Let's talk about sliders...

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Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:56 am

Hi all,

Most every time a gameplay issue comes up, experienced players scramble frantically to find slider tweaks that will fix an issue. I personally mess with sliders a lot, I've been doing it for years and have my own sliders bases. Here is my problem with this..

About 99% of consumers and demo players will never lay a finger on the sliders. They will just select a difficulty level and play the game... that's it. Everybody I know outside of NLSC that plays basketball games won't touch the sliders. So while we will share ours in small groups on here, and potentially improve gameplay issues a little by making tweaks, it doesn't change the gameplay issue itself. That issue is still present to the vast majority of gamers

We go nuts on sliders, and it helps a select few... but I believe this also masks the real problem, or makes it seem not as big of an issue if the problem is curved slightly and we are happy with the improvement. Do you see how this could hurt the games development?

By the way, this isn't taking shots at anyone. I myself mess with the sliders a lot. I'm just trying to get a discussion going on sliders and how most people don't use them at all, and we need to keep that crowd in mind when we are discussing gameplay issues.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby m29a on Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:10 am

Maybe it's just the people I play with IRL, but considering they don't know about sliders or care to use them, the odd thing is, I don't think they even notice any game problems, or again, care. They just want to pick up a basketball and play, in the most casual way possible (which is totally cool, I get it). If I bring up the problems I notice, they claim it's just a video game and nothing is perfect, and that problems happen in real basketball.

I somewhat I agree with them. I think this year, out of the box default gameplay is the best I think I've experienced. It's surprisingly good, past 2K games I had to do quite a bit of tweaking for my personal taste of gameplay (which I've stated before, but I hated the brick-walling of past games). That's not to say there aren't any issues, but I guess I'm willing to overlook them considering they solved my #1 problem I've had for awhile w/ the series.

I'm just happy to be enjoying 2K18, which is more than I can say w/ 2k17 (once I noticed the flaws that game had, more severe than the flaws in this one imo).
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby CarolusXCI on Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:24 am

m29a wrote:Maybe it's just the people I play with IRL, but considering they don't know about sliders or care to use them, the odd thing is, I don't think they even notice any game problems, or again, care.


I agree with this.

I don't think sliders solve that much of a problem either. We just tweak it because sometimes we are left with no choice but do some sliders. I posted in the defense topic that changing the sliders resulted in a better CPU defense in my opinion, but sliders can do nothing to make driving from the wing through the baseline harder. It's still absurdly easy and should be addressed in a patch.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby bongo88 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:50 am

Dee4Three wrote:H it doesn't change the gameplay issue itself. That issue is still present to the vast majority of gamers

I'm sure you have a sample size of perhaps, say what, 20 people. It seems rather presumptuous to extrapolate your data to millions of gamers.
CarolusXCI wrote: It's still absurdly easy and should be addressed in a patch.


First..."should be"...really? 2k doesn't have to do anything. 2k doesn't have to include sliders. the fact that they do is a nice perk to their consumer base. They are releasing an enterainment product to enteraint people in their free time. It's the reason why i've stayed on 2k11 for years. it provided entertainment. some people play it regular. some people tweak sliders.

Second, As an experienced modder since the mid 90s, there should be nothing but gratitude that companies allow modding. I have been on many maodding projects on many different games that were halted by a cease and desist. this forum could disappear with one legal email. anytime i see modding going up, i am grateful to the publishers to allow it.

Now, my favorite basketball game is nba live 98 on the snes. no sliders. can turn off a few rules. 2d sprites. a few facy animations. just basketball.
i play it a few times ever month for entertainment, but i used to fire it up lots on my laptop druing college, and random people would often join. taking break from studies. There is a button to push people. litteraly through the air :)
phpBB [video]


I call that gamebreaking.
everyone i've played with universally agrees that this is "gamebreaking". did it make it less enjoyable? no every random person i played with (hundreds of people) we enjoyed the short 10 minute game, then back to study life. we just made a rule... no pushing. all those games were still great entertainment. and a good break from studies.

