Terrorist Attack on London

Indy; I think that was a quote from Jackal. But yea, I agree with you with what you say.

Riot; again, it wasn't like that. Ask people that lived there before you take the word of the media. Sure he was a bad dictator, but they did have very good medical care, decent water and electricity supply. What about transportation? You can't claim that the living conditions was horrible, they were all right. Much better than they are now as a matter of fact. But sure, perhaps in 10-15 years it'll be good.
I meen c'mon, how bad do you think it was, seriously? Ask people that lived there, read articles and writings from non-biased people that lived there and so on.


Edit: 37 deaths so far. Rest In Peace.

Do YOU know anyone who has lived there before? Most likely not.

Riot, just because the United States came in doesn't mean that everything is going to be fine and dandy.

Nor do I think it will be. America has a lot to do and just because we are there it won't be "fine and dandy". It will take sweat, blood, and tears to get it done from both sides. But I'm confident we can do it.

There is no doubt that Saddam was a terrible dictator. He was totally and completely awful. But, if America is so concerned about Iraqi people then why not African people? Why single out Iraq as the one nation to "help". Look at how horrible the situation in Rwanda was, America did NOTHING about it!! Look at how bad the situation in Sudan is right now, millions!

You do realize America has troops stationed ALL OVER the world, right? We have troops in Africa helping fight the tribal wars. We have troops in South America helping fight the drug wars going on down there. Hell, we have troops right on the border of North Korea. We have troops in 90% of the countries in the world. Iraq gets the most attention but there are troops everywhere.

To say that America is going to come in and fix everything in Iraq is just plain ignorant.

Why is it so ignorant? I don't think we can wave our magic wand around and everything will be fine. It's an extremely fragile situation and America is actually trying to help people and a country. No matter what America does, it gets crictized for. If we try to help a country we get crictized for not helping everyone, and when we don't help we get crictized for sitting on our ass watching. I'm glad we have finally given up on trying to please everyone, because it just isn't going to happen. Atleast Bush is trying to do the right thing.

[qupte] Yes, it is good that Sadaam is gone, but there are still people being killed every day there by American soldiers.[/quote]

You make it sound as if American soldiers are going in there with reckless abandon. It's one hell of a war to fight, especially when the enemies are dressed just like civilians. The soldiers are doing the best they can but when they are low on sleep and have their lives on the line I wouldn't fault them for being a little trigger happy. Plus, when there is a baby on the side of the road or a suspicious package on the side of the road the US Troops have been told to either drive on past it or tell an Iraqi to go pick it up because it might have a bomb on it.

On top of that, we have to leave eventually and too many people there are opposed to Western style of government for it to flourish there.

You don't know that for sure. A lot of people in the middle-east want a democracy. Once the government gets on it's feet and starts rolling I think the number of people who oppose it would drop. It's all speculation, but atleast we are trying.

The 3 religious groups there will butt heads once we leave, and the new government will be overthrown. Its unfortunate, because I would love to see a democracy develop in the Middle East, but It isn't going to happen.

So you think we should jut give up? A democracy can't happen in Iraq or anywhere in the Middle-East so let's not even try? All those kids and people who want to live in a free nation free from terrorism are just tossed to the side? As cliche as it is, I will not stand by that. Everyone should have the right to vote for their own leader and government. Some people call America bullies but I think that's crazy, the terrorists are the ones who the bullies. And if we just sit here and let them control what government is in the Middle-east then we aren't doing our job.[/quote]

Atleast Bush is trying to do the right thing.

Bullshit. Bush doesn't give a fuck about those people.

Let me tell you what I think the real reason the United States invaded Iraq:

China.

The US sees that China is on the brink of becoming the worlds biggest power, and we want to try and spread US influence as much as possible. We want to make a final push at staying the world power. That's why we invaded Iraq, we had a reason (9/11) we had a bad guy (Saddam) and people would stupidly look at it as the US trying to save the Middle East. Bush was wrong. People came up with dumb theories like that it was for oil, or that he was trying to finish his dad's job, but the conspiricy lays elsewhere.

