Apple Talk Thread

I'm not talking about variation from program to program, I'm talking about how efficient keyboard shortcuts could be between the two operating systems. Renaming a folder with the enter key is quicker than F2 considering the distance your finger must travel to do this. It is quicker to create a new folder with cmd-shift-n than it is to use the mouse+w-f because the logic applies: if you create a new folder, you must name the folder, and so your hand on the mouse must travel back to the keyboard. It is easier to memorize cmd-h to hide a window than it is to memorize alt-space-n to minimize a window. In fact alt-space-n sounds so random and arbitrary, when the "h" clearly represents "h"ide.

Sure, you might think this is all meticulous and petty, but the thing is, as magius said, it all adds up. Every little detail adds up. If you spend an average of 3 seconds to get a task done on Windows compared to an average of 2 seconds on OS X*, it might not look like much, but that's a 3:2 ratio, or a total of 60 minutes spent on Windows when it could be done in 40 minutes on OS X (or 8 hours vs 5.33 hours). A one second difference. In my experience, the difference is much greater, especially when my job demands a lot of open windows and heavy file/folder management.

* On comparable machines.

Renaming a folder with the enter key is quicker than F2 considering the distance your finger must travel to do this

Not really, for me anyway. It's just about the same for me.
Of course it must be noted though that I have a little bit of self-training with proper typing techniques (how ghey), which I now forgot.

Even if the user types with by using only his index fingers it's still basically the same.*

*assuming user is familiar with the key locations

Sure, you might think this is all meticulous and petty, but the thing is, as magius said, it all adds up. Every little detail adds up. If you spend an average of 3 seconds to get a task done on Windows compared to an average of 2 seconds on OS X*, it might not look like much, but that's a 3:2 ratio, or a total of 60 minutes spent on Windows when it could be done in 40 minutes on OS X (or 8 hours vs 5.33 hours). A one second difference. In my experience, the difference is much greater, especially when my job demands a lot of open windows and heavy file/folder management.

I understand it's a clear given for you that a Mac makes your job easier, that makes sense in your situation. But come on, you were the one basically saying to look at the big picture and consider what the vast majority of people actually needs. Well, I'm pretty sure most people don't have your job and really don't have any use for this slightly higher "productivity".

I'm not BigKaboom

Truth.

I want my IMs tabbed

Lies

my web browser tabbed

Actual lies.

I wish my Excel was tabbed

Worksheets, you goon?


So is it basically that OS X > Vista because people who insist on memorizing keyboard shortcuts to save fractions of a second can save a couple more fractions of a second by using them on OS X? I don't accept that this is the case anyway, nor would any data on the subject really be meaningful. Using a computer is not a race.

Joe, I think you mean "ease of use" not "usability." Usability is marketing jargon that has lost its meaning. "Usability experts" are people who get paid to claim that they know better than you. They're not in fact "experts" - they just stumbled upon an effective but largely obnoxious business model.

There's got to be something better to justify the higher price and lesser hardware of Macs. The interface of an OS is only a barrier for a matter of minutes until you acclimate to it. I can use the taskbar flawlessly and most people at my office can as well despite not self-identifying as "tech-savvy." It's not a big issue unless you need something to harp on, and saving a mouse click here and there isn't worth giving up all the advantages that Windows offers.

For the most part, you've conveniently avoided the typical anti-Windows arguments like security, "OS X just works," "all the software and hardware made by the same company = freedom."

Last edited by BigKaboom2 on Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

That continues to be just and only your opinion.

Good darko...even the part you quoted made that blatantly clear.

I'm pretty sure you're happy with what you use, just as I am happy with what I use. There is no way to settle this discussion as it all comes to personal preference in the end.

How many times have I said this in the thread?

Because you don't find something to be useful to you, doesn't mean it isn't useful to others.

Finally! Now stop dismissing "little" applications or "games" as irrelevant to the argument.

Photoshop, Illustrator, After Effects, Corel Painter, as well as QuickTime and other video players don't have a tabbed interface. By working with these apps every day, several hours a day, it's pretty much a given that at some time during the day you'll find yourself with 20+ windows open.

Yeah, well I don't use any of those programs. Especially since I can't draw with a pencil, let alone a mouse. I don't produce anything useful or artistic, I'm an academic.

I create new folders on the desktop at least twice a day. I like things organized so when I download stuff, rip movies, etc. I create separate folders for them. Say, for example, that I download the whole eleven seasons of MASH, I'm gonna want eleven different folders, one for each season.