Dee4Three wrote:Hi all,
We go nuts on sliders, and it helps a select few... but I believe this also masks the real problem, or makes it seem not as big of an issue if the problem is curved slightly and we are happy with the improvement. Do you see how this could hurt the games development?

hyperbole or caricature... couldn't decide which word fit this passgae better. anyways, i'm done here posting here. good luck with the mods. lots of good mods here and in the china forums.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:59 am

I'm not saying any of this to be combative. Not sure how any of this is coming off that way.

I'm merely stating that we talk about sliders, but it seems hardly anybody else does. That most people just choose a difficulty and play the game. I am talking about a better way to address the issues as opposed to finding ways to curve them or give a temporary fix.

I've been playing basketball video games since the early 90s as well, and I've owned almost every basketball title you can think of. I am of course happy with all the modding capabilites, and the fact that we get a PC version. Just because we have new features and capabilities, doesn't make the actual issues with the game or gameplay non existent. They still exist, we can still be thankful and at the same time give constructive feedback to improve a game. There are issues with this year's game, we had issues with 17, 16, with Live 18 etc. Consumer feedback is the number one reason successful companies improve products. If we see issues that need to be address in the game, we need to speak up.

That's the reason for my posts about the defense, and about the delay in passing, and about sliders and the way we attack issues.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby CarolusXCI on Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:58 am

bongo88 wrote:First..."should be"...really? 2k doesn't have to do anything. 2k doesn't have to include sliders. the fact that they do is a nice perk to their consumer base. They are releasing an enterainment product to enteraint people in their free time. It's the reason why i've stayed on 2k11 for years. it provided entertainment. some people play it regular. some people tweak sliders.

Second, As an experienced modder since the mid 90s, there should be nothing but gratitude that companies allow modding. I have been on many maodding projects on many different games that were halted by a cease and desist. this forum could disappear with one legal email. anytime i see modding going up, i am grateful to the publishers to allow it.


First, this game is not for free. It costs money, a lot. "They are releasing an entertainment product" blah blah blah, yes, and that costs money. They are not producing a game because they are a philanthropic organization or whatever you wanted to say. 2K is making millions of dollars out of their "entertainment product". The least they should do (yeah, "should", really) is listen to their consumers, and I'm glad they do so.

Second, 2K has addressed a LOT of gameplay issues in past titles. Sometimes it takes a few changes to yield a huge positive (or negative) impact on the gameplay. You're talking as if they had to invest big money to make "Improvements to the CPU’s double team logic and general defensive AI decision making" or whatever. If that was the case, they wouldn't be releasing 10 patches each year.

Third, for a game that brags having "unparalleled authenticity" (Steam info), being able to exploit baseline drives all the time should not be happening. Brick walls are unrealistic and I'm glad they finally got rid of that. I love hip riding animations (since NBA Live 07 for PC), as long as good defenders are able to send the offensive player to spots where those can't score as efficiently, as NBA defenses frequently do. And that isn't the case on 2k18. Again, they just need to adjust stuff. Defenders should not be brick walling full speed players of course, but also, Gordon Hayward should NOT be able to have 80% FG percentage against Lebron James by only calling an ISO at the wing and driving through the baseline. This is not "unparalleled authenticity" by no means.

Fourth, what the heck this has to do with modding? Of course we are very grateful 2K (and EA back in the day) allow us to mod their game. So because of this, we cannot give our opinion on anything else? Of course we can. "You are talking about their graphics, you know what, be glad you are not blind, at least you can see the game".

Fifth, don't be so arrogant. You don't need to talk to someone you don't even know as if he/she was really stupid.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:03 am

I mean... anybody around here knows I'm not an idiot when it comes to gameplay or basketball titles in general... I've stated recently that I am not a rookie. I've been complimented on how I play the game and what I can do.

That being said, I agree with everything in Carolus post above. As I stated prior, just because we get a product (buy one), doesn't mean that feedback isn't vital when it comes to the good and bad aspects of it.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby rickberge on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:00 am

I think sliders are good. The only issue I have is that the Devs don't give examples of how the sliders and roster tendencies correlate together. So things are easy to figure out but others like "the drive/contact tendencies" is not so black in white. We have people that have gave educated guesses but I wish the Devs would give us examples how some of these sliders will affect gameplay.