The Bush administration invaded Iraq to try and have more of a voice in the world then China does. That's why we're there, not to liberate people, not to get rid of saddam, not to get oil, not to finish bush's dad's job, but to try and scare china off.

Because this is the real motive for the war, we won't make decisions based off of the well-being of the Iraqi people, we will make decisions based on whatever will make the US seem stronger.

Because of that, the people in Iraq are being exploited.

lmfao that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. China is far, far away from being a dominate world power and you know it. We invaded Iraq because of China? What the fuck does that have anything to do with it? We aren't trying to take control of Iraq we are just trying to liberate it and then leave.

God damn, some of these Anti-Bush and Anti-American debates are getting funnier and funnier by the minute.

If someone came and "liberated" me by bombing my house and taking my water I would kick their asses ... anyways, I don't give a shit. Should erect a giant glass bubble around the middle east and let them sort it out for themselves. That whole area has become a burden on society.

:lol: lmfao that's the funniest thing I've ever heard. China is far, far away from being a dominate world power and you know it. We invaded Iraq because of China? What the fuck does that have anything to do with it? We aren't trying to take control of Iraq we are just trying to liberate it and then leave.

God damn, some of these Anti-Bush and Anti-American debates are getting funnier and funnier by the minute.

Sounds like you're trying to convince yourself, especially by saying anti-american.

To say China is far away from being a dominate world power is pretty ridiculous, and i think YOU know it.

Do YOU know anyone who has lived there before? Most likely not.

I know 4 closely, two of which went in the same class as me. Also a bunch more over the internet. We've talked about it plenty of times, and it is like I've told you.
I still don't see why you don't just go out and ask a few people about it, both that are politically interested and not. You'll be surprised how much better you get a story when you don't get it through your filtered media. You say it's not as bad as Vietnam, how can you say that? Have you seen anything on the tv remotely close to what was shown during the Vietnam. I'm 100% sure that if the media covered Iraq as well as they covered Vietnam, USA would have withdrawn within a few months. Not to mention the level of approval rating the government would have had by now.

Edit: This was the first time Bush was mentioned, and that was by you. Also, we haven't talked about any anti-american, where did you get that from? More like anti-iraq-war if anything...
Also, China is definitely becoming the leading nation on earth, and their doing it at an incredible speed. Just look it up.

It's getting a bit tireding as none of the 'sides' is budging it seems like. It's still rather entertaining to hear what 'the other' side think of things, even though it might piss me off

Great post Andreas, great, great post.

Riot, you don't know a shit about war, so please STFU!

Riot, you don't know a shit about war, so please STFU!

Thank you for contributing to the debate.

You know people who live in Iraq, I know soldiers who are fighting in Iraq. Both are reliable sources.

I found this letter from a soldier in Iraq on the internet. It has been proven authentic.

This is really quite a different story from those you read or hear about
in the
news these days. Listen to what is being said by an Army Major who is in
Iraq and seems to have a pretty good handle on the situation.

OPEN LETTER TO FIRST LUTHERAN CHURCH OF RICHMOND BEACH
It has been a while since I have written to my friends at First Lutheran
Church about what's really going on here in Iraq. The news you watch on
TV is exaggerated, sensationalized and selective. Good news doesn't
sell.

The stuff you don't hear about? Let's start with Electrical Power
production
in Iraq. The day after the war was declared over, there was nearly 0
power
being generated in Iraq. 45 days later, in a partnership between the
Army,
the Iraqi people and some private companies, there are now 3200 mega
watts (Mw) of power being produced daily, 1/3 of the total national
potential
of 8000 Mw. Downed power lines (big stuff, 400 Kilovolt (Kv) and 132 Kv)
are being repaired and are about 70% complete.