Okay...I do this too. (If the torrents don't pre-make the folders.) But why are we doing this on the desktop?

That is ridiculous. I work with Photoshop (as well as Illustrator and After Effects) four to five hours a day, and I take breaks in-between those four to five hours (I always leave my apps open). I open other windows and applications while on breaks, tell me how the hell am I supposed to remember, at 5 PM, the order in which I opened the Photoshop windows seven hours before?

I don't know, how do you remember where you live when you leave? Or where the grocery store is? I mean, you've left it for days a time, how the hell are you supposed to remember days later where the grocery store is?

I didn't know I was so special in this regard that I could remember the order of things that stay in that order. (Then again, I do remember the Presidents and their election years and NBA champions in order (for example) without active attempts to memorize these and people think this is some wonderful talent.)

I didn't enjoy OS X the first time I used it, but it grew on me. Once I learned how to utilize the OS to its full potential, I found that I could do things more efficiently.

Wait. Isn't that one of the things being whined about Windows? That you have to "learn how to utilize the OS to its full potential"? Unlike MacOS, which continues to be touted as perfect out of the box?

You might be a Windows guru and find no difference, but usability gurus will tell you that there's more flaws in Vista and that it affects the majority of users, whether they realize it or not.

What usability gurus do or don't tell me doesn't make me more productive.

F2+Enter to rename a folder is pretty awkward when all you need to do is Return+Return.

And hitting "Enter" to rename a folder isn't awkward? Since "Enter" should enter the folder? (Both the keys on this keyboard I'm using right now are labeled "Enter" for example. My normal keyboard is the same way. Nobody understands what "Return" means anymore, even if the little icon for it is still on the Enter.)

customize their OS to improve functionality/usability

Isn't the last page full of people talking about how great it is to customize MacOS?

It should be expected of the OS to take care of the user, not the other way around.

Yeah, I don't want this. I don't want the OS telling me what to do, I want it to do whatever I want. Even if that will break it.

It's not the OS that makes you productive or a time-saver with keyboard shortcuts, it's the user that's productive himself because it's up to the PC/Mac user himself to memorize such shortcuts.

Exactly. On an informal survey of 15 Mac users I know. All of them use the mouse, and only two of them even knew what the Apple key (or command, it will always be Apple key to me for I grew up with it as that...also all but four of the people still have the Apple logo on the key) did. Hell, I'll get similar figures asking non-hardcore PC users if they know ctrl+c and ctrl+v can copy/paste.

These "99% of users" you keep saying will benefit, will not benefit from what you're doing. They'll still use the mouse. They'll still be clicking everywhere. They think the keyboard is for typing, the mouse is for moving around.

It is easier to memorize cmd-h to hide a window than it is to memorize alt-space-n to minimize a window. In fact alt-space-n sounds so random and arbitrary, when the "h" clearly represents "h"ide.

Alt+Space+N I can hit with my hand without stretching any fingers. For Win+H or Ctrl+H, I have to stretch. Not that I'm ever minimizing windows from the keyboard without the need to use the mouse shortly after, or ever minimizing windows anyway.

And how did you naturally just know to hit cmd-h? Instead of cmd-m for "minimize"? Or is cmd-m "maximize"? Is undo cmd-u? For exit do I press cmd-e? Or is cmd-e for "EXTRA BIG ASS TACO"?

If you spend an average of 3 seconds to get a task done on Windows compared to an average of 2 seconds on OS X*, it might not look like much, but that's a 3:2 ratio, or a total of 60 minutes spent on Windows when it could be done in 40 minutes on OS X (or 8 hours vs 5.33 hours).

This is why abstract theory used in this manner is so ridiculed. It is being assumed that the above task is the only one being performed during that 8 hour period. What if said user does need three seconds on Windows and 2 seconds on MacOS to do the above? But because they are more familiar with the Windows version of the various programs interfaces can accomplish the other 90% of tasks twice as fast on Windows? Once you get to people who can perform fully capable in both OSes, the resulting time difference is going to become irrelevant and that person is probably able to do the task in 1.5 seconds in both OSes.

As I continue to argue, the capability of the user will always outweigh any "usability experience design architecture" in any OS. I also continue to not claim that MacOS is poor quality, nor that Windows is superior, merely that MacOS proponents tend to exaggerate the differences. (Such as noted, proclaiming about the greatness of KEYBOARD SHORTCUTS! Something Windows also has. Or by using "studies" by "usability experts" that like all studies ignore real world conditions and never actually prove anything.)