We all have a certain preference on how we want the game to play. Sliders can help with adjusting the gaming experience to your likening. For example, out of the box, I felt that shooting percentages were too low, not a lot of turnoveres, too many off rebounds, and it was too easy to drive to the basket. So I increased all shooting attributes by 10 (except 3) decreased passing by 10, increased driving contact tendency by 25, increased help defense strength by 10, decreased off rebound by 15 and jacked up all foul sliders to 100... Im only listing this as an example of how sliders can help with your own personal gaming experience. Now the game plays more to my likening. Not perfect but better.

I also edited the roster tendencies and got rid of all badges except HOF and gold but that's a whole nother topic.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby bongo88 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:47 am

typed this up as a pm, but screw it, it's going on the forum.
You brought up 5 points... i will address each of them. then i'm done with these forums. lots of other things to mod...

1. 2k has absolutely no obligation to support their product. lots of movies and video games are made for entertainment and lots of video games never recieve patches. 2k could drop a yearly game and give no patches. food and shelter and clothes cost money. so does entertainment. if you watch a movie, do you expect a movie patch for any plot loopholes. if i watch an nfl game, do i expect a patch because of a bad play? if i go gamble in vegas for entertainment, do i expect a patch if i lose all my money?

2. just because 2k has supported patches in the past, doesn't obligate them to support them in the future or at any time at all. development artificial intelligence is a ridiculaously complicated process. you should read up about it. changing 1 value of code sometimes doesn't fix a thing. the movement system is proof of that.

3. again, you are simplifying coding. In order to take away animation ridden brick walls, they had to code a whole new movement system. How is that a simple fix? also, they are making an entertainment video game, not a super realistic ai. also, "unparralleled authenticity" is just marketing... they were saying the same things in the 90s :)

4. Modding. 2k is owned by take two publishing. they are known to send out cease and desist letters. how is that relevant.... it's a reminder that 2k (the develeop) and take two (the publisher) can do whatever they want with their product... beacuse it is theirs. even if their gameplay is broken and fixed

5. Using proper english is arrogant? i see nothing arrogant in the quotes i quoted or the words i typed. I quoted hpyerbolic sentances and issued a response. Dee4three said that a 'vast majority"... how does he know what the majority of millions feels about the gameplay. You said that is "should be fixed" 2k is gracious to fix problems yearly, but they are not required to. lots of games are released and never patched or modded.

remember, 2k owes you nothing. they produced a product. They give you sliders and let you mod. They could take it all away.

anyways, i have no hard feelings, mostly mildy amused by your respone.
have a good day. i won't be back.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Dee4Three on Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:30 am

Wait wait wait...

Just because they are not obligated means we don't have a reason to supply that feedback and state that an issue "should be fixed? That makes no sense. They produce a product, and make it an obligation to support it. I do believe gameplay issues should be fixed, and I'm standing by that. I'm not changing my stance or wording on that.

Coding? Who brought that up? Nobody said it was easy to fix issues, that has nothing to do with this.

I have no idea where you are going with this. This topic was about how we present feedback and not just going to the sliders right away, about trying to get 2k to fix the core issue. Hence the term "legacy issues" which SHOULD have been fixed to improve the gameplay years ago.

And I do believe that the vast majority of people do not use sliders. In fact, i guarantee if a study was done on that exact question, that the vast majority would say they only choose the level they play on and just play.

And we buy the product and keep them in business, we can't make a strong stance on gameplay issues because they can take it all away? Do you know how crazy that sounds?. You are acting like we don't have a say in anything, we absolutely do, with no consumers they don't have a business.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby CarolusXCI on Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:10 am

LOL, what a bunch of nonsense. I'm glad you won't be back.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Andrew on Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:13 pm

I'd say that sliders have always appealed to the hardcore basketball gamers (and other sports gamers as well). When they were introduced to NBA Live back in NBA Live 2004, it started an annual trend of discussing the best slider tweaks. That was obviously going on with NBA 2K too, and when we started covering the series on the NLSC, those conversations started popping up here as well.

As I said in the topic in the NBA Live 18 section, one possible benefit of devising a set of sliders that people enjoy is that it's useful feedback for the developers in terms of tuning the current release, as well as future games. For example, if the gameplay experience that's attained by dropping the game speed to 40 is popular, that tuning setting might become the new 50 (i.e. the default setting) in the next game, or in some cases, the next patch.

There's an expectation that the gameplay will be satisfactory (or indeed, better) without slider tweaks, and that's not necessarily unfair. Of course, it's impossible to please everyone, and needless to say, that's why sliders are important. I think it's something that needs to be pushed or promoted more, because of their value in enhancing our experience.

The other issue with sliders these days is that they're not applicable to all modes. MyCAREER and its connected experiences are the most popular modes right now, but they don't allow you to adjust the sliders like you can in Play Now or MyLEAGUE. Same goes for MyTEAM, which is also one of the most popular modes in NBA 2K. Since sliders aren't available in those modes, they aren't a viable solution to gameplay gripes and that no doubt contributes to them being overlooked, because the only solution there is for 2K to tweak the gameplay themselves. With that being said, feedback on the optimal gameplay settings based on slider tweaks could still be useful feedback for those modes.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby StyxTx on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:54 am

bongo88 wrote:
Dee4Three wrote:H it doesn't change the gameplay issue itself. That issue is still present to the vast majority of gamers

I'm sure you have a sample size of perhaps, say what, 20 people. It seems rather presumptuous to extrapolate your data to millions of gamers.
CarolusXCI wrote: It's still absurdly easy and should be addressed in a patch.


First..."should be"...really? 2k doesn't have to do anything. 2k doesn't have to include sliders. the fact that they do is a nice perk to their consumer base. They are releasing an enterainment product to enteraint people in their free time. It's the reason why i've stayed on 2k11 for years. it provided entertainment. some people play it regular. some people tweak sliders.

Second, As an experienced modder since the mid 90s, there should be nothing but gratitude that companies allow modding. I have been on many maodding projects on many different games that were halted by a cease and desist. this forum could disappear with one legal email. anytime i see modding going up, i am grateful to the publishers to allow it.

Now, my favorite basketball game is nba live 98 on the snes. no sliders. can turn off a few rules. 2d sprites. a few facy animations. just basketball.
i play it a few times ever month for entertainment, but i used to fire it up lots on my laptop druing college, and random people would often join. taking break from studies. There is a button to push people. litteraly through the air :)
phpBB [video]


I call that gamebreaking.
everyone i've played with universally agrees that this is "gamebreaking". did it make it less enjoyable? no every random person i played with (hundreds of people) we enjoyed the short 10 minute game, then back to study life. we just made a rule... no pushing. all those games were still great entertainment. and a good break from studies.

Dee4Three wrote:Hi all,
We go nuts on sliders, and it helps a select few... but I believe this also masks the real problem, or makes it seem not as big of an issue if the problem is curved slightly and we are happy with the improvement. Do you see how this could hurt the games development?

hyperbole or caricature... couldn't decide which word fit this passgae better. anyways, i'm done here posting here. good luck with the mods. lots of good mods here and in the china forums.


Saying a company doesn't HAVE to do anything to improve their product is nonsense. Technically, that may be true BUT....if they expect to stay in business, they had better react to user ideas.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Andrew on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:56 am

Yeah, post-release support of some kind is pretty much an obligation, especially when there are in-game purchases and online account data. If nothing else, it's a good business practice.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby bongo88 on Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:39 pm

I had some free time this weekend and wondered what to do that was relaxing. i started working on my hex comparison project of the 2k17 scoreboards. anyways, i logged in to post my findings, then remembered my previous posting... bah, i sound like an pompous, arrogant, a**hole. The posts weren't even worth reading, nor worth writing. no idea what i was thinking other than pure idiocy.

i apologize to dee4three and CarolusXCI and andrew and the modding community here. sent this via pm as well. Hope y'all forgive me and, more importantly, promplty ignore me :)

anyways, ima go post my hex findings and try not to be an online idiot.

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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Dee4Three on Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:23 am

No worries Bongo, we all get passionate sometimes. I've always enjoyed discussing basketball with you.

No need to apologize. But thanks for reaching out.
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Re: Let's talk about sliders...

Postby Andrew on Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:14 am

Water under the bridge, as they say. (Y)
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