Then there is water purification. In central Iraq between Baghdad and
Mosul, home of the 4th Infantry Division, Water treatment was spotty at
best.
The facilities existed, but the controls were never implemented. Simple
chemicals like Chlorine for purification and Alum (Aluminum Sulfate) for
sediment settling (The Tigris River is about as clear as the Mississippi
River)
were in short supply or not used at all and when chlorine was used, it
was
metered by the scientific method of guessing. So some people got pool
water and some people got water with lots of little things moving in it.
We are slowly but surely solving that. Contracts for repairs to
facilities that
are only 50% or less operational are being let, chemicals are being
delivered, although we don't have the metering problem solved yet (It's
only
been 45 days).

How about oil and fuel? Well the war was all about oil wasn't it? You
bet it
was. It was all about oil for the Iraqi people because they have no
other
income, they produce nothing else. Oil is 95% of the Iraqi GNP. For this
nation to survive, it MUST sell oil. The Refinery at Bayji is at
75% of capacity producing gasoline. The crude pipeline between Kirkuk
(Oil Central) and Bayji will be repaired by tomorrow (2 June). LPG, what
all
Iraqi's use to cook and heat with, is at 103% of normal production and
WE,
the US ARMY, at least 4th ID, are insuring it is being distributed
FAIRLY to
ALL Iraqi's.

You have to remember that 3 months ago, ALL these things were used as
weapons against the population to keep them in line. If your town
misbehaved, gasoline shipments stopped, LPG pipelines and trucks
stopped, Water was turned off, power was turned off.

Now, until exports start, every drop of gasoline produced goes to the
Iraqi
people, crude oil is being stored, the country is at 75% capacity now,
they
need to export or stop pumping soon, thank the UN for the delay. ALL LPG
goes to the Iraqi people EVERYWHERE. Water is being purified as best
they can, but at least it's running all the time to everyone.

Are we still getting shot at? Yep Are American Soldiers still dying?
Yep,
about 1 a day from the 4th ID, most in accidents, but dead is dead.

If we are doing all this for the Iraqi's, why are they shooting at us?

The general population isn't. There are still bad guys, who won't let go
of
the old regime. They are Ba'ath party members (Read Nazi Party, but not
as nice) who know nothing but the regime. They were thugs for the regime
that caused many to disappear in the night and they have no other
skills. At
least the Nazis had jobs they could go back to after the war as
plumbers,
managers, engineers, etc...these people have no skills but terror. They
are
simply applying their skills....and we are applying ours.
There is no Christian way to say they must be eliminated and we are
doing
so with all the efficiency we can muster. Our troops are shot at
literally
everyday by small arms and RPGs. We respond and 100% of the time, the
Ba'ath party guys come out with the short end of the stick. The most
amazing thing to me is that they don't realize that if they stopped
shooting
at us, we would focus on fixing things and leave. The more they shoot at
us, the longer we will stay.

Lastly, Realize that 90% the damage you see on TV was caused by
IRAQI's, NOT the war. Sure we took out a few bridges from military
necessity, we took out a few power and phone lines to disrupt
communications, sure we drilled a few palaces and government
headquarters buildings with 2000lb laser guided bombs (I work 100 yards
from where two hit the Tikrit Palace), he had plenty to spare. But, ANY
damage you see to schools, hospitals, power generation facilities,
refineries, pipelines, was ALL caused either by the Iraqi Army in its
death
throws or the Iraqi civilians looting the places. Could the army have
prevented it? Nope. We can and do now, but 45 days ago the average
soldier was lucky to know what town he was in much less be informed
enough to know who owned what or have the power to stop a
1,000 people from looting a building by himself.

The United States and Britian are doing a very noble thing here. We
stuck
our necks out on the world chopping block to free a people. I've already
talked the weapons of mass destruction thing to death, bottom line, who
cares, this country was one big conventional weapons ammo dump
anyway.
We have probably destroyed more weapons and ammo in the last 30 days
than the US Army has ever fired in the last 30 years (Remember, this is
a
country the size of Texas), so drop the WMD argument as the reason we
came here, if we find it GREAT, if we don't, SO WHAT? I'm living in a
"guest palace" on a
500 acre palace compound with 20 palaces with like facilities built in
half a
dozen towns all over Iraq that were built for one man. Drive down the
street
and out into the countryside 5 miles away (I have) and see a family of
10 living in a mud hut herding two dozen sheep, Then tell me why you
think
we are here.