Usability is marketing jargon that has lost its meaning. "Usability experts" are people who get paid to claim that they know better than you. They're not in fact "experts" - they just stumbled upon an effective but largely obnoxious business model.

Marketing jargon? Obnoxious business model? You don't have a clue what usability means. Wow. Whatever, I'm not going to waste my time explaining usability to someone ignorant as you. If you took the time to research usability and how it's important in web site design, maybe you'll understand it's a science, not marketing.

The interface of an OS is only a barrier for a matter of minutes until you acclimate to it.

You still miss the point.

Wait. Isn't that one of the things being whined about Windows? That you have to "learn how to utilize the OS to its full potential"? Unlike MacOS, which continues to be touted as perfect out of the box?

If you don't have prior knowledge of something, you'll have to learn it. It works out of the box, meaning, you don't need to download/purchase a third party anti-virus software for Win XP that seriously needs one.

What usability gurus do or don't tell me doesn't make me more productive.

You're right, but productivity is a result of design. You're more productive chopping a tree down with a chainsaw than with an axe.

Isn't the last page full of people talking about how great it is to customize MacOS?

There's a difference between customizing to enhance appearance than customizing to enhance functionality.

Yeah, I don't want this. I don't want the OS telling me what to do, I want it to do whatever I want. Even if that will break it.

You're missing the point. The OS doesn't tell you what to do, but takes care of you so you can do whatever you want. If the OS doesn't take care of you, you can't do whatever you want because you're fixing the damn OS: crashes, bugs, 3rd party software, patches, customizing functionality, hacking the registry, and so on. The OS isn't meant to play with you, you use an OS to run tools to do work and play.

These "99% of users" you keep saying will benefit, will not benefit from what you're doing. They'll still use the mouse. They'll still be clicking everywhere. They think the keyboard is for typing, the mouse is for moving around.

You have a point there. But again, even for retarded users, it's still beneficial to design a system where things can be found in a shorter amount of time, even if it means using only the mouse.

And how did you naturally just know to hit cmd-h? Instead of cmd-m for "minimize"? Or is cmd-m "maximize"? Is undo cmd-u? For exit do I press cmd-e? Or is cmd-e for "EXTRA BIG ASS TACO"?

I learn about it first, after that, it's easy to memorize because of the association with the letter h. I don't use minimize or maximize, as it's pointless. Cmd-q for quit. Cmd-w to close a window. Cmd-b for bad benji!

What if said user does need three seconds on Windows and 2 seconds on MacOS to do the above?

In terms of tasks, there's everything you can do on both operating systems. If you're proficient in both, great. However, it's always going to be faster to hide a window rather than minimizing (have you tried it? It pauses for a second before animating to the taskbar). It's always going to be easier to find and open a program from the dock than it is to open a program from the desktop/start menu/quick launch/redundant area. It'll always be faster to browse through folders in Finder's column view than a window at a time with Explorer. It's because they're designed to be easily recognizable, utilized, and managed.

Or by using "studies" by "usability experts" that like all studies ignore real world conditions and never actually prove anything.)

Have you actually done usability testing? When we were students, we were asked to participate in a usability test for our city's bus website by finding a specific bus transit number and route. We're smart people, we figured it out, but it wasn't without frustration. We pointed out what was redundant (three links that goes to the same destination), unnecessarily complex (too much information presented, appears overwhelming, needed to take more time scanning for the specific information), what needed to stand out more (hierarchy), or what took too many clicks (page after page after page, loading time after loading time) to reach a destination. These are all variables that affect productivity and time, and usability experts are the ones that re-organizes the system so that it can be as simple as possible without losing functionality. This is the same approach that can be applied to Windows when you contrast it with OS X.

Which remote would you feel more comfortable using?

I don't know, how do you remember where you live when you leave? Or where the grocery store is? I mean, you've left it for days a time, how the hell are you supposed to remember days later where the grocery store is?

I think a fairer analogy would be if you went to the grocery, bought 10, 20 items, went home, and then were able to remember what items you bought and in what order.... not actually remembering how to get to the grocery, which would be more like remembering how to get to your computer, or turning it on. That said, I really don't know how useful this is, usually I just hit a hot corner/expose to show all my windows at once, and click on the one I want.

There's got to be something better to justify the higher price and lesser hardware of Macs. The interface of an OS is only a barrier for a matter of minutes until you acclimate to it. I can use the taskbar flawlessly and most people at my office can as well despite not self-identifying as "tech-savvy." It's not a big issue unless you need something to harp on, and saving a mouse click here and there isn't worth giving up all the advantages that Windows offers.

I am sure that most people at your office experience little problems on windows.... that is because of all the i.t. personnel paid to keep the systems stable. It is a known fact that one way offices and schools which switch over to mac save money is that they don't need as many i.t. personnel (or need to pay tech support for less hours). At home, after give or take a year, in order to keep a windows based machine running at peak performance one must either reformat, defrag, scan for malware/viruses, fix registry, manually update drivers, and make sure none of these things interfere with one another.... all of which takes time to research how to do in an efficient manner, many of which must be done constantly throughout the year, not once a year.

things as simple as keystrokes do make a difference... take a game like starcraft for example, or wow. Obviously you can group multiple units or drink a potion quite easily by moving your hand/mouse and clicking on the group button or potion icon, but of course it is easier to keybind, and in the end it noticeably saves time. Is it seemingly a fraction, a miniscule amount of time? yes.... but so too a grocery store, going with the theme, makes a seemingly miniscule net income on their products... but the numbers add up, and, hopefully, in the end they do make a profit. That said, if you spend the time, you can also manually keybind on a windows machine.... of course, key word: time. Does it also take time to learn the keystrokes on mac? Yes, of course, but I don't have to spend time finding the best program to do so, reading the manual/instructions, perhaps customizing it for my computer, and then manually inputting the strokes themselves... and of course it is not universal, meaning I'd have to do it again on every computer I use if I wanted to use the computer in similar fashion.

Things like this do add up, for example, take an efficient public transit system and inefficient one... how many transfers must I take, are paths logical, are directions clear, are routes convoluted? I would argue that the difference between a mac and a pc is microcosm of such. If I lived in a place with an inefficient transit system, would I eventually learn how to use it efficiently? Of course.... but that only assumes I only ever go to one place, what if I need to find a new place? For sure, I would move/learn faster than I would if I were completely new to the system, but compare that to someone who uses an efficient transit system, and is also accumulated to it, and I hope you see my point. Furthermore, most efficient transit systems, like apple, are relative monopolies in regards to their service, of course their are negatives to this, but the positives are that it allows them to control the system better. If you go to a city which relies on a plethora of private companies to run their transportation system more often than not you will see the epitome of chaos.

Finally! Now stop dismissing "little" applications or "games" as irrelevant to the argument.

I never dismissed them, I just said they're not useful to me, nor most Mac users. I said, however, that while you can actually run those apps on a Mac (even though on your Windows partition), you can't run Mac-only applications on PCs.

Okay...I do this too. (If the torrents don't pre-make the folders.) But why are we doing this on the desktop?

It wouldn't change a thing if we were doing this in another folder.

Yeah, well I don't use any of those programs. Especially since I can't draw with a pencil, let alone a mouse. I don't produce anything useful or artistic, I'm an academic.

I'm pretty sure 80% of Mac users do use them, though.

I don't know, how do you remember where you live when you leave?

Because somehow if you don't remember where you live, you suddenly don't have a place where to sleep for the night, whereas if you don't remember the order in which you opened your windows on your computer, well let's just say it's much less serious.

You use Linux regularly, so you know (or should know) how much functionality having multiple desktops adds to the overall experience.

I'm pretty sure 80% of Mac users do use them, though.

Meaning what to me...which is what we were talking about, why I don't use Mac's.

I never dismissed them, I just said they're not useful to me, nor most Mac users

Why aren't they useful for most Mac users?

You use Linux regularly, so you know (or should know) how much functionality having multiple desktops adds to the overall experience.

Actually, I wind up not using them and jamming everything on the same one. Then I go back to Windows because I can't play any games or use Excel 2007.

I think a fairer analogy would be if you went to the grocery, bought 10, 20 items, went home, and then were able to remember what items you bought and in what order....

How is that a fairer analogy? In that case the groceries are changing location (from the cart to the checkout lane to the bags that the person put them in, then back into my home) whereas the items on my taskbar don't. They stay in the same order until I get rid of them. Using the groceries example it'd be like forgetting which items were in my cupboards even if they are in the same places everytime I open the door.

It'll always be faster to browse through folders in Finder's column view than a window at a time with Explorer.

Eh? My Explorer comes with a tree view. Every single time I open it.

Have you actually done usability testing? [Anecdote.]

I don't know what that has to do with what I said.

Which remote would you feel more comfortable using?

The left one for Tivo, the right one for my Pioneer DVD player.

Does it also take time to learn the keystrokes on mac? Yes, of course, but I don't have to spend time finding the best program to do so, reading the manual/instructions, perhaps customizing it for my computer, and then manually inputting the strokes themselves... and of course it is not universal, meaning I'd have to do it again on every computer I use if I wanted to use the computer in similar fashion.

What's the point you were trying to reach across here?

As said before repeatedly in this thread, Windows has keyboard shortcuts which are the same for all PC's that has the Windows OS.
You don't need a program or customize your computer.

No offense to anyone, but I label people who don't read manuals/instructions as idiots. There's a reason why it's there.
Unless the manual is in a different language which a person doesn't understand then not reading it is excusable.

How is that a fairer analogy? In that case the groceries are changing location (from the cart to the checkout lane to the bags that the person put them in, then back into my home) whereas the items on my taskbar don't. They stay in the same order until I get rid of them. Using the groceries example it'd be like forgetting which items were in my cupboards even if they are in the same places everytime I open the door.

I still think it's a fairer analogy then actually remembering how to get to the grocery. But if you allow me to rephrase - like going to the grocery, choosing 20 items, putting them into your cart, going to the cashier, and before purchasing/moving any items from the cart to anywhere else, remembering which items you bought and in what order. I don't even know why I'm arguing this, I don't even care for what the analogy was attacking, but whatever.

As said before repeatedly in this thread, Windows has keyboard shortcuts which are the same for all PC's that has the Windows OS.
You don't need a program or customize your computer.

Windows has shortcuts, but not as many as Leopard. As said before reportedly in this thread, windows has the option of options, but in order to use them adequately (on par with vanilla mac os), one must customize their operating system manually.

What's the point you were trying to reach across here?

The point is that if I were to make a windows based pc as functional to me as a mac, I would need to spend time.... which I have in the past, and even then I do not find it to be on par or worth the effort. I am not debating that windows doesn't work, not at all, windows does work. What I am debating is that, in my experience, mac os works better, and in order to make vanilla windows work as good as vanilla mac os one must in turn customize it further. I would then argue that the customization of a windows based machine takes more steps, more research, and more tweaking than the customization of a mac. Whichever way you put it, from my perspective, using a mac saves time, which in turn of course increases productivity (or at least offers the potential).

No offense to anyone, but I label people who don't read manuals/instructions as idiots. There's a reason why it's there.
Unless the manual is in a different language which a person doesn't understand then not reading it is excusable.

No offense to anyone, but I label people who choose to read two manuals when they can just as easily read one to accomplish the same task as idiots. Unless the manuals are in different languages and the person is bilingual and wants to practice their translation capabilities in which case it is excusable.

I label people who choose to read two manuals when they can just as easily read one to accomplish the same task as idiots

Who said anything about two manuals? Agree, that's idiotic.

Who said anything about two manuals? Agree, that's idiotic.

The second manual are for bug fixes, malware situations, registry changes, defragging, reformatting, etc.

The things you mentioned are not the "same task".

The things you mentioned are not the "same task".

on a mac they pretty much are...at least in terms of actually doing them (some of which don't even need to be done).

"Pretty much are" the "same task"

No one defrags with the intent of formatting. You go straight to format. Reformatting because of OS decay? That's so Windows 98/ME. Reformatting if it's about malware issues, see below.

bug fixes: Windows Update. It's automatic. No need to worry about that. If it annoys you for some reason you can turn it off.

registry changes: I haven't tweaked the registry seriously in all my years of PC usage to "optimize" my computing experience.
The times I touched the registry is to play around to see if what it does when I see a "tweak tip", which I change immediately back, because it has no use to me mostly.

malware situations: already argued previously in this thread (OS security). I don't want to chase that tail again.

If you're referring about maintenance, thus the "same task", see all above. You don't need a "second manual", with the exception of malware affecting your PC.


I quote myself again:

Apples and oranges I say.

I quote myself again:

Apples and oranges I say.

I agree. In Vista, I have to keep having to ctrl-drag a file to a new folder so I can make a new copy, and I get a stupid Internet Explorer dialog box every single time that prompts: "Do you want to move or copy files from this zone?" Like, what the fuck. First, saying either move or copy isn't telling me if I am making a copy and I could be accidentally moving the file. Secondly, why is there a dialog box? It's common sense that if someone is moving a file to a new folder, usually the answer is always "Yes," making the prompt incredibly redundant. In OS X, if I just drag a file to another folder, it instantaneously makes a new copy. No keyboard combination. No dialog box. Especially not an Internet Explorer dialog box. Holy crap.

On a more related note, I got myself the new Apple keyboard and it exceeded my expectations. The slim keys really makes it a joy to type. The key response is excellent and not having to press down too far actually speeds up my typing a bit since I can press in a shorter distance. Don't believe me? Others are saying the same thing, and myself having tried it out for a week now, it really is a well designed keyboard.

I recently got the wireless aluminum keyboard since I spilled orange juice on the wired one I had before. So far, I prefer the wired version, the wireless one is missing the whole right part of the keyboard.

"Pretty much are" the "same task"

No one defrags with the intent of formatting. You go straight to format. Reformatting because of OS decay? That's so Windows 98/ME. Reformatting if it's about malware issues, see below.

bug fixes: Windows Update. It's automatic. No need to worry about that. If it annoys you for some reason you can turn it off.

registry changes: I haven't tweaked the registry seriously in all my years of PC usage to "optimize" my computing experience.
The times I touched the registry is to play around to see if what it does when I see a "tweak tip", which I change immediately back, because it has no use to me mostly.

malware situations: already argued previously in this thread (OS security). I don't want to chase that tail again.

If you're referring about maintenance, thus the "same task", see all above. You don't need a "second manual", with the exception of malware affecting your PC.


I quote myself again:

Apples and oranges I say.

"Pretty much are" the "same task"

No one defrags with the intent of formatting. You go straight to format. Reformatting because of OS decay? That's so Windows 98/ME. Reformatting if it's about malware issues, see below.

bug fixes: Windows Update. It's automatic. No need to worry about that. If it annoys you for some reason you can turn it off.

registry changes: I haven't tweaked the registry seriously in all my years of PC usage to "optimize" my computing experience.
The times I touched the registry is to play around to see if what it does when I see a "tweak tip", which I change immediately back, because it has no use to me mostly.

If I do not need to reformat, defrag, or scan for viruses/malware is it correct to say I don't need a manual at all?

malware situations: already argued previously in this thread (OS security). I don't want to chase that tail again.

If you're referring about maintenance, thus the "same task", see all above. You don't need a "second manual", with the exception of malware affecting your PC.


I quote myself again:

Apples and oranges I say.

on a mac they pretty much are...at least in terms of actually doing them (some of which don't even need to be done).

I do not defrag, I do not reformat, I do not scan for viruses, I do not scan for malware, and I do not fix my registry...my mac runs the same a little more than a year after I bought it. All I do is correct disk permissions/repair which can both be found in disk utility (comes with mac) every once in awhile... takes rarely more than a minute. Sometimes I run cocktail to manually run mac's built in system maintenance (which I have never encountered, or has never slowed my computer down if I have)... but I think that is more of a psychological thing coming from a windows background.

You need a manual for each of those things if you have never done any of those things before on a pc (perhaps you've done them enough that you don't need them anymore, but initially you did), it also takes a longer time for each task to actually finish, and you need to spend time, perhaps money, looking for a scanning solution, firewall solution, and malware solution... as well as perhaps an outsource defragmentation tool.

Don't be silly, no one spends money on software using the internets.

You need a manual for each of those things if you have never done any of those things before on a pc (perhaps you've done them enough that you don't need them anymore, but initially you did)

I didn't need a manual. I just initially relied on pop-up help that tell what a specific option does. Or used that " " near the minimize-restore-exit icons at the top right.
Of course it requires a little bit of computer literacy, but anyone who uses a computer, PC or Mac otherwise, requires a little bit of knowldge with the applications they use.
Learning based on experience and looking up about something just came later.

it also takes a longer time for each task to actually finish, and you need to spend time, perhaps money, looking for a scanning solution, firewall solution, and malware solution... as well as perhaps an outsource defragmentation tool.

I don't need to spend time. I have something to do so I let the PC do those things while I'm away doing something.

spend money on those? - LOLZ

Going back to Vista's advertising campaign. This is one I just came across: http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/

And "findings:" http://www.mojaveexperiment.com/facts/

You should be a private investigator Cry. WHAT A SCOOP!

??

Microsoft announced plans to do a large marketing campaign to rival Apple's and I posted a relevant link. It'd help if you actually read a thread instead of doing what you do best, being a troll.

WOW ME NO READ WHY ME DUMB 4 THANX CRY.

I've read this thread (and lol'd at you many times "the quality of mac's are so much better, thats why you should spend 3 times more on one), so I don't know why you think I'm trolling. I guess you're desperate for any kind of rebuttal "O0O LOOK MAFFEW = TROLL"

ohohoho