative (Like the specialists told me), instead of doing the research myself. My symptoms would also be getting even worse over time causing even more serious health issues.

I CAN state that it's a step back, and I can give all of my reasons again. Can they flesh it out and make 2K19 a very positive experience? Absolutely! but at the moment, 2K18 is a step backwards in gameplay because of all the issues that were created (And incorrect focus on silly things). I can say that 2K18 is a step backwards and hope they fix it for the next version.

Again, this is a new development cycle. there wouldn't be 2k18 if they did not do yearly releases. because the game is obviously not finished.

Exactly, so heres the truth. NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack).

I can call 2K out on implementing something as silly and unrealistic as balloons falling into the crowd, in arena blimps, and camera shaking when bleachers are stamped, when they should have been focusing more on making the game more realistic, more of a simulation, fixing the major issues with the motion system that they even admit to. I don't need to be a technician, or engineer to see that. That is obvious, somebody with a supposedly much more technical background/marketing background came up with that junk, Bongo. Ill say again, the best feedback is from people like me, the consumer. Nobody asked for those silly, unrealistic implementations, not one person. As a consumer it pisses me off that they took the time to implement those things instead of working on the gameplay.

So we have a fleshed out, clean 2K17, and a WIP 2K18 that was released. That's what created the gameplay of 2K18 being a step backwards from 2K17, Bongo. That's why it feels the way it does, that's why it feels off. Its why things feel like they are sloppy. So no, I don't need a degree or need to have a technical background to diagnose 2K18 as a step back. You are even stating in your own words (just a different way) that 2K18 was released unfinished, you are basically saying that the gameplay took a step back from 2K17 because they are experimenting with a new system (dev cycle).

[PeacemanNOT]

I think you guys look into this way too much.

[Andrew]

How so? If you want to describe why you like or dislike something, and in particular if you want to give feedback (as we have an opportunity to do), you've got to give specifics.

[bongo88]

I CAN state that it's a step back, and I can give all of my reasons again.....Nobody asked for those silly, unrealistic implementations, not one person.

Once again, i have no problem you stating your displeasure. That is your opinion. But to extrapolate you opinion onto the millions of the userbase is a bit much. How exactly do YOU know that NOBODY in the millions of the millions of the userbase asked for "silly, unrealistic implementations". You have labaled things as silly, unrealistic implementations. Thanks for telling millions what they think. simply put, it is hyperbolic.

NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack).

I am not sure why you are all worked up. 2k17 was a product (according to my views) that had completed their goals within their dev cycle. You enjoy to gloss over its flaws so i shall quote yourself:

I only play offline, and I prefer NBA 2K17 ten fold. While yes, brick wall defense is a little much, and the game is not without its issues (too many body steal/body blocks, questionable defense by the CPU at times) it has far less gameplay issues than 2K18.

First, you acknowledge the problems within 2k17.... then you state your opinion that 2k17 has less gameplay issues than 2k18. that is your opinion. i have no problem that being your opinion. But why do you extrapolate you opinion to millions of users?

NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack).

Now, if 2k17 had problems, then how was it a "completely finished product, a polished product"? If it was a finished, polished product, then why is 2k sports making changes to basic systems? Perhaps the mic should drop, they should walk off stage, and leave the crowd stunned with 2k17. But they didn't. They felt like could improve the game. Thus, they keep developing. to paraphrase myself: they reached the goals of the old dev cycle and are starting new goals in a new dev cycle.

It is better to say that 2k17 reached the dev cycle goals and they have new goals that they feel like they can reach. Not sure how you are getting worked up about that.

Exactly, so heres the truth. NBA 2K17 was a completely finished product, a polished product. 2K18 was released as a finished product, though not finished and all sort of out of whack (even you are stating that the devs are admitting this, that the motion system is out of whack)....
So we have a fleshed out, clean 2K17, and a WIP 2K18 that was released.

Glad you have realized that 2k18 is an alpha/beta build. Lots of lots of developers do that, release unfinished work to community. It is called marketing.
here is ubisoft marketing compared to released project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNter0oEYxc

to quote myself again:

Perhaps gamers shouldn't pre-order. Perhaps they should try a game before purchasing. Perhaps they should be a knowledgable consumer base.

Last point:

So we have a fleshed out, clean 2K17, and a WIP 2K18 that was released. That's what created the gameplay of 2K18 being a step backwards from 2K17, Bongo. you are basically saying that the gameplay took a step back from 2K17 because they are experimenting with a new system (dev cycle).

Again, with any alpha build, a person must wait until development cycle is finished to see if becomes a good thing or a bad thing. I am not basically saying that the gameplay took a step back from 2k17. I SAID THAT 2KSPORTS IS HEADING IN A DIFFERENT DIRECTION WITHIN THIS DEV CYCLE. Again, please stop twisting my words. for the record, i hate 2k17 gameplay (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvxbgSSw2EI) and enjoy the direction that 2k18 is bringing.

[Dee4Three]

It didn't take a "prophet" to realize that you far preferred 2K18 over 2K17

And, nobody is twisting your words Bongo.

I never said it wasn't an alpha/beta build, so acting like I finally admitted that is very misleading. And was a pointless statement.

But, it's pretty clear we have exhausted the conversation. So moving on.

[Dee4Three]

I think you guys look into this way too much.

We need more discussion centered around gameplay. I see people write long reviews and make long videos about movies, giving feedback about them. Some of the movies never get a sequel.

In the sports video game market, we get a release every year (generally), and we consume the product most every year. The amount of feedback given in regards to these games is extremely important. A lot of us here on NLSC spend a decent amount of time on the game, for me it's a connection with my two brothers and it's very important.

This site may be known for modding, but I don't want the most important aspect of any game to fall out, which is the gameplay and direction.