Respectfully, ERIC RYDBOM MAJ, ENGINEER Deputy Division Engineer
4th Infantry Division

Do YOU know anyone who has lived there before? Most likely not.

I know 4 closely, two of which went in the same class as me. Also a bunch more over the internet. We've talked about it plenty of times, and it is like I've told you.
I still don't see why you don't just go out and ask a few people about it, both that are politically interested and not. You'll be surprised how much better you get a story when you don't get it through your filtered media. You say it's not as bad as Vietnam, how can you say that? Have you seen anything on the tv remotely close to what was shown during the Vietnam. I'm 100% sure that if the media covered Iraq as well as they covered Vietnam, USA would have withdrawn within a few months. Not to mention the level of approval rating the government would have had by now.

Edit: This was the first time Bush was mentioned, and that was by you. Also, we haven't talked about any anti-american, where did you get that from? More like anti-iraq-war if anything...
Also, China is definitely becoming the leading nation on earth, and their doing it at an incredible speed. Just look it up.

It's getting a bit tireding as none of the 'sides' is budging it seems like. It's still rather entertaining to hear what 'the other' side think of things, even though it might piss me off

I don't see how Iraq's insurgency can win. It lacks the support of at least 80 percent of the country (Shiites and Kurds), and by all accounts lacks the support of the majority of the Sunni population as well. It has no positive agenda, no charismatic leader, virtually no territory of its own, and no great power suppliers. That's why parallels to Vietnam and Algeria don't make sense.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... vets_x.htm

Vetnam veterans telling how this war is NOT like the Vetnam war.

Riot, you don't know a shit about war, so please STFU!

Thank you for contributing to the debate.

Ok I will contribute now. Please, after this, do not post in this thread anymore. This is my story through my 18 years. Happy childhood? First at '91., Croation assholes started a war which lasted for 4
years, and ended me becoming a refuge. So that's how I came to Serbia. Then '99. NATO (read
Clinton) bombed Serbia and that "war" lasted for a two-two and a half months where 80% of victims were
civilians. That's why I don't like when SOME American ass pretending to be a peacemaker
and talking either about peace or war. Especialy "Captain America".That's jut pissing my nervs.

Last edited by iG® on Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well, guess what? I don't care about your little story. I'm not a Clinton fan so I can feel for your pain.

And I'm not Captain America anymore.

Maybe you should listen to someone who has went through 2 real wars instead of ignoring him.

I don't care about your little story.

Guess what, I don't care about that Iraq shit either you were talking about. War is not the thing you should joke around with. Just stop.

I don't care about your little story.

Guess what, I don't care about that Iraq shit either you were talking about. War is not the thing you should joke around with. Just stop.

Do you see me joking around with war? I have a close friend who is in Iraq right now. You don't think it makes me and his family nervous? You don't think maybe I actually care about the troops and civilians in Iraq? I support the war because I care about them, not because I'm some little punk who thinks wars are cool. I honestly think good will come out of this war and so do others, and if you don't think so than so be it. I actually think they're fighting for a good reason and they believe they are fighting for a damn good reason too.

A democracy can't happen in Iraq or anywhere in the Middle-East so let's not even try?

Do you know what giving a try gave us? Everytime. Gave us thousands of innocent victims. It's easy you to say "I have a close friend who is in Iraq right now.". Bust do you know just couple of things that he goes through while someone "trying do something, God knows what?". I think you don't.

I understand what you are saying, but you must understand that if we didn't step in then more innocent lives would die every year than if we stepped in now. Future generations will be saved IF the mission is successful. We don't know that will be the case or not, but I hope it is and I have faith that it will be.

You're probably right there, but that's not for sure a plea to humilate and harass those prisoners and kill unarmed people in the church etc. And the reason for attacking Iraq wasn't the right one either...

Harassing those prisoners was 100% wrong. I agree with you on that front, but I don't think there is a right or wrong reason to invade a country. There are a lot of reasons leading up to the invasion, it's unclear what Bush and the rest of the US's main motive was but we can sit here and think of all the good things that will come out of this war. Whether Bush and the US thought about it or not.

Then they should say:"We are going to Iraq to make that country free.". Problem is- that wasn't the right reason.

I'm only saying we should mourn the deaths of Iraqis and British.

Who says we don't? Sure, we don't make a thread for every person that dies, but whenever I hear it on the news, I do go, damn, what a waste of lives. You're assuming something that's not there.

About Jae's suggestion, even if US does go away now, these same people that are saying, get out, get out of Iraq let them be, will turn around 5 years from now when Iraq is in more chaos than now and say, oh, America just came, invaded after that told them to go fuck themselves.

HOLY SHIT SOME OF YOU PPL ARE TOTALLY FUCKED UP!!
God i just saw this topic rite now and shesh some of u ppl like Jackal, Jae and Riot say the stupidest things. But luckily smart ppl like Indy and Dahl made smart things.

Anyway Jackal view on Islam is completely wrong.

They are trying to say what we do is wrong, because God says it's wrong.

[color=#006699]That's total bullshit, god says eating pork is wrong not to tell Muslims to fucking bomb buildings or make terrorist attacks. Nothing in the western world is wrong except for a few things. (girls, drinking, fucking, and etc.)

I won't lie, I don't really like Muslims. Not necessarily because of terrorist things, just don't like them.

Cant say anything to dat, its ur own point of view but not a very good thing to say.

But what about the Iraqi's dancing in the street, pulling down the Saddam statue, kissing the American troops, giving them food and water, standing in the streets waving and smiling at them as they pass through the town.

Don't believe everything u see on TV dumb ass. You think u see it all on TV but its not even half the reality. There are always haters and lovers. CNN wont show you the people that like Saddam they would only show the ppl that hate Saddam.

They said on the radio that an, so far, unknown group that comes from AL-Qaeda has taken the blame for it, and that it was aimed at the G8. What I find odd about that is that G8 is in Scotland...

I don't know what idiot would fucking take the blame for their this, i completely think Al-Qaeda was innocent. Even 9/11 is a mystery for me. Al-Qaeda is a like a group that anyone can blame on, its like you took a shit in someones pool and just say Al-Qaeda did it and they will believe u. Its fucking stupid how its always Al-Qaeda taking the blame saying its us and they make video tapes and everything.

Its unfortunate, because I would love to see a democracy develop in the Middle East, but It isn't going to happen.

Democracy is not needed in some countries in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia is not democratic and its not bad. Ppl like the kings and everything is fine. Yea countries like Iraq needed democracy but most of the ppl living in Iraq liked Saddam.

Don't say anything bad about anyone's religion its not right. Islam is not not about War and jihad. Even though Jihad is part of the religion and its compulsory, but Jihad is not about bombing America. Jihad is going to war for your country, some extremist take it the wrong way and bomb shit.

Iraq is now liberated now rite?? No its not America is planning everything there they choose the ppl they wanna have as Iraq's Leader, fucked up White washed ppl. Same thing in Afghanistan they took some white-washed-American lover as their leader.

I can even tell all the conspiracies about not 9/11 that would really explain to you that America was in all of it. I really hate America and most of the patriotic fools who love that piece of shit country.

We think it was AL-Queda because A. They have admitted to it and B. there is edvince linking them to it. There really isn't any debate that Al-Queda was linked to 9/11.

I won't lie, I don't really like Muslims. Not necessarily because of terrorist things, just don't like them.

How can you NOT like a person just because of his faith??
I thought you were smarter than